Bigotry You Can Believe In

by: Matt Stoller

Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 16:58


Wow.

President-elect Barack Obama's swearing-in ceremony will feature big names like minister Rick Warren and legendary singer Aretha Franklin, the Congressional Committee on Inaugural Ceremonies announced Wednesday.

Rick Warren, the prominent evangelical and founder of the Saddleback Church in Lake Forest, California, will deliver the ceremony's invocation.

I believe this photo about covers it.

Matt Stoller :: Bigotry You Can Believe In

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Bigotry You Can Believe In | 60 comments
ouch-ums. (4.00 / 9)
my thought process:

"well, it IS just a symbolic role, and it's pretty smart politics, since evangelicals will feel all warm and fuzzy towards obama...."

"wait, it's the f-ing inaugural invocation!  there is symbolic and then there is SYMBOLIC.  ok, yeah... NO.  this is majorly wrong and hurtful and otherwise making me sick to my stomach."  

Agree (4.00 / 4)
It's sickening.

Why elevate an extremist like Warren by giving him this prestigious slot?  

[ Parent ]
I thought Warren was a moderate on gay marriage (4.00 / 3)
But based on this diary, I found
http://www.prospect.org/csnc/b...

Warren dodged Waldman's question about whether he supported civil unions or domestic partnerships, answering instead, "I support full equal rights for everyone in America," adding that he only opposes a "redefinition" of marriage. He went on to say he's opposed to gay marriage the same way he is opposed to a brother and sister marrying (that would be incest), a man marrying a child (that would be statutory rape), or someone having multiple spouses (that would be polygamy). Pressed by Waldman, Warren said he considered those crimes equivalent to gay marriage.

Perhaps I'm the only one here who wasn't up to speed on Warren.  

He is, indeed, a moderate (4.00 / 4)
compared to Donnie McClerkin: that is, he doesn't believe that gays are trying to kill heteros. Or if he does, he doesn't say so.


[ Parent ]
Warren supported Prop 8 (4.00 / 6)

As we've pointed out several times before, in 2004 Warren declared that marriage, reproductive choice, and stem cell research were "non-negotiable" issues for Christian voters..... He came out strongly in support of Prop 8...    saying "there is no need to change the universal, historical defintion of marriage to appease 2 percent of our population ... This is not a political issue -- it is a moral issue that God has spoken clearly about." He's declared that those who do not believe in God should not be allowed to hold public office.

http://www.rightwingwatch.org/...

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I despise Warren (0.00 / 0)
I think what he did to Obama at Saddleback was immoral. He allowed McCain to break rules and wouldn't apologize.

He regularly appears on Fox News, where he recently said we should kill Iran's leader. I think he is way too political to be at inauguration. This decision was led by Pelosi, Feinstein, et al, and obviously Obama signed off so I am deeply disappointed. For some reason Obama has always reached out to the fundies and sometimes I have thought that it was just smart politics. This takes it too far, IMO.

I think the graphic is a little melodramatic, but I expect nothing less from Matt.

I think more than anything these choices show Obama and his team are very confident.  

Confident??? (4.00 / 8)
I think more than anything these choices show Obama and his team are very confident.

What, that no one with a brain is paying attention?

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Confident that (4.00 / 2)
that they kiss the ass of every conservative constituency before his 100 days even starts!
[ Parent ]
I think this means that they are confident (4.00 / 1)
they can win over progressives by passing laws we like, so that in three years time enough of us will help him get re-elected. I'm not saying I'm confident they can do it, but obviously they are since they are not doing the left any favors right now.
[ Parent ]
I'd take that deal (4.00 / 2)
I'd trade Warren at the inauguration for EFCA any day.  
[ Parent ]
And I'd stick (4.00 / 4)
a knife in my ear for EFCA, but that, too, isn't an actual choice.
[ Parent ]
agreed (4.00 / 3)
I was just responding to Lolis's hypothetical - where Obama deviously "wins over progressives" by passing all our legislation, distracting us from the fact that he occasionally reaches out to unsavory right-wingers. I'm just saying, I wish.
[ Parent ]
Do you have a source (4.00 / 1)
for the thing about Pelosi and Feinstein being the driving force behind this decision?

(I'm not trying to be snarky or insinuate that  you're wrong; I'm really just curious. For whatever reason, though, asking a question like this invariably sounds like you're being an asshole.)

[ Parent ]
Expect more of this kind of stuff (4.00 / 4)
From what I can tell from Obama, I don't think our concerns over bigots like this will be heard.  Obama's definition of inclusive doesn't include keeping out bigots.  

However, I do think we can push to get obvious GLBT representation included in some capacity.

Mary Beth Maxwell (4.00 / 9)
It would be a good idea to push even harder on this now.  If Warren in a symbolic role helps us get Maxwell in a substantive role, I'll be pretty damn pleased.

What are Aravosis and Sullivan saying right now?  Time to go check.

Just a reminder (4.00 / 1)
Mary Beth Maxwell is a leading candidate for SecLabor, endorsed by my previously preferred candidate, David Bonoir.
[ Parent ]
this brouhaha (4.00 / 3)
may help get her the spot. I hope so. The left deserves it. Labor deserves a real advocate, too.
[ Parent ]
Aravosis and Sullivan (4.00 / 1)
are not often the voice of reason. Not saying they're wrong about this, but I think they have both basically blown their credibility in general over the years.  
[ Parent ]
Oh I agree. (4.00 / 3)
They remain the biggest gay voices that official DC responds to though.  At least, the biggest gay voices that also post their opinion where the unwashed masses can read them.  

I'm not endorsing them, I'm just saying that what they say tends to matter a lot more than what you and I say, and on a subject like this (or Donnie McClurkin for that matter) it's worth seeing where they're headed.

[ Parent ]
I find it sad-amusing-sad-weird (4.00 / 3)
that this announcement has caused the blogosphere to blow it collective lid, the anger over O's relentless stiff-arming of the left blowing over. There's even a Daily Kos frontpager offering objection!

This isn't in any way a defense of this James Dobson in a goatee--he's a menace--but he won't actually be affecting O's administration and governance, unlike the Iraq War-supporting-torture-enabling-financial-crisis-causing-corporate-criminal-coddling people he's been appointing.

I understand that this is hurtful, especially in light of Prop 8, but the reaction to it...wow.

the dude's not just anti-gay, as matt points out. he is a typical conservative evangelical -- (4.00 / 3)
a spokesperson for a movement that enables all of the nasty practices that you highlight in your post, and then some (such as the denial of reproductive rights to women, for example).  no one in obama's cabinet is this bad, strictly in terms of their political viewpoints (not even gates, i would say).  

and while the invocation is, as you point out, merely symbolic, it is hard to get more capital-S symbolic than the invocation at the inauguration.  so yes, we will cause a storm about this.  

[ Parent ]
Indeed (4.00 / 2)
That's why I called him Dobson in a goatee. O's already cozied up to a worse homophobe, McClerkin, which I thought should've come close to disqualifying O, but Warren's got most issues covered, I believe.

Although remember, O already legitimized this ass by going to Saddleback for his first joint public forum with McCain.

I'm not really offering a dissent, or criticism; as a student-participant of the 'sphere, I'm often interested in the ways the sphere works, the moves that trigger a reaction. I'm more just sitting back and saying, hunh.


[ Parent ]
What worries me is that Warren (4.00 / 3)
clearly betrayed Obama with his Saddleback routine, especially making the rounds on Fox afterwards, yet Obama is still friendly with him. He even prays with him. I wouldn't care if Obama had a somewhat conservative Christian at his inauguration but Warren is too partisan and political. He inserted himself in Prop 8 and should not be given this stage.

Still it is worth noting via Huff Po:

Indeed, lost in the hubbub about Warren, is the fact that the man tasked with overseeing the benediction is a icon within progressive politics. Rev. Joe Lowry, a hero of the civil rights movement and co-founder of the Southern Christian Leadership Conference with Martin Luther King famously called out President George W. Bush during Coretta Scott King's funeral. He also is a supporter of same-sex marriage. But he is not garnering the same attention as Warren for his inauguration role.

It's vintage Obama, several observers say -- bringing the spectrum of the religious/political experience together for one event. And yet, it is also a big source of frustration for progressive leaders, many of whom aren't interested in legitimizing viewpoints antithetical to their message.

[ Parent ]
Rev. Joe Lowry (4.00 / 1)
I didn't know this, thanks.  Perhaps the counterbalance I talked of before already exists.  The schedule says Warren gives the prayer at the beginning and Lowry gives the prayer at the end.
[ Parent ]
So, The SCLC and The KKK, Together At Last! (4.00 / 5)
Sweet!

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3
[ Parent ]
Exactly. (4.00 / 2)
Putting Elie Weisel and Adoph Hitler on the same stage is not balance.  Soem things are just wrong.
[ Parent ]
yea (0.00 / 0)
Rick warren is Hitler or KKK!! cuz he goes around and mass murders gays or torture them and actively seek to wipe them out of existence!. Oh but he is also friend with obama, imagine that!

Oh and obama is a Marxist, terrorist sympathizer, Muslim and an illegal Alien. and Clintons are murderers!

Geez I see some similarities there, perhaps it is for the best what is happening.

[ Parent ]
Sorry, (4.00 / 3)
I should have said "White Citizens Council".

But, then I'd have to explain what that was to some people.

And since my aim was brevity, directness, and punch, I went with what people would recognize.

Because what's important about the KKK for the purposes I'm citing, is that (a) it stands for hatred, intolerance and divisiveness and (b) there is a history of folks drawing euqivilences between the Klan and the Civil Rights Movement.  I'm thinking, in particular, of William Faulkner, as described by Carol Posgrove in Chapter 1 of Divided Minds: Intellectuals and the Civil Rights Movement.  This is not something I made up out of thin air.  There is a loooong history of such thinking.  And it is beyond question that folks like Warrent are demonizing gays, just as blacks have long been demonized by the likes of the KKK.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
No. I did not say that. (0.00 / 0)
My point is that putting a bad person with a good one is not balance.

Pathetic try at a strawman argument.

[ Parent ]
Alright (4.00 / 2)
I just mentioned it to my Mom and she had such a strong, visceral negative reaction; I think I hadn't quite grasped the import of it.
[ Parent ]
It's The Gratuitous Insult (4.00 / 6)
There's not the least bit of pretence that this is politically necessary.  It's what Obama wants to do.

Suddenly, some folks have noticed, all of a sudden.

What I think will be more interesting will be the Obamaphile defense.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
"What I think will be more interesting will be the Obamaphile defense" (4.00 / 1)
not seeing it on this one.  the top-rated diary at the orange satan is an anti-warren polemic.  the comments here have been pretty univocal.  

i mean... the defense would be that he is earning points with evangelicals by taking a strictly symbolic action.  but people aren't making that defense, for the most part....

it is hard to speak up in defense of something when you feel like you just got punched in the gut.  

[ Parent ]
nevermind.... nt. (0.00 / 0)

[ Parent ]
I've already seen (4.00 / 3)
it on dkos.  Yes; "three dimensional chess."

http://www.dailykos.com/commen...

[ Parent ]
haha (4.00 / 2)
That's great.  Great as in "immensely stupid."  From what I'm seeing, the defence they've settled on is "It's not Obama's fault, he doesn't plan the inauguration"

[ Parent ]
Obama Is Always Teh Genius (4.00 / 1)
so, this response was entirely predictable.

But whether it's the master narrative of the defence, well, we'll just have to wait and see.

But, of course, as a newsman, I always appreciate the hot tip!

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
5 under the bus (4.00 / 1)
peace, anti war
environment
unions, labor
GLBT

what's number 5?

Rick Warren is a rightwing asshole (4.00 / 3)
But he is a rightwing asshole who generally agrees with the democrats on certain issues.

You know how you are showing those polls saying that conservatives and moderates want more government?  If you exclude them by actually calling them bigots and assholes they will form against you even though they agree with you on policy.

As such excluding such people would be a tremendously stupid move and not at all pragmatic.

http://transgendermom.blogspot....

Rewarding them seems a much better idea. (4.00 / 3)
In fact, let's reward bad behavior universally.  Jails to amusement parks!  Tax the poor!  Up is down!  Where people throw ducks at balloons and nothing is as it seems.
[ Parent ]
Two questions here (0.00 / 0)
Based on the following premise:

If you exclude them by actually calling them bigots and assholes they will form against you even though they agree with you on policy.

1) Would FDR have gotten such tremendous support for the New Deal without the support of racist southerners?

2) Do we need the support of the "compassionate" evangelical community to pass new programs such as Universal Health Care?

I'm not sure about the answer to either of these questions. A couple of factors -

While I'd love to tell wingnuts to take a fast boat to hell, I wouldn't want to discount their support on economic issues.

OTOH, I have serious doubts that the support of "compassionate wingnuts" would help the progressive cause, given how it would PO most of the existing progressive coalition.

[ Parent ]
You don't have to spit on their faces (4.00 / 1)
But bigots should not get prime presidentially-approved speaking gigs.

No matter how big a constituency they represent.

If not calling evangelicals on their shit is the price for good legislation (and I'm not convinced), I can reluctantly accept that, but this is gesture politics that does nothing but reward them for - as far as I can tell - being colossally vindictive arseholes.

Forgotten Countries - a foreign policy-focused blog

[ Parent ]
DiFi (4.00 / 2)
Her SF office says they don't know whose decision this is, her DC office says authoritatively that it was neither her decision nor the JCCIC's; it was the decision of the Obama Presidential Inaugural Committee.

So, Obama didn't approve someone else's choice; he made this choice.

I think we can stop this. (0.00 / 0)
That doesn't change the unpleasantness of Obama choosing him to begin with, but perhaps it can be stopped.  This is precisely the sort of low-level, low-stakes decision that may be responsive to a wide-scale outcry on the left.  Once he was chosen by the committee, it was hard for anyone within the Obama camp to shoot down the suggestion; but being able to point to a wide-spread complaint might bump that faction over the top, assuming that there was some internal debate about this.  So start up those petitions.

...Or am I being too optimistic again?  Damn, gotta watch out for that...

Too optimistic (4.00 / 4)
There is a very real reason why Obama is doing this, as transgenmom points out above.  While I don't fully agree, I get it; Obama is trying to build a very large majority coalition for his major proposals.  

Does this action do more harm then good?  I tend to think so.  However, undoing this action once the offer is made would certainly hurt.  Obama won't do that.  As I stated above, what we might get is a countering action; say Helen DeGeneres giving a speech at the dinner, with her and her wife at Obama's table.

I strongly believe, however, the meme that the Left is upset at Obama is good for us, even though it doesn't hold up statistically.  (As someone pointed out recently, Chris' existence is within the margin of error.)  This makes it easier for Obama to operate more to the left if everyone knows he has to appease us.

[ Parent ]
Err.. (0.00 / 0)
"Does this action do more harm then good?"

I think you're probably lending WAY too much weight to this.  Seriously, other than just making some of us angry and others happy, this will pretty much be forgotten within a couple days.  No one is going to refer back to this except to say "Remember how annoying it was that..." blah blah blah... This should have no impact on his presidency, and no impact on any policy proposals.

I don't know why he picked Warren, but for whatever reason he likes him.  It would've been nice if someone else had been picked so we could all be happy, but as far as any meaningful impact, I imagine this has none.

[ Parent ]
Think pattern, not specific instances (4.00 / 1)
I think you're probably lending WAY too much weight to this.  Seriously, other than just making some of us angry and others happy, this will pretty much be forgotten within a couple days.

Specifically, you are probably correct, although, Warren himself will certainly remember.  But this isn't a specific event, this is a pattern.

I find myself confused when people here say they don't understand why Obama is taking this action.  It seems pretty obvious to me; Obama is looking for allies in unusual locations among those that agree with him in important areas.

When weighing the pros and cons, I disagree with Obama on this pretty strongly.  Had Prop-8 failed I might be in a more forgiving mood, but that ain't the case.  But lets not pretend there is no reason for this action other than to piss us off.

[ Parent ]
Its a matter of priorities (2.00 / 4)
Do you want Rick Warren and Huckabee to focus on gay marrage or on healthcare?

Being nice and drawing them in to help with healthcare also helps gay marriage as people can focus on only so many things at a time.

I think such attitudes as Stollers are the ones that made gay marrage go from 60% approval to narrowly losing and that really irritates me.

http://transgendermom.blogspot....

[ Parent ]
eh (4.00 / 4)
I think such attitudes as Stollers are the ones that made gay marrage go from 60% approval to narrowly losing and that really irritates me.

Personally, I thought it was the millions of dollars pumped in by the Mormon Church and other right-wing organizations.  That, combined with a very slow and poorly run anti-8 group.

[ Parent ]
Silly Boy! (4.00 / 7)
It was Matt, all right.  All by himself.  Just thinking those evil divisive thoughts, with that lightning and that storm cloud over his head.

Millions of voters streaming to polls, wearing buttons saying, "Now will you STFU, Matt Stoller?"

It was truly something to behold.

Those millions of dollars?  Eh!  They just used that to buy all those buttons, that's all.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
LOL - I think they are selling those buttons (4.00 / 2)
next to the Obama inauguration souvenirs on the National Mall.
[ Parent ]
I think Transgendered Mom is trying to be pragmatic (0.00 / 0)
And she's getting passive aggressive responses.

I'm far from convinced that her POV is even possible. But she raises legitimate questions.

I don't see her blaming Matt personally. I see her pointing to the way we tend to exclude others. And I am guilty of the same "sin" in how I tend to look down on wingnuts.

Heck, Paul Wellstone and Jesse Helms found ways to work together.

[ Parent ]
asdf (0.00 / 0)
I think such attitudes as Stollers are the ones that made gay marrage go from 60% approval to narrowly losing

Troll rate me if you must, but that has got to be the second dumbest blog comment I have ever seen.

undercaffeinated

[ Parent ]
You INCORRIGIBLE Tease! (0.00 / 0)
Now, of course we need to hear about the dumbest one.

And what could be dumber than wanting to follow up one dumb comment with an even dumber one?

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Sadly, (0.00 / 0)
The dumbest is completely and utterly Vermont inside-baseball politics, and as such will disappoint you mightily, I'm afraid.

Actually, looking back, I dubbed that "the biggest piece of ignorant clueless crap I've seen in a blog post," so I guess "dumbest post" is still up for grabs after all.

Okay - dumbest it is, then.

undercaffeinated

[ Parent ]
People can only focus on so many things at a time (4.00 / 1)
But then again, evangelicals (especially megachurch preachers) trend wealthy, so healthcare is less likely to be a personal issue for them, but they have a particularly intense animus against gays.

Hatred of what consenting adults do in the privacy of their own homes and an intense desire to deny them their civil rights has powered the Republican coalition these past few cycles. It may become a less important issue, but it will not fade into insignificance just like that.

This is not a case of the big bad liberals beating up on guys with a few questionable positions. This is pushback against people who are opposed on an absolutely fundamental level to equal rights for gays and lesbians. The intolerance you may be detecting on our side is a) entirely irrelevant in the story of Prop 8 and b) entirely justified, as bigots don't deserve respect.

Forgotten Countries - a foreign policy-focused blog

[ Parent ]
What I don't understand... (4.00 / 3)
is how this move can simultaneously be

a) an important move in building a big bi-partisan coalition to get big stuff done

and

b) a minor symbolic act that the LGBT community shouldn't get too worked up over.

If it really is so minor and merely symbolic, why did Obama have to do it?  And if it really has enough of an impact to build his coalition, why shouldn't the LGBT community treat it as an significant offense?

[ Parent ]
unfortunately, obama is friends with warren (4.00 / 4)
this is not fluke. warren prays with obama. i find it to be one of the scariest things about obama.
[ Parent ]
So what, Paul Wellstone and Jesse Helms were friends too (4.00 / 1)
http://www.buzzflash.com/inter...

Wellstone often said that some of his best friends in the Senate were the people he disagreed with the most strongly. And I think that, at times, he had more in common with people like Jesse Helms, in terms of having the courage of his convictions than he did with some Democrats.

[ Parent ]
Told ya so.... (0.00 / 0)
photo (0.00 / 0)
that is a brilliant graphic
Bigotry You Can Believe In | 60 comments
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