What Is Conservatism? Conservatives Have No Idea

by: Daniel De Groot

Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 11:00


As a starting point for defining conservatism, and nailing down what the real atomic core of conservatism is, I started by asking:  What do conservatives think it is?  How do they answer this question?

It turns out, they don't really know.  Their efforts to define it are worth studying though, partly because the answers they provide are revealing, but also because their own failure to find an answer satisfactory even just to themselves points to the need for outsiders to step in and provide the answers conservatives can't or won't face.  

Daniel De Groot :: What Is Conservatism? Conservatives Have No Idea
Let's start with the definition provided by Conservapedia.  Since they exist to recast the history of the whole world from a conservative viewpoint, they must have some insight to offer, how else could they function?


A conservative is one who adheres to principles of limited government, personal responsibility and moral virtue. A conservative would likely agree with the statement in George Washington's Farewell Address that "religion and morality are indispensable supports" to political prosperity.[1] Conservatism arose in the 19th century as a response to liberalism, particularly as manifested in the French Revolution.[2]

Not really satisfactory.  Instead of a definition, we get a laundry list that could apply to a lot of people who are not conservative.  Liberals believe in limits to government, personal responsibility and being moral/virtuous too.  They perhaps define those things differently, but as a definition we are clearly far from getting at the essence of what conservativism is.  It is as if we have defined a tiger as "an animal with fur, claws and teeth."  Sure, we've narrowed the field a bit, but if you had never seen a tiger, this wouldn't really tell you how to identify one.  The other items in that description are really non-sequitur and even less helpful in defining conservativism (and their take on the origins of conservatism is just wrong but too big a digression to address here).

You may accuse me of being facetious or unfair for starting with Conservapedia.  Don't worry, we're going to get to some more respected conservative theorists and philosophers, and the problems will be much the same here.  What is remarkable is that none of the big brains of the right do any better than Schlafly's minions.

Self described conservative John Dean actually spends some time on the topic of how conservatives have failed to define their beliefs in his 2006 book Conservatives Without Conscience.  His findings?


conservativism cannot be meaningfully defined [...] even leading conservative intellectuals acknowledge that trying to define conservativism is a futile and not particularly useful exercise. (p2)

To address their difficulties in reaching a definition, some conservative scholars have tried to explain the problem away like so:


"Leading conservative scholars reject the notion that their thinking or beliefs can be described as an ideology.  For conservative scholar Frank Meyer, for example, it is heterodoxy to conclude that the 'American conservative movement' is anything but just that, 'a movement.'" [...] "Similarly, conservative intellectual icon russel Kirk has [...] [refused] to classify conservativism as an ideology. [...] Michael Oakenshott, another prominent conservative political philosopher, has remarked that 'conservativism is not so much an ideology as it is a disposition to enjoy the fruits of the past and to distrust novelty.'" (pp4-5)

You can see Kirk's thoughts online:


Being neither a religion nor an ideology, the body of opinion termed conservatism possesses no Holy Writ and no Das Kapital to provide dogmata. So far as it is possible to determine what conservatives believe, the first principles of the conservative persuasion are derived from what leading conservative writers and public men have professed during the past two centuries.

Not an ideology?  Dean again:


[...] asserting that conservativism is not an ideology is, of course, sophistry. (p5)

The recent debate on ideology online should have at least made clear that a defition of "ideology" that excluded conservatism would be patently absurd.  Little more than another attempt to coopt "realism" or "pragmatism" as concepts somehow isolated and distinct from foolish ideology and give conservatism a definitional advantage: Conservatives believe in proven ideas, while ideology is about experimenting with untested notions.  No, conservatism must be an ideology or the word has no meaning.

Kirk further changes the subject to define conservatives instead of conservatism:


[...] It is almost true that a conservative may be defined as a person who thinks himself such.[...]

In essence, the conservative person is simply one who finds the permanent things more pleasing than Chaos and Old Night. (Yet conservatives know, with Burke, that healthy "change is the means of our preservation.") A people's historic continuity of experience, says the conservative, offers a guide to policy far better than the abstract designs of coffee-house philosophers. But of course there is more to the conservative persuasion than this general attitude.

Without rebuting this in detail, resorting first to a change of subject and then coming up with a self-referential definition should highlight how tricky a problem this has proven for conservative scholars.  After all, one can reasonably define Christianity without worrying about who Christians are.  Even if your definition of Christianity is self-serving, you at least have one.

It turns out the notion that conservatism is not an ideology is not widely accepted among conservative thinkers, Dean again:


National Review, The American Spectator, Human Events, The Weekly Standard and the American Conservative have all called conservativism an ideology. (p6)

The picture so far is that conservatives know that conservatism is difficult to define.  They tried to hand-wave that away, but found that effort not satisfactory.  So they are forced to accept that some definition must exist, and look for it.  What did they find?

Goldwater via Dean:


Goldwater's refined definition from The Conscience of a Majority (1970) "the solution to the problems of today can be found in the proven values of the past." (p17)

Which values?  How were they "proven"?  And what are the "problems of today"?  Goldwater has simply dodged the question.  Even in 1970 this definition is poor.  By 1970, Social Security had been operating successfully for 35 years.  How is it not a "proven value of the past" then?  How old does the proof have to be before conservatives would accept the New Deal and adopt it into conservatism?  If that isn't an old enough example, 1970s conservatives were still battling the Declaration of Independence:


"[George H.] Nash admits that the Declaration was 'troublesome' for the early conservatives, and reports that one scholar suggested conservatives should claim that, in fact, the Declaration's egalitarian ethos had not been carried over to the Constitution; rather, that the Declaration was just that, a declaration and not a governing document." (p13)

Any claim that conservatism is about using well established ideas and rejecting new and untried things is problematic.  Contemporary and past conservatives have been battling some ideas that are centuries old for a very long time with no signs of stopping.

The efforts to define it only get worse:


Jonah Goldberg "has acknowledged the contradictions within modern conservativism.  [...] 'The beauty of the conservative movement is that we all understand and accept the permanence of contradiction [in thinking]' (p28)


Horowitz says "conservativism [is] an attitude about the lessons of the actual past.  By contrast, the attention of progressives [is] directed toward an imagined future.  Conservativism [is] an attitude of caution based on a strong sense of human limits and what politics [can] accomplish" (p34)


Safire admits he has five different republican "factions" in his head and admits it causes him "cognitive dissonance" and says he experiences "the jangling of competing inclinations, with the owner of the brain having to work out trade-offs, suppressions and compromises until he or she achieves a kind of puzzled tranquility within."  Safire said his dissonance is 'forced into harmony by the need to choose one leader who reflects the preponderance of' his views.' (p19)

Even the vaunted Buckley provides no relief:


National review editor Johan Goldberg hinted that Buckley has made a career of looking for a definition of conservativism but has not really succeeded (p3)

Where does this leave us?  If you are looking for conservatives to tell you what conservatism is, you will evidently be waiting a long time.  They either don't know, or don't like the answers they find and search vainly for more flattering answers.   While the former is perhaps the answer conservatives would prefer as an explanation, it is not really reassuring.  Some may be tempted to resort to tu quoque and claim that liberalism has the same definitional problems.

Firstly, I don't think that's true.  However since I am not attempting to spell out that definition here, let's assume it is for sake of argument.  Aside from the weakness of dodging the issue through an ad hominem argument (you are no less a criminal if another thief points out your crimes), it is a bigger problem for conservatism to lack a definition than liberalism.  Conservatives believe in rigorous, bright line black and white thinking.  They reject relativism and other forms of "mushy" distinctions.  Thus, if they accept that conservativsm has no coherent definition, they are adopting a liberal intellectual stance to resolve this.  Liberalism accepts quandaries, paradoxes and no-right-answer scenarios.  Liberalism may not have a coherent definition either, but then, liberalism may not even require that it does.  Are conservatives really going to seek refuge in post-modernism?  How Zen.  Finally, since conservatives are so convinced they have the superior methodology and proven ideas, it should worry them that even they are unable to explain what the method really is or which ideas were proven.  This may leave them no-worse than liberalism, but open to attack from Marxists or even Objectivists who have no problem defining what they believe in a finite space.

If we want answers about what conservativism is, we will have to look elsewhere.  I hope to shed some light on this, and also address what I think Liberalism is really about too.    


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Interesting discussion (4.00 / 2)
Until I got to the last paragraph, I was musing on the thought that liberals probably can't do any better at defining what we believe.
I've actually been saying for some time that those who like to call themselves conservative today would actually be better defined as corporatists.  They put the interest of capital above all other values in all circumstances.  For, example, how can one square the various attempted definitions of conservatism above with the fanatical determination to destroy as much of the natural world as possible as fast as possible?  Simply reading the definitions proposed would make one think that all conservatives would naturally be environmentalists - prefering to preserve what has existed for a long time, rather than casually destroy it.

I've been using an alternate way of looking at things, which is this - and I don't have terminology for it:
That the great ideological divide in the world is no longer (if it ever was) liberal vs. conservative, but is rather a divide between those who believe that the only value is market price vs. those who think there is some higher value than that.


Liberalism (4.00 / 3)
is the idea that people have the right to have some input in those decisions that affect their lives.

Conservativism is the idea that those decisions are best made by the elite, either religious or financial.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
Certainly, conservatism has (4.00 / 3)
descended to us at least partly from the Tory politics of Britain, which were oriented toward protecting and increasing the power of the gentry, the aristocracy, and the crown.  So there is some historical support for what you say.

[ Parent ]
Conservatism as a rather simple lie (4.00 / 3)

If we want answers about what conservativism is, we will have to look elsewhere.  I hope to shed some light on this, and also address what I think Liberalism is really about too.

One could argue -- as a leftist, I certainly would -- that conservatism is nothing more complicated than the ostrich fans employed to cover the naked advantages of a certain class -- the propertied class -- and to hide them from all comers, especially those from below. Its romance in this country with the so-called social conservatives is purely an electoral tactic, employed only because the propertied class needs X number of rubes to vote for them if they're to stay in power. (Which is why I found the Sarah Palin candidacy so interesting. She actually thought, or appeared to think, that the rubes had taken over the party. God knows, what with the purging of RINOS and all, it did indeed look for a moment as though she might be right. I wondered at the time if William Kristol had been troubled by fleeting thoughts of what had happened to von Hindenburg, not to mention the Krupps and Bayers, after 1933. I concluded that he was probably too ignorant, and definitely too stupid, i.e too lacking in introspection, to be troubled by much of anything. All the better for us, right?)

So, conservatism is problematic, because -- at least as practiced in this country -- it's a lie. QED ;-) Now then, on to a definition of liberalism, eh what?


I tend to agree (4.00 / 2)
I think it is a rather elaborate lie, rather than a simple one. I suppose all lies become simple once they are revealed, much like Holmes' inferences became simple once he explained to Watson how he had deduced them.  

My purpose in the section about social security and the Declaration was to reveal that the conservative preoccupation with "proven ideas" and "what works" is clearly at least inconsistent, and more likely entirely self-serving.

I was trying to stay away from my own ideas about conservativism and just establish that conservative thinkers really have a very poor grasp of what drives them even at their very best.  I hope that much got through.


[ Parent ]
Poor Articulation, Not Poor Grasp (4.00 / 3)
conservative thinkers really have a very poor grasp of what drives them even at their very best.

It's all about staying on top, and they have a rather excellent grasp of it, I rather think.  They just can't quite put it so bluntly in mixed company, nowdays, that's all.

Except of course, when it comes to blasting the bejesus out of dark-skinned furriners.  (Thank God for dark-skinned furriners, it lets a man come clean about what he believes!)

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
"It's all about staying on top" (4.00 / 6)
Conservatives have a hard time explaining what conservatism is, because, if explained accurately, it would be rejected by almost everyone.

They either don't know, or don't like the answers they find and search vainly for more flattering answers.

Exactly.

Conservatism was born in reaction to the liberal ideals of the Enlightenment as a rationalization for maintaining a ruling class. It has never changed. The rationalizations shift and morph to fit changing political and economic conditions, but the driving motivation remains unchanged.

There are generally two classes of conservatives:

Those who fall for the rationalizations while being blind to the motivation

and

Those who embrace the motivation but are smart enough not to "put it so bluntly in mixed company."

miasmo.com


[ Parent ]
Indeed it did (4.00 / 3)
But I'm an impatient sort; I like to cut to the chase. You and Paul are doing the heavy lifting here, and my hat's off to both of you. It being New Year's Day, I'm sticking to a glass of port, a bowl of black-eyed peas and ham hocks, and restricting myself to a bit of kibitzing. My respect to i miglior' fabbri, nevertheless....

[ Parent ]
A definition which appeals to (4.00 / 2)
"what works" begs the question of what the goal is.  

If "what works" as the solution to any given problem is a part of conservatism, then conservatives are trying to make conservatism synonymous with empiricism.  However, empiricism includes the idea of exploring unknown areas of knowledge using the principles of empiricism, which when actualized in a technical setting are roughly equivalent to the scientific method.  Nothing is being "conserved" in this context.  

On the other hand, in a political situation, before there can be any determination of "what works," or of what has worked in the past, the goal of activity must be established. It is the accomplishment of the goal which must be the determinant of the efficacy of the policy. As others on this thread have pointed out, the goal of conservatism is the hoarding of power by the upper classes, so that they may "conserve" their privilege and their "way of life".


[ Parent ]
Conservative post-modernists (4.00 / 3)
Actually, today's conservatism is far more postmodernist than liberalism is, as Josh pointed out five years ago:

http://www.washingtonmonthly.c...


Indeed! This Reminds Me (4.00 / 5)
I forgot to mention this in my comment below: One way to make considerably more sense of conservatism is to think of it in terms of anti-liberalism, as Stephen Holmes described in his book, The Anatomy of Antiliberalism .  Anti-liberalism as Holmes describes it actually includes a wide range of arguments adopted by people all across the political spectrum, including post-modernists, as well as all manner of mutually-contradictory conservatives, communitarians, etc.

One can, I think, profitably regard conservatism as the organized epicenter of anti-liberalism.  The other folks who adopt anti-liberal arguments that conservatives don't trust are simply excluded by ignoring or demonizing them.

The various contradictory strains of conservatism, then, are simply the species of anti-liberal ideology that agreed to let each other stay in the tent.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
William Beat Me To It, So Let Me Just Add (4.00 / 4)
First of all, this is great diary to kick off 2009 with.  So bravo!

Second, I think we need to take William's point quite seriously.  It helps to explain some of the key contradictions we otherwise get.  It explains, for example, why some ideas, documents and instutions just never seem to qualify for conservative veneration, no matter how long they've been around, while others are cheerfully embraced that never even actually ever existed: any tradition that props up the propertied class gets embraced, any one that doesn't gets the boot--unless it can be re-engineered.

Third, however, I think there's a further point that can be made about "pragmatism"/not being an ideology.  This basically goes back to the time when modern conservatism, as defined by Burke, was invented.  And basically, it was somewhat accurate.  The liberals were thinking up all these new ideas--even though, when you looked closely (i.e. at all) you found that they went all the way back to the Greeks and the Romans.  And the people thinking them up were individuals.  Well, we all know how often folks think they're so smart, especially when they're young whippersnappers, only to be humbled by life its own self. So the original proposal seemed (again, if you didn't look to closely) to be somewhat reasonable: trust what's proven to work, and don't put much stock in the latest intellectual gee-gaws.

This is, of course, a rough-hewn ideology of its own.  But it's an ideology that identifies ideology as an infatuation with new-fangled curious, which is why it can't be an ideology.

Isn't self-referential contradiction fun?

The technical term for this is bullshit.  Which is perfectly fine, because conservatives are folks who basically think that all ideas are bullshit, which is why it really doesn't bother them so much, down deep, that their ideas are bullshit.  For them, all ideas are bullshit.  So what's the big deal?

You betcha!

Of course, even in Burke's day, liberalism was a whole lot more than a bunch of fad-mongers in ideas.  The Enlightenment was not a fad.  Nor were the Reformation or the Renaisance before it, all three of which crucial in establishing the foundations of modern liberalism.  But there were a bunch of new ideas or new expressions of old ideas that could be quite bewildering to peers of the realm who liked their ideas in books that were older than their mothers.

Since then, of course, things have changed drastically, but particularly in two regards.  First, the sheer mass of political theorizing and related practice, including institution-building on a mass scale, makes it impossible to pretend that conservsatisms ideological other is merely the prattling along of individual coffeehouse intellectuals.  Hence the shift from the Burkean trope to the sociological attack on such people as a group--which gets great mileage at the polling booth (or, at least did until the contempt for thinking damn near destroyed the country these last few years), but pretty much abandon's Burke's original distinction.  Second, the rise of the business class in the late 19th Century has made American conservatism perversely wedded to the very progress that Burke taught conservatives should despise.  Or at least the non-Southern strain of conservatism.

Anyway, these twin developments have rendered obsolete Burke's original rational for dubbing cosnervatism as non-ideological and pragmatic, as opposed to the individualist, ideological, ungrounded liberals.  So others today simply cling to his rationale because it's old and that's what conservatives do with something that suits them, or else they ignore it--and promulgate new product lines of conservative ideology in a seemingly deliberate act of mocking the very essence of Burke's original argument.  Conservatism by Barry Goldwater. Conservatism by Ronald Reagan.  Conservatism by Newt Gingrich.  Conservatism by W Bush.  Every single one of these is the sort of slap-dash intellectual (in the loosest of senses) enterprises that Burke sneered at, trying to portray them as the entirety of non-conservative, ideological thought.  

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


you gotta admire those conservative politicians (4.00 / 3)
100% situational .. able to flipflop like a circus star .. overturning bedrock principles in a single bound .. grabbing power, using whatever it takes - except concern for the greater good.

[ Parent ]
Good definition of conservatism and what's wrong with it. (4.00 / 6)
Philip E. Agre wrote a great definition in 2004 http://polaris.gseis.ucla.edu/... What Is Conservatism and What Is Wrong with It?

His opening defines it

Liberals in the United States have been losing political debates to conservatives for a quarter century. In order to start winning again, liberals must answer two simple questions: what is conservatism, and what is wrong with it? As it happens, the answers to these questions are also simple:

   Q: What is conservatism?
   A: Conservatism is the domination of society by an aristocracy.

   Q: What is wrong with conservatism?
   A: Conservatism is incompatible with democracy, prosperity, and civilization in general. It is a destructive system of inequality and prejudice that is founded on deception and has no place in the modern world.

These ideas are not new. Indeed they were common sense until recently. Nowadays, though, most of the people who call themselves "conservatives" have little notion of what conservatism even is. They have been deceived by one of the great public relations campaigns of human history. Only by analyzing this deception will it become possible to revive democracy in the United States

The essay is well worth reading.  


maybe outdated? (4.00 / 1)
Sarah Palin is many things, but an aristocrat?

[ Parent ]
Perhaps she's a (4.00 / 2)
servant of the aristocracy? Would that redeem the quote?

And maybe I'm missing something, but which societies aren't dominated by an aristocracy? Isn't the definition of that group of people who dominate a society 'an aristocracy'?


[ Parent ]
in some ways, but not in others (4.00 / 1)
I see Palinism as proud know-nothingism. That's why the "thinkers" of conservatism like David Brooks, Kathleen Parker or Chris Buckley were and are so horrified of her.  

[ Parent ]
"know-nothingism" (4.00 / 5)
Know-nothingism is a trojan horse to sell policies and attitudes that support a ruling class. No one did a better job of promoting know-nothingism than David "Applebees salad bar" Brooks. Until, that is, he became spooked by the realization that, with Palin, the monster had broken out of the lab and was on a rampage through the village.

miasmo.com

[ Parent ]
They Don't Know "Frankenstein" They Don't Know "Ozymandius" (4.00 / 3)
What sort of intellectuals are they are, anyway?

I mean, Frankenstein is everything from a comic book to dozens of different movies. "Ozymandius" is just 14 lines.  You knock them both off in an afternoon--a half-hour, really, if you opt for the comic book--and still have plenty of time for a couple of chapters of Atlas Shrugged, and 2 or 3 episodes of "24".

What's the what?

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
There is no "u" in Ozymandias (0.00 / 0)
'nuff said

[ Parent ]
Aristocracy (4.00 / 1)
is hereditary.  The son of the Earl becomes the next Earl.  Even the second son may be a Lord, or at least a titled gentleman (he is "Sir" so and so). The people who dominate an aristocracy are aristocrats, but the people who dominate a non-aristocracy are not aristocrats.  Even if they have come to their dominance primarily by inheriting it, calling them aristocrats is only a metaphor.

[ Parent ]
I don't know what the hell Sarah Palin is, (0.00 / 0)
but she's clearly not an aristocrat.  In fact, her lack of class credentials seems to be what makes it possible for some conservatives to be horrified by her.

It's pretty clear that she is some species of autocrat, though.  Remember when she was told that she didn't have the right to spend a large sum of money on re-decorating the mayor's office for the second time, and she responded, "I can do anything I want to, unless the Supreme Court tells me I can't"?  That's a lot like the local baron saying, "I can do whatever I want unless the King tells me I can't".  

Aristocrats tend to be autocrats, especially if they are the title-holders, but autocracy is only one of the attributes of an aristocrat.


[ Parent ]
She's a card carrying member of the (4.00 / 1)
Religious Right. The Moral Elite that knows best.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
A classic (4.00 / 3)
I'll be pulling from it when I get to working on a description of conservativism that doesn't rely on their own self-serving definitions.

[ Parent ]
An Historical Note (4.00 / 5)
I was a suscriber to Agre's Red Rock Eater News Service when he wrote that--which was somewhat earlier than 2004, IIRC, as Agre published early versions of several important papers on the list.  I brought it up at MyDD during the post-2004 discussion of ideology that Chris lead, and Chris picked up on it.  It became the first document we discussed in the unfortunately short-lived MyDD "book discussion" forum.

I also brought it up at Unclaimed Territory, in early 2006, and Glenn rejected it heartily, calling Agre "a hack."  I demurred, and went off to write a diary series on  conservatism as identity politics, figuring that Glenn would come around sooner or later--probably sooner if I didn't directly press the point.  A year or so later, I brough it up in comments at a seemingly opportune time, and Glenn agreed that he had come around to seeing things Agre's way.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Interesting conundrum (4.00 / 1)
If I'm reading you right, you are suggesting that conservatism is an ideology without an ideology! My working definition of conservatism has been WIlliam F. Buckley's founding statement of the National Review:

It stands athwart history, yelling Stop.

As you point out, though, this isn't an ideology. At best, it's a sort of romantic churlishness. At worst, ... well, let's not go there.

Although not an ideology, I think it does provide a working definition of conservatives, and helps explain why someone like Rudy G. is so popular with so many conservatives: He pisses off liberals. That, for conservatives, is what civic engagement is all about.  


It's an ideology (4.00 / 4)
All I am trying to establish with this piece is that their thinkers are unable or unwilling to correctly identify what the ideology really is about.  I prefer the "unwilling" explanation since the real answers are not hard to find when you look at what conservatism does with power and work back to the motives from that.

[ Parent ]
ignore all (0.00 / 0)
the bull twaddle from romantics like Kirk. Conservatism today is not too hard to define,

The business wing: corporate & individualistic greed, dominance bullying  

The theocratic wing: authoritarian social control, permanent grievance & feeling persecuted


The common thread? (4.00 / 3)
They are our betters and therefore deserve to rule over us. The rich because they are richer, the theocrats because they are more pious. Everything else is just window dressing.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
Hm. Off the top of my head, (4.00 / 1)
seems that conservatism has something to do with the promotion of privileges that one imagines a privileged class held two generations ago in one's culture.

Husbands were privileged vis a vis wives not just in the ability to commit marital rape, but also--because 'imagines' is key--because they were wiser and stronger than their wives. Straights could ignore or beat gays. Blacks knew their place. The rich were lauded for the act of being rich. The threat of the unproven New Deal loomed large. America astride the globe.

This would mean that 'conservatives' in Russia will push for the return of Communism. Which seems about right.

But maybe the definition is too fuzzy, due to that 'imagines.' Because who imagines? Conservatives imagine. Which gets self-referential again like Kirk ... but maybe that's a feature, not a bug.  


"Conservatism" in America (4.00 / 1)
was no more than the Southernization of Right Wing politics, with the requisite hatred of blacks et. al. and Baptist fundamentalism.

"Conservatives" won't tell you that because they are savvy enough at rhetoric not to admit that.

But they know exactly what it is.

Real conservatism on the other hand can be summed up in rather simple concepts: there is no such thing as a free lunch; and if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Does that sound like the American Right to you?


What Is Conservatism? Ask A Brotha (4.00 / 2)
It doesn't surprise me that most people who DEFINE themselves as conservatives can't even tell you what it means. As a Black progressive in America, my observation of "conservatives" is that they can tell you more easily what they're AGAINST than what they're FOR.

How's this for a list? 1) Anti-Black (you can't be a conservative without being anti-Black). 2) Anti-immigration (meaning anti-brown-skinned "feriners", especially ones who might vote for "libruls" and take jobs away from more deserving "hard-working whites"). 3) Anti-gay-marriage (this really could've been #1; the gay "lifestyle" which, of course, is a CHOICE, COULD turn ME gay! Wait a minute, I AM gay behind closed doors! Plus, they're not Christians and it's just not "natural", is it?). 4) Anti-environment (it only exists to be exploited, not to be enjoyed by or preserved for all). 5) Anti-progress (America was best in the 50s, either the 1950s or the 1850s, take your pick. 1950s = segregation; 1850s = slavery). 6) Anti-Muslim (they're "feriners", they don't worship a white Ja-hee-zus, and they're brown-skinned, too, which is the trifecta). 7) Anti-poor (this really could've been #1 too; "I aspire to be rich even though I'm DEFINITELY not so don't pass any FDR-type "big-government" stuff for ME OR OTHERS."). 8) Anti-regulation (how dare you put laws on the books that prevent us from lining our pockets without anybody watching??) 9) Anti-government (this goes all the way back to the post-Civil-War occupation of the South by the North. "Yankees, go home!"). 10) Anti-peace ("The way you solve all problems is with war...War on "Terror", War on Drugs. In other words, War on the American people. But don't forget to tell 'em it's good for 'em.")

LOL. Did I forget anything? ;^)

Peace and Happy New Year!
Olmecmystic


If we're going to dig out the Burke... (0.00 / 0)
and Oakeshott, it's worth noting that "classical Manchester liberals" had very strong free-trade, pro-market economic views. Which of course is part of the US conservative identity problem, as they've soaked up something which is historically "liberalism."

Manchester liberals did not believe in 'Free Trade' (4.00 / 1)
Not at least when it came to their own products. They were perfectly happy to sponsor policies that suppressed fabric production in for example India. Their concept of 'free trade' was no restrictions on imports of commodities because the cheaper the cost of cotton, iron and food the lower their production costs would be. That this kind of 'free trade' wreaked havoc on domestic production of commodities and so employment was not their problem. In fact it just created a pot of cheaper labor.

And of course the same dynamic is playing out today. 'Free traders' have no compunction whatsoever in enforcing monopolies through patent and copyright protection, for them the definition of 'free' comes somewhere at the intersection of 'me' and 'thee'. With them on the 'me' side.

Of course I don't need to say this. Because all of you are reading Dean Baker on a daily business. Right?


[ Parent ]
I don't think there is Conservatism (0.00 / 0)
There are conservatisms. Of the top of my head I can think of five types (imperialism, contempt for the poor, contempt for intellectuals, prioritisation of capital above all else and unthinking resistance to change) and there may well be more.

One can subscribe to several or indeed all of these, but I don't buy that they form a coherent whole. At the bottom of it all, I see little more than "Fuck you! I know better than you!" as its core message.

That said, I don't see leftist positions as a coherent whole. There are coherent wholes within it, but you can equally do what I do, and merely cobble together an ideology with little internal consistency by borrowing bits from liberalism, socialism, libertarianism and all the other traditions.

Forgotten Countries - a foreign policy-focused blog


I Think The Key Point Here (4.00 / 1)
is that various left positions are relatively coherently defined.  The ability to mix and match elements from different ones is, in fact, dependent on that fact.  (How can you mix French and Thai cuisine, after all, if neither of them has any defined meaning?)

This may also be true for right positions in Europe, but it certainly is not true of them here in America, which is the point of this diary.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Some of them are (4.00 / 1)
Imperialism (in the non-Leninist sense) and market fundamentalism both have some coherence to their thought.

The former is essentially represented by neo-conservatism now and the latter is the Mitt Romney wing.

Certainly, the practical rather than academic exercises of these doctrines are far from pure - witness Samuel Huntingdon's incoherence in trying to postulate a clash of civilisations, and the sanguine attitude of business conservatives to huge and inefficient corporate handouts - but there is a measure of theory there.

I don't think that's true for the other three options, because they rely in the final analysis on hatred, fear and stupidity, and I think you have a point in as far as those are the elements which are used to sell imperialism and market fundamentalism.

But I still think the premises that money gives power or that group X should dominate the world have ideological coherence (if not empirical worth). It's just that they're truly terrible positions to hold.

Forgotten Countries - a foreign policy-focused blog


[ Parent ]
Okay, Clarification Time (4.00 / 3)
Dan's starting point is talking about conservatives as a whole, with liberals as an unstated alternative.  The problem here is the lack of coherence among them.  You're quite right that there is coherence among some subsets.  But that's just the problem.  How to knit the subsets together.  American liberals have this problem pragmatically as well, but they don't have it theoretically.  You've further complicated this above by talking about "the left", but unfortunately, that's not much of a factor here in the colonies.

Your last paragraph, I agree with 100%.  And I think Dan would, too.  It's why they need a better cover story, but can't ever quite agree on what it should be.  Look, in the sky!  There's a crooked Democratic governor!

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Conservatism = always being on the side of the powerful (4.00 / 2)
It's the only thing that really links the "conservative" view on all the different issues. Think about the GOP agenda:

- military aggression against developing countries

- union-busting

- tax cuts for the rich

- de-regulation of business

- opposition to universal health care

- draconian prison sentences for petty criminals and victimless crimes

- mandatory pregnancy

- institutionalized bigotry against gays

and so on and so forth. These all have on thing in common: whenever there is some kind of conflict, conservatives back the more powerful side.  


Precisely. Conservatism under its various guises (4.00 / 2)
is hierarchial paternalism.  In each of the cases you mention, the leader or top dog is defined as the "father" or patrone, to whom everyone with less status owes unquestioning loyalty because he is in charge.  Whatever criticism is made of him is "disloyalty", which his inferiors "owe" to him, again, solely because he is in charge.  After all, there's no argument about who should be the father in a family, is there?  Fatherhood is a fact, and you must do what the father says, because he is the father.

From this perspective, conservatism is a type of arrested development or infantilism.  The conservative lingers in this attitude in the hope that if he admits that the issues in the adult world are too hard for him, the father-figure will solve his problems for him.  And if outsiders cause trouble for the conservative, the father-figure will go and beat them up.  William Kristol is a classic case of this.  


[ Parent ]
What is Conservatism...or liberism (0.00 / 0)
I would define Conservatism as, "The belief that a social status quo is both possible and desirable, and that social norms and values are absolute and dictated by dogmatic beliefs."

Conversely, Liberalism would be, "The belief that a social status quo is impossible, and that progress is inevitable. Likewise, social norms and values are not absolute, and change collectively as society evolves."

I don't think "tax & spend," the size of government, or specific views on current issues pertains in any significant way.  How you view an issue does not define you, and how a certain group views an issue doe not define THEM.  (I could argue almost any issue from either viewpoint.)

The inherent differences begin and end with the acceptance or rejection of the basic idea that change is inevitable.  


I don't entirely agree (4.00 / 3)
Conservatives don't accept the status quo.  If they did, they'd accept Roe and Social security as faits accomplis.  They've spent a lot of time and energy trying to undo both, and I tend to think they're serious about it.

I'm more in agreement in that conservatives don't believe that "things can be better" overall.  It's a zero-sum world, so they'd rather make sure they keep their disproportionately large share, since any change to that can only mean they're worse off, and the overall system is unchanged.


[ Parent ]
Status Quo (0.00 / 0)
In the realm of history, Roe and Social Security have barely foot prints.  I am a Progressive, and, Daniel, this argument is bound for failure. Conservatives have never accepted these issues. They have merely tolerated them. Just because they have stayed alive for three-quarters and just over one-quarter century does not make them time-tested by any stretch. That said, I love the article; just work out the logic hear to make your position stronger and more defensible.  

[ Parent ]
consevatism is evolving because it is political (0.00 / 0)
    I think conservative used to mean people who didn't spend much money. People who could live a full life with little material were conservative. Then it evolved into governments who could get by by spending little. Once it got into the political stream its meaning changes every 10 or more years as people redefine it for political purposes.I think for a while conservatives wanted no change then social conservatives showed up and wanted to reverse change that has already happened.

All the discussions (0.00 / 0)
describe conservatism as a rationale not an ideology per se.  I think Daniel actually nails it:
conservatism must be an ideology or the word has no meaning . . .
 

From the various attempts at definition by conservatives themselves, it would seem that the underlying motivation of conservative thought is aversion to change or even the potential for change. Obviously, fear of perceived change results from feelings of vulnerability or a fear of personal loss.  Based on the contradictions Daniel points out, it would also appear that appeals to the certainty of the past versus the unknowable future are really independent of time or any particular point in the past, but in reality refer to the justify the status quo--a desire to keep things the way they presently are.  One who embraces conservatism is like a person standing on an insubstantial floor, afraid to move in any direction lest the floor fall out from under them.  The only safe choice is not to move at all and to resist by any means possible any pressure to make a move.  Seeking to find a set of principles or a body of beliefs that defines or embodies Conservative Thought is, therefore, unachievable- conservatism is whatever it needs to be to rationalize no change - no movement in any direction except to cement the present in place. Conservatism has no meaning, but paradoxically, Conservatism also means whatever it needs to to justify no change.

So maybe one needs to return to the question of ideology and WHY one wishes to establish an ideology of conservative or progressive in the first place.  Perhaps discussion could more productively center on the underlying cognitive differences between progressives and conservatives?  Fear of change vs. willingness to accept change and how that difference in cognition is manipulated to produce social or cultural outcomes.


Exactly (4.00 / 1)
The entire discussion of "ideology" on this site has been absurd and aimless.  The current discussion takes it one step further into the abyss.

Most people who self-identify as conservatives will acknowledge certain views:

-Limited government (something close to "enumerated powers" and rejection of government for the general "common good")
-Constitutional literalism
-Belief in a certain vision of the "free market"
-Low taxes
-Establishing certain religious/moral principles into law, mainly having to do with sex
Self-reliance for the poor
-Exceptionalist and unilateralist foreign policy.

There may be more elements, and they may be phrased slightly differntly, but the themes are simple and easily recognizable.  There are no common psychological or philosophical threads that tie these views together.  For all the talk of these views as aristocratic, actual conservatives believe in the populism of Palin and Huckabee, and believe that the free market empowers individuals.  

The only element that strings these themes together is history - that the Republican party has constructed a coalition of a number of divergent demographics.

The discussion is backwards.  Conservatism isn't an ideology.  There isn't any benefit or reason to treat it as an ideology.  There isn't any reason to investigate underlying cognitive differences between the largely inconsistent positions of liberals and conservatives.  It is an aimless, wasteful exercise from the start.


[ Parent ]
But Huckabee and Palin (4.00 / 2)
are members of the Religious Right priesthood (one branch of the aristocracy) and the "free market" exists only to empower the rich (the other branch of the aristocracy).

Sorry but you can't get away from it. Conservativism is the apologetics of aristocrats.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
Seems to me that the only way (0.00 / 0)
for you to have discovered that "there isn't any benefit or reason to treat" conservatism as an ideology is to have already gone through the "exercise" yourself.  If that's the case, then why not share the data from this experiment with those of us who haven't yet reached your conclusion? In other words, help us to reach the payoff you reached.

I do think that your approach, which if I understand it correctly, is to ask, instead of "What is conservatism?" to ask instead, "What are the principles of conservatism?" is quite possibly a more productive one in terms of polemics.  But assuming you are right in saying, "The only element that strings these themes together is history - that the Republican party has constructed a coalition of a number of divergent demographics," investigating the coherence or non-coherence of these "themes" or principles can have a payoff in that it can allow us to highlight the incoherence and contradictions among them. Making the exercise not so aimless.

If you don't see this as a benefit to us, then do you simply think that reasoning with conservatives is pointless, because of the meaninglessness to them of the incoherence of their political construct?  If so, I have a certain amount of sympathy with that opinion.


[ Parent ]
I'm frankly in the dark as to what (0.00 / 0)
the goal is.  Let me explain why, by way of example.  Take the Catholic Church.

The Catholic Church has liberal positions (eg, forgiving third world debt, critiquing capitalism, anti-death penalty) and conservative positions (eg, abortion, women's role in the world, gay marriage). Perhaps we could condense the Catholic Church into a couple sentences or psycholoical proclivities. What would that do for us, if the goal was to reform or confront the church most effectively?

If I decided, or proved, that people in structured religions were in some way maladapted in clinging to hierarchy, what could I do about that?  It would be difficult and unhealthy to offer them an alternative hierarchy.  I can't send them all to therapy.  I can marginalize them by calling them out on their mental problems, but that's going to be ugly and quite possibly counterproductive.  

Or, if I proved that the entire Catholic church was built around the common thread of fear and disdain for female sexuality, how would that be useful?  Misygony is already pretty apparent in many positions that I can confront directly, one by one - how would revealing underpinnings of misygony in the Catholic anti-capital punishment stance be helpful to me?  Do I want to adopt an anti-woman tone to trick them into supporting better policies?  Given my position as an outsider, how confident could I be that my reductionist conclusion would be accurate anyway?  

How, exactly, would referring to this framework be MORE useful than confronting each issue on the merits, in isolation?  

Or, to return this to the current discussion, it has been argued that conservativism is about maintaining an aristocracy.  I would agree only to the extent that the effect (not the rhetoric) of Republican policies is generally to maintain and increase inequality of wealth.  

I don't see the framework as useful, since the rank and file conservative, who is not part of the elite, probably honestly believes that conservative policies will allow more social mobiltiy than liberal policies.  So, HIS perspective has nothing to do with maintaining aristocracy, or even supporting inequality of wealth.  His subjective experience of conservatism is different than Dick Cheney's subjective experience of conservativsm - so this reductionist formula doesn't have any concrete application.  Talking to that rank and file conservative as if he believed in an aristocracy, or even in increasing inequality of wealth, is fruitless, because those really aren't his values.  Explaining to him that conservative policies really do increase inequality of wealth is something that liberals already do, to the extent the conservative is in a position to listen, and could be done without this framework.  The framework would be actually counterproductive, in misidentifying the values of many conservatives. Am I missing something here?

I may be dense about, but I don't understand what the point of the exercise is. Conservative positions appear to be a haphazard jumble, as do the social positions of the Catholic Church.  Why not treat them as what the appear to be - a group of bad policies advanced by a complex and evolving set of stakeholders, and just pick them off one by one?


[ Parent ]
OK, that's perfectly clear. (0.00 / 0)
Thanks for answering my question.  

The way I see it, there are arguments and arguments.  There are arguments between a liberal or progressive and a conservative.  In those arguments, I agree that most of what you say is true.  Demolishing somebody's ideology doesn't necessarily lay a glove on their actual arguments.  And characterizing their ideology in a way they disagree with is almost certain to provoke accusations of bad faith, straw-man argument, and other dismissive reactions.

Then there are arguments not being conducted for the benefit of either the liberal or the conservative, but for the benefit of the auditors.  Each participant in the argument is trying to convince, not the other participant, but the audience that he is right and the other is wrong.  In those arguments, there's potentially a lot at stake.  Once somebody has adopted the conservative framework, it's usually almost impossible to make any headway against it.  But before that framework gets adopted, I think it's very possible to persuade the person that the framework is bogus and should be rejected. Especially if the argument not only addresses what is wrong with the adversary's argument, but also why the argument is wrong, and why the whole ideology which spawned the argument is wrong.

I hope you are still checking back on this thread, because I'd really like to hear what you have to say about that.


[ Parent ]
Who is the audience? (0.00 / 0)
It seems to me that most unaffliated voters are not particularly attentive, and so it doesn't matter whether the frame is true.  The Republicans can shout "tax and spend flip flopper" and the Democrats can shout "Chickenhawk corporate stooge" - either can be effective, and it doesn't particularly matter if the framing is true, only that it is repeated and superficially supported.

It also seems to me that unaffiliated voters are not the best candidates for ideological or systematic approaches, or they would be partisans already.

I'm trying to imagine an audience that would be more persuaded by "conservatives consistently value maintaining an aristocratic social hierarchy over justice" than "Sarah Palin is a moron."  

If the audience is receptive to the idea that policy really stems from systems of belief and can discern a false description from a true one in the heat of an exchange, then, I'd agree that accurately understanding the underpinnings (if they exist) would be important.  But I'm not sure that audience exists.


[ Parent ]
Probably, what you say is true. (4.00 / 1)
But what about young people who have not formed their political ideas very thoroughly?  Seems to me that is a very important "audience", one worth going to a good deal of trouble for.  Also, like all faith-based beliefs, I think conservatism sooner or later produces a crisis of faith in a lot of people, who then go looking for apologetics which can confirm or deny their ideology.  Seems to me it's a real good idea to have those apologetics in place when such things happen.

[ Parent ]
Maybe true (0.00 / 0)
I'm not sure what younger voters need to form their initial political opinions.  Maybe this sort of framework would be helpful to them.

As to deprograming former conservatives, I think the strong rejection of the foundation of their entire perspective might be too strong - but I've never observed anyone "convert."  Most of the time a "crisis of faith" in an adult true believer can be patched up with a pep talk, a few new rationalizations, and a reminder of how scary the alternative is.  


[ Parent ]
To me, conservatism is about artificially restricting (0.00 / 0)
the range of acceptable thoughts, feelings and actions to ones that are currently seen as, well, acceptable, by certain privileged elites, as opposed to liberalism, which is about lessening or removing such restrictions, and allowing things to develop more naturally, without articifial restraints.

Of course, it's all relative (a word that, of course, many conservatives dislike), as there aren't many people who believe in, let alone practice, absolute conservatism or liberalism in this respect. Even the most conservative people do allow some room for exploration, and even the most liberal people accept the need for some limits.

But relatively and generally speaking, conservatism is about more restraints, and liberalism about fewer. It's about how open-minded and adventurous one is willing to be, and willing to allow others to be, in various aspects of existance, and not just the political or ideological. Political conservatism is just a manifestation of general conservatism, that itself manifests itself in specific ideological and policy ways at any given time and place.

And today's American-style political conservatism is basically an especially constricted form of conservatism, especially with respect to the modern western world in which it finds itself. Which should come as no surprise, because we live in probably the most liberal times in western history, which would naturally prompt a particularly conservative reaction among some. The existance and virulence of the modern American conservative movement is totally unsurprising, even if its tremendous political success over the past 40 years might be.

Conservatism, like liberalism, is more a particular mode of thinking, feeling and behaving than any specific set of ideas, values and actions vis a vis this or that set of issues.

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton


You seem to be saying, (0.00 / 0)
as some others above have at times seemed to be saying, that conservatism is a psychological attitude more than a political construction.  I certainly think that the attitude you refer to is one of the meanings of the term "conservatism", and may have been the original one.  But psychological attitudes cannot be refuted. They can only be analysed, identified with, or repudiated.  Much of the content of political conservatism can be refuted. So clearly there are major elements of political conservatism which are not reducible only to a psychological attitude, and taking an opposing political stance entails dealing with those elements as well.

[ Parent ]
I only reduce it to a psychological attitude (4.00 / 1)
because to reduce it to a political and ideological one seems futile. Conservatives say and do things that are so contradictory that to come up with a coherent and genuine political ideology called conservatism seems silly. They're for small and unobtrusive government that leaves people alone, but also for a surveillance state that tells people whom they can have sex and be in relationships with and marry, and that forces religious values onto people who don't subscribe to them. They're for a modest foreign policy, but support massive wars of choice. They're for balanced budgets and fiscal responsibility, but invariably run up deficits with wasteful and unnecessary programs. They're for personal responsibility and patriotism, but absolute rife with people who can't keep their dicks in their pants who pulled strings to avoid military service. So how can one actually deduce a coherent ideology from that? Sure, there's a theoretical core conservative credo. But it's never even begun to be lived up to by most politically successful "conservatives". I suppose that Ron Paul is a conservative, as was Barry Goldwater. But neither of them ever had much power, and even they're full of contradictions (Paul is against abortion and gay rights, and Goldwater's family made their fortune from New Deal big government public works projects).

They are hypocrites without a credible ideology, who are about power and money. Getting it, restoring it, expanding it, keeping it. The ideology is just window dressing and bromide.

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton


[ Parent ]
Forgive me for being simplistic. (0.00 / 0)
"(and their take on the origins of conservatism is just wrong but too big a digression to address here)."

No it isn't. Conservatism is just another facet of Reaction which itself was a conscious 17th-19th century movement to combat the Enlightenment. Both the Enlightenment and Reaction spawned some horrible outcomes at the extremes, we can place Stalinism/Maoism as fatal failures of the former and Nazism as equal failures of the latter. Which is why adherents on one side or another of the Enlightenment/Reaction divide are so willing to demonize the other. But fundamentally the distinction is simple. If you believe in the Enlightenment you believe we are at the Dawn of History. Things might be kind of bleak and dark now but you can look at the horizon and see that brighter hours are coming. If you believe in Reaction you believe that we are at the Twilight of History. Sure the sky may be kind of gleaming in a flickering way but Noon/the Golden Age is always in the past.

You can express the dichotomy in all kinds of ways: future/past, reason/received wisdom, progress/'Golden Age'. To think of Conservatives as simply wanting to maintain the status quo is I think misleading. Instead they are just desperately clinging to anything that further removes themselves from the Golden Age.

Any student of Mythology probably understands this intuitively. Gods and Culture Heroes were always active and visible in the past. (As were of course the opponents, your odds of running across Loki or Crow today being kind of slim.)

Isaac Newton, by nature a fundamentally conservative/reactionary person tried to bridge the gap by claiming that Moderns were simply 'Dwarfs standing on the shoulders of Giants' (echoing Bernard of Chartres). But by and large his Enlightenment successors simply abandoned that metaphor.

Sometimes you can just make these things too deep. What separates a 'Progressive' from a 'Reactionary', a 'Liberal' from a 'Conservative'? Mostly it can reduce itself to which way they are looking: forward? or backwards?



It's Simple, Yet Complex (4.00 / 1)
I agree that the basics are simple. But how they play out can be quite complex, and how conservatives misunderstand and misrepresent how they play out takes us from complex to dazed and confused.  That's all I think Dan was trying to say.

The chief manifestation, I'd argue, is this: conservatives don't just look back, they look up--to those culture heroes you mentioned.  It's all with the Hesiod for them.  The Enlightenment (which previously occurred among the Greeks between Hesiod and Plato) is, by contrast, much more eqalitarian as well as forward-looking.   Then, as progress inevitably throws up new elites, some of those folks become conservatives as well, further complicating matters.

This is where the complexity comes from.  And the conservative way of dealing with the complexity--that's the dazed and confused part.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I over simplified the simplicism (4.00 / 1)
Paul I would certainly agree that you have to couple 'past/present' with a social 'up/down'. But in Western societies you mostly can't separate 'up/down' from 'lineage', temporality always enters the picture.

For example Conservatives almost always lionize 'Old Money' over 'Parvenus'. The fact that great-great-great-great granddad made his money running slaves to Jamaica and then rum past the customs guys to Boston Harbor in the 19th century makes him an 'ancestor'. Whereas J. Kennedy's activities during prohibition still make him 'colorful, ending up as Ambassador, and then father of a President'. While their modern day counterparts are likely to end up known as 'Convict 43598'. When it comes to money the sins of the fathers rarely bear on the sons and almost never on the grandsons.


[ Parent ]
My favorite definition of conservatism (0.00 / 0)
came from a conservative history professor of mine in college, who offered the literal definition, i.e. the belief that there is merit in "conserving" certain things that were a long time and much effort in developing, and that are of value. Of course, this is so broad that it could easily apply to liberals as well. But when it comes to definitions, I like literal ones. And, of course, there is contention as to what has value and is worth conserving, and what does and is not. I would argue that such contention to a large extent forms the basis for the difference between modern conservatism and liberalism. They want to conserve what they like and believe in (money, power, privilege, dominance), and we want to conserve what we like and believe in (genuine liberty, fairness, justice, opportunity, community, ourselves, our dignity, our health). And all that talk from them about freedom and virtue is just that--talk.

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton

[ Parent ]
Sorry, I may be missing your point, (0.00 / 0)
but I don't really see this kind of excursion into the remote past as being productive for the discussion of the nature and identity of conservatism. Trying to divvy up ancient Greek civilization between Enlightenment and Reaction seems extremely reductionist.  Furthermore, I'm not at all sure that classifying cultural productions as "forward looking" or "backward looking" has any actual use, other than to allow you to fit them into a possibly over-broad historical schema.

It seems to me that the point of Daniel's enterprise is to identify conservatism in such a way as to allow its essentials to be examined in a relatively objective way. He wants to know what it is, so that he can identify the dysfunction in it. A political philosophy as a whole can only be refuted if you can say what it is you are arguing against.  I understood kanzeon's point above to be that talking about conservatism as an ideology would not further the goal of refuting it.  I don't think I agree with that, although I do admit that the ideological arguments may not give one any traction in arguing a particular issue.  But I do think it is possible to range too far afield in discussing the cultural antecedents to modern conservatism, and for me, ancient Greek civilization is a bridge too far.


[ Parent ]
Reaction isn't Modern (0.00 / 0)
And yep that is a double entendre.

Reaction as a self-realized movement is in fact a Modern phenomenon. But it didn't start with the Modern Age (conventionally post 1492). We could equally fix it in terms of Plato v. Aristotle, Thucydides v. Herodotus, or Sparta v. Athens. Or you could probably pick your (western) culture. All I know that is in European/Western culture the distinction always boils down to past/future. We tend to believe in Time's Arrow. Eastern or Southern people who believe that the world is better understood as a Circle may be scratching their heads.


Plato And Aristotle Were BOTH Reactionaries (4.00 / 1)
Read The Liberal Temper In Greek Politics by Eric Alfred Havelock.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
I'll grant the point on Aristotle (0.00 / 0)
I guess. Because I couldn't come up with a recognizable counterpart to Plato otherwise.

But I would still think that Aristotle was open to futurity and the possibility of progress and new knowledge in a way that Plato was not. Chances are I won't get to the Havelock book. Mea culpa. But if you or any other Open Left readers have a chance you might be well served by reading Karl Popper's The Open Society and Its Enemies which helped me to understand that the struggle between Enlightenment and Reaction did not in fact start with the waning of the middle ages but instead had roots going back pretty much forever. That is Plato didn't invent Reaction, he just got it into enduring print.


[ Parent ]
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