Flamewars and Trolling: An Internet Discourse Primer

by: Josh Koenig

Wed Dec 03, 2008 at 21:14


(A well-written reminder for relative blog newbies and oldbies who forgot. - promoted by tremayne)

The recent frontpage flame-fest kicked up by David Sirota's "A Mass Psychological Change" post prompted me to make a few meta notes on flaming/trolling, and it occurred to me that folks might benefit from a little primer on how to have productive conversations online.

That's not meant to be condescending! Anyone who knows me knows I'm hardly Ms. Manners. ;)

However, it's well-established that the pseudonymous and highly mediated form that typifies most forums and email threads drives towards more aggressive and destructive behavior. That's just the nature of the game, and if we're not conscious of this, it's really easy to slip off the deep end.

Enclosed are some general tips (and fascinating links) to keep in mind if you want to avoid flaming/trolling.

Josh Koenig :: Flamewars and Trolling: An Internet Discourse Primer
All Of This Has Happened Before

One thing to take to heart is that even as the netroots continue to expand at a fantastic pace, spirited (indeed, rancorous) online debate has been around for decades, and the behavior patterns are fairly well-established. There's been quite a lot written on this topic, and a set of norms, values and nomenclature have developed within communities that value discourse. Silly as it may sound, there's a lot we can learn from people who spent years debating Macs vs. PCs in USENET forums, or Linux vs Windows in IRC:

Trolling vs Flamebait

The important thing here is to recognize our goals. In a community such as OpenLeft, participants are ostensibly somewhat like-minded and generally aligned towards promoting progressive change, left-wing values, etc. We don't want to slag eachother off and have a lot of stress and hard feelings, even though sometimes that's what happens.

Trolling is generally understood as malicious, intentional disruption. A low-caliber example would be a freeper posting Bill Ayers-related rants here. Easily delt with via the 0 rating.

Higher-caliber trolling is really quite sophisticated and manipulative. It's about creating the appearance of honest intentions, obscuring the true goal of seeding chaos. Hard to spot, very destructive to a community; this is the reason why "Troll" is a real insult.

I take it on faith that anyone bothering to read this is not really a troll.

Flame-bait on the other hand, is a statement from a community member which is, as the name suggests, incendiary. It may contain a number of valid points, and maybe only one simple phrase that will set other people off, but the presence of that one phrase is really all that matters.

You don't want to be flame-bait.

The means here are really pretty simple and obvious: think before you post. Give what you want to get back. Try not to use language you know will piss people off, because it will just piss people off, and then you'll be fighting about whatever that was rather than having a meaningful dialogue (which could still be full of deep disagreement!) on more substantive topics.

The Path To Victory Isn't A Shouting Match

I see this a lot, where someone makes a really great (or even just perfectly valid) point, but closes their comment with a statement like, "though it's unlikely anyone like you would ever understand this..."

Those kinds of comments are kind of tragic to me, because whatever real information was being conveyed will be lost in the inevitable battle of tit-for-tat one-upsmanship that will result.

The golden rule works really well here. You get what you give, in most cases. We can all make things better by trying to address the substance of what other users are saying, by being observing The Principle of Charity in our discussions:

In philosophy and rhetoric, the principle of charity is an approach to understanding a speaker's statements by interpreting the speaker's statements to be rational and, in the case of any argument, rendering the best, strongest possible interpretation of an argument. In its narrowest sense, the goal of this methodological principle is to avoid attributing irrationality, logical fallacies or falsehoods to the statements of others, when there is another coherent, rational interpretation of the statements.

This is how we make progress, because ultimately we all want a lot of the same things. Nobody's goal is to get over on some other poster, that's a distraction. The principle of charity is an excellent one to keep close as we navigate the unexplored territory to come.

I don't really expect this diary to have much of an impact on the tone of the debate. These things tend to move in waves. Primaries are dogfights. Issue and identity fault-lines produce big flare-ups. People get touchy around issues of power. These things happen. However, I do hope that by giving a few more users some understanding of the context of online debate, and the deep history here, we can salvage a few more worthwhile threads.

In conclusion, I don't ever mean to suggest anyone just STFU; I just mean to be cognizant of how choosing your words has an effect. Heck, sometimes it's fun to argue. If that's where your heart is, flame on!

Poll
Do You Feed The Trolls?
Never
Sometimes
Always, It's fun!
Huh?

Results


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this should be a bit more controversial and edgy, because as it is, (4.00 / 3)
i'm not sure whose actions you are trying to reform...

in other words, what were some of the flame-baiting comments from the past thread?  were there trolls in the thread?  was there TR abuse?  if you think so, it'd be nice if you would say so more directly, so we can all get a sense of what the expectations are around here.  

in general, i really think that the FPers need to think a bit about the discourse that has recently been taking place on the site, think about whether you want to regulate it a bit, about whether some FP posts could be changed to generate more productive conversations, etc.

in other words, what is the purpose of the comment threads?  is it, at this historical moment, to provide a forum in which folks think through how to organize in response to the actions of the obama admin-elect?  or is it something else.  because if it is the former, the meta posts about obamaphiles make sense.  if not, then maybe not so much.  

just some things to think about.  


Thx for bringing this up again as a reminder! (4.00 / 8)
Good points, even though I would like the article to put a higher focus on trollrating and TR abuse. And it should emphasize that the whole issue applies to frontpage bloggers, too.

And after scrolling throgh that thread again, I want to raise another issue that is lossely realted: It would be really nice if commenters who become banned here receive an email that informs them of this. Nothing fancy, just a standardized text that will spare them the effort of searching for problems in their browser and with their password. And I think Chris and Matt should consider introducing a temporary ban, one or two days, as an additional instrument. This would give users, who got carried away in a heated discussion like the example cited here, the chance to cool down without them being shut out because of a single day of bad temper. A total ban being the only option only assures that people will get even more enraged about this "unfair" treatment. We have seens some cases here where this happened to usually reasonable commenters, who then opened up a new account and filled whole threads with their complaints (uh, well, I know this from personal experience :-/). Temporary bans are used by many other blogs with good results, they help to dampen tensions, they result in a larger base of commenters,  and, all in all, they make the job of administrating the blog easier in the long run. Matt, Chris, pls give this a try!


Should the term "obamabot" be banned? (4.00 / 5)
I'm serious. Does it serve a useful purpose at Open Left?  I understand negative reactions to calling people "obamabots" proves something very profound to some here, but can they just consider the point made for all time?  

We've seen many posts here express the very important concerns about the upcoming administration without flame-baiting the users.  And I can't recall a comment with "obamabot" in it that led to a productive reply.



New Jersey politics at Blue Jersey.


I don't like banning the use of words at all, it's like burning books, but... (4.00 / 5)
you sure have a point in that comments that include that word are totally unlikely to advance the discussion here. But still, I think we shouldn't introduce such automatisms, but judge every posting on it's own merits. And as the example cited here shows, banning a word would be ineffectual since people could easily find and use alternatives, like "brownshirts".

[ Parent ]
Either Way ... (4.00 / 1)
... it's Not About Us. It's about the people in office, and those who we'd like to see in office.  Diaries focusing on the intentions and behavior of this site's users are a waste of time.

[ Parent ]
Well (4.00 / 5)
Diaries focusing on the intentions and behavior of this site's users are a waste of time.

To the extent that I believe that the intentions of the sites users are good, and I believe that our behavior is the only way in which we can influence the world, I think it can be quite a valuable use of time to talk about how we organize, interact and communicate.

To the extent that it becomes a never-ending meta thread, or a bunch of "rules" that stifle conversation, that's counter-productive, but I don't think it's prima face a waste of time to think about what we ourselves do.

Me | My Work | Future Majority


[ Parent ]
"High-Caliber trolling" (4.00 / 7)
Higher-caliber trolling is really quite sophisticated and manipulative. It's about creating the appearance of honest intentions, obscuring the true goal of seeding chaos. Hard to spot, very destructive to a community; this is the reason why "Troll" is a real insult.

What is the ratio of true high-caliber trolling to false positives, ie, comments that are taken by others to be high-caliber trolling, but which were not actually made with a "true goal of seeding chaos"?  

In my experience (long, on many blogs by now), the ratio is very very low: while low-caliber trolling might occasionally exist as freepers cross over (or vice versa), the discussions that ensue after accusations of "high-caliber trolling" (usually just called trolling) -- when people manage to keep their heads -- generally reveal that the original poster, the accused "troll," was by no means operating from some true, secret goal of "seeding chaos" -- or in fact doing anything intentional to disrupt the community, except insofar as he/she was disagreeing with many people there in making the original post.  

In fact, in most cases I've seen, the accused "troll" in these high-caliber situations is attacking either from the left, or from a position somewhat off the usual L-R continuum.  It's true that most such comments only become accused of trolling when they exhibit a certain level of vehemence, but such levels are generally commonplace among those supporting the positions of the majority.  Rather, it is the fact that the accused troll is attacking the majority, and often from the left, that gets the accusations flowing -- and these accusations, inasmuch as, as the word "troll" connotes, they imply that the author was working from a secret true goal of disrupting things, appear almost always to be false.  That's why I find the concept of "troll" to itself be somewhat destructive: in the clear cases of the low-caliber trolls, it's fine; but in the numerous cases of high-caliber trolls, it becomes a tool for the majority to make accusations (usually false) about the secret motives of the poster, rather than responding to (or ignoring) the expressed arguments.  I would think this might be a familiar position for people here to have found themselves in elsewhere, since it has happened to me most when I have made arguments elsewhere critiquing democrats from the left, but perhaps that is not the case.  In any case, take this as a mild plea to use "troll," when addressed to high-caliber trolling, as sparingly as possible: even if you think someone is being disruptive to the community (and is that always a bad thing?), their intentions are usually in earnest, and wrapped up in the content of what they are saying, not in some secret desire to sow chaos.


Almost none (4.00 / 1)
I agree. In my opinion, there's almost no true "high-caliber trolling" on OpenLeft, in the sense of people who have the necessary communication skills and sociopathic mindset to create Chaos for Chaos's sake.

99.9% of what I would consider counter-productive here is just standard flame-baiting.

I only included this distinction for context. In no way do I want to lend credence to the notion that people operate with hidden agendas. That's a really negative assumption that drives everyone down.


Me | My Work | Future Majority


[ Parent ]
In general (4.00 / 1)
I think there is very little "high-caliber" trolling.

In my experience, people who are labelled "trolls" are most often people who disagree with the person doing the labelling.  


[ Parent ]
yah (0.00 / 0)
If I had my druthers we'd rename that 0 rating, or have a 1-level that's "unproductive" or something. That way people could get dinged without being labeled as trolls.

Me | My Work | Future Majority

[ Parent ]
Thank You (4.00 / 1)
You get what you give, in most cases. We can all make things better by trying to address the substance of what other users are saying...

I'd like to expand on this, and recommend that you don't give what you get, if you don't like it.

Ignore the name-calling.

The same goes for other types of jibe.  Consciously refuse to grant them power over your emotions, and zero in on the heart of their argument instead.

At the same time, consider not embellishing your argument with jibes.  It's usually a tactical blunder, distracting people from your point and getting you and them caught up in a discussion about your manners.

Even if they do it first, don't do anything that you disapprove of.

Instead, do as Josh suggests, and focus on the substance of what the other is saying, and the substance of what you are saying.


Well, I don't think ignoring name calling will advance the discourse here. (4.00 / 4)
Maintaining some quality of discussion is necessary, and there have to be sanctions against people that engage in name calling. Why should the vast majority of reasonable cpommenters have to clench their teeth and act like insulting behaviour is ok? This will only lead to more of the same. Sry, but this stance makes no sense to me.

[ Parent ]
It's a practice (4.00 / 3)
I see what you mean.  I should have said, in your comment, ignore name-calling.

By all means, TR inappropriate behavior.

Meanwhile, when arguing, don't get sucked into a morass. Don't write the kind of comment you don't approve of, no matter how provoked you feel.


[ Parent ]
Not just ignoring (4.00 / 3)
It's a question of whether what's going on is only name-calling.

If someone's being a total jackass pure and simple, that's that the 0 rating is for IMHO. I'll also sometimes leave a simple reply w/no body and just a subject of "Thank you for trolling" or the like.

However, in the majority of cases, I see a mix of a real point with a rhetorical barb. In that case, responding to the point (and letting the barb pass by w/o comment) can raise the level of debate.

What's almost always counter-productive is returning a volley of name-calling back. And yes, calling someone a name-caller counts as that. ;)

Me | My Work | Future Majority


[ Parent ]
"Thank you for trolling" - yeah, I noticed that! (0.00 / 0)
Generally, a good idea, when applied to really trollish comments...
Otherwise, I can lead to a trollrating. Sorry.
:-/

[ Parent ]
Another suggestion (4.00 / 6)
Don't get obsessed with having the last word.

The person who has the last word doesn't necessarily have the best argument.  He might simply be the most stubborn.

If your argument has merit, smart people will get it.

If smart people don't seem to be getting it, repeating it with more and more anger probably won't help.  

Instead, think of an entirely different way to make your case. It may be that your point simply needs to be expressed in a way that makes more sense to them.


Guilty! :D (4.00 / 1)
Oops, once again having the last word. Damn, I have to work on this...

[ Parent ]
I worry when I get no response in a debate (0.00 / 0)
It suggests to me that my point is so weak that it did not merit a response.

So when I'm involved in a "back and forth" discussion, I hate to get the last word.


[ Parent ]
What about the person who posted the article? (4.00 / 8)
I think we're ignoring the fact that a lot of the flaming was kicked off by the terms like "Dear Leader" brownshirt etc. As I said in my comment to that post--David is smart and a critical voice to have--but is needlessly sensational in his rhetoric.

My point here is not to attack Sirota per se, but just remind the community that people who post articles and diaries have the same responsibilities that comments do. This is not to say they need to lame and bland. But there is a line between telling us we're being soft on Obama and we're brown shirt Dear Leader types.  

We won the Battle. Now the Real Fight for Change Begins. Join MoveOn.org and fight for progressive change.  


Quite true. (4.00 / 7)
It appears of late that Sirota's main intention is to shift this site toward a talk radio paradigm where you kick things off by being as inflammatory as possible to attract participants.  If he continues down that path, if you endorse that tactic, then eventually a certain part of the audience will stop coming here and those people who itching for a fight will take their place.  

[ Parent ]
We're supposed to be on the same side (4.00 / 2)
And I don't want to participate in that kind of Website.

OpenLeft is an excellent place, with several luminaries of the Left-wing Netroots. It's a small enough place where posters like myself are not made to feel overwhelmed.

Vigorous debate among us on the Left is important. But if we descend into pettiness, the only winners are wingnuts.


[ Parent ]
Indeed! Let's not become like the orange madness. (4.00 / 3)
A comment by Tom Wells made me check some DKos comment threads today. Sheer madness, all those accusations flying back and forth, constant namecalling, and regular ratings abuse. Makes me so happy that here at OpenLeft we still have a realtively civil discourse. Let's work at keeping it this way!

[ Parent ]
Agree (4.00 / 1)
Sirota and Limbaugh seem to share a style of being intentionally inflammatory. I know why Limbaugh does it; I can't figure out Sirota's motive (is he really doing it to attract participants? If so, what a juvenile approach. Your conclusion about the result is one I share). I'm more inclined to believe he does it because he thinks it is the best way to make his point. What a shame.


[ Parent ]
Difference between Sirota and Limbaugh (4.00 / 4)
is that Limbaugh uses inflammatory language only to keep his ratings up.  I don't think he actually believes most of what he says. Controversy is his bread and butter.

I give David (and many others that use similar rhetoric here) the benefit of the doubt because I think their tendency towards flaming is driven by their passion for the topics at hand. Their ideas are their bread and butter.

That's a world of difference.



"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
well, sorta (4.00 / 1)
I agree with your opinion about Limbaugh.

I don't agree that anyone's passion is an excuse for ongoing bad behavior. A one time comment...sure....maybe even more than that in one thread - but, when it is in virtually every diary and every post it goes beyond being caught up in passion...it becomes a choice. A very unbecoming choice.


[ Parent ]
You're not seriously comparing Sirota and Limbaugh, are you? (4.00 / 2)
I guess you are. Tell the truth: you know that David's motive is very clear. Obama has so far created a govt that could, as a McCain adviser said, have been created by McCain. Could this be David's motivation?

[ Parent ]
Yes, I am (0.00 / 0)
It's the style, not the content, that are comparable. Using inflammatory language (Dear Leader) and demeaning those who disagree with the speaker/writer are unbecoming traits they both share.

So it's okay if David uses language to inflame or demean because he is mad at Obama? He's not a competent enough writer to express his thoughts without stooping to Limbaugh's level? A bully, a child, an extremely arrogant person, or a limited writer/speaker inflames and demeans. Pick one.


[ Parent ]
many to one problem (0.00 / 0)
There is a dynamic here that is caused by the fact there is one David Sirota and many readers.

I believe that David makes the tactical error of, as I said above, "distracting people from your point and getting you and them caught up in a discussion about your manners."

(which apparently many people want to bring into this discussion of how best to participate in online debates. Clearly feelings are aroused)

That said, the effect of many negative comments must surely accumulate in the mind and heart of the one blogger.

In other words, maybe people just got under his skin, and he is reacting emotionally -- as so many clearly do when called names.

Or when they have their character assassinated, or their psychological state discussed in unflattering and inaccurate terms, or their motives impugned.

The many to one problem is that while maybe I could convince you to stop flaming (or flaming back, if you will), someone else probably will just step up and throw down.

I believe this is why, on more-stringently moderated sites, being rude to the hosts is usually suppressed -- to prevent a difficult feedback loop.

Finally, I'd argue (from my own beliefs about how to debate), that everyone has the power, with every post, to have an effect on the overall tone of the discussion. As Josh said, Be the Bigger Person.


[ Parent ]
The difference between OpenLeft and a site like Huffpo (4.00 / 2)
is that if you find David's posts inflammatory, you may post responses that are very critical in the comments. Try that at Huffpo. They delete comments that are too critical of the columnists, and they delete comments on sensitive topics such as the ME, even when the original article was on said topic! Yet they allow all kinds of snarky, racist invective. I refuse to go there any more. I know the two can't really be compared, as and the discourse on this site is of a consistently higher caliber. One more thing: David has a point. If you are offended by his terms here, go back to some of his earlier posts that were more restrained. The comments were just as aggressive, which tells me it is the message (with which I agree), and not the words that are eliciting the response.

[ Parent ]
the message has changed, (4.00 / 3)
not just the words used to express that message.  in yesterday's post, the actions of obamaphiles were interpreted as symptomatic of a "mass psychological transformation" in the US.  a few weeks ago, 'we' were just a bunch of whiny, left-betraying commenters, not a sign of creeping authoritarianism.

not that either of these arguments can't be defended. and i'm certainly not saying that people (i.e. david) should censor themselves when a matter of political significance is at stake.  

honestly, though, i think a whole lot of commenters here would change their tune radically if they saw david being somewhat self-reflexive and/or humble.  clearly, he sees himself as being on a mission to activate dissent, which is totally cool.  what is lacking, i think, is a sense of the difficulty of this mission, of the ways in which it is necessary to build a case over time, build trust with the people you are trying to mobilize, check yourself when you get significant pushback, etc.  i realize this may be more difficult for david insofar as, apparently, there are people at kos who are expressly interested in shouting him down.  that would take a psychological toll....

but we here are, almost without exception, not constitutionally inclined to disagree with david.  we like it when he engages in critical commentary, especially when it is backed up with evidence, and involves a discussion of how, concretely, progress on whatever issue is being discussed could be made.

there are going to be disagreements and friction when it comes to questions of how to respond to the incoming administration.  but these disagreements don't have to be acrimonious.  and, for those who are interested in moving readers 'to the left' on these questions, an ounce of humility and self-reflexivity will go a long way towards making your efforts successful.  

and as for the rest of us, we have work to do as well in reading charitably, and trying to push beyond insults to get to the substance of whatever post we are responding to.


[ Parent ]
You are probably right, but I see tons of insults in the comments, (0.00 / 0)
with many 4 ratings attached. In the Quick Hits, a talk by Chomsky was posted in which he was critical of Obama. In the comments, Chomsky was called, old, crazy, and senile. This from a site called "OpenLeft"! Trust me, Chomsky did not use any inflammatory language.  

[ Parent ]
No, but (0.00 / 0)
In fairness, I listened to the whole talk. It was seriously weaksauce. Chomsky is devolving into schtick IMHO, cherry-picking datapoints (esp. with regard to finance) that support his predefined/retreaded argument.


Me | My Work | Future Majority

[ Parent ]
Excuse me pls, but do you really want to teach anybody on ratings. (0.00 / 0)
Sholdn't you care more about the beam in your own eye first? After you totally arbitrarily trollrated me recently, apparently only because you didn't like my opinion, I looked into the other ratings you applied and found two very questionable incidents where your ratings seem to be based on your disagreement with a commenter. Since you haven't used that feature much, this puts about one quarter of your ratings in the "questionable"  category. So, pls try to lead by good example first, instead of preaching to the choir!

[ Parent ]
Your criticism is noted, and I went and undid many of the troll ratings I applied. (4.00 / 1)
I haven't posted here for very long, and I thought that comments would be tied to a kind of "average" based on the responses of readers. Please go back and look at the first such post directed to me. It seems that the only options given to us is either "troll" or praise. Still, I don't know how I am "preaching to the choir," when my comment above spoke about applying praise to insults. If I were to "lead by example," then that would mean that I wouldn't apply positive ratings to insults. I certainly haven't done that.

[ Parent ]
yes, we are all guilty. (4.00 / 2)
yesterday, i had a post that was pretty juvenile, and merely served to amplify a criticism of david's style.  

things have gotten rather polarized around here, and i think that my main point was simply that it is possible for progress to be made.  people who appear to have their heels dug in against david are, i submit, quite willing to change 'our' tune, are hoping for decent discourse, and would respond well to an offer for walk-back.  

what we have been seeing, however, is an escalation on his part.  of course, the flip side is probably true (we may be escalating in some ways, as well).  

about chomsky... i didn't see that exchange, and didn't listen to his remarks.  but i know a lot of people on the left (and i mean the lefty left, like marxists and anarchists), who have negative views of chomsky.... so, i don't know if you can chalk this up simply to obamaphiles having reflexive responses to any criticisms of obama.  


[ Parent ]
Applies to FPers too (4.00 / 3)
I think we're ignoring the fact that a lot of the flaming was kicked off by the terms like "Dear Leader" brownshirt etc. As I said in my comment to that post--David is smart and a critical voice to have--but is needlessly sensational in his rhetoric.

I'm inclined to agree. However, while I think the power of posting to the Front Page does imply a greater responsibility to have those statements drive towards productive outcomes -- David's last post was itself peppered w/flamebait -- the same basic rules apply.

To wit: I also agree that David's got good things to say, that we're on the same page, etc, so I just try and ignore the barbed rhetoric. Easy for me in this case since I'm not in the crosshairs, but given that the choices are:

A) Do nothing
B) Respond to substance (if any)
C) Flame on

A and B are the better choices overall. Basically it's up to every individual the Be The Bigger Person and raise the level of the debate. Not that anyone can do this all the time (hey, I've raged with the best), but it's helpful to keep in mind.

Me | My Work | Future Majority


[ Parent ]
In Ancient Days, Leftist Publications Had Letters Sections (4.00 / 3)
Although it went by much more slowly, leftie publications used to (and still) have acrimonious debates which took place in the weekly or monthly or quarterly letters' sections.

And they'd go on for years, and would often either represent or spark bitter rivalry among two or more different writers from the very same publication.

This is not new.


Not all flame wars are bad - (4.00 / 3)
As long as they focus on the subject at hand. Linux would not be the operating system that it is today without the flame wars between Andy Tannenbaum (now of electoral-vote.com) and (personal hero) Linus Torvalds.

Perhaps more importantly, Abraham Lincoln probably would never have become President without the old-style flame war known as the Lincoln-Douglas debates.

But participation in a flamewar requires a measure of discipline - most especially from a FP poster.

If a FP poster becomes petty, everyone on the site suffers.

It makes sense for a FP poster to clarify things - or elaborate in the comments.

However, IMO, some FP posters have not always followed the following rule from the OpenLeft User Manual

Be excellent to each other!

And while not all flame wars are bad - the flame wars seen recently are not productive.


Indeed (0.00 / 0)
As long as they focus on the subject at hand. Linux would not be the operating system that it is today without the flame wars between Andy Tannenbaum (now of electoral-vote.com) and (personal hero) Linus Torvalds.

Agreed, although I think there's a difference between a flame-war and a debate. It mostly comes back to following the thread, avoiding various incarnations of goodwin's law, and generally being charitable in terms of assuming the other person isn't a complete asshat.

Arguing is great, though. No argument here. ;)

Me | My Work | Future Majority


[ Parent ]
Intelligent debate (4.00 / 5)
I encourage people to document their arguments with links to authoritative sources (or at least some sort of source). The more reality-based the debate, the better. And if the debate is really all just opinion, then does it matter?

Also, I encourage you to be wary of any kind of "you" statements. Without intimately knowing other posters, we probably shouldn't infer anything about who they are or what they think. Instead of focusing on the person, focus on their argument and/or the language they use.



Many posters assume "everyone knows" X, Y, and Z (0.00 / 0)
without providing links.

And when this happens, I am unable to differentiate between such arguments and blowhards.


[ Parent ]
I get alot of my information from the radio (4.00 / 1)
and its very difficult to link to radio shows.

Even if I (and those like me) don't spend our time searching the web for links that support every statement, offering rational and thoughtful opinions on the information provided by others seems to be a useful role.

I don't think this blog is all about arguments and making cases, some of us are just trying to get a little clarity from those who do more on-line research.


"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
Civility begins from the top (4.00 / 1)
If you have front pagers who are not being civil, it will produce the results you are starting to see here. Thus my questioning how much more energy I am going to place into a site that i had come to like.

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