Curses, Foiled Again? Hardly

by: Chris Bowers

Tue Nov 18, 2008 at 16:15


I'm pretty disappointed at the outcome over the Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs leadership fight. Denying Lieberman the chair would have been a sign that the Senate Democratic caucus was willing to stand up for itself over the next two years, but instead we were given another sign that the legislative branch no longer matters that much in the United States.

However, given the focus on how this vote means that "the left has been foiled again," I want to push back against the idea that the last two weeks has not somehow been a string of defeats for progressives. There have been setbacks, such as today's Lieberman vote, but there have also been real victories. In the extended entry, I accentuate the positive.

Chris Bowers :: Curses, Foiled Again? Hardly
Here are some good things that have happened over the last fourteen days:

  • The leadership of the U.S. House has moved to the left. At first, I was pretty disappointed with Rahm Emanuel becoming Chief of Staff. However, it seems increasingly clear that removing Emanuel from the House has resulted in a net gain for progressive leadership in that chamber. Given that Obama probably would have picked someone in Rahm Emanuel's mold even if he did not select Emanuel himself, this means our choices were either no Rahm Emanuel in the House leadership plus Rahm Emanuel temporarily serving as Chief of Staff, or Rahm Emanuel in the House leadership plus Rahm Emanuel clone temporarily serving as Chief of Staff. On net, I will take the former, and I am currently leaning toward the move as a net gain for progressives. If the left was "foiled" again, then I wonder why so many center-right House Democrats are feeling unhappy.

  • Lieberman did not get off scot-free: Keep in mind that Lieberman was punished, that 13 Senate Democrats voted to punish him even more, and that he probably would have been stripped of his full committee chair entirely were it not for Obama. While what happened wasn't the punishment that Lieberman deserved, I'm with Matt on feeling good about the thirteen independent minded Senate progressives who seem to have emerged. That may not seem like much, but thirteen independently minded, Democratic progressives is actually a lot better off than we were six years ago when Feingold might have been the only one.

  • A no residual forces agreement was signed in Iraq. Here is the actual text of Article 24 of the agreement:

    1- All U.S. forces must withdraw from all Iraqi territories no later than December 31st 2011.

    2- All U.S. combat forces must withdraw from all cities, towns, and villages as soon as the Iraqi forces take over the full security responsibility in them. The U.S. withdrawal from these areas shall take place no later than June 30th, 2009

    As I had hoped, this is indeed a no residual forces agreement. The differentiation between "all U.S. forces" in section one and "all U.S. combat forces" in section two make that clear. The "all forces" and "all combat forces" was a line that most Democratic candidates tried to blur back in 2007. Those following the issue closely were aware that "all forces" actually meant "no residual force" and "all combat forces" meant "residual force." So, this agreement means an end to all residual American military presence in Iraq by December 31st, 2011 at the latest. This is just an utterly massive progressive victory. The key is that it was engineered by the Iraqi government, rather than Democratic Party leadership. This gets to David's point earlier today about how the progressive movement needs to focus on organizing other than as an assistant to the Democratic Party's electoral efforts. Progressive change can happen, as long as we look

Now, I'm not going to argue that everything is all smiles und sunshine. The fifty-state strategy is in real peril, corporate bailouts continue apace, and neither Senate Democrats nor the Obama administration appear poised to be progressive paragons over the next two years. However, even in these areas, the fifty-state strategy might be revived, the bailouts are partly socialist nationalizations and thus quite left-wing, and the new bosses in the White House and the Senate will be a hell of a lot better than what we have had for the last fourteen years. My point is that progress is being made, and all is not lost. We are winning some of these fights so, and at least making progress in others. For crying out loud, we won a major policy fight in Iraq even though it was opposed by the Bush administration, the Democratic congressional leadership, and the incoming Democratic President. If that alone isn't a hopeful sign, I don't know what is.


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Well, a distinction (4.00 / 5)
should be drawn between things that are good for the left and victories of the left. The departure of Rahm from the house is a good thing but it's not as if anyone on the left helped to bring it about.

I'll be looking at 2 issues to see if Obama is at all responsive to the left: employee free choice--labor's number one priority--and spying issues.

President-elect Barack Obama will face a series of early decisions on domestic spying that will test his administration's views on presidential power and civil liberties.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11...


I admit we aren't (4.00 / 1)
doing too badly, considering, but it seems like a bit of a stretch to say
...we won a major policy fight in Iraq...

since last time I checked, American progressives don't have much of a voice in the Iraqi Parliament.  Admittedly, it shows that we've had reality on our side (which is always preferable to the alternative), but claiming we had a hand in this victory (and it is undoubtedly that) is like saying that doing a rain dance helped make it rain.    


Where did I claim that? (0.00 / 0)
The post clearly says that the victory was engineered by the Iraqi government, not American progressives.

[ Parent ]
So you're saying (0.00 / 0)
that progressives did a rain dance and in spite of that it eventually rained, and that's a progressive victory.

[ Parent ]
For crying out loud (0.00 / 0)
What I am saying is that the war will end, and there will be no residual American military presence in Iraq. And yes, that is a progressive victory, no matter who was responsible for it.

Progressives win when progressive things happen. No matter the cause, a progressive thing just happened, and thus it is a progressive victory.


[ Parent ]
Sorry I had to run (0.00 / 0)
but this was the part that prompted my comment...
We are winning some of these fights so, and at least making progress in others. For crying out loud, we won a major policy fight in Iraq even though it was opposed by the Bush administration...

Although, in retrospect, I can see how "we won" isn't necessarily meant to be we personally did the "winning", in much the same way that one could claim that "we won" if a local sports team you support wins their championship.

Either way, reality intruded on the non-progressive position and precluded any other solution they may have wanted.


[ Parent ]
But isn't it likely that the sudden breakthrough was partially (4.00 / 1)
made possible by Obama being elected?  He pledged to remove troops from Iraq within 16 months, here we have a solid time table for complete withdrawal suddenly showing up where before it was something absolutely impossible to even bring up, let alone push through.

Two parts to the equation:

1. The Bush administration resisted a firm time table for withdrawal all along, attacked those who would even suggest a time table as dangerous traitors.  The sudden drop of the administration's resistance to any time tables, and thus the agreement for complete withdrawal being reached, seems related to the election results.  They know that Obama would have immediately moved to set withdrawal from Iraq in motion, so instead of letting him have that they pre-empted with a sudden reversal of long standing policy.  

2. The Iraqi government likewise is obviously aware of the election result.  Instead of letting Obama impose a 16 month time table come January on his own terms it is possible, perhaps likely, that the Iraqi government felt that they should ask for a strict timetable, but one that gave a little extra time -- end of 2011 is actually 24 months from Jan. 2009 forward, whereas Obama has campaigned on 16 months as a realistic time table.   The language of this agreement leaves open the possibility for an addendum to withdraw even sooner.

While the agreement was not engineered by the Democratic party or Progressives, it seems clear that the election played a major role here.  Specifically, the Bush administration refused to let Obama and the Democratic party engineer such an agreement and get credit for it.  


[ Parent ]
Iraq (0.00 / 0)
"But isn't it likely that the sudden breakthrough was made possible by Obama being elected?"

I don't think there's any doubt about that.  Remember, McCain wanted to stay in Iraq for 100 years.


[ Parent ]
Biggest of all (4.00 / 12)
Four Blue Dogs defeated in the general; net gain for the rest of the caucus 20+.  No net gain for the Dogs. Unlike in 2006 when we elected 30 Democrats but half were those stinking Blue Dogs.

Recommended for... (0.00 / 0)
definitely being worthy of mention, though I'm undecided as to which qualifies as the biggest victory.

[ Parent ]
Blue Dogs (4.00 / 1)
Also, today's Blue Dogs aren't nearly as conservative as Dixiecrats that where still around in Clinton's early days.

We'll definitely see what center-left looks like over the next few years; just think more center and less left.


[ Parent ]
To add: (4.00 / 2)
Close Gitmo; repeal Bush Exec. orders and Obama's agency review teams; climate change and health care emphasis in rhetoric.


John McCain won't insure children

How does anybody think they would feel today if............ (4.00 / 1)
McCain/Palin had won?

We really are back in 1992 now! (0.00 / 0)
"accept how crappy the Democrats are, at least they are NOT republicans!"

[ Parent ]
I got one (4.00 / 2)
We let Obama and Senate Democrats triangulate off us, thus giving huge boners to the chattering class. Everybody loves chattering boners.

Conduct your own interview of Sarah Palin!

If I am reading Obama right, he is concentrating on a list of priorities (4.00 / 2)
And things that are not part of those priorities, he simply won't expend a lot of capital on.

Priorities:

1. Job growth
2. Energy infrastructure
3. Reduce global warming
4. Health care
5. Larger mideast situation (Iraq/Afghanistan/Pakistan/neutralizing Al Queda)
6. Good government (in which I add rolling back egregious executive orders, as well as rolling back torture/closing Guantanamo.)

In this sense - Joe Lieberman is viewed as a gamble that will support the above issues, except for #5.

Same with Clinton, Holder.  From this view, they make sense.


I think that's right (4.00 / 1)
And the best way to look at Obama's role in the Lieberman deal is in terms of Obama's self-interest. Obama gains nothing if Lieberman is kicked out of the caucus, and Lieberman might be lost on some important votes regarding these 6 issues. By keeping Lieberman in the caucus, he might be more likely to work for these 6 issues, and defend/work on behalf of Obama himself.

The only reason those are mights instead of woulds is that loyalty and integrity are clearly not values in Lieberman's unctuous morality. Still, those mights are better than nothing, and kicking Lieberman out wouldn't have helped Obama in any way.


[ Parent ]
sigh (4.00 / 3)
kicking Lieberman out wouldn't have helped Obama in any way.

No one was fighting to have him kicked out of caucus.  And if Lieberman launches an investigation into Obama's administration at a time when Obama is trying to forward a key part of the agenda, and gets derailed, how will that "help" Obama?

You might not think this scenario is likely but it is the substantive grounds you must address if you want to argue this on the same terms.


[ Parent ]
the point stands (0.00 / 0)
I was supposing a hypothetical: what if Obama had lobbied for Lieberman to be kicked out of the caucus?

But the point is the same given the terms of the debate as it actually unfolded: Obama's calculation was surely that he would be less likely to keep Lieberman on his side in any substantive policy battles if Lieberman had been kicked out of the committee chairman's seat.

As for the possibility that Lieberman tries to derail Obama's administration through investigations from his committee perch... well, yeah, I'd worry about that if I were Obama. Still, Obama may have felt Lieberman could be kept in check, and would be a bigger ally if Obama fought to keep him from being substantively punished, and a bigger obstacle if he was marginalized.

I am not saying this was substantively the right decision. I'm saying the best way to understand Obama's actions is in terms of Obama's self-interest. And on that calculation, I think Obama was probably right.


[ Parent ]
Given the margin (0.00 / 0)
I think that Obama couldn't have changed the outcome.  What Obama may have done is prevent this from being a bitter fight within the caucus.  This wasn't about keeping Lieberman useful; this was about keeping good relations with those who were voting for Lieberman.

Things You Don't Talk About in Polite Company: Religion, Politics, the Occasional Intersection of Both

[ Parent ]
But the thing is (4.00 / 1)
Obama didn't need to involve himself in this fight at all.  He could have just hung back and ignored things.

[ Parent ]
I fear (4.00 / 1)
he really did mean his simple-minded version of "post-partisanship". He's the smartest president we've had in a long time, and ran the best Dem campaign, against the biggest odds, in memory. I can only hope he's once again outstrategized his lefty doubters and still intends to come through with the goods. So I'm very pissed but not shorn of some hope for a world-changing administration.

[ Parent ]
Not #6 (4.00 / 1)
He may well help on 1-4, but he'll undermine #5 and 6. Joe's definitely pro-torture.

Conduct your own interview of Sarah Palin!

[ Parent ]
AND, also (4.00 / 1)
his committee is relevant to torture legislation

[ Parent ]
And also (0.00 / 0)
And also, he's been kicked off environment and public works, so he'll probably torpedo us on #3. Also.

Conduct your own interview of Sarah Palin!

[ Parent ]
Um, little double negative problem? (0.00 / 0)
You "want to push back against the idea that the last two weeks has not somehow been a string of defeats for progressives."? So you want to push for the idea that it has been a string of defeats. And yet that's not what you proceed to do.

And yes, I am in a bad bad frigging mood and being snarky and petty.


grammar (0.00 / 0)
You're not supposed to start a sentence with "and".  just kidding )

[ Parent ]
It's true, I suppose (4.00 / 2)
We never get to feel that we are in the driver's seat, but if at least some of our key priorities are enacted, I won't ultimately complain.

Still, it sucks to feel this way.  We are left hoping for some candy from Obama without any real sign that we are in accord.  We've been given the finger and we have to hope he doesn't really mean it.  Or that giving us the finger publicaly helps provide cover for him to take some later steps in our direction.

But none of this should be surprising.

Also, Chris, didn't you mean to say:

However, given the focus on how this vote means that "the left has been foiled again," I want to push back against the idea that the last two weeks has somehow been a string of defeats for progressives.
(lose the "has not somehow" - I can't do strikeout).

sTiVo's rule: Just because YOU "wouldn't put it past 'em" doesn't prove that THEY did it.

Keeping fingers crossed (0.00 / 0)
But I'm not holding my breath. Democratic majorities got us exactly no progress in the last two years. Granted, they had to deal with a very narrow majority in the Senate and an uncooperative executive. But Bush seemed to get more of his agenda rammed through the Democratic congress than he could get from Republicans.

I think that will change, but I'm counting zero chickens at this point.

Conduct your own interview of Sarah Palin!


[ Parent ]
agreed (0.00 / 0)
We can hope, that's about it.  If even 20% of our hopes are ultimatly satisfied, maybe even take some satisfaction down the road. But we can't count on anything.

We do stand in a better place to organize from.  But the mode has to change.  Cheap unity over throwing the bastards out is over.

sTiVo's rule: Just because YOU "wouldn't put it past 'em" doesn't prove that THEY did it.


[ Parent ]
Let's remember that it took the religious right.... (0.00 / 0)
...20 years to gain the power that they did.  Reagan used them for votes then rebuffed them... They made big progress in 1994, but ultimately ended up running the party around 2002.  The went from nothing to total Republican party dominance, but it took two decades.  We only started flexing our muscles in 2006... it's going to take a lot longer than 2 years to get to be in the position we want!

REID: Voting against us was never part of our arrangement!
SPECTER: I am altering the deal! Pray I don't alter it any further!
REID: This deal keeps getting worse all the time!


[ Parent ]
not a punishment (0.00 / 0)
As Steve Benen pointed out earlier today, even this little "punishment" was actually no punishment at all.  Under new rules no Senator can chair a committee and two sub-committees, so Lieberman would've wound up leaving EPW voluntarily anyway.  The result of today's vote leaves Lieberman no worse off than he would've been otherwise.

The Difference Between Republicans and Democrats (4.00 / 1)
If Lieberman had been a Republican Senator, and the shoe was completely on the other foot, he would have been stripped of his chairmanship. No doubt about it.

In the grand scheme of things, the Republican leadership listens to their base too much, and the Democratic leadership listens to their base not enough.  We need to keep pushing in from the left.  


Another Frustrating Day . . . (0.00 / 0)
for progressives, but I'll still be happy on January 20. From Barack Obama's perspective keeping Lie-berman close might make sense, but until I see the wisdom in it (when, or IF, Lie-berman comes through on a CRUCIAL vote) I'll continue to be bummed that the Dems didn't even insist that Lie-berman apologize before rewarding him. Secret ballot -- Hah! Only so they don't have to be honest with their constituents.

The next time Barbara Boxer wants money for her re-election I might reply with two words: Joe Lie-berman. We progressives only seem to be loved during fund raising cycles. Sadly, I've been heartened by Boxer over the years while Dianne Feinstein drives me crazy on a regular basis so I probably should examine why I get my hopes up so high only to have them dashed. Or maybe there just aren't enough of us progressives to scare them to voting our way. Afterall, they reason, where would we go . . .  


[ Parent ]
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