Justice We Can Believe In

by: David Sirota

Mon Dec 15, 2008 at 21:35


Wow - I'm probably behind on the news a bit, but I had no idea our incoming Attorney General Eric Holder led the defense of Chiquita. Yes, that Chiquita:

"As a partner at Covington & Burling, Holder represents Chiquita International Brands in lawsuits brought by relatives of people killed by Colombian terrorists. Last year, the company paid $25 million to settle claims that it paid Colombian paramilitary groups to protect employees at one of its banana-growing plants."

Many believe that phrase "protect employees" is, ahem, euphemistic, to say the least. Many, including those bringing civil suits against the company, allege that the company deliberately "hired [the] Colombian paramilitaries to kill or intimidate union members and officials," as Time magazine reports. Indeed, Portfolio notes that the paramilitaries whole goal was to "destroy unions."

In other words, there are some really truly awful companies to defend - and then there's Chiquita. And once you watch this 60 Minutes piece, I'm guessing you'll join me in saying "wow."  

David Sirota :: Justice We Can Believe In
I mean, I believe that for the most part, a lawyer can't be held responsible for the clients they defend, and everyone deserves a good defense. But that doesn't explain away an individual lawyer's personal choices. Sure, who a lawyer defends shouldn't disqualify them for almost anything...but perhaps one of the very few things it might affect is, ya know, whether they should head the entire U.S. government's legal apparatus.*

In my opinion, who a defense attorney DECIDES to defend (and it is their choice) should have an impact on almost nothing - except on whether that defense attorney should head the chief law enforcement agency of the United States government. I'm not saying it should be a fully disqualifying (or qualifying) factor, but it should be a consideration - and I'm guessing those who think it shouldn't are primarily lawyers who don't want to be judged on their decisions about who to defend. As a rule, lawyers - big shocker - want to be able to make money defending whoever they want, without being judged on who they CHOOSE to defend, and some of them attempt to justify their decisions to make millions defending awful corporations by sententiously claiming they were really motivated by the principle that everyone deserves a defense.

But that's the thing lawyers can't lawyer their way out of: While every defendant is entitled to a defense, an individual attorney makes a personal choice about whether to defend specific clients, and those choices most often (ie. when making millions on legal fees) involve values beyond the B.S. claim that they are doing it for the Sixth Amendment, whether the lawyer is big enough to admit that or not. Yes, Chiquita deserves a worthy defense. Yes, Eric Holder's corporate law firm has every right to defend that company and others. But do we want an Attorney General who made the personal choice - a choice involving values - to defend that company? That's the real question - and the idea that you can't even ask that question because of the Sixth Amendment is straight-up silly.

When applying for government service, everyone is judged on all the choices they make. Trying to exempt one profession from their individual choices about who to defend on the grounds that "everyone is entitled to a defense" is a pathetic attempt to use a constitutional principle to avoid any culpability in a personal decision. It's not like Eric Holder was a public defender forced to defend Chiquita. He made a personal decision to make lots of money defending one of the most brutal corporations in the world - a company that has long been one of the most brutal corporations in the world. That value judgment should be up for question not in evaluating whether Holder should be able to continue practicing law or continue making lots of money. That's his right. But being Attorney General isn't - it's a privilege.

Let's say it were journalism, and a reporter spent their time, say, only covering Paris Hilton or salacious scandals about Democrats and ignoring substantive issues, and then when criticized for it, that reporter said hey, it's the First Amendment! You'd laugh (or cry) because a constitutional principle doesn't explain away the immorality of personal decisions. The reporter - like the lawyer in chois making a choice, and we question that choice all the time, like we should be able to question lawyers' choices when they are up for top government positions (And I would also add that if Holder had been defending, say, a drug cartel from similar charges, there's no way he'd be allowed within 50 feet of a Justice Department building. But because he's defending corporate executives whose money helped kill workers (and - gasp! - union workers), almost nobody bats an eye.

As much as I know "the more things change the more they stay the same," in this case, I really can't believe it. A Justice Department headed by someone who defended Chiquita against the Justice Department.

Just...wow.

* In the comments section, please spare us the tired hackneyed crap claiming that this post (or anyone questioning Holder on these grounds) somehow opposes the right of defendants to legal counsel - everyone has the right to counsel, but that doesn't mean that who someone counsels shouldn't disqualify them from running the entire government's legal apparatus. If you are going to make the case for Holder, please make the case as to why we shouldn't consider who he defended when considering him for Attorney General. Should we, as a hypothetical, consider Osama bin Laden's defense lawyer for Attorney General? Would that be a disqualifying factor? I'm curious what you think. But do not make the case that all defendants are entitled to counsel. NO ONE IS DISPUTING THAT LATTER PRINCIPLE AT ALL.


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I know it has been mentioned elsewhere ... (4.00 / 2)
I know what Glennzilla says about representing clients(and even he has represented some unsavory characters) .. but the Chiquita thing gave me pause when I heard about it .. I wish there was someone else Obama could have nominated .. that said ... Leahy caving to the right-wing(even if it is just a week) is stupid ... Senate Democrats(except Feingold and Sanders) really are incompetent boobs

This Tells Us Nothing About Holder! (4.00 / 6)
It might be that he's a corporate stooge who turns a blind eye to gangland style killing by his corporate client.

It may be completely the opposite.

Personally, I wouldn't want to represent Chiquita.

But the best trial lawyer I ever knew defended (usually successfully) some of the worst criminals (murderers, high-level drug-dealers) I ever heard of.

His name was Irving Andrews and he was one of the finest human beings I ever knew. He got his start working as part of Thurgood Marshall's legal team on Brown v. Board of Education and he was one of the first black attorneys licensed in the state of Colorado.

And he used always to say in Court that the jurors had a sacred duty to the Constitution -- that was what was really at stake in these cases -- and he made them believe it too. They were upholding a system of law that was the true bedrock of liberty.

I used to go to court with him to try and figure out how he did what he did. And what I figured out, was that it was a total commitment of his life and passion to the concept of justice that shone through. Those jurors listened to him and believed what he said, not because of the words he used -- they would sound trite written down in cold black and white on a page. They followed him because of the absolute authenticity of who he was, that came from a lifetime of commitment that couldn't be faked or copied.

And when he died, the chapel was packed with hundreds of people, and every one of them claimed he was one of their best friends.


You cannot judge a man by who he represents in court. It says nothing whatever about his character or attainments in life.


[ Parent ]
And Sanders isn't a Democrat, (0.00 / 0)
although he caucuses with them. So we're down to Feingold. And Boxer, no? And don't forget Sherrod Brown, who really hasn't been there long enough to prove himself an incompetent boob. I think there's hope for him.

[ Parent ]
Really? (0.00 / 0)
Well, I didn't know Friedman was a billionaire so I guess we're even.

link (4.00 / 1)
Your quote above is not from any of the linked articles. I think it is from Politico.

http://dyn.politico.com/prints...

For what little it's worth, it's a pretty poorly written quote, since the lawsuit they settled was with the Justice Department, not the victims.

Not that that helps Holder here, but I do think it is worth getting the complaints straight.



New Jersey politics at Blue Jersey.


Lather, rinse, repeat (4.00 / 1)
Are we now becoming united against fruit?

Hell no...or, yes we CAN'T! (4.00 / 1)
Fruit is yummy, especially when it's picked by terrorized, non-union slaves who make $3 a day... or else! And smile when you (them, not you, of course) pick those naners, dammit! I like my naners totally free of human decency! Liberalism just makes them sickly sweet!

While I can't agree more that everyone, even terrorist... sorry, freedom-loving  corporations, have the right to a solid defense, I can't help but notice the symbolism of Holder's selection vis a vis our national decline into a Banana Republic.

Somehow it all fits so nicely! Did a professional fascist semiotician make the selection? Or is this just an unintentional gift to edgy satirists? (By satirists, I'm referring to talented writers possessing a rapier wit and a profound disrespect for power, totally unlike myself)

(end snark...and I'm not being bitter...although it sure seems like it, eh?)

When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it.

-- Frederic Bastiat, "The Law", 1850


[ Parent ]
diversionary tactic (0.00 / 0)
all of this is coming out because Holder will go after Rove and Rove is attempting to stop that.

Holder will go after Rove? ... (4.00 / 3)
How so?  When did Obama say he'd put BushCo in jail?

[ Parent ]
A few months ago.. (0.00 / 0)
...part of a campaign promise...

REID: Voting against us was never part of our arrangement!
SPECTER: I am altering the deal! Pray I don't alter it any further!
REID: This deal keeps getting worse all the time!


[ Parent ]
Made Up (4.00 / 1)
You just made that up. Seriously. Just now. You just invented that in your head. Obama never said any such thing. I know because I've been paying close attention and if he had said that he was going to throw George W. Bush in jail, I would have peed my pants with delight.

Please don't make stuff up.


[ Parent ]
Ahem (0.00 / 0)
Google is your friend:

Obama would ask his AG to "immediately review" potential of crimes in Bush White House

http://www.philly.com/philly/b...

Obama's plans for probing Bush torture

President Bush could pardon officials involved in brutal interrogations -- but he may also face a sweeping investigation under the new president.

http://www.salon.com/news/feat...

REID: Voting against us was never part of our arrangement!
SPECTER: I am altering the deal! Pray I don't alter it any further!
REID: This deal keeps getting worse all the time!


[ Parent ]
I Remember That (4.00 / 2)
An immediate review is not the same thing as a vigorous investigation, or a prosecution, and it certainly isn't a promise to throw Bush in jail.

[ Parent ]
Either you have a right to counsel, or you don't (4.00 / 11)
Either you believe that every defendant is entitled to a vigorous defense, or you don't. Once you get into "this defendant is, but what that defendant is accused of is so heinous that they do not" then you have abandoned the Sixth Amendment. If you judge lawyers on the crimes of their clients, rather than on the quality of their representation, then you do not believe in a right to counsel.

but who is the defendant? (0.00 / 0)
This is outside my area of knowledge, but here is another perspective on this issue:

http://firedoglake.com/2008/11...

and here:

http://emptywheel.firedoglake....



[ Parent ]
not working for me (4.00 / 2)
I read both posts, neither strikes me as persuasive. The second poster, who argues that Chiquita was dirty and didn't deserve Holder's ability to negotiate a plea, apparently does not agree that every defendant is entitled to a vigorous defense. That position is untenable to any person who believes in civil rights.

The first post proposes a complicated theory where the executives of the corporation should have been prosecuted separately from the corporation. I have no idea how the legal issues work out, but if the argument is correct it seems to me that looseheadprop's issue is with the Justice department's strategy, not Eric Holder.

There may be legitimate reasons to oppose Holder's nomination, but objecting to his nomination on the basis of who he defended is not compatible with a belief in civil rights.


[ Parent ]
Question (0.00 / 0)
Are a commitment to the Sixth Amendment and personal standards as to what clients you, particularly, will defend mutually exclusive?

[ Parent ]
Modern Justice (4.00 / 4)
If you believe in the justice system, and you're a defense attorney, there is no such thing as a client too evil to defend. If the most evil defendant does not get competent defense, a mistrial is a possibility and then the evil guy gets off. We need good defense lawyers or else the system doesn't work. The defense lawyer who defends the most evil clients is the defense lawyer who has the most faith in a modern justice system. That's exactly the kind of a person I'd want as Attorney General.

There are no exceptions for who deserves a fair trial. Trials aren't only for the defendants, they're for everyone, so that we can feel sure that we convict the right people and let the right people free. David Sirota thinks there should be some exceptions. That means that David Sirota doesn't believe in a modern justice system. Progressive hero indeed.

I believe in being civil and respectful to everyone... "for the most part." David Sirota is a doo doo head.


[ Parent ]
Post Modern Justice (0.00 / 0)
You make a fair and reasoned point. But would you want as AG the fine folks that defended Dow Chemical in the Bhopal atrocity? It's a hypothetical, of course, but it's not far off. Chiquita paid paramilitaries to kill off people (and their families) who threatened to reduce Chiquitas profits even marginally. Somehow this is viewed positively in some circles.

Whose side do you want your Attorney General to be on?

It's a fair question, isn't it? Would an actual progressive defend Chiquita, or would he/she be filing lawsuits on behalf of the murdered workers families?

I can't honestly tell you that Holder is a really bad choice. But seriously, whose side one serves matters in my book. He serves (or has at least made millions serving) the side that most resembles the Blackwater ilk and least resembles basic human decency. He has made a lot of money representing the bloody leading edge of corporate violence. For profit.

How does that pass muster?

When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it.

-- Frederic Bastiat, "The Law", 1850


[ Parent ]
Yes, Yes I Would (4.00 / 1)
Yes, if those people had a long track record of progressive politics, and were a board member of the American Constitution Society, and had nothing but the highest standards of professionalism, then yes, I would want those lawyers to be promoted.

Let's stop beating around the bush here. We keep dancing around Godwin's Law, so let's just bite the bullet. Would I want Hitler's defense attorney to be promoted if he were a good attorney? Yes, yes I would.

Would an actual progressive defend Chiquita, or Dow, or Hitler? Yes, an actual progressive would do exactly that.


[ Parent ]
Point taken, up to a point... (0.00 / 0)
Defending Hitler or any of his lieutenants at Nuremburg, yes I can see that. Those who defended the Nazis at Nuremburg were demonstrating to the world what the rule of law means in real terms.

Much of what we used to refer to as the system of international law, including the principle that Wars of Aggression are morally and legally wrong and prosecutable, were established there. Not any more, of course, as our own government, defended presumably by fine, upstanding people who teach at our finest law schools, argue all that Nuremburg stuff is just crap. Oh, and Geneva Conventions too. All in a days work, eh?

Defending Dow or Chiquita as a matter of progressive lawyering? Hardly. That's about money. There's no great principle in either of those two cases beyond doing a highly paid job. There's only the profit motive and Holder was, as a man of his position and experience, paid handsomely for it, as was his due.

I'm a little taken aback at this notion that Holder is some kind of progressive wet dream.

He was at DOJ, prosecuting Democrats (rightly so, but dig the partisan bias) in the public integrity section. Maybe he prosecuted Republicans as well, but it's not in his wiki page (and no, I'm not saying that is somehow exhaustive or definitive). But I figure that's why Ronald Reagan liked him enough to put him on the DC bench. If he went around jailing Republicans, somehow I doubt he would have been offered that job.

If I recall correctly, he was also an ardent supporter of the War on Poor People Who Do Drugs, mandatory minimum sentences for pot users, the systematic confiscation of property (asset forfeiture, based on the presumption of guilt, not the presumption of innocence!). Yes, this is definitely evidence of progressive views. Only a progressive would favor corrupt practices that allow law enforcement to seize property without any evidence of actual guilt, for their own use, enjoyment and profit. Nothing odd about that!

After government service, he went into private practice, where he made a lot of money (this being America, there's nothing wrong with that!). As in millions, especially on one case which has major ethical and moral issues that were simply not dealt with (so no, please don't draw any Nuremburg parallels). Does no one else think that the source of all those millions might mean something down the road? It does for most people, no? I mean, it's not nice to bite the hand that feeds, is it? Will he take calls from them once he's in office? Hell yes he will! Will he do them favors? Um, most likely yeah, if he knows what's good for him.

So my question (and it's an honest question) is this: At what point can we treat lawyers like other careerists who seek profits and power, often at the expense of all that nicey liberal stuff we liked when we were young and idealistic?

Methinks the progressive bar is set really, really, really low here. But that's just my take.  

When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it.

-- Frederic Bastiat, "The Law", 1850


[ Parent ]
wait (0.00 / 0)
so because i believe that every person has the right to free speech, i'm no longer allowed to judge the content of their speech?

because I believe that every person has the freedom of association, I should make no distinction between people who join the klan and people who join Emma Goldman?

The standard you're pointing towards is ridiculous.  The right to counsel, like the freedom of association and the right to free speech exist to protect people from the state.  They are rights guaranteed by the public - not rights that have to be practiced by any individual person.

Moreover, that these rights exist says nothing about the social or economic or political context of the choices that people make within that framework.  No one is saying that what Holder did was anti-systemic - just that the choice of client is absolutely a human and political and economic choice that lawyers (like any other service provider) makes.


[ Parent ]
What A Shocker (4.00 / 4)
A defense attorney has connections with criminals. I'm appalled! Appalled!

You do understand that without defense attorneys there is no such thing as a justice system, right? And you understand that it's a crucial element of the justice system that even the most vile criminals receive a vigorous defense, right? Wait, not even the most vile criminals, but especially the most vile criminals deserve a vigorous defense. Without it all we're left with are show trials and arbitrary incarceration.

David, every time you touch a keyboard you embarrass yourself more. Please stop. Consider a new vocation. I hear there are openings in fields such as debt collections and repossession. Maybe look there.


Of course (4.00 / 1)
Don't change the subject. No one is saying people don't have a right to counsel. What I'm saying is that someone defending Chiquita in a terrorism case brought by the Justice Department is a disturbing pick to HEAD the Justice Department.

As I always say - please read the post before commenting. I addressed this.


[ Parent ]
This Is How Justice Works (4.00 / 4)
I did read the entire post. I'm good at reading comprehension. Thanks for insinuating that I'm not. You miss the point entirely.

If the most evil criminals don't get the best defense, there is no justice. We in the modern world believe that you have to prove that someone is guilty, and this process requires an antagonistic force. A defense attorney who chooses to defend the most vile criminals is doing us all a favor by making sure that justice is done.

This concept of modern justice seems lost on you. Instead you choose to drag a defense attorney through the mud because he had the gall to do his job, a job which benefits us all.

Shame on you, David.


[ Parent ]
Again (0.00 / 0)
Again, no one - not a single person except the voices in your own head - is disputing the right to defense counsel. I am simply saying that who someone defends against the government's chief legal agency has an impact on whether they should be allowed to head the government's chief legal agency. Nothing more, nothing less.

Again, don't change the subject and moralize for the high principles of the law. It's pathetic - because it's a nonsequitur. Nobody is challenging that.


[ Parent ]
That Makes No Sense (4.00 / 1)
Someone who defends against the government's chief legal agency is uniquely positioned and experienced to head the government's chief legal agency. He has played on their level, and he knows how to see it from both sides. That gives him a superb perspective on how the justice system works.

At any rate, please defend what you say your idea is now. Go into detail. Why exactly should someone who defended against the DOJ not be allowed to head it? I want to hear your answer. This is going to be good.


[ Parent ]
No, you are, David. (4.00 / 9)
And there's a big difference between counseling a client in how to avoid legal responsibility before they commit various acts and counseling them after the acts have occurred on how to accept legal responsibility.  Forgive me if I'm missing something, but he never claimed that Chiquita behaved properly, did he?

I've represented a killer -- John du Pont, on the wrongful death suit.  I've represented and continue to represent insurance companies, on claims that I believe are the height of the public interest.  And I've got a lawsuit right now on which the DOJ is representing the Treasury Department.  Also, I've represented Matt Stoller and Chris Bowers.  Please tell me what this makes me unfit to do.


[ Parent ]
Tick Tick Tick (0.00 / 0)
David's responses were coming fast and furious there for a while. But now it he seems that he's a little tied up. Do you think it's possible that he's realized what an ass he is? And is hoping that the Internet will fade away for a little while?

[ Parent ]
not fair (0.00 / 0)
Just because someone's not sitting there hitting refresh every second, you shouldn't conclude that they are being cowardly. Maybe he has something else to do for a while. It does happen. Maybe he's eating dinner.

[ Parent ]
Boo Hoo (4.00 / 1)
Yes, after David Sirota took time out of his busy schedule to do some mudslinging against one of the finest and most respected progressive attorneys in the country, I'm not being fair.

Please allow me to be unfair a little more. David Sirota should never, ever post any of his half-cocked ideas to the Internet again. He's a bad writer, a bad thinker, and a bad citizen. He should feel some shame and apologize for what he's done, but he's not man enough.


[ Parent ]
Totally agree (4.00 / 4)
And this anti-Holder stuff on Openleft just annoys the crap out of me.  

Because someone was on the other side of something from the DOJ in some corporate dispute, they aren't fit to head it?  Most lawyers, even most lawyers who WORK AT THE DOJ, would be laughing Sirota out of the room at the thought.

The DOJ hires defense attorneys to help them all the time.  Had I not a tax law final to study for, I'd look some examples up but one that comes to mind is them recently shopping out some Antitrust work to a prominent antitrust defense attorney (as the Bush admin has finally woken up at the 11th hour and realized the Sherman and Clayton acts apparently still exist).

This guy is a progressive wet dream for Attorney General.  


[ Parent ]
Agreed (4.00 / 1)
This guy is a progressive wet dream for Attorney General.

Agreed. And anyone with the gall to drag him through the mud deserves to be spanked with a few well-thought-out insults.

David, you have a not inconsiderable readership, and you've just used it to impugn the character and professional skill of an upstanding citizen based on nothing but innuendo. Are you ashamed at all? Even a little?

Say you're sorry, David.


[ Parent ]
Seriously (4.00 / 4)
We're talking about a board member of the progressive American Constitution Society (full disclosure: I chair the Phila Lawyers Chapter).  Sirota's guilt-by-representation is just so wrong.

[ Parent ]
P.S. (0.00 / 0)
Please go into detail on whether or not your logic applies to Abraham Lincoln, former defense attorney, becoming President.

[ Parent ]
So your argument is... (4.00 / 2)
... that the accused are entitled to a strong defense, but the officer of the court who makes that defense possible must pay a professional price in doing so?  Or is it that only career prosecutors are fit to serve as the head of DOJ?

I agree with you much of the time, David -- and on a personal note, I tend to be the one bringing claims in my work as an attorney -- but I believe you should rethink your position in this case.  We have an adversarial judicial system that is dependent upon attorneys who are tasked with mounting the strongest case possible on behalf of their clients (within the limits of our rules of evidence, procedure, and professional conduct).  When those lawyers are made to think twice about mounting such a case, our judicial system is harmed.


[ Parent ]
But don't lawyers pick firms to work at all the time (4.00 / 1)
I know lots of men and women who have graduated law school recently, and choose what firm to work at based on the sorts of cases and clients those firms specialize in, and those choices include ethical considerations.  I know lawyers at some firms who are at times disturbed by who they represent, and consider taking jobs elsewhere where they will engage in more ethically palatable work.  Choosing how to spend your own finite time is not a violation of the right to defense, and judging individuals based on how they chose to spend their time is similarly not a violation of that right.  If we were advocating that Chiquita deserves no representation, that would be wrong; but we aren't.  We're saying that, of the few properly qualified lawyers for AG, lets look at the specific choices they made at every step of the way and compare them.  

And I can guarantee you that, for lawyers who are considering a political career at some later point, they already "think twice" about what cases to take at every step of the way.  Perhaps you believe that's for the worse -- but it's certainly not a new repercussion of what we're advocating.


[ Parent ]
Your analysis is incomplete (0.00 / 0)
It fails to take into consideration the actual merits of Holder's work.  A lot of the posts here seem to assume implicitly that Holder believes people affiliated with Chiquita are innocent of wrongdoing, but to my knowledge there is no indication that that is the case.  Unless you engage in the actual merits of his representation, I can't see how you would be in a position to actually judge his work.  He settled with the government - what exactly is the moral crime he is alleged to have committed?

Without delving too much into my own background, I have been involved in government investigations.  Sometimes it is the case that the government doesn't have all the facts and they target the wrong individuals.  Sometimes the government is mistaken because it has received bad information from people it has interviewed.  Sometimes government attorneys have their own career ambitions and they engage in fishing expeditions against their targets.  The same issues also arise in civil litigation.  Investigating charges of wrongdoing and setting the record straight are not blameworthy pursuits, particularly where the issue is not whether a party is guilty or innocent, but how much that party will be punished.  


[ Parent ]
I guess I thought the opposite (4.00 / 1)
That is, rather than "assume implicitly that Holder believes people affiliated with Chiquita are innocent of wrongdoing," I think most of his detractors (on the left!) assume that Holder well knew that Chiquita had engaged in pretty heinous practices.  Furthermore, I think many who had been paying attention to the Chiquita stuff before Holder entered the spotlight believed that the US government should not have decided not to prosecute, and that its ongoing refusal to investigate credible reports that Dole and Del Monte engaged in similar practices shows that the US govt was happy to have this whole thing go away.  So both sides are complicit in this, and both knowing full well the facts of the matter.  To quote from the 60 Minutes text Sirota cites above:

Are you saying that Chiquita was complicit in these massacres that took place down there?" Kroft asks.

"Absolutely. If you provide knowing substantial assistance to someone who then goes out and kills someone, or terrorizes, or tortures someone, you're also guilty," Collingsworth says.

Asked if he believes that Chiquita knew this money was being used to go into the villages and massacre people, Collingsworth says, "If they didn't, they would be the only ones in the whole country of Colombia who didn't think that."

"You're not saying that Chiquita wanted these people to be killed?" Kroft asks.

"No, they were indifferent to it," Collingsworth says.

"

[ Parent ]
except ... (4.00 / 1)
... Holder wasn't representing them when the payments were made (1989-97, IIRC).  He was in government at the time.

[ Parent ]
Good point (0.00 / 0)
Ware Wendell writes:

When those lawyers are made to think twice about mounting such a case, our judicial system is harmed.

This sentence captures perfectly the essence of the dispute with David.  Many of us recognize the importance of the rule of law, and a cornerstone of our system of justice is the right to a vigorous defense.

Last night I was watching the excellent John Adams miniseries.  Interestingly enough, the first episode dealt with the events of the Boston Massacre, in which Adams defended the British soldiers who shot and killed five Boston civilians.  Adams's defense of British troops didn't disqualify him from the Presidency.  On the contrary, it validated his status as a patriot of the highest order.


[ Parent ]
Um, ok. (4.00 / 4)
This says very little about the actual work he's done on Chiquita's behalf.  He negotiated a settlement with the federal government, but there is no analysis of that settlement or whether or not it was just.  It says nothing about the status of the civil suits, whether the claims are legitimate, or the extent to which Chiquita is contesting those claims.  In short, it does little more than assert that Chiquita is a bad company and that anyone associated with that company is likewise bad.  That's a pretty thin reed on which to hang someone.  

yep (4.00 / 1)
Sirota doesn't seem to be a fan of research. Glenn Greenwald also evaluated Holder and had criticism that was based on actual statements that he has made, you know, facts.

[ Parent ]
cmon guys (4.00 / 3)
am I the only person that shuddered when I saw Chiquita on there?  You can hurl insults all you want at David, but their record speaks for itself, and it says a lot of ugly stuff.

Colombia is a notorious place for making union organizers and workers who stand up for themselves disappear.  Maybe this doesn't give you pause but I won't sleep better tonight.


Chiquita Is Bad (4.00 / 1)
Chiquita is bad. Everyone agrees on that one. But if we start deciding that there are professional penalties for defending bad criminals, then who would ever want to defend bad criminals? And if no one wants to defend bad criminals, how can we possibly have a fair trial for anybody?

David pulled this standard out of his ass that someone who defended a high profile case against the DOJ shouldn't be allowed to run it. I've never heard this idea before in my life, and it makes no sense whatsoever. It's not a standard ever applied before. David just made it up.


[ Parent ]
well i'm not talking about a standard... (4.00 / 2)
i mean, i'm a union activist and i'm thinking, do i want someone who defended chiquita running the justice department. I think that's really the only point David is making.  It's kinda like do we want Elaine Chao running the Labor Department, or do I want voter caging people in the Justice Department's Civil Rights division.  I'm not saying Holder is like our buddies Bradley or Hans, but it gives me pause.  I now have to ask questions like: was he just taking Chiquita b/c he's a lawyer, or was there more to it?  Are there additional ties there?  Will he be a foe of labor if a union issue comes across the Justice Department?  And i didn't have to think about those questions before. Forgive me, but with a lot of free traders running around and the Senate taking shots at the UAW, union folks are a little nervous these days.

[ Parent ]
Perhaps you're unaware of what a lawyer's job is... (4.00 / 2)
their job is to represent their clients and provide them the best defense possible. Holder was doing his job.

Good to see you're doing yours! I'm sure Rove appreciates the help. You should ask him for a paycheck...why do for free what he'll gladly pay you for?!


I suppose you didn't see .. (0.00 / 0)
Leahy help Rove and the Rethuglicans out a lot today .. or are you conveniently forgetting that?

[ Parent ]
So David should join him? (0.00 / 0)
We have zero time for circular firing squads - and yet every day David wastes his time and the time of others on this bull. It's like he has nothing better to do - no progressive causes to fight for, etc.


[ Parent ]
To answer your question (4.00 / 9)
Yes, I would support Osama Bin Laden's hypothetical defense attorney to head the DOJ. Have you noticed it is the ACLU fighting to represent Gitmo detainees? These are the attorneys that are fighting the fight to represent the values of America by practicing real justice.

Glenn Greenwald already discussed how he would never judge an attorney by their clients. Hillary Clinton got a child rapist off but nobody ever suggested she couldn't be an advocate for children as a First Lady or in the Senate.

I think this is one of the few issues that is fairly black and white. I don't think your bolded update helps your case any.


Firms and defense attorneys decide not to council all the time. (4.00 / 2)
From what I've heard from lawyers I know, firms and individual defense attorneys decide that they don't want to take certain clients all the time.  For instance, many of the big firms refused to take various tobacco companies as clients.  Similarly, defense attorneys often decline to take on child molesters.  It's not that either the firm or the attorney thinks that these entities don't deserve representation, it's just that they themselves don't want to do it.  Similarly, firms and attorneys are frequently presented with an excess of possible cases, more than they could possibly handle, and have to decide which ones to take on.  Often, those decision are based in part on the merits of the defendants.  Likewise, firms privilege pro-bono work, which implicitly assumes that some cases are worth the work even if they can't pay; no one takes on pro-bono work for a huge company, even though I'm sure the companies would just as much appreciate not having to pay.  Finally, graduates from high-powered law schools have a great array of possible legal careers they can choose among, and many choose not to go into corporate law in part because there are other people out there more deserving of their efforts than these rich, powerful, and ethically-deficient entities.  These decisions not to represent a client or class of clients in no way mean that these lawyers are violating their belief that everyone deserves good representation; instead, they are just about how a given individual or firm prioritizes its values and energies.

So Holder made a series of these prioritizing decisions, about where to dedicate his finite energies.  If he didn't represent Chiquita, and decided to represent the indigent and abused instead, Chiquita could have found quite good representation elsewhere; such a decision in no way would have been a violation of his ethical duties as a lawyer.  But Holder didn't make that decision.  I don't know how much of his time was spent on Chiquita:  If it was a little, then none of this matters very much.  But if he spent a significant chunk of his career on that, then that matters, and tells us a lot about his priorities as a lawyer who had many choices available about where and in what ways he wanted to change the world as best he could.  It seems to me that he made a poor decision according to my own values, and I certainly could have found dozens of other applicants for the job who had priorities more in line with my own political values -- and I think Obama should have done the same.  And again: none of this violates any legal ethics or rights to representation.


Um, okay ... (4.00 / 2)
I just hope you'll consider the first quarter-century of Holder's career as well -- straight from Columbia Law School to DOJ's new Public Integrity Section for twelve years, then  as a Judge of the Superior Court of the District of Columbia for five, then U.S. Attorney for the District of Columbia for four years, then four years as Deputy Attorney General.

That's what he's spent most of his career doing.


[ Parent ]
I guess what I'd want to know then... (4.00 / 1)
Is what he spent his time doing while holding those jobs.  "What he's spent most of his career doing" is not those positions per se; he held those positions, but what he spent his career doing was the specific cases he took on and chose to pursue while holding those positions.  They all present a certain scope for choosing what to focus on while doing the job, so the question is, what did he choose to do, and to not do.  That list of jobs certainly proves that he is qualified for AG, but I think the idea here is that there are other people who also cross the threshold, so the question in making the decision about who to appoint is, given that they have all held impressive positions, what did they choose to prioritize while holding these positions?  Defending Chiquita is merely a single instance of a poor choice (again, relative to what he might have otherwise done with that time), but if it wasn't much of his resources, and his other choices were good, then I don't hold it too heavily against him.  But it does matter what the other candidates for the job did within their own high-powered careers -- and returning to the original point, it does matter what specific cases and clients he chose to dedicate himself to while working those positions or at his firm.

[ Parent ]
Yes, everyone deserves counsel (0.00 / 0)
BUT there is no doubt that who you decide to go to work for says something about your values and your priorities.

It's not like he just signed on with his friendly neighborhood law firm, and then Chiquita came a-knocking one day. Firms like this specialize in helping corporate clients in their union-busting efforts. When Holder graduated from law school, he had a choice: work on the side of the powerful, or work to help the little guy. He made his choice; others make a different choice every day. (Barack Obama was one of them.)

The analogy to representing murderers and rapists is off. There's a world of difference between a public defender and a corporate criminal defense attorney.

I'm not saying this should disqualify Holder for the position. If he will do the best job (out of all the other potential candidates), then I support the nomination. But it's not irrelevant.  


Now You Too (4.00 / 1)
If you had bothered to do any research before saying that Holder made slimy decisions just out of college, you'd know that what he actually did just out of college was work for the Public Integrity Section of the DOJ for twelve years.

You think you can just slime someone's reputation for kicks? Screw you.


[ Parent ]
not seeing how that makes it any better (0.00 / 0)
OK, fine, it wasn't just out of law school. What's the difference?

[ Parent ]
Some People Just Don't Get It (0.00 / 0)
Defending a criminal does not make you a criminal. It's just that simple.

[ Parent ]
Strawman (4.00 / 1)
Who said Holder was a criminal?

[ Parent ]
And (4.00 / 1)
I'm not saying it makes the guy evil. I'm just saying, it's a relevant data point on what his values and priorities are.  

[ Parent ]
Yes, It Does (0.00 / 0)
And his values are that the justice system works and it deserves vigorous effort. Those sound like good values to me.

[ Parent ]
But many people share those values (4.00 / 1)
The question Obama confronts in choosing an AG is, out of the millions who support those values, and the dozens who are qualified to be AG, which one to pick?  It seems like anyone who argues that the Public Integrity work should particularly recommend him for the job, should also grant that his Chiquita work should recommend against him.  How that all balances out is a hard question, and properly also depends on the balance for all the other plausible candidates.  But the original point is, his specific choices of cases and positions -- Chiquita and Public Integrity alike -- should count in the evaluation of him relative to the other candidates.

[ Parent ]
Let's Try It Your Way (0.00 / 0)
If all the good lawyers decide they won't defend bad guys anymore, then what happens? Well, first of all, you get a bunch of mistrials and then criminals get off easy. Secondly, people start to notice that criminals aren't really being defended anymore, and they start to ask, "What's the point of these trials anyway? It's all predetermined." Do you want to live in Judge Dread world? I don't think you do.

[ Parent ]
Slippery slope (4.00 / 2)
The way things actually stand, big corporations have their pick of the most talented lawyers, because they can offer the biggest salaries. Those on the other side of the equation are the ones in need of good lawyers.

In the world you describe, maybe we would be encouraging talented lawyers to go defend the unfortunate corporations. In this one, we encourage talented lawyers to go help the less fortunate, and when, like Barack Obama, they do so, we praise them for it.  


[ Parent ]
Bullshit. (0.00 / 0)
See above.  Want to try again on the "When Holder graduated from law school" answer?

And then tell me if you have any evidence of Holder being involved in union-busting efforts -- don't give us this "firms like this" crap.  


[ Parent ]
Minor correction noted (0.00 / 0)
now tell me what difference it makes

[ Parent ]
Man, I'm defending Sirota here.... (4.00 / 2)
Chiquita is a vile company.

This is big money work, and there are hundreds if not thousands of qualified attorneys to do it.  

Depending on the nature of these charges (it isn't entirely clear), his working for Chiquita is defintely a reflection of who the man is.  This isn't defending the poor or the outcast vigorously against the force of the state.  It is (again, depending on the details, but they don't sound good) potentially aiding corporate murder and terrorism.

I kept hearing from all the Obama lovers back during the primary how wonderful it was that he chose to serve the community, and not become a corporate whore.  Holder made a different choice.  It is entirely legitimate to question whether someone who was both a corporate whore and defended murder and terrorism should be the country's chief lawyer.


Abraham Lincoln Was Evil (0.00 / 0)
Abraham Lincoln, when he was an attorney, defended murderers in court and argued a pro-slavery case once. I guess that just shows what kind of a personal character he had.

[ Parent ]
Did someone say Holder was evil? (4.00 / 2)
Kanzeon makes the relevant point: if we admire people like Obama who opted to work for the public interest, we can't then turn around and say it's totally morally irrelevant when someone does the opposite.

It doesn't make Holder evil. But it's not irrelevant.


[ Parent ]
Criminal Defense Is The Public Interest (3.20 / 5)
It's in the public interest for every person accused of a crime to receive a competent and vigorous defense.

[ Parent ]
Chiquita International Brands is not a person (4.00 / 1)
except in the "fictional" sense.

If "public interest" is redefined as helping multinational corporations skirt the law, then the words have no meaning.


[ Parent ]
Oh For God's Sake (0.00 / 0)
The same principle applies. If there's no defense for Chiquita then there's no point of a Chiquita trial at all.

[ Parent ]
The same principle does not apply (4.00 / 2)
People, real people, have rights. They have due process rights, which includes the right to an attorney.

Of course, one twisted doctrine that has emerged in this country is that a corporation too has due process rights. But I think this is a heinous invention of business-friendly judges, not a bedrock principle on which the public interest relies.  


[ Parent ]
What's Your Better Idea (4.00 / 1)
So, then in your perfect world, when a corporation is accused of a crime, what happens? Do they get convicted automatically by virtue of being accused?

Or maybe we'll need to have... a trial, in which we'll prove that the corporation is actually guilty. And if we'll have a trial, that means we'll need someone to do the accusing and someone to do the... what do they call it again? Oh yeah. Defense.

Or we could just have no trials and any corporation that gets accused of a crime is automatically guilty.


[ Parent ]
Inquest (4.00 / 1)
No perfect world necessary; it's done in civil law countries all the time.

The adversarial system is not an a priori, necessary way of arranging things. IMO it's particularly ill-suited to policing big corporations.  


[ Parent ]
OK. Fine. (0.00 / 0)
So you don't believe in the system. That's fine.

So then anyone who works within the existing legal system is ill-fit to be Attorney General?


[ Parent ]
No (4.00 / 1)
I don't "believe" or "not believe" in the system. It's one way of doing things. There are others. It has its good points and its bad points. One thing I don't like is giving due process rights to corporations.

Since the "right" of corporations to counsel is not compelled by any moral principle, but rather by an accident of our legal history, I think it is fair game to question the morality of those who choose to go into business defending corporations.

It's not about whether you worked within the existing legal system. It's what you choose to do within that system. One option: represent the people who need it most, and who have a (moral) right to it. Another option: represent companies who have no (moral) right to it, and which need it the least. This choice is not devoid of moral content. That is all I'm saying.  


[ Parent ]
why can't it just be defined as an administrative hearing? (4.00 / 1)
in a separate legal system?

You know, kind of like how millions of immigrants get deported over the years without counsel? ;)


[ Parent ]
Trollrated (4.00 / 1)
I'd like to note that the following comment was trollrated by Ware V. Wendell.

It's in the public interest for every person accused of a crime to receive a competent and vigorous defense.

I just made a plain statement about the fundamental rules of modern justice, and I was rated a troll on Open Left. Well done, progresive Internets. Well done.


[ Parent ]
it was probably a slip.... look at his/her rates above... nt. (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
Good Point (0.00 / 0)
Wendell, I apologize for pointing it out. It's pretty clear now that your trollrate was a slip of the mouse. You're way too smart to trollrate that comment. I should have looked into your comment history more before I wrongly called you out.

[ Parent ]
your logic doesn't follow (4.00 / 1)
because it's in the public interest for every person accused of a crime to receive a competent and vigorous defense, therefore we have to ignore the fact that there is a social context to the legal  profession, that some people choose to go into public interest work (the real kind, not the hold up the legal system kind) whereas other people go work at firms, that some people go for high salaries, others for enough time to spend with their families, others for things they believe in, i.e. JUST LIKE EVERY OTHER PROFESSION.

The sanctimonious approach that some lawyers take as to the value of their profession is occasionally a little too much.


[ Parent ]
Character. (4.00 / 1)
What an attorney does in court is most assuredly a reflection of his character.  The cases he chooses to take are a reflection of his character.

Many attorneys will not do criminal defense because it is too difficult for them to live with themselves, tearing down the credibility of victims who have done absolutely nothing wrong so someone they know is a viper can be set free to harm again.  Many attorneys will not do insurance defense work for the same reason - they get disgusted with themselves after they have sat across the table from dozens of injured plaintiffs and done their best to humiliate, embarass, and intimidate them.  Trials are hand to hand combat, not some intellectual exercise.  The attorney can't just turn off his compassion and his sense of justice during a trial, and then turn it back on later.  

Just because "everyone needs a defense" doesn't make the work NOT a reflection of character and values.

One case isn't conclusive of an attorney's character.  But what anyone chooses to do with their life is most assuredly a reflection of character.


[ Parent ]
But is it justice when (0.00 / 0)
one side does not have good representation?  

If the shoe were on the other foot, i.e., an innocent man accused of murder, (but you don't know that), would you be so quick to blindly state that what cases an attorney chooses to take is a reflection of character?



[ Parent ]
I Actually Don't Like That Argument (4.00 / 1)
I mean, it's a true argument. But I think it doesn't hit the point squarely.

I want the absolute slimiest, most despicable criminals to get the best possible defense. Only if the trial is done in an upright and skilled way can we point to it and say, "See, now no one can dispute that this criminal is truly guilty. He got the best defense he could have possibly gotten and he still lost."


[ Parent ]
We're talking Chiquita here. (4.00 / 1)
Chiquita isn't starved for representation.  They pay huge bucks for it.  The public service aspect is minimal.

Holder isn't jumping to the defense of a client who has no options.  That certainly is a noble cause in itself, and that can blunt the difficulty of facing and challenging victims in certain cases.

But there isn't any public interest here, no higher cause.  Corporate criminal lawyers are expensive and plentiful. Holder could make plenty of money and find plenty of challenging work without defending these particular corporate terrorists.  Someone else can pocket the millions for doing Chiquita's dirty work - and no one really needs to pass judgment on any of them, unless they apply for a position of national public service.  


[ Parent ]
Yes (0.00 / 0)
Only bad people should defend bad companies. That way we'll know who the good people are and who the bad people are. It's just that simple.

[ Parent ]
If you have no interest in discussing the question honestly (4.00 / 1)
then leave the thread.

There isn't a litmus test, here or anywhere else, where a single action normally makes someone morally unfit.

But the question of what you do with your life is an important one.  And going to trials and defending the guilty and tearing down the innocent in court is a hard road.  It has effects on a person.  Many people who could do it, chose not to.  It says something about them.  The choice to either make fortunes defending large corporations or do something more publically-spirited is faced by lawyers every day, and which choice they make is certainly reflective of their values.

WHAT it says is open to debate, depending on the individual.  But it is entirely a legitimate subject of inquiry.

But, at this point, you're just either not capable or not interested in dealing with the slightest bit of nuance, so I imagine this is my last post to you.


[ Parent ]
you seem to always put this in moral terms (4.00 / 1)
which elides the real issue - namely that while you  may wish for the worst criminals to get the best defenses, in the real world, there are resource allocation choices to make.  And the way that resources are allocated by the legal system in the United States is largely according to the market - which means that those with the  most wealth and other social privileges get the best legal care whereas those with the least get the worst.  You seem to have no problem with this, or any remedies for it - this is at the heart of the issue, not Chiquita's evilness alone.

[ Parent ]
Uniquely bad (4.00 / 2)
Chiquita and its predecessors have a long and uniquely bad history of behavior.  In 1954, the company used the CIA to overthrow the popularly elected ggovernment of Guatemala.  Their sin?  Nationalizing banana plantations (United Fruit was paid) and distributing the land to peasants.  So the CIA bought itself a little army and out went IIRC Arbenz.

In the 1970s, bribery in El Salvador brought down the company's management leading to the spectacular suicide of CEO Eli Black who leaped 44 floors from his office in the Pan Am building to his death in 1975.

Whatever Holder was protecting was garden variety corporate crap compared to the decades of colorful corruption of this company.

Personally, the defense of Chiquita doesn't put me off but a lifelong career of serving only the worst of the corporate rogues would be disqualifying.  Holder does not seem from that mold.  


[ Parent ]
I argue the opposite (4.00 / 2)
An attorney whose moral qualms interfere with his ability to do his job, or who is too squeamish to mount the best possible defense, may have very fine character but is probably not a good choice to be Attorney General, or a judge for that matter. Those jobs are not for the squeamish or people morally conflicted about their role in the system. The system depends on people in those offices having a deep appreciation for the roles of each side.


[ Parent ]
How so? (0.00 / 0)
Are you suggesting that an attorney who doesn't take vile clients is a bad attorney, or that an attorney who does take vile clients is a better attorney than one who doesn't?  So the test for who is qualified for attorney general is to find the most cold-blooded human we can?

I can't imagine NOT wanting people who are "morally squeamish" in the postion of attorney general, as the AG has to wield power responsibly and exercise independent judgment in the public interest, not be someone's amoral footsoldier.



[ Parent ]
not amoral (0.00 / 0)
A person who allows their morality or squeamishness to interfere with their ability to do their job, and to serve the justice system, is not a good person to run our justice system. It is not that they should be amoral, but that they must not allow their morality to interfere with their ability to do their duty.

An obvious case is choice, a person whose moral objection to abortion overwhelms their ability to follow the law of the land is not a good choice for the bench. Even Republicans are constrained to honor that principle, or at least fake honoring it.  


[ Parent ]
A little beyond me (0.00 / 0)
It isn't any lawyer's duty to do a certain kind of work.

For example, a lawyer isn't assigned to do evictions for slumlords as part of their duty to the legal system.

Once someone decides to do evictions for slumlords, they have a duty to do a good job.

I would not, personally, think that someone who spent twenty years doing evictions for slumlords would be a good choice for AG, because that shows no concern for the public interest.  That doesn't mean that the slumlord attorney is a bad attorney or a good one, or a bad parent or friend or neighbor - just not a good choice for AG (or judge).

Similarly, no one has any obligation to do work for Chiquita, but taking the work is certainly a legitimate question if that person wants to be AG.

Someone who chooses not to specialize in evictions for slumlords isn't deficient because they want to lead a life where they contribute to the community.  That is a commendable quality in a public official.


[ Parent ]
sum total (4.00 / 2)
We just elected as president a man who once worked for a slum-lord, Rezmar. As far as I know he represented his client well, and I proudly voted for him.

Sure, if representing slumlords or Chiquita were the sum total of a candidate's experience, and that experience were not stellar, then I'd agree that that candidate may not be a good choice. But working for Chiquita, or for a slumlord, or for any defendant, is not a disqualifier.


[ Parent ]
Quoting the original post: (0.00 / 0)
"I'm not saying it should be a fully disqualifying (or qualifying) factor, but it should be a consideration" - David Sirota, original post.

I don't know how this has turned into an argument about disqualification.  The point is, we tally up all the stuff each candidate has done, on both sides of the tally sheet.  If a candidate who only represented Chiquita and slumlords "may not be a good choice," then it seems reasonable to say that representing Chiquita goes on the demerits side of the tally sheet.  It doesn't disqualify him, but for those who feel that Chiquita has been both powerful and malevolent, it certainly takes Holder down a notch relative to those who didn't do such things alongside all the other good stuff they did.  But again: that's an aggregate judgment, not a "disqualification" -- and no one was saying otherwise, I think.


[ Parent ]
what's the difference? (0.00 / 0)
What is the difference between "disqualifying" and "fully disqualifying?" "I'm not saying it should be a fully disqualifying factor" reads to me as "Representing Chiquita is a disqualifying factor."

I disagree, and as I explained here. Using who a lawyer defended before our courts as a disqualifying factor is destructive to one of our civil rights. We should not tally up all of the "good" people a candidate represented and weigh that against all of the "bad" people they represented to determine their qualifications, we should instead look at the quality of that representation regardless of the merits of the accused.

Holder's skill as a lawyer is not the only factor in determining whether to support his nomination, there are other factors that some people may consider disqualifying. But the merits of any particular defendant he chose to represent should not be a factor.


[ Parent ]
Well, the test certainly should not be the most moral (0.00 / 0)
After all, one of the "qualifications" stated for Ashcroft was that he was a "morally upright man."  We're talking a guy who was so squeamish, he covered up Lady Justice, because her breast was showing.  

What Adam B., souvarine, ergotist and I are arguing is that the the best qualified people to be an AG or even a DA are lawyers that have been on both sides of the courtroom.  It gives them a deeper appreciation for the justice system that one would not necessarily have being one of the "good guys" all their career.  

The basic point is this everyone, including corporations, which have been long held to have the same rights as a natural person, have the right to mount the strongest defense possible in a court of law.  

And one of the central tenets of every single state Bar Association's Code of Ethics is that a lawyer is NOT their client.  They are simply hired to represent that client in a court of law, and are actually required to do so to the best of their ability within the limits of evidence, the rules of the court, and the standards of professional conduct.  


[ Parent ]
I think I prefer someone with qualms and who is "morally conflicted" (4.00 / 1)
Having a deep appreciation for the roles of each side doesn't preclude having qualms or being morally conflicted -- quite the contrary.  And many moral and ethical decisions are difficult, and I want someone who appreciates those difficulties.  But I also want someone who will make the right decision in the end.  And many of the decisions Holder will make will be about priorities: what cases to take on, which to pursue.  So I want someone with the right set of priorities, who recognizes that defense and prosecution is not some naive system where clients are assigned at random, but takes place within a world of finite resources and time, and where you have to decide how best to help the world through the selections you make.  Those decisions are the effects of the values of the candidate, and we can measure those values in part by the decisions he earlier made.

[ Parent ]
of course (4.00 / 1)
Everyone has some moral conflict, a candidate who didn't would be inhuman and thus unfit for the office. But if a candidate's moral conflicts prevent them from doing their legal duty as a lawyer then they are not the right candidate for AG.

[ Parent ]
I don't think anyone is proposing such a candidate. (0.00 / 0)
Furthermore, for all his merits, you could be well to the left of Holder and still be able to do your "legal duty as a lawyer" and as AG perfectly well.

[ Parent ]
Maybe my jurisdiction is genteel (0.00 / 0)
Most cases never go to trial, and when they do it very much involves deployment of intellect rather than force. I don't know what your experience is, but from my perspective it looks like your experience is based on fictional sources.

Ignoring, for the moment, that most defense work consists of explaining to your client why his goose is cooked and working out the best deal for him, when these things do go to trial you don't have a lot of "innocent" witnesses in criminal trials. And your ability to attack a witness' credibility is severely restricted by the rules of evidence. AND juries don't tend to fall for attacks on credibility that consist of nothing more than the attorney being an ass. You kind of need something to work with. Inconsistencies in testimony, plausible motives to lie, etc.

As for insurance defense... your perspective is even funnier. Many lawyers won't do insurance defense because it doesn't pay well and isn't prestigious. Insurance companies with monster case loads to hand out have a funny way of negotiating minimal rates. I'm not even going to go into the numerous reasons not to do insurance defense, but feeling sorry for plaintiffs isn't one of them. Lawyers switch from defense to plaintiff side because they feel sorry for themselves not making more money. They take their knowledge of how insurance companies work and use it against the companies.

The reason I don't think feeling sorry for plaintiffs would be a motivation is because cases of clear liability and big damages are settled and never referred out to the lawyers. If you've got clear liability and questions about damages, you know the plaintiff is going to get paid, the litigation just serves to work out what the damages are. If liability isn't clear, then why should you feel guilty representing the defendant on that point? It's possible to look across the table at a plaintiff and feel sorry for him without believing your defendant is at fault. In fact, it really sucks to look across the table at a truly injured plaintiff and know that your defendant IS NOT liable but the truly liable party is judgment proof so everybody knows your defendant is going to end up paying something because life just sucks like that sometimes.

Finally


done their best to humiliate, embarass, and intimidate them

Acting with the intention of humiliating, embarrassing, or intimidating a witness is unethical. Again, most of your questioning of plaintiffs is going to be in the informal setting of a deposition, not at trial. When you're trying to get information from someone, it's generally ineffective to just be mean about it. If a plaintiff is humiliated, embarrassed or intimidated by the fact that they just caught giving inconsistent or unhelpful testimony, that's on them, not the attorney that caught them. Me, I've always preferred to have them give inconsistent and unhelpful testimony without realizing it until their attorney calls for a break and explains it to them in the hallway. That's fun. My point, being a jerk is not a necessary part of being a defense attorney. Assholes are distributed across the many fields of practice.

The attorney can't just turn off his compassion and his sense of justice during a trial, and then turn it back on later.
 

Actually, compartmentalization is a very necessary survival skill for a lawyer. You don't turn off your sense of justice defending the guilty-- your only defense is the mechanisms of justices and if they've been satisfied, your guy is going to jail and you're not losing an ounce of sleep over it. As for compassion, you've got to contain that. Being a good lawyer requires a certain amount of disassociation and understanding your role. You can't be overly emotional and still do a good job. There's too much humanity in here. To register it all would be paralyzing. So it's not a matter of turning things "on" and "off," as much as containing them.

Sorry for so many words. You struck a few chords. :)


[ Parent ]
Good point. (0.00 / 0)
If we praise Obama for the choices he made with his law degree, we can critique the choices others made.  Holder isn't disqualified because of Chiquita, but certainly if we had a choice between him and someone much like him who didn't do the Chiquita work, we would choose the other guy.  The question is whether there are other candidates who made better choices.  Preferring an AG who didn't do such work is in no way to say such work should be done by no one.  If we can prefer a guy who did awesome things with his law degree, we should be able to hold it against someone who did less good things with his (and I fully grant that many of the other things Holder did were quite commendable).

[ Parent ]
I think the question you should be asking (4.00 / 2)
is not who Holder has defended, but has he broken the law or peformed his duties in an unethical manner while representing any client.  Show me that while representing Chiquata, he willingly broke the law to ensure the best outcome possible for them and I will agree that he should not be AG.  

As for bin Laden, see above and apply the same here.  
       


regarding the update (4.00 / 4)
If defending certain clients disqualifies a candidate from the AG position, then what about the deputy AG position? The Associate AG? A State's Attorney? At what level does doing ones job as a defense attorney cease being disqualifying?

And which crimes or circumstances are disqualifying? Genocide? War Crimes? Paedophilia? How do we evaluate a crime or set of circumstances to determine that it causes such a moral stain as to render the lawyer who defends the accused unfit for certain public offices?

Once we have established this regime of crimes that disqualify lawyers for certain offices, how do we convince lawyers to mount the best possible defense of people accused of these crimes? The decision to do so will permanently limit their career, so the best lawyers will avoid becoming involved in trying such cases.

The argument that defending particular clients disqualifies an attorney, as an attorney, is fundamentally corrosive to the right of the accused to a vigorous defense.  


attorney general is not SOLELY a legal position (0.00 / 0)
it is also a political position.  it is also a positio of potential - wherefrom one can move beyond.  So it's in the  best interests of everyone involved to ask as many questions as possible and seek clarifications now rather than later.

If the argument were to disqualify someone based on one contextless example, that would be really problematic.  But hte contrary idea, that one can't politically judge a lawyer by their choice of clients on the whole, as a pattern, is to me absurd.  Surely an Attorney General that spends  their time and energy ensuring that resources are devoted to protecting the interests of the powerful rather than the weak is not someone you would want as a progressive.  Otherwise, what would be the difference between the ways in  which Ashcroft and Spitzer approached their respective positions?


[ Parent ]
yes (4.00 / 1)
Sure, you have to examine how a lawyer defended his clients to see if he behaved ethically and to understand how he thinks. As a liberal Democrat I would prefer a lawyer who spent time defending the powerless over one who was exclusively a corporate lawyer. There is nothing wrong with examining what Holder did in the particular case of Chiquita and drawing conclusions about his approach to the law. All of these points are valid criteria for evaluating Holder as a candidate. Holder has had a long and varied career practicing many kinds of law, there is plenty to be examined.

But it is wrong to argue that Holder's simply defending Chiquita is a disqualifying factor. One would have to show how Holder's defense, not Chiquita's crimes, is disqualifying.


[ Parent ]
i basically agree with you (0.00 / 0)
however, i also know that I haven't worked on labor issues in colombia,  so if I had, I might feel more strongly that this representation, minus an adequate and compelling explanation, is a deal breaker.  So i would simply ask that we allow the people who feel that way the space to make their points without getting vitriolic (and I appreciate that you haven't in this dialogue - so thank you).

[ Parent ]
I guess Im more outraged (0.00 / 0)
that our government gives the Colombian government, police, and defense forces $600 million/year in U.S. taxpayer money despite repeated reports of cooperation among the governing alliance and the paramilitaries and the defense-forces and paramilitaries.

http://www.alertnet.org/thenew...
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/N...

I'm happy that Obama has held strong on withholding the Colombia FTA (which is more symbolic than anything since most Colombian goods already enter the U.S. duty free under the Andean Trade Preference Act) until Colombia makes real progress on human rights. I hope he strongly reconsiders Plan Colombia and at least retools it so the money goes toward social goals and institution building rather than the security forces.

While, like his role in the Rich pardon, Holder's representation of Chiquita is somewhat troubling, his views and actions over the course of his professional life lead me to believe he will be a solid AG.

"Never separate the life you live from the words you speak" -Paul Wellstone


Really amazing (4.00 / 2)
That you can write on this topic, about which I entirely agree with you, David, as if it were new.  It's been covered quite extensively by looseheadprop, bmaz, Dr Kirk Murphy, and me at FireDogLake for the past six weeks, since Holder's name first surfaced.

We've felt quite lonely in the progressive blogosphere and have all been attacked by the legal ethicists, some of whom also populate this thread with their canonical guild regulations as if it were inscribed law.  Welcome to the anti-Holder faction of the progressive community -- the people who now find themselves in bed with Karl Rove, unhappily.

But you should really spend some time reading up on the topic at FireDogLake also.


I was going to run over (0.00 / 0)
and tell bmaz that David Sirota has discovered this issue, too.  

Darkness has a hunger that's insatiable, and lightness has a call that's hard to hear.  

[ Parent ]
Another reason that I'm convinced that Obama is full of it (0.00 / 0)
It is actually funny.  Democratic leaders have been SO dismissive and SO condescending and SO tone-deaf on liberal issues during the past 10-20 years that I really think that a lot of Democrats have allowed their bullshit detectors to become dusty and moldy from disuse.  The idea that a politician might say exactly what liberals want to hear and yet be completely full of shit seems to not even cross the minds of many Democrats.

Here is what Obama said during the third debate with McCain regarding the Colombian trade deal:

OBAMA: Let me respond. Actually, I understand it pretty well. The history in Colombia right now is that labor leaders have been targeted for assassination on a fairly consistent basis and there have not been prosecutions.

And what I have said, because the free trade -- the trade agreement itself does have labor and environmental protections, but we have to stand for human rights and we have to make sure that violence isn't being perpetrated against workers who are just trying to organize for their rights, which is why, for example, I supported the Peruvian Free Trade Agreement which was a well-structured agreement.

But I think that the important point is we've got to have a president who understands the benefits of free trade but also is going to enforce unfair trade agreements and is going to stand up to other countries.

Obama seems to be very much like Bill Clinton in that he intellectually understands what is going in and can talk at great length in a manner that would indicate that he would be very open to policies favorable to liberals.  Listening to Obama during the third  debate where he -- completely unnecessarily -- went out of his way to describe the reality of the labor fight in S. America using an inflammatory term like "assassination" would suggest that he grasps the problems of picking a guy like Holder.  Nope.

It is clear from the Chiquita case, the Marc Rich pardon case, and elsewhere that Holder is a typical, amoral D.C. power broker.  Nothing out of the ordinary.  But also someone who is totally the wrong person at the wrong time.  What the DOJ needs right now is someone who has a deep and unshakable  ethical streak.  If not P. Fitzgerald, then someone like him.  A professional law follower, not a professional string puller.


Wow, You Must Know A Lot (4.00 / 1)
Wow. You must have read a lot of technical papers on the Chiquita case to say that it's clear from his behavior in it that he's a typical, amoral D.C. power broker. Please, tell me in detail what you've learned. Your ideas are intriguing to me, and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter

[ Parent ]
LOL (0.00 / 0)
A lot of "technical papers on the Chiquita case"?  Too funny.

A hate to break the news to you, but Chiquita's actions (a) are no great secret and (b) do not require an advanced degree in particle physics to grasp.

Holder is a guy who is willing to represent sleazy clients for money.  Nothing shocking there.  That is fairly "man bites dog" stuff for D.C.  I'm not saying that he is particularly sleazy for a corporate lawyer or that he has done anything illegal or unethical.  Just that he is a poor choice to do house cleaning in the DOJ and his selection undermines Obama's message that his administration is "going to enforce unfair trade agreements and is going to stand up to other countries."


[ Parent ]
To clarify (0.00 / 0)
When I say that I don't think Holder is unethical, I mean that I don't see any evidence that he has violated any ethical codes as a lawyer.  Do I worry that, as Attorney General, he might maintain inappropriately close ties to former clients and associates and fail to aggressively pursue investigations that would threaten those in his circle of influence?  Yes.

[ Parent ]
That's How It Works (0.00 / 0)
Sleazy clients need to be represented or else the court system has no meaning whatsoever.

No one is disputing that Chiquita is scum. But even scum needs to be defended in court. That's the entire idea of a trial. If there's no prosecution and defense, how on earth are we supposed to decide who is guilty and who is not?

Lawyers are people who defend criminals in court, and when lawyers do this sort of a thing, they are, gasp, paid for it.


[ Parent ]
Pragmatically Problematic (0.00 / 0)
I recommend taking a look at Center for International Policy's analysis of Holder as AG, which I think cuts through the symbolic problem posed by the Holder nomination, and helps Human Rights & Colombia advocates avoid being painted as against the fundamental tenets of the US legal system.

http://www.cipcol.org/?p=703

It argues that Holder's record should not NECESSARILY DQ him from heading the DOJ, but highlights some ways in which his demonstrated posture towards paramilitary-linked entities (like Chiquita) might impact his actual management of DOJ.

Chief among the concerns are that the DOJ has direct oversight of extradited paramilitaries in US custody, and concerns of human rights advocates that only the drug charges will be addressed by US prosecutors and investigators, and that their crimes against humanity could go un-probed.

He concludes that rigorous questioning along these lines in the confirmation is certainly in order.







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