What's The What?

by: Paul Rosenberg

Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 15:30


Mark Matson, one of the most thoughful Obamaphile commentators here at Open Left, posted a quick hit overnight, excerpting a recent Marc Ambinder post, "Obama And A New Liberal Consensus".  It's worth taking a closer look at, because I really do think it makes the best case I've seen for Obama, and in turn, this also helps sharpen the focus of criticism.  This is not unfamiliar territory, of course.  But Mark has a good eye for a good presentation.  Here's his excerpt, which he calls "quite thought provoking":

Some Democrats are wary of Obama's professed bipartisanship. But there's been no evidence that his views are torn between the left and the right; he is clearly putting forth a progressive, or liberal, agenda. So, rather than a Democrat bringing in a bunch of Republicans to govern by splitting the baby between the two sides, it appears that we have a case of a Democrat bringing in Republicans to put a bipartisan face on progressive policy, shades of, say, George Bush bringing in Ted Kennedy to put a bipartisan face on "compassionate conservatism."

...

But if he taps some of the most well-known Republicans in America to serve in his administration, it will be tougher for conservative Republicans who are opposed in principle to Obama's agenda.  Even the Republicans are Democrats these days, is what the impression would be.  In other words, liberal consensus.

...

He seems to want to mainstream Democratic philosophies and the Democratic worldview, rather than focusing on pure party-building (though he's certainly built up the party as well). It's a long-term strategy, and a far more ambitious one than people seem to realize.

Paul Rosenberg :: What's The What?
Say we give Obama the benefit of the doubt here.  Say this is his strategy.  Say he's crystal clear on it.  Say that a lot of folks have been misreading him (I freely admit to having a very hard time reading him at all).  Say he's a true political genius, and this is clearly a plan that could work.  Say all that.  What then?

Several problems clearly remain:

    (1) Choices like keeping Bob Gates at defense are not merely matters of building concensus. People matter in terms of what they have actually said and done. They are not mere interchangable symbols. Gates has a long history of politicizing intelligence and misleading Congress, going all the way back to the 1980s.

    If you must have a GOP SecDef, it should be someone like Lugar, for exmple, who has a long history of working to try and get rid of loose nukes--something most elite Reps couldn't care less about, but that must make a whole lot of sense to their base. Note: I am not arguing for Lugar per se. He's simply provided as an example of the sort of record and relationship to others that Obama should be looking for.

    (2) Even worse are choices like John Brennan as Obama's transition chief for intelligence policy, who was not, like Gates, a fourth quarter BushCO replacement, but a BushCo cheerleader for its most noxious policies. As Glenn Greenwald has written:

    Obama's transition chief for intelligence policy, John Brennan, was an ardent supporter of torture and one of the most emphatic advocates of FISA expansions and telecom immunity.  

    This is bipartisanship, all right--in the most pernicious Iraq War Vote sense. Obama owes his entire political viability on not having been part of that consensus, and choices like Brennan do not point to a new liberal consensus, but to the exact opposite: the long-term acceptance of Bush's radicalism as part of a center-right bipartisan consensus.

    (3) The complete lack of any progressive Democratic figures is not the least bit necessary for a consensus-building strategy, while severely undercutting the prospects that any consensus Obama forms will actually be "a progressive, or liberal, agenda," as Ambinder claims it will be.

    (4) Sacrificing a focus on the rule of law--including the prosecution of Bush-era crimes--in order to "get things done" is precisely the path that Clinton took in 1993, and it was repaid with a level of savagery virtually unherd of in US history. There is no evidence whatsoever that such a strategy will be any more successful now than it was in 1993.

    It would be far more bipartisan and responsible to appoint someone such as Bruce Fein--a prominent conservative critic of Bush-era lawlessness--to be a special prosecutor responsible for overseeing all Bush-era criminal investigations.

This is hardly an exhaustive list, but it is sufficient to show that Ambinder's argument cannot be accepted as is.  Perhaps his argument is what Obama thinks he is doing, but in that case, Obama's judgment is clearly flawed, and just as clearly subject to the Verailles bubble effect, which screens out 90%--at a bare minumum--of what happens outside the Beltway.

We need to be very clear about this reality, and about the fact that Ambinder is simply selling us a Bridge to Nowhere.  For if we do not realize how utterly misleding this narrative is, we will be in no position to change it.

As Greenwald notes in his diary today (with emphasis added):

Barack Obama is a centrist, establishment politician.  That is what he has been since he's been in the Senate, and more importantly, it's what he made clear -- both explicitly and through his actions -- that he intended to be as President.  Even in the primary, he paid no price whatsoever for that in terms of progressive support.  As is true for the national Democratic Party generally, he has no good reason to believe he needs to accommodate liberal objections to what he is doing.  The Joe Lieberman fiasco should have made that as conclusively clear as it gets.  

The point isn't that this reality should just be passively accepted and nothing done about it.  The point is that for anything to be done about it, the reality needs to be accepted.  The campaign we began earlier this year with Accountability Now and are now vigorously developing and pursuing -- to devote all resources and energies to defeating incumbents in primary challenges -- is grounded in the premise that one's political beliefs and principles will be ignored until there is a price to pay for ignoring them. Democrats don't perceive there is a price to pay for ignoring progressives, and so they do. That isn't surprising. What would be surprising is if, under those circumstances, anything else happened.

Arguments such as Ambinder's are valuable, not because they are true, but because they make the contradictions much clearer and easier to spot.  This particular argument has the added benefit that it presents a vision that most of us would very much like to make come true, and so we can fruitfully criticize it in its own terms.


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What's The What? | 56 comments
Great post, but... (4.00 / 1)
The complete lack of any progressive Democratic figures is not the least bit necessary for a consensus-building strategy, while severely undercutting the prospects that any consensus Obama forms will actually be "a progressive, or liberal, agenda," as Ambinder claims it will be.

Are you sure that Raúl Grijalva is not a progressive democrat? Because last time I checked, he had a "D" next to his name and was in the Congressional Progressive caucus.


Might Be The Exception That Proves The Rule (4.00 / 1)
Interior?

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Noise (0.00 / 0)
The blogosphere is filled with lots of noise right now. I'm waiting for the signal (which is actual pronouncements of policy from the Obama administration). We'll probably have to wait until early January to get those.

His Team-Building Is ALREADY The Signal (4.00 / 3)
The question is simply if we're paying attention or not.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
But then its noise when compared to the actual (0.00 / 0)
policies he has mentioned thus far. Just had this discussion with Chris regarding the stimulus package. or tried. Asked a simple question- what is the stimulus package. Is it progressive? He mentioned not if its about tax reduction. I pointed out that the plan does not appear to be about tax reductionl, so it is progressive? I ask the same of you- is the stimulus plan progressive? What of his willingness to accept mandates with his healthcare reform? What do these signals say regarding the issues you are raising? That's how I would like to hear an argument.

[ Parent ]
The Stimulus Plan Is Politically NECESSARY (0.00 / 0)
In fact, it's probably too small.  But I'm willing to take it as a starting point.  I'm not arguing that nothing he plans to do is good.  Heck, even Bush did somethings that were good. Um, accepted Rumsfeld's resignation, maybe?

It's more about the overall mix, including (a) things he's not doing that need doing--a comprehensive package to renegotiate mortgages and keep people in their homes, for example and (b) things he is doing that he should not--talking about making Afghanistan his Iraq/Vietnam.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
You lost me with the comparison to Bush (4.00 / 1)
Even with regard to the wrong to right ration- such a comparsion is over the top.

Is this how far this site is falling?

But let me try to discuss this anyway:

a) Re Stimulus. 2 weeks ago (and its only been 2 weeks) they were debating whether they should go big or small with their plans. That you now say that big was always necessary flies in the face of the two directions that were the "common wisdom." Political necessty grows out of that common wisdom. Obama made a choice for big.

b) You don't discuss his healthcare plan.

c) You aren't going to want to hear this but there is no solution to the mortgage issue. We can at best minimize the damage, but a lot of people will lose their homes. Obama is not in office yet. I am not exactly sure what you think he can do rght now, that's not already being done? Maybe advocate the creation of HOLA like BTD does?  I don't understand what "big thing" can be done here unless we socialize ownership of homes too. That doesn't address the value of the home issue. It may not even addresss ownership of the home issue because the problem is that people do not make enough money to afford the homes they live in. Not sure what hte solution is. Would love to hear one that's a realistic assessment of the valuation issue. And the loan issue.

d) So- you think the situation in Afghanistan is the same as Iraq? Serously you lose me there. I ws for going into Afghanistan. Still am. If you think tmakes me less of a 'progressive" than people here then we have different definitions of the word.

e) by the way- general OT: if you want to look at what direction this site is headed read some of the Quick hits- one of which is accusinng Obama of being a liar for not bailing out the auto industry when in fact Obama has just required the industry to have some kind of business plan. Now, my friend is much more harsh about what he thinks should happen. He doesn't want a business plan. He wants to fire the management in the industry and replace them. But a mere request for a business plan is now a reason for calling Obama a liar and questioning his "progressiveness"?

There seems to be a lot of purity tests on this site that are starting to concern me.



[ Parent ]
Wait, we are told. That made sense ... (4.00 / 3)
...after Obama won the nomination right up until the day McCain conceded. Now we are supposed to wait until January 20. Or, better yet, a few months or a lot of months until we see how the policies are doing. Why is that appointments are not considered policy directives is beyond my ken.

[ Parent ]
Wait (4.00 / 2)
Wait until Obama has been out of office for at least ten years, then look back and see it all with the perfection of historical hindsight.  Duh.  :-)

Reminds me of grade school where every year we were told we weren't (our grade minus one) anymore, so behavior X was not allowed.  But it wasn't like the teacher the previous year thought it was ok.  Not once, not once were we ever told that something was ok because it was age appropriate.


[ Parent ]
Why are we trying to assess Obama's place in history? (4.00 / 2)
It's too early.  History through a crystal ball?  During the campaign it was important to assess what an Obama administration might do vs. what a Clinton adminstration might do vs. what a McCain-Palin administration might do (God forbid - but I know spent (wasted?) time arguing with certain progressives that Obama was worth voting for).

Well, we got him.  We don't know what he'll do, historical assessment must wait for history to happen.  Before the election, our task was to organize the election, and making such assessments had some value.  Now, it seems to me, our task is figuring out how to apply pressure for what WE want to counter the pressure for our opponents want.  

Assessment can (and must) wait.

sTiVo's rule: Just because YOU "wouldn't put it past 'em" doesn't prove that THEY did it.


[ Parent ]
I don't know about Mark's point .. (4.00 / 2)
...but mine was snark, a response to all those who telling us to STFU because Obama hasn't done anything yet so we can't judge what he might be planning to do. How is it that appointing Cabinet members isn't doing anything? I heartily agree with your view on finding out where to put pressure. I just wish there were a few allies for us - left-progressives - in the inner circles.

[ Parent ]
point (0.00 / 0)
Snark in graph 1, real point in graph 2, worded snarkily.

[ Parent ]
I will repeat the same question as above (4.00 / 1)
How does one conclude from looking at his planned stimulus package that he's going to govern as a strict centrist? What about his willingess to now accept mandates as a part of healthcare reform? What about his position on banktruptcy so long as its negotiated for big 3 automakers? What about his position on Iraq? What about his plans to shut down Gitmo? What about his postion on gay issues, which he didn't need to include, in which he seems ready to move forward toward ending discrimination against gays? What about his position on energy that he's given, his positons on the FCC, etc? Since you menton policy that's cool. Let's discuss what you think of each of the things I just mentioned.

[ Parent ]
For the record (4.00 / 2)
I actually think Ambinder is mostly wrong on Obama's intent, but I think the overall effect will be much the same.  Obama thinks of himself as a centrist pragmatist but his big ticket items and most of his solutions are very liberal.

I actually like Obama's cabinet choices and the hands on experience they bring.  My concern is his senior adviser posts.  That is the place to stock progressives who might not otherwise have the resume, but I'm not seeing that.  If Ambinder was correct, I think there would be more progressives in the less public positions, but we are not seeing that.


Prove it (4.00 / 1)
his solutions are very liberal.


[ Parent ]
proof? (4.00 / 3)

Here's a brief description: centrist talk, centrist talk, actual plan: very liberal, centrist talk, centrist talk.

This isn't a proof, of course.  The only proof will be actual action, but that would be true even for a President Kucinich.


[ Parent ]
Well, obviously (4.00 / 3)
it's a subjective, relative thing, "very liberal." I'd argue he seems to ready to present policies that're liberal if you compare them to Clinton's, very liberal if you compare them to Bush's, but quite moderate given the state of the country and the size of his victory. Anything less would be criminal.

In any case one of the aggravating things about some of his supporters is their tendency to claim he's come up with new funky ways to push progressivism, ways that run to counter to what we know to be true from experience. "He's gonna compromise with Corporate America and still be progressive, he's going take huge amounts of money from Wall Street and still be progressive, he's going to name centrists and conservatives to the cabinet and still be progressive.' Well, at some point the check comes due.

Or, because I know you need yet another metaphor, he's not immune to the laws of political gravity.



[ Parent ]
You seem to be arguin that nothing he will ever do will be good (4.00 / 1)
enough because he's not liberal enough for you. So when you say words like progressive, you aren't saying he's not progressive, but instead that he's not progressive enough for you?

[ Parent ]
No, I don't say (4.00 / 2)
"nothing he ever do will be good." In the thread below I preemptively praise his stimulus plan.

But to restate, yeah, a word like progressive is relative, so rather than try to determine whether Obama is "progressive" it's more useful to debate whether he is being as progressive as his context allows (and demands.) I start from the premise that Democratic politicians can not only be pretty damn progressive but that they can't afford not to be, especially on bread-and-butter issues. People who say Obama is set to govern as a liberal point to his universal health care and energy proposals. But it's simply inconceivable that a Democratic president at this moment in time would offer anything less. Indeed, it's quite conceivable that a Democratic president at this moment in time would offer something more (Gore-like--or at least Dodd-like proposals on energy, single-payer.) And on trade and taxes a Democratic president could be a lot farther to the left than Obama and not only remain viable but thrive.

I weigh Obama not against Noam Chomsky or my own fantasies but against what a progressive, savvy president could and should be doing.


[ Parent ]
What Would Wellstone Do? (4.00 / 1)
I think it's pretty easy to think about this, if people really want to.  We've had many different examples in different policy areas, and we've had the example of Paul Wellstone as a senator who addressed many different areas during his time in the Senate.  It's not as if we have to draw up manifestoes out of thin air.

And because this is so, and because it's so obvious, I really do have a hard time taking much of this sort of criticism seriously.  It just seems like thoughtless word-tossing.  So thanks for taking the time to patiently respond.

I know that bruhrabbit2 has had some very thoughtful things to say here throughout the campaign--whether I agreed with him (which was mostly) or not (which usually made me clarify myself).  But lately he seems to have a one-size-fits-all response that simply ignores the existence of realistic alternatives, when the reality is that such alternatives exist in considerable abundance.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
If you think your analysis is thoughtful then maybe that's the problem (4.00 / 1)
It's like our discussion of gay rights.You accepted the behavior of people who so obviously had an issue with gays only because they were in your mind "progressive."

Or the stimulus package "sorry, but it's not good enough is your response"

What is good enough. Fixate a postion not based on who you wanted in a position. Fix it on the issues. S

I am not intereted in labels or moving targetts. I am intersted in people who want to get stuff done at this juncture.

The danger of the game being played here is that it becomes an undefined game of moving the target. Be careful that it doesns't move past you so that you too are not "progressive" enough.


[ Parent ]
Not So Much (0.00 / 0)
It's like our discussion of gay rights.You accepted the behavior of people who so obviously had an issue with gays only because they were in your mind "progressive."

That's not true at all.  First, I was not accepting, I just didn't accept you lumping everyone who didn't agree with you into the heap of homophobes.  There really could have been homophobia involved, but you couldn't rationally conclude that because you broke off good faith argumentation prematurely.  I can understand that, given the circumstances, but I didn't join in.  I did, however, remain critical on my own terms.

What I did accept was the possibility of reasoning with those folks.  Even if I couldn't persuade them, I figured there were probably others lurking who might be initially swayed by their ideas, and they could be reached by countering those ideas through persuasion, rather than attack.

It's interesting that you attack me here for the same thing you otherwise praise Obama for--listening to people and building consensus.  

Or the stimulus package "sorry, but it's not good enough is your response"

That's not an accurate reflection of what I said.  What I said was (emphasis added):

The Stimulus Plan Is Politically NECESSARY

In fact, it's probably too small.  But I'm willing to take it as a starting point.  I'm not arguing that nothing he plans to do is good.  Heck, even Bush did somethings that were good. Um, accepted Rumsfeld's resignation, maybe?

It's more about the overall mix, including (a) things he's not doing that need doing--a comprehensive package to renegotiate mortgages and keep people in their homes, for example and (b) things he is doing that he should not--talking about making Afghanistan his Iraq/Vietnam.

That's not rejecting his stimulus plan.  It's offering the opnion that it's probably too small, but accepting it as a starting point.  And it's clarifying what my problem is--that the stimulus plan is not the be all and end all of the discussion.

You, again:

What is good enough. Fixate a postion not based on who you wanted in a position. Fix it on the issues.

That's precisely what I've done.  And you have ignored me in favor of a straw man.

I am not intereted in labels or moving targetts. I am intersted in people who want to get stuff done at this juncture.

The danger of the game being played here is that it becomes an undefined game of moving the target. Be careful that it doesns't move past you so that you too are not "progressive" enough.

This is so not me you are talking about.  In terms of my ideals, I've already indicated them in my "Star Trek Socialism" diary.  I take it for granted that no politician I ever vote for is going to be progressive enough for me.  Only the prophetic voices will reach that standard.  And while I will join my voice with theirs, I will work with politicians who work incrimentally, with much more modest goals.  I have done so all my life.  I am both a visionary and a pragmatist.  And when you attack me as you are doing here, you do not touch me, because you are arguing against a straw man who has nothing to do with me.

I respect your tenacity and your forthrightness.  You have every sign of having been a helluva courtroom lawyer.  But I do feel that you can get so wound up in advocacy that you sometimes don't really hear what other people are saying.  Other times, it's true, you hear something that other people miss.  And this may make you a helluva documentary filmmaker, too.  But there are also some very obvious things that you miss, as I have tried to highlight in this comment.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
by the way- (4.00 / 1)
realistic alternatives to me are ones that for which you have built consensus. have you done that?

[ Parent ]
I set my standards by a fixed positon rather than a moving (0.00 / 0)
target designed to never allow someone to be good enough to suceed. At the end of the day, he has to set some policies while you can sit back and say he's not good enough for you. You have no more idea where you moving target is than I do from reading you. Which is my chief concern with such analysis. Its ultimately virtually useless for the reader to determine if Obama is meeting basic values or instead never meeting a moving target of values. If you were to say to me that he's not meeting basic values, then list them, and let's talk. but to tell me  that yo ucan move the target each time we talk is not a useful conversation.

[ Parent ]
What I wonder at is if Obama is wrapping "very liberal" actual plans (4.00 / 1)
inside centrist rhetoric (which is exactly what he should do) and is wrapping his very liberal world view and understanding inside centrist, and Versailles staff: --> then where does he get his advise from? Who helps him balance the need for keeping the world financial system liquid (which NEEDS doing) with the need to re-regulate and control and focus ther financial system on the national economy?

Who is Obama getting his ideas from? where did 2.5 million jobs come from?  

--

The government has a defect: it's potentially democratic. Corporations have no defect: they're pure tyrannies. -Chomsky


[ Parent ]
Building a whole bunch of roads (0.00 / 0)
Is a centrist plan. If he were talking environmental infrastructure or training teachers (as opposed to building a lot of buildings) I'd call it a liberal plan.

[ Parent ]
you didn't read anything about his plan (0.00 / 0)
how do I know. I read your post.

[ Parent ]
It CANNOT be proven. (4.00 / 2)
That doesn't mean it won't happen the way he lays out.  The opposite cannot be proven either.

We need to get used to that.

I suspect it would be very enlightening to read what the Abolitionists had to say about President Abraham Lincoln.  Lincoln's course could easily have ended in disaster.  He expected to lose his re-election bid until some military victories changed the landscape.  And yet from hindsight there was brilliance there.

We are along for the ride at this point.  We don't know where it will lead.    Demanding proof of Obama's intentions is a waste of time.  Even if you could get it, can you prove what you will give in return?  Better would be to find a strategy for pushing the things that YOU want him to do, secure in the knowledge that others will be pushing him in the opposite direction.

sTiVo's rule: Just because YOU "wouldn't put it past 'em" doesn't prove that THEY did it.


[ Parent ]
Clinton (4.00 / 5)
But if he taps some of the most well-known Republicans in America to serve in his administration, it will be tougher for conservative Republicans who are opposed in principle to Obama's agenda.

You mean, just like when BC put Republicans in his administration, and Republicans were so decent to him as a result?


Yeah, Precisely! (0.00 / 0)
That old Commie!

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Crowd Control (4.00 / 1)
In college I learned I could control relatively large crowds with very little effort.  You know how in certain situations at a party everyone needs to go to another room for the cake, or whatever, but it is hard to yell over the heads of everyone and get them to pay attention?  I'm talking about that kind of crowd control, getting them to move where you want them to go.

The secret is simple.  First, if you look around the room you'll notice people tend to form groups.  If you look at each group you'll notice they tend to focus around one person; could be a pretty girl or popular story teller or whatever, there is always that one person who gets the most attention.

Here is what you do, go to one of those central people and tell him or her specifically that they need to move to the other room.  Once that one person moves their group will follow.  Usually, that is enough as once everyone sees movement they ask why and then find out they need to move as well, but the technique can be repeated for multiple groups if needed.

Why this is potentially relevant is left as an exercise to the reader.


Clever (4.00 / 1)
since leaving the meat of the argument unstated makes refuting it somewhat akin to shooting ducks in the dark.

Sans infra-red goggles, of course.

I'm sure Dick Cheney wouldn't mind.

Just one of the almost limiteless ways in which he and I are not alike.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Oops, meant to hit Cancel (4.00 / 1)
I keep writing and deleting responses to this.  My favorite so far:

"Much apologies o' Grand Master.  For now on, no observation or thought will be tossed out unless put into a form of pure advocacy.  I'll keep random musing to myself where they can do no harm."

But perhaps I should just ignore it.  Yea, that would be best.


[ Parent ]
Still not enough data (4.00 / 1)
I see nothing wrong with keeping a sharp eye on everything Obama does, and yes, I'd be happier with a real out-front liberal in the cabinet.  And I have no problem with criticizing him when he does something we disagree with, such as the FISA cave and the Lieberman cave.

On the other hand, if Obama does actually end up pushing a liberal agenda and calls it centrist, won't he then have moved the "center" to the left?

WILL he do this?  I don't know.  Nor does anyone know for CERTAIN that he will pursue a Clinton-like triangulation strategy.

One problem I see is that there are some progressive steps that Obama indicates he WILL take, that some of us here are sniffing at.  Things like public works spending in a recession without worrying too much for now about the deficit.  That's not Clintonist triangulation, that's Keynesianism we haven't seen in 40 years.  It's NOT nothing.  It hasn't been accepted as centrism anytime recently, but now some here are like "been there, done that, boring."  Are you so sure?  Would McCain have done any of this?

So it's a glass-half-empty, glass-half-full situation.  The devil is in the details and we don't know the details yet.  As I said the other night, our energy might be better spent pressuring Obama on the issues we care about WITHOUT WORRYING whose side he's REALLY ON - simply to counter the pressure we know the other side is putting on him.

The jury is still out on Obama.  The point should not be at this point to attack him or to defend him but to keep our eyes open and pushing for what WE think is important.

sTiVo's rule: Just because YOU "wouldn't put it past 'em" doesn't prove that THEY did it.


Context Is Everything (0.00 / 0)
One problem I see is that there are some progressive steps that Obama indicates he WILL take, that some of us here are sniffing at.  Things like public works spending in a recession without worrying too much for now about the deficit.  That's not Clintonist triangulation, that's Keynesianism we haven't seen in 40 years.  It's NOT nothing.

No, it's not nothing.  But Clinton didn't come into office in the midst of the worst financial crisis since the Great Depression, totally discrediting decades of conservative economic dogma.  He actually came into office having promised investments without prioritizing budget-cutting first, and then he caved under pressure.

This time, the pressure comes from the threat of economic collapse.  The good news is that that pushes Obama in a progressive direction, because there is no alternative.  But that doesn't show us anything about what he'd do if he had an alternative.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I have always believed (4.00 / 6)
that events would push Obama in a progressive direction more than Obama himself would push in that direction.  I have never had that much faith in Obama.

If we want him to go further, we have to figure out a way to push him there.  Tea-leaf reading will only take us so far.  Do we want to ANALYZE Obama or MOVE America?

Why aren't there more posts about how to expand voting rights and stop voter suppression, about what it's possible to win in health care in this climate?  Why spend so much time analyzing what Obama might do, instead of figuring out what we should do?

sTiVo's rule: Just because YOU "wouldn't put it past 'em" doesn't prove that THEY did it.


[ Parent ]
You Answer Yourself (0.00 / 0)
Tea-leaf reading will only take us so far.  Do we want to ANALYZE Obama or MOVE America?

Both, obviously:

If we want him to go further, we have to figure out a way to push him there.


"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
My point is that I see a lot more analysis (4.00 / 3)
of what Obama has in his heart of hearts

than analysis of how we get from point A to point B.

Since the historical analysis cannot be conclusively done now, is there anything to do BUT the point A to point B stuff.

Imagine what historical analysis of Abraham Lincoln in December 1860 (or even December 1861) would have looked like.



sTiVo's rule: Just because YOU "wouldn't put it past 'em" doesn't prove that THEY did it.


[ Parent ]
a lot of this seems personality driven (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
Why does it matter (0.00 / 0)
what Obama would do if he had an alternative, if in fact, he has no alternative?

sTiVo's rule: Just because YOU "wouldn't put it past 'em" doesn't prove that THEY did it.

[ Parent ]
divining rods (4.00 / 1)
Criticizing the Obama administration-to-be from the left is a good and proper thing, especially at sites like this, so here's to four years of rigor and vigor on this front.

But: something seems a little odd about recent analyses by Paul and Sirota on this front. It seems like you guys are looking at these appointments to try to divine significance about how Obama intends to govern. But why is this necessary? As near as I can tell, Obama is acting exactly in accord with the way he campaigned. He said he wanted to try to build bipartisan consensus as much as possible, and that he'd appoint Republicans to his cabinet and so forth. He also made it clear that his priorities would be health care reform, energy independence/alternative energy, and getting out of Iraq and putting more emphasis on Afghanistan/Pakistan (and, since the economy ruptured, economic stimulus). And his actions since winning have indicated this is exactly what he intends to do. Now, I see this and I think to myself: if Obama succeeds in implementing his agenda, I will be very pleased.

Recently, Paul, you said Obama is the most opaque politician you'd seen in a generation, or something to that effect. But everything he's done seems to be perfectly consistent with what he said he was going to do. The whole issue of "is he a super-secret liberal/conservative?" seems beside the point. I just have trouble understanding what people mean when they take either side of this issue, because Obama's actions have been so consistent with his words.

Like I said, I'm all for criticizing Obama when he deserves it, like, e.g., on John Brennan (which so far strikes me as the one really anomalous inconsistency with his campaign rhetoric). What I don't understand is why anyone has been surprised by anything he's done, or is offended by anything he's done as if he's broken some promise, or thinks anything he's done indicates some secret agenda. And if he continues doing what he's doing, he'll end up not being quite as liberal as I'd really like, probably, but I'll nonetheless be very happy with the results.


To summarize (4.00 / 2)
You think Obama is doing exactly what he said he would do and you think we should take that as evidence he will continue to do what he said he would do?  Novel thought.

[ Parent ]
well, if you want to be all "clear" and "concise" about it... (4.00 / 1)
But who wants that?  :)

[ Parent ]
My wife (0.00 / 0)
has a serious and incurable disease, and has had it for nine years.  On top of this, she tends to be a worrier.  Early on I constantly had to argue with her that she should stop imagining the worst possible outcome, because, if she was right, the "satisfaction" of having been right would be the only thing she'd gain.  Whereas if she was wrong, she would have needlessly made the days before we knew more miserable than they needed to be.

She had to be persuaded to hope.

She's had her ups and downs since, but she's still here, we still have a life and this year we actually took a European vacation that she'd wanted to take for years.  She still has the disease, but our life goes on.

I can't prove that Barack Obama will fulfill all our hopes for him.  You can't prove that all our worst fears for him will come to pass.  Why does this matter?  We have work to do.

sTiVo's rule: Just because YOU "wouldn't put it past 'em" doesn't prove that THEY did it.


Difference (0.00 / 0)
The difference is we can make an actual impact on the Obama administration.  The more pressure he feels to appease the left the more the left will get.  Squeaky wheels and all that.

Personally, I'm taking the attitude you suggest, but I'm mostly happy others are not.  (I'm lazy that way.)


[ Parent ]
My whole point was agreeing, not disagreeing with you. (4.00 / 1)
I'm not against criticizing Obama for things he has done, nor pressuring him to do things we want him to do.

I am saying that trying to ASSESS him at this point has no real value.  What we need to be assessing are the things we can do to move him where we want him to go.

sTiVo's rule: Just because YOU "wouldn't put it past 'em" doesn't prove that THEY did it.


[ Parent ]
Ah, yes (0.00 / 0)
We do agree.

I think the attempts to distill meaning from Obama's moves haven't been too helpful; though I do find them interesting and entertaining.

And yes, that is different from actual advocacy, which clearly is useful.


[ Parent ]
For example (0.00 / 0)
What do we do with the news (from perhaps reliable, perhaps unreliable sources) that Obama is considering some sort of prepackaged bankruptcy for the auto industry.

Should we be thinking

a) trust him to do the right thing (whatever that is)
b) Slam him for the Clintonian triangulation we always knew was at his core?
c) Discuss how best to advance the things we believe in

It's obvious to me that the answer is C.  But C begs another question - what IS the right thing to do?  There are those who post here who feel that bankruptcy will teach the union rank and file not to trust their leaders' promises on pensions and that that's a great thing.  There are others who believe that the primary thing is to insure that this is crisis is not resolved on the backs of the workers alone.  And others who could care less but are most concerned about  how the auto industry can be induced to create the low-mileage product mix they need to in this era.

But we are discussing neither of these things.  Not how to pressure for what we want and not discussing what the right thing to do is.  Instead we are speculating about what this means about Obama.  Waste of time.

If Obama is in fact considering this plan, an assessment will depend on the details.  It could be another depressing Wall St. plot to screw the workers in the name of some hazy future utopia.  It could be an attempt to win over the necessary support by inducing the workers and retirees to make small symbolic concessions.  Or anything in between.  Will it use Wall Street pressure to push the union, or bring both to the table fairly?  How will environmental concerns figure in the decision?

We don't KNOW what the proposal is.  But we ought to be able to discuss what WE think should happen without knowing where Obama's going.  And that isn't happening.



sTiVo's rule: Just because YOU "wouldn't put it past 'em" doesn't prove that THEY did it.


[ Parent ]
random thoughts (4.00 / 1)
i think the political dynamic in this country has changed.  it used to be right vs. left; now its stupid vs. not-stupid.  

i count obama as not stupid.

i also think that obama's options are severely limited at this point.  two wars.  an economy in shambles.  etc etc almost ad infinitum.  what he needs to do right now is deal with shit.  that means getting people in place that know the process & getting legislation passed that will stop the hemorrhaging.  the easiest way to do that & be successful is to listen to ideas from all sides & figure out the ones that have the broadest consensus & get those legislated.  the absolute last thing he, or the country, needs -- or wants -- is another ideological turf war.

i also think that obama is serious about the house divided argument.  if you look at his past history on legislation while he was in chicago, one of the things you'll note is that he not only reached out to his opposition in many cases, but he also in some cases converted them to his cause.  the video taping police interviews is a good example of that.  earlier still, he won the election for the presidency of harvard law review by listening to the conservatives out there.

as for ideas, who's to say that obama doesn't have some of his own?  why are you assuming that he's going to get his ideas from gates or petreaus (sp?) or whoever else?  did you not watch the congressional testimony where obama pretty much told petreaus that he, obama, if he became president, would be boss?

as well, if you're familiar with obama's methodology, then you know that he likes to listen to people.  he might not say much himself but he will ask & ask & ask until he's got every little bit of information down.  & then he makes his decision.

but these little temper tantrums are getting old.  we're not in high school & we don't need to go waaaaa if the most popular kid in school isn't fawning over every little jot & doodle we make.  if you have policy ideas -- not some vague criticism that xxxx is not progressive enough -- that you want the obama administration to implement, then spill, yo.  

let's make the blogosphere the political equivalent of the open source movement.  let's come up with some ideas, let's come up with some policy papers, let's come up with some arguments as to why this should be passed, let's then get these ideas out, & let's make these ideas appeal to not only citizens but also individual congresspeople.

bottom up community organizers do not whine & throw a hissy fit when the power structure does not invite them to the table.  that's expected.  bottom up community organizers build a new table & force the power structure to come to it.

this is something that obama already knows & something that some of us need to figure out.
s.


I Think You're Missing Some Things (4.00 / 2)
Such as:

i think the political dynamic in this country has changed.  it used to be right vs. left; now its stupid vs. not-stupid.  

i count obama as not stupid.

Who says it's either/or?

i also think that obama's options are severely limited at this point.  two wars.  an economy in shambles.  etc etc almost ad infinitum.  what he needs to do right now is deal with shit.  that means getting people in place that know the process & getting legislation passed that will stop the hemorrhaging.  the easiest way to do that & be successful is to listen to ideas from all sides & figure out the ones that have the broadest consensus & get those legislated.  the absolute last thing he, or the country, needs -- or wants -- is another ideological turf war.

So, not appointing war criminals = "another ideological turf war"

Good to know!

i also think that obama is serious about the house divided argument.

And I repeatedly pointed out how the suggestions I made had no necessary relation to the goal of building a concensus  (Lugar vs. Gates, for example).

as for ideas, who's to say that obama doesn't have some of his own?  why are you assuming that he's going to get his ideas from gates or petreaus (sp?) or whoever else?

Who said I was assuming Obama didn't have ideas of his own?  What a strange thing to say!  But, OTOH, if they aren't there to have some influence on his thinking, then what are they there for? Decoration?  Sorry, but they just aren't that pretty.

as well, if you're familiar with obama's methodology, then you know that he likes to listen to people.  he might not say much himself but he will ask & ask & ask until he's got every little bit of information down.  & then he makes his decision.

And by not having progressives in the room to listen to, he cuts himself off from vital information.

but these little temper tantrums are getting old.  we're not in high school & we don't need to go waaaaa if the most popular kid in school isn't fawning over every little jot & doodle we make.

No, sorry, but it's your infantile Obama worship that's getting old.

All the above clearly indicates that you have either not read what I actually wrote, or else consciously decided you couldn't answer it, and so decided to pretend it wasn't there.  This sort of willfully blind worshipful atttitude was bad enough coming from Bushbots year after year.  It's positively nauseating hearing it come from "our side."


"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
whining != work (4.00 / 2)
it indicates that you're not getting it.  

as to your specific questions:
who says its either/or?  i just did.  we are in crises mode right now.  people are scared.  we're in the middle of two wars.  the economy is tanking.  seriously.  we're in a mess.  countries in crises cannot afford the luxury of ideology.  this is why fdr's new deal went through:  people were literally willing to try anything, so long as it worked.  

think about it:  the united states of america just elected a black democrat from chicago as its president.  that was not an ideological choice.  that was a pragmatic one.  what i'm saying is that people are not too concerned about the higher echelons of actualization; they're worried about putting food on the table.

not appointing war criminals = turf war:  do you really consider hillary clinton a war criminal?  how about bill richardson?  how about rahm emmanuel?  how about david plouffe?  & so forth?  seriously?  do you?  if so, then you're in for a rude awakening.

as well, i'm pretty sure his picks have a specific purpose.  geithner, for instance, is hardly my first pick to head the treasury.  but the immediate goal is to keep wall street from freaking out.  picking him accomplishes that.  or did you miss the 500 point rally on friday?

consensus:  like you, i personally favor the plunge method of doing things:  you can't cross a chasm in two leaps, right?  but that is not obama's style.  for whatever reason, he favors building consensus first, building bridges, getting everyone on board & so forth.  don't know that it'll work for him in the future but it seems to have worked for him in the past.

where does obama get his ideas:  that actually wasn't you but one of the commentators.  

progressives in the room:  you keep using that word "progressive"; i dunna think it means what you think it means.

obama worship.
 actually, you have me wrong here, & i mean completely wrong.  i actually think not only that you & others have the right to criticize obama & by criticize i mean right here, right now, but that he welcomes it.  that's the goal of the whole team of rivals schtick that he's on.  i personally disagreed with him on his fisa vote & i'm pretty sure that i'll disagree with him again in the future.

but the point here isn't obama.  the point is the netroots & please excuse me if i didn't properly transition from discussing obama to discussing the netroots in my earlier comment.  

what i'm thinking of is specifically the way the right wing over the past 20-30 years has been a movement rather than an interest group.  just in this past election, they bent mccain to their will & essentially forced him to pick palin over leiberman or whatshisname because they were both pro-choice.

this is what the netroots need to be able to do.  obama will be president for 8 years & by pressuring him, we can affect change, yes.  but if we get a good strong progressive movement with specific end goals & specific policies & so forth set up, we can influence a whole generation of politicians.

obama is not the savior.  i can't believe i have to tell you and david sirota that.  what part of we are the change we're waiting for do you not understand?  &, in my book at least, whining about obama the way we whined about bush jr. for the past 8 years isn't change, its not effective, & ultimately all it does is waste time & energy that we should be putting towards policy.
s.


[ Parent ]
Events are shaping Obama more than people (0.00 / 0)
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11...

This is why I find these diaries to be out of place.


[ Parent ]
true enough (0.00 / 0)
as i noted upthread, obama's hands are tied to a great extent.  his first job is to restore confidence & while i disagree with some of his picks, i can see very clearly that in several of these cases, especially treasury, he has very little choice in the matter.

axelrod responded earlier to the criticism of obama's selections.  

to wit:  
Axelrod added to Chris Wallace on "Fox News Sunday" that there will be "one person who's going to set policy in this administration, and that's the president of the United States."

"What he wants are the people ... who are most able to help advance that agenda," Axelrod said. "But the agenda will come from Barack Obama. He has a very clear sense where he wants to lead this country. The people who he's recruiting for these jobs understand what that vision is. And they wouldn't be joining the administration if they're not willing to support and advance it."

so the question then is:  do we trust obama?  i think that maybe some segments of the netroots would say no & i don't blame them.  after 8 years of triangulation from clinton & another 8 years of bait & switch by bush, trust is a difficult thing.  i'm personally cutting obama some slack, at least until we get policy details, but i can certainly understand if others aren't willing to be so generous.
s.


[ Parent ]
Listen To Yourself (0.00 / 0)
It's obvious you don't listen to me. But listen to you!

as to your specific questions:

who says its either/or?  i just did.

So, you're the ultimate authority.  Good to know.  Cause it tells me that all this stuff about how I'm a self-important twit cut off from reality is just pure projection on your part.

 we are in crises mode right now.  people are scared.  we're in the middle of two wars.  the economy is tanking.  seriously.  we're in a mess.  countries in crises cannot afford the luxury of ideology.  this is why fdr's new deal went through:  people were literally willing to try anything, so long as it worked.

But that's just it: the experimentation of one era produces lessons for the next.  Heeding those lessons is not ideology in the sense you use the term.  It's not opposed to pragmatism.  It's essential to it.

A prime example of this is what happened in 1937, when Roosevelt tried to balance the budget, because (a) he didn't have a theoretical understanding of what was wrong with old economics and (b) he didn't realize the necessity of doing much much more than he had done already.  Because we have that example today, we don't have to be as smart as Keynes to know what's wrong with not being bold enough today.

And so that's one benchmark I have for judging Obama's actions: are they bold and big enough to get the job done, given the lessons of the Great Depression and the New Deal?  The answer so far is, "No."

not appointing war criminals = turf war:  do you really consider hillary clinton a war criminal?  how about bill richardson?  how about rahm emmanuel?  how about david plouffe?  & so forth?  seriously?  do you?  if so, then you're in for a rude awakening.

Not those people.  But Gates and Brennan, who I wrote about in the fricken diary!  You have enough straw men to use up all the straw in Kansas.

consensus:  like you, i personally favor the plunge method of doing things:  you can't cross a chasm in two leaps, right?  but that is not obama's style.  for whatever reason, he favors building consensus first, building bridges, getting everyone on board & so forth.  don't know that it'll work for him in the future but it seems to have worked for him in the past.

Which is why I repeatedly made the point that he didn't have to make the specific choices he was making to build consensus.  There were/are much sounder ways to do it.  The whole point of this diary was to accept the premises laid out, and see how well Obama's actions fit with them.

where does obama get his ideas:  that actually wasn't you but one of the commentators.  

None of it was me, actually, as I've been showing all along.

progressives in the room:  you keep using that word "progressive"; i dunna think it means what you think it means.

I think it means what Digby, Glenn Greenwald, and David Sirota think it means.  People who criticized BushCo, not enabled them.  And people who criticized Clinton, too, when he continued on the path set by Ronald Reagan.

obama worship.  actually, you have me wrong here, & i mean completely wrong.  i actually think not only that you & others have the right to criticize obama & by criticize i mean right here, right now, but that he welcomes it.  that's the goal of the whole team of rivals schtick that he's on.  i personally disagreed with him on his fisa vote & i'm pretty sure that i'll disagree with him again in the future.

Well, maybe if I have you completely wrong, it's because you started it?  And, really, listneing to folks before ignoring them does not impress me all that much.  It didn't impress me when I was 5 years old, and it doesn't impress me now.  And, as I pointed out above, he can't even listen to folks that he doesn't let into the room.

So, maybe your heart's in the right place.  But you are far too gullible in taking Obama at his word, and far too I-don't-know-what in totally garbling what David and I and others like us are saying.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
chill, yo (0.00 / 0)
your personal attacks are neither warranted nor effective.  all they do is make you look like a spoiled brat.  this goes double for david in that other thread where he taunted a commentator by telling him to quit posting.

ya'll seriously need to step away from the keyboard & chill.

peace out.
s.


[ Parent ]
Jane, You Ignorant Slut! (0.00 / 0)
Now, that's a personal attack.

What I wrote before was a cogent rational response.  Obviously you can't handle that.

Too bad.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
What's The What? | 56 comments
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