CNBC: At $4.3 Trillion, Bailout Costs Exceed WWII

by: Paul Rosenberg

Tue Nov 18, 2008 at 11:00


According to an analysis by CNBC, "Financial Crisis Tab Already In The Trillions" , the financial bailout tab already stands at $4.28 trillion and counting.  That's about 20 times the cost of the Louisiana Purchase (adjusted for inflation), and more than anything else CNBC could come up with, including World War II, which cost $3.6 trillion by their estimate.  They have a slideshow of  "Big Budget Events" here.

However, they overlooked the obvious: our spending on nuclear weapons from World War II forward was estimated at $5.5 trillion in a Brookings Institute Study completed in 1998 (summarized most recently here).  Adjusted for inflation, that's roughly $7.2 trillion in 2007 dollars.  Total military spending over this same time period amounted to $22.8 trillion.   Still, that's $22.8 trillion over half a century.  Bush ran up $4.28 trillion in a matter of months.

The numbers are so staggeringly big that one really does have to use these sorts of historical comparisons just to begin to grasp the enormity of what's going on right in front of us, while the political class continues to pretend that the money being spent isn't really real, unlike, say, money to pay for health care or education.

Paul Rosenberg :: CNBC: At $4.3 Trillion, Bailout Costs Exceed WWII
CNBC:

Not only is it a astronomical amount of money, its' a complicated cocktail of budgeted dollars, actual spending, guarantees, loans, swaps and other market mechanisms by the Federal Reserve, the Treasury and other offices of government taken over roughly the last year, based on government data and new releases. Strictly speaking, not every cent is directed a result of what's called the financial crisis, but it arguably related to it.

Here's CNBC's breakdown of how the money has been spent:

 Financial Crisis Balance Sheet
Government EntitySum in Billions
of Dollars
Federal Reserve 
(TAF) Term Auction Facility900
Discount Window Lending 
Commercial Banks99.2
Investment Banks56.7
Loans to buy ABCP76.5
AIG112.5
Bear Stearns29.5
(TSLF) Term Securities Lending Facility225
Swap Lines613
(MMIFF) Money Market Investor Funding Facility540
Commercial Paper Funding Facility257
(TARP) Treasury Asset Relief Program700
Other: 
Automakers25
(FHA) Federal Housing Administration300
Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac350
Total4284.5
Note: Figures as of Nov. 13, 2008

And here's the summary of items presented in their slideshow:

Big Budget Events
ProjectOriginal Cost: Inflation Adjusted
Cost:
Hoover Dam$49 million $782 million
Panama Canal  $375 million $7.9 billion
Gulf War I $61 billion $98 billion
Marshall Plan $12.7 billion $115.3 billion
Louisiana Purchase $15 million $217 billion
Race to the Moon $36.4 billion $237 billion
Savings & Loan Crisis$153 billion $256 billion
Korean War $54 billion $454 billion
The New Deal$32 billion (Est) $500 billion (Est)
Gulf War II / War on Terror $551 billion $597 billion  *
Vietnam War $111 billion $698 billion
NASA (Cumulative) $416.7 billion $851.2 billion
World War II $288 billion $3.6 trillion
# Nuclear Weaponry -- $7.2 trillion
# Cold War Military -- $22.8 trillion
* Nobel Laureate Joseph Stiglitz places this figure much higher, at $3 trillion and rising, including all future incurred costs.

# Added by me. Figures reported as inflation-adjusted dollars in 1996, adjusted to 2007 dollars.

It's telling that the only spending projects that actually do compare with the bailout costs, aside from World War II, are those associated with Cold War military spending, which CNBC did not think to include.  It's not just the size of such expenditures that commends them to our intention, but also the fear-based lack of rationality such spending entailed.  One get a feel for that irrationality from a few excerpts from an issue brief, "The Costs of U.S. Nuclear Weapons", written by Stephen I. Schwartz and published this October, ten years after the original Brookings Institute study it was based on.

What Did the United States Spend?

From 1940-1996, the United States spent a minimum of $5.5 trillion on its nuclear weapons program.[2] The lack of data for some programs and the difficulty of segregating costs for programs that had both nuclear and conventional roles mean that in all likelihood the actual figure is higher. This figure does not include $320 billion in estimated future-year costs for storing and disposing of more than five decades' worth of accumulated toxic and radioactive wastes and $20 billion for dismantling nuclear weapons systems and disposing of surplus nuclear materials. When those amounts are factored in, the total incurred costs of the U.S. nuclear weapons program exceed $5.8 trillion.[3]

Of the $5.8 trillion, just seven percent ($409 billion) was spent on developing, testing, and building the actual bombs and warheads. To make those weapons usable by deploying them aboard aircraft, missiles, submarines, and a variety of other delivery systems consumed 56 percent of the total ($3.2 trillion). Another $831 billion (14 percent) was spent on command, control, communications, and intelligence systems dedicated to nuclear weapons. The United States also spent $937 billion (16 percent) on various means of defending against nuclear attack, principally air defense, missile defense, antisubmarine warfare, and civil defense....

Note how relatively little was spent directly on the weapons themselves, yet  how spending ballooned based on that core commitment.  The excess spending here was far, far beyond the already exorbitant phenomena of "cost over-runs," and was quite typical of the failure to engage in systematic thinking.

More from the issue brief:

What Was Necessary?

Contrary to official pronouncements by military and political leaders over the years, the requirements for nuclear deterrence and warfighting strategies were largely subjective and inherently undefinable. When such requirements were combined with a lack of knowledge about the current or cumulative cost of the nuclear weapons program, inadequate intelligence about and fear of the capabilities and intentions of U.S. adversaries (principally the Soviet Union), and a blanket of secrecy that kept the public, the news media, and even some policymakers in the dark, all the ingredients for a largely unconstrained competition were present.

At one end of the deterrence spectrum, one can make an argument for achieving deterrence with just a few warheads or even with the potential to construct and deploy them (e.g., North Korea). At the other are the statements by General James Gavin, head of Army research and development, who testified before Congress in 1956 and 1957 and requested 151,000 nuclear warheads just for the Army (a figure justified by plans envisioning the use of as many as 423 warheads in a single day of "intense combat")...

What was the "right" number? Given the subjective nature of the process, there can be no single figure. However, over the years, a number of knowledgeable individuals have tried to quantify a minimum nuclear requirement and it is worth considering the results of some of their efforts.

In 1957, Admiral Arleigh Burke, then the chief of naval operations, estimated that 720 warheads aboard 45 Polaris submarines were sufficient to achieve deterrence. This figure took into account the fact that some weapons would not work and that some would be destroyed in a Soviet attack (Burke believed that just 232 warheads were required to destroy the Soviet Union).[7] At the time Burke made this estimate, the U.S. arsenal already held six times as many warheads.

Several years later, in 1960, General Maxwell Taylor, former Army chief of staff and future chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, wrote that "a few hundred reliable and accurate missiles" (armed with a few hundred warheads) and supplemented by a small number of bombers was adequate to deter the Soviet Union.[8] Yet by this time the United States had some 7,000 strategic nuclear warheads.

In short, free from political pressures, experts already concluded we had far more nuclear weapons than we needed as far back as the 1950s.  Decades of astronomical, but utterly useless spending was to follow, along with all sorts of nonsense about traitorous liberal Democrats being "soft" on defense.

And we're still at it.  Heaven forbid we should stop.  That would not be bipartisan of us.  It would be "polarizing", not to say, "extremist."

We can't have that!


Tags: , (All Tags)
Print Friendly View Send As Email
Disagree with CNBCs linking of all of these actions together (0.00 / 0)
Some maybe considered a "bailout", but others like AIG are actually a buyout and still others are loans. A bailout to me means we will not get the money back. Whereas other government actions like buyouts means that we will some, most, all or more than the money we spent back. This is a very big difference in understanding what this means for the American people and what it means for the ability to have money for paying off debt and moving progressive FDR programs like healthcare reform foreward.

Yes And No (0.00 / 0)
As is often the case, the term "bailout" has different meanings in different contexts.  You can bail someone out with a loan.  Indeed, this gets at the root meaning of the term--to bail someone out of jail.

It's certainly true that there are important distinctions in how these different instruments work.  But all of them are indicative of goverment willingness to help out fat cats, and provide ooodles of money for them when it is needed.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I disagree with your analysis (0.00 / 0)
The key issue is not whether it "helps" out the fat cats. What that means in an economy like this I m not sure. If the argument is over executive pay, bonuses , etc fine. But if the argument is something else then I m lost to understand the meaning here. My concern with the use of bailout is as I describe below. It waters down the meaning so people do not know that a) its not just a give a way b) people are going to start calling all government action- even those are a sensible- bailout and c) this will be helped by media that does not accurately explain that in one case we get our money back and in another (a true bailout) we do not. This may not be definitionally how it was used prior to the melt down,b ut its clear for the meltdown, the main component is whether the bailoout means we won't see our money back.

[ Parent ]
When the Treasury Bubble bursts (4.00 / 1)
it won't be that large adjusted for inflation...

Ah, but financiers and the war machine can't be denied... (0.00 / 0)
We always have plenty of cash for bombs, prisons, and wall street.  Its those damned pesky starving babies causing all the problems. "Gimme, gimme, gimme!

Scenario #1:  100 Percent Reduction in Detroit Three U.S. Operations

In economic terms, the rapid termination of Detroit Three U.S. operations in 2009 would
reduce U.S. personal income by over $150.7 billion in the first year, and generate a total loss of $398.2 billion over the course of three years. The impact of this personal income loss on fiscal government operations at the local, state and federal levels include an increase in transfer payments, a reduction in social security receipts and personal income taxes paid. The net impact of all three of these categories is negative on the government balance sheet, resulting in a loss to the government of $60.1 billion in 2009, $54.3 billion in 2010, and $42.0 billion in 2011-a total government tax loss of over $156.4 billion over three year.

--snip--

The model represents only the impacts resulting from the initial contraction of the Detroit Three within the U.S. economy. It is reasonable to expect that a permanent contraction in the U.S. auto industry would negatively impact the auto industries of Canada and Mexico, since producers in these regions rely heavily upon U.S.-produced parts and components. This interdependency of the NAFTA automotive producers means that the total economic impacts presented here underestimate the full impact of the scenarios. The decline of Detroit Three production in Canada and Mexico would result in further U.S. losses in employment, income, and government revenues. Finally, the bankruptcy of any of the Detroit automakers may have serious implications for their pension funds
and the level of obligations of the Pension Benefit Guarantee Corporation, as well as funding of the nation's health care system. The Detroit Three are directly and indirectly responsible for funding the health care of 2 million employees, retirees, and dependents of their own companies and their suppliers.

So Obama and Dems whip 780 billion to WS no strings attached and then make the union and autos grovel for a measly 25.


One thing stands out for me...... (4.00 / 3)
The auto companies are asking for a loan (not bailout) and the amount looks really small when looking at that table. They actually do provide millions of jobs directly and indirectly and have thousands of retirees, as well as car owners depending on their existence. I understand being put off by Detroit's poor management, but in the grand scheme of things I thing I would lend them the money.

Many of the numbers listed are not bailouts (0.00 / 0)
I think that term is now being watered down to mean any government action at all. That's not a good development because of its impact on public perception of what is actually happening.  

[ Parent ]
If Someone Gets In Trouble, And You Give Them Money, That's A Bailout (0.00 / 0)
It's really not that complicated, or that nefarious.

In this case, what's actually being done is more nefarious than the language being used.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Not sure what you mean.... (0.00 / 0)
You say:

If Someone Gets In Trouble, And You GIVE Them Money, That's A Bailout

If I own a small business and I have a cash flow problem so I go to the bank and take out a loan - it is called a loan, not a bailout. Are you saying everything being done is a bailout? If so, I just do not agree. If it is a loan that we can reasonably assume it will be paid back, then it is not a bailout by my definition.


[ Parent ]
exactly right (0.00 / 0)
It seems what paul is really trying to say can be found below where he wants to tie other conditions  outside of repayment to the loans and buyouts? I am not sure because reading this is a little confusing from a business standpoint.

[ Parent ]
A Loan Under Normal Circumstances =/= "A Bailout" (0.00 / 0)
But a loan under extraordinary circumstances, when you can't get a normal loan to meet your needs, that qualifies as a bailout.

This isn't me talking here.  This is how people have used the term for a very long time.

It just seems silly to try to fight the continued use of a term that's been used this same way for a long, long time.  You want to fight the manipulations that Bruh is pointing to, fine.  So do I.  But you don't do it by trying to change existing usage and pretending that's not what you're doing.  You use existing understandings as much as possible.

As in: "Sure, I'll bail you out this time.  But you've got to make some changes so that this doesn't happen again, and we've got to have a plan so that I can get repaid."  

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
The key element thatyou keep ignoring (0.00 / 0)
is whether or not when one is arguing cost (which is what you are doing) its accurate to say that this money is going into a bottomless pit versus whether we will see the money back. Saying that it will cost us 4 trillion , but ignoring we will get most of that back, is the problem. Since its not really 4 trillion if that is the case. Unless you are arguing they will not pay it back- its not a good way to help people understand whats happening. You are arguing different things. You first argue it will cost us 4 trillion, but do not seem to make it clear that it will not. Then when pushed, you make it clear that really what it is about are the strings you want attached even to things that are going to be paid back. That's a diffrent conversation than whether this will utlimately cost us 4 trillion.

[ Parent ]
We Get Money Back From All Expenditures (0.00 / 0)
Even the ludicrous waste of nuclear overkill kept people working who then turned around and paid income taxes, Social Security, etc.

The point of this isn't to do a profound cost-benefit analysis.  It's simply to put things into a perspective in terms of magnitude that people can understand.  It's a way of answering the question, "How much money are we talking about?" in a way that can be somewhat meaningful to people:  "More money than WWII cost."

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Strategically your tactic is a mistake (0.00 / 0)
because our side depends on people not perceiving of us as like the other side. Even if you are technically right, I think the long term perception if people do not see it the way you do is the problem. It is easier to just say- if we are going to do this, then it should be on our terms than to imply the cost is something it may not be.

[ Parent ]
You're Talking As If This Was My Story (0.00 / 0)
It's not.  This is CNBC saying it.

And, really, the whole point of this is to give people an idea of the magnitude of what we're talking about.  You're the one who seems to be reading a whole lot more into it than I am.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Yes, but CNBC is trying to sell ads , not the truth (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
"Bridge Loans" to Nowhere (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
I Would Loan Them The Money--ON CONDITIONS (4.00 / 1)
Numer one is that they would agree to stop fighting environmental regulations, and start building much more enviornmentally friendly vehicles.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
I have no problem with those conditions (0.00 / 0)
Sounds good to me. Maybe even add some more, but the amount is just pennies on the dollar (when compared to what is already being done for others - many of which are greedy republicans) with real potential to help some people on mainstreet too.

[ Parent ]
uhm that would almost certainly be part of it (0.00 / 0)
the argument is that this is one of the reasons we can not compete with the Japanese cars, etc. I don't see the loan as a blank check or as just a loan.

[ Parent ]
Another big lie.... (0.00 / 0)

Once again, the hypocrisy of our national energy policy is laid bare. We say we want to wean ourselves of oil to save the planet and punish the oil tyrants, but we want someone else to pay the tab.

Instead of exploring a floating gasoline tax that would keep the pump price at the level where it impacts use -- somewhere above $3.50 a gallon if this year's experience is a guide -- attention is turning back to the auto industry. Even as they lay dying, Detroit's automakers are being pressured to accept more costly fuel economy mandates in exchange for a government lifeline.

Politicians don't want to accept the link between conservation and cost.

For 30 years, the federal government has imposed fuel economy rules on automakers. And yet gasoline usage rose steadily as consumers took advantage of the savings to buy bigger vehicles and drive them more miles.

It wasn't until this year, when gasoline prices nearly doubled in the span of a few months, that consumer behavior was noticeably affected.

Detroit's automakers are now all-in on fuel efficiency. They've mortgaged their future to prepare to build the cars the government says America must have. Their survival depends on consumers choosing those cars.

But if gasoline remains below $2 a gallon for very long, the bet the automakers made at the insistence of the government will be lost.

Everything is their fault!  Consumers are as pure as the driven snow and so is US energy policy.  


[ Parent ]
Smart leadership (4.00 / 1)
FDR fought WWII and launched the New Deal combined for about the same cost (inflation adjusted no less) that Bush and those "fiscally conservative" Bush Republicans have managed to waste in just a few months for what?  Smart management by FDR.  

Jefferson bought the LA Purchase for a relative pittance hoodwinking both Napoleon and Congress at the same time.  Definitely smarts.

The Marshall Plan rebuilt Europe and did more to prevent WWIII than all that Cold War or Nuclear spending.  Smart.

Bush, as mentioned above, squandered his trillions for no discernible benefit from either the Iraq War or the Bailout.  Stupid.

AIG, an insurance company for God'sd sake) swallows up 4 times what the Big 3 auto makers  want and who gets lambasted daily for poor management on TV every day?  The guys throwing the parties with our money or the union workers?  Another dose of stupid.

Citibank gets their money and then cuts 53,000 jobs.  Did they think to cut the bonusses?  Stupid and arrogant.

Sorry, these actions are linked.  It's the use of our money.  Wall Street isn't 20 times as smart or 10 times as valuable as everything else.  The banks and brokerages, deal makers and scam artists have skimmed off too much of the cream over the last 20 years.  Don't give them other peole's milk, too.

Swesar, swear. Cuss, cuss.  Well, you know how I feel.


The complaints about this analysis (0.00 / 0)
posted above I think reflect a mistrust that this analysis is an apples-to-apples comparison. CNBC doesn't seem to provide methodology for their cost estimates of any of the other big budget events, so it's not entirely clear whether all of the various sorts of liabilities listed in the financial crisis balance sheet are also included in the cost estimates of previous big budget events.

I also think the comparison in terms of inflation-adjusted dollars is the wrong one. I'd rather see a comparison as percent of GDP.

In terms of dealing with the financial crisis as a whole, the pertinent comparison I think would include the New Deal, much of WWII spending, and whatever Hoover and pre-New Deal Roosevelt spending was done to (try to) prop up the economy as the depression hit. That's what it cost to pull the country out of the depression. We should hope that the current crisis doesn't require as much government spending, but that's the number we should be prepared to spend if necessary.

As for the various bailouts that have been executed over the last year, there are clearly scenarios under which that money could have been spent more wisely (for instance, there's a decent argument to be made that if Lehman had been bailed out, the $700 billion request would not yet have come up - and Obama might have had a harder time winning). A base-level question, though, is: Do you think we would be better off now and over the next 2 years without the succession of bailouts over the past year? Is the disagreement solely about whether some of this money should have been "spent" more effectively, or is there disagreement about whether this much money should be spent at all?


DIY (0.00 / 0)
I also think the comparison in terms of inflation-adjusted dollars is the wrong one. I'd rather see a comparison as percent of GDP.

Knock yourself out.  No one's stopping you.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I'm no economist (0.00 / 0)
so I'm not going to pretend to figure out what a true apples-to-apples comparison would be. CNBC's may be one - but they didn't give sufficient information to reassure that it is.

As one potential comparison, according to the Department of Commerce, Bureau of Economic Analysis the government share of GDP grew to about 70% during the WWII years. Does that mean that current "Government consumption expenditures and gross investment" would have to grow to $8 trillion to be comparable? I don't know - I'll wait for one of the economics blogs to address this.


[ Parent ]
Don't Forget (0.00 / 0)
In WWII, we were still recovering from the Great Depression. We had had strong growth under FDR overall, but we were starting from such a deep hole that it wasn't until something like 1944 before we reached the point of a full recover compared to pre-Crash levels.

So, I would say that the answer is "there is no single right way to make comparisons."  This is really just a hueristic to help people get a good sense of how big a government effort this is.  There only becomes a "right" way to draw comparisons once you have a more narrowly defined purpose in mind.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Fair enough (0.00 / 0)
But your comparison with the "fear-based lack of rationality" of cold war spending implies that you believe the government bailout is unnecessarily large, and your reference to the CNBC huge number then becomes a rhetorical device, with the strong implication that the bailout is just an outlandish gift to people who don't deserve it and don't need it.

That they don't deserve it is something I think all progressives agree about. That they don't need it is debatable. In WWII we were still recovering from the Great Depression. It seems that one of the reasons Krugman has come down on the side of all the bailout actions so far is that he hopes to prevent us from waiting a decade to recover from a possible depression in the near future. If we really are facing an economic crisis of depression magnitude, then we really do need spending on the scale of WWII spending to get us out. The CNBC report makes an argument that the government bailouts already exceed the cost of WWII - something that my gut says is a false comparison. If CNBC is right, then we're in for a depression far bigger than the great depression and we should pretty much be arguing for the government to spend money as fast as possible in order to regain a functioning economy - I'd much rather the government bailout the undeserving bankers now than spend that money fighting WWIII in ten years.


[ Parent ]
USER MENU

Open Left Campaigns

SEARCH

   

Advanced Search

QUICK HITS
STATE BLOGS
Powered by: SoapBlox