Progressive Accountability for Democrats

by: Chris Bowers

Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 15:00


This morning, First Read argues that there are clear benefits for Democrats who are able to generate public, left-wing outrage against their actions:

When liberals attack: Axelrod and Gibbs have to be smiling this morning with the news that gay-rights groups are angry that Obama has announced that conservative evangelical Rick Warren will give the invocation at Obama's inauguration. Why are they smiling? Because it never hurts -- at least when it comes to governing or running for re-election -- when you sometimes disappoint/anger your party's interest groups (in this case, People for the American Way and the Human Rights Campaign).

This is a widely held view, and is openly shared by Democrats as high ranking as Rahm Emanuel. As long as the generation of public, left-wing outrage toward their actions is understood to be politically beneficial to Democrats, then many Democrats will continue to undertake actions that have the direct or indirect goal of generating public, left-wing outrage at their actions. This is pretty straightforward. As long as the cost of annoying progressives is not only zero, but actually a net positive, then Democrats will continue to annoy progressives ad infinitum.

So, in order to prevent things like the heinous FISA re-write, Robert Gates staying on as Secretary of Defense, or Rick Warren being legitimized as the top minister in America, the solution is equally straightforward. Progressives must make the political cost of such actions unacceptable to the Democrats who are willing to undertake such actions for political benefit.

At the congressional level, I accept kos's premise that the only means of holding Democrats accountable for angering progressives are primary challenges (sitting on your hands or supporting third-party candidates just doesn't work). Or, to be a bit more accurate, the only way for outsiders like us to engage in progressive accountability for Democrats in Congress is to spend actual resources attacking a member of Congress in his or her district. For example, running ads against Bush Dogs on S-Chip flipped some votes back in October. Further, any such expenditure must be backed up with a credible threat that the expenditures will continue to increase in size and potential damage as long as the behavior is not corrected. Finally, the end point of these expenditures must be a serious primary challenge that has a real chance of unseating the troublesome member of Congress. See, for example, that Leonard Boswell and Dan Lipinski were the only two members of Congress to first vote for a blank check on Iraq, and then flip a few months later. The reason was that they faced primary challenges. These primary challenges must be real, they must be credible, and they must extend to red-district Democrats too, since most of the anti-progressive behavior occurs in those districts.

This road map is clear. On Sunday, in D.C., I attended a meeting of several netroots and other innovative progressive organizations to discuss this and other ideas for progressive accountability work (the meeting itself was off the record, but that the meeting took place was not). However, as I discuss in the extended entry, the roadmap for progressive accountability for a sitting President is far less obvious or established.

Chris Bowers :: Progressive Accountability for Democrats
Many of the established mechanisms for holding Democrats accountable to progressives do not seem as effective in the context of a sitting Democratic President. First, there are good reasons to be dubious about the efficacy of a primary challenge on this scale. Not only would it be an incredibly large undertaking with virtually no chance of success, it wouldn't even begin for another two and a half years. As such, it passes neither the "credible threat" test (although I am willing to hear counter-arguments), nor does it deal with more immediate concerns. Second, internal organizing through actions such as Senator Obama--Please Vote NO on Telecom Immunity--Get FISA Right, seem to have shown the ability to make President-elect Obama comment on the actions, but have also resulted in a stock answer of the sort we saw today on Rick Warren:

What I've also said is that it is important for America to come together even though we may have disagreements on certain social issues. (...)

[T]hat dialogue, I think, is a part of what my campaign's been all about, that we're never going to agree on every single issue.

We have demonstrated an ability to get Obama to comment on these actions, but the comment have turned into an off the shelf answer that still, in the minds of many, function as a political benefit to Obama. While I don't mean to discourage these actions at all, and while I have funded them in the past, this is not a proven means of changing behabior.

As such, a different option needs to be considered in the case of Rick Warren: a traditional, mass, direct action. The inauguration is, after all, a gigantic rally designed to accrue political capitol for the incoming President. With this in mind, perhaps the best option is to find some way to cause political trouble for Obama at the inauguration itself. One option I have heard discussed is getting tens of thousands of people to boo Rick Warren when he is speaking to the crowd. The goal of such an action, as I understand it, would be to anger Rick Warren's followers during the inauguration, thus denying Obama a chance to accrue political capital with that group (which is part of what he seeks through this move). Here are some thoughts on this proposed action:

  1. Would there be enough participants? The action would be a flop if there are only a few sscattered boos. If that were to occur, it would discredit the people who tried to organize the action, as it would make them look politically ineffectual. So, it would be a bad idea to undertake the action unless we were confident it would turn into a mass action.

  2. Would it backfire? It is possible that the news reports and image of such an action would simply be another case where Democrats actually gain from angering progressives. In this case, the progressives who booed would be looked down upon, but Obama himself would gain by standing above them and reaching out. So, maybe it is not worth doing because it wouldn't work at all.

  3. Would it be noticed? A lot will be taking place during the week of the inauguration. As such, it is entirely possible that this action, even if large, wouldn't be noticed are discussed in the national news media at all.

If it was a large action with huge numbers of participants that would generate news coverage and cause many of Rick Warren's supporters to be publicly angry at Obama, then maybe it is worth doing. If even one of these three criteria are missing, then it is probably a bad idea to try and organize something like this. So, appropriate considerations must be made before engaging.

Leaving this idea aside entirely, I am open to other ideas on how to engage in successful progressive accountability toward Obama during his administration. We have a road map for members of Congress, but we really don't have one for a sitting Democratic President. Consider this an open thread to brainstorm on such ideas.


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The problem with booing is (4.00 / 13)
it has too much potential for blowback. It allows Warren to play the martyr, for example, and sets up Obama to Sistah Souljah us.

I would prefer to see something wittier, and more subversive. What do you suppose it would take to get Rick Astley to bust out of nowhere singing "Never Gonna Give You Up?"  

Montani semper liberi


Rec'ed for making me laugh (4.00 / 3)
That is a pretty funny, snarky idea. However, there is no way to get thousands of people to start signing that song at the inauguration.

Mass snark won't work. People will engage in activism when they feel it is serious.


[ Parent ]
a lot of people engage in it when they think it's fun too :) (4.00 / 2)


[ Parent ]
turn your back (3.20 / 5)
that was Atrios' rec. and I think it is on target.

[ Parent ]
hold up a shoe (4.00 / 1)
seriously, don't throw it.

[ Parent ]
don't even hold it up (4.00 / 2)
the Secret Service is going to be as nervous as all get out

[ Parent ]
Agree that turning your back is much more effective than booing. (0.00 / 0)
Because it implies a dignified, considered moral rejection, whereas booing is what unruly sports fans do.

[ Parent ]
But seriously arn't all the close enough spaces (0.00 / 0)
for inauguration acts doled out to dependable supporters?

Jeff Wegerson - Prairie State Blue

[ Parent ]
that's what Bush thought (4.00 / 1)
but seriously, I think the Obama inaugural will be one big party. One reason the Warren invite was such a spectacular blunder is that it destroys the era of good feeling that defined the Obama brand. It is needlessly divisive, sort of like Obama's scorched earth primary.

[ Parent ]
i'm as pissed as anyone about warren (4.00 / 1)
but can you just clarify what you meant by this? "It is needlessly divisive, sort of like Obama's scorched earth primary."  I might be reading it wrong (a very real possibility :), but it strikes me as "needlessly divisive" :)

[ Parent ]
Correction (4.00 / 1)
It is needlessly divisive, sort of like Clinton's scorched earth primary.


[ Parent ]
Let's look to history (4.00 / 9)
MLK put massive pressure on Kennedy and LBJ, and Huey Long and other 30s-era leftists put massive pressure on FDR. The lesson  for me is that we need multiple leaders in the spotlight. We still have a lack of credible, mainstream, high-profile leftist Democrats. And bloggers have failed to identify and boost potential rivals to Obama. All the complaining about cabinet appointments just sounds like whining unless you can offer an alternative.

I think it's extremely important that bloggers look to Democratic governors and pressure a few of them to move left. Essentially, that leads to a strategy of primary challenging the president, which is what Huey Long was contemplating before his death in 1935. I think bloggers need to hype up people like Brian Schweitzer. If Obama fucks up, bloggers can point that out and then talk about how much better of a job Schweitzer or someone else would do as president. That'll put more heat on the president than straightforward criticism.


Alternatives and Schweitzer (4.00 / 6)
All the complaining about cabinet appointments just sounds like whining unless you can offer an alternative.

Alternatives were also provided to any pick that progressives criticized. That is a canard that keeps floating around.

Schweitzer is not a progressive alternative to Obama. I'd probably vote for Obama in that primary campaign.


[ Parent ]
Agreed (4.00 / 2)
Except on a few economic issues Schweitzer is far more conservative as are most governors. Two of the only not DLC aligned governors we've got are pushing spending cuts only or spending cuts and regressive taxes (Patterson and Corzine).

We do have a good chance to get some progressives in in 2010 though. R.T. Rybak in Minnesota for example.  

John McCain: Beacuse lobbyists should have more power


[ Parent ]
A real competent progressive alternative in Minnesota (4.00 / 1)
would be Mark Ritchie or even Matt Entenza.

Rybak's a lightweight who's playing at progressive politics while his city burns down around him.  


[ Parent ]
Matt Entenza? (0.00 / 0)
Please tell me that's some kind of cruel terrible joke.

John McCain: Beacuse lobbyists should have more power

[ Parent ]
Not an alternative to the picks (4.00 / 1)
An alternative to Obama.

Schweitzer is just a name I use as an example. I agree he's not a progressive alternative currently, but he might become one further down the road. In any case we need multiple poles of leadership as I said.


[ Parent ]
ZERO credible national candidates among progressive Democrats! (4.00 / 1)
Democrats discount Kucinich because he saw a UFO, or for some other mysterious reason, and no other progressive Democrats have any national name recognition whatever.

Harharharhar!!!

Doesn't that sound like an argument against a third party?

"All high-profile Democrats are sold-out, center-right, tax-rebellion, play-along-with-torture weasels, so...

Let's put some "better" Democrats in Congress!"

"Let's turn the netroots into a fund-raising machine, and spend it all on Democrats!"

Brilliant!

But if you really want to scare the shit out of those weasels, why not promote a progressive party?

If a real progressive candidate takes 7% of the vote away from Obama in 2012, it puts that robotic con-man and his "bi-partisan" friends like Rahm Emanuel back out on the street where they belong!

Or is that too much like a real threat?


[ Parent ]
That isn't a threat (4.00 / 4)
It isn't a threat at all.

It doesn't threaten a single Democratic member of Congress.

It makes it much easier for conservative Democrats to win primaries.

It makes conservative Democrats a larger percentage of the Democratic Party in general, thus providing them more control.

A threat that actually strengthens your opponent's control over their valued institution isn't a threat. It's a welcome development.

Not to mention that the third-party argument was wholly discredited after 2000, even in the minds of most Nader voters. He has lost more than 75% of his supporters since then.

Come up with something else.


[ Parent ]
You haven't really responded (4.00 / 1)
Did you have a response, Chris, to the original comment about history? Maybe that's not your specialty. If we confine ourselves to examples from 1992 on, then yes there are very few models for pressuring a democratic president from the left.

If we look at history before that, however, then we find two models. First, mass direct actions - ie, the veterans' march on Washington during FDR's time and the civil rights movement during the 1960s. Second, primary challenges and third-party challenges. One could argue that some of these efforts have failed; Kennedy's challenge in 1980 may have weakened Carter, though I think Carter was doomed anyway. But some examples are more successful, and that's why I come back to Huey Long, who I think did play a major role in moving FDR left.

What you're doing by criticizing cabinet picks and warren etc is picking fights you will not win. You have no long-term strategy and you are not providing leadership to your readership (pardon the rhyme, I couldn't resist). Leadership in my eyes would be identifying threats to Obama. In fact, I think the threat of a primary challenge to Obama would be more effective than the actual event.

You can shoot down my examples if you want - Schweitzer, and hell I could throw out other names too, though of lesser stature (Van Jones and Cory Booker come to mind). But you have yet to shoot back with an effective criticism of the strategy I've outlined. I also think that the obsessive focus on congress is starting to become a liability for bloggers; leadership isn't always going to come from congress, in fact I think it's more likely to come from our governors and state parties.

Nader isn't a great example, and I don't really believe in third party challenges. But a leftwing Democrat could scare Obama.


[ Parent ]
No need to be nasty (4.00 / 1)
I agree with your basic premise that alternative power centers need to be created. That is why I attended that meeting, for example. Matt was one of the organizers.

So I find this comment both offensive and ignorant of what we are doing:

You have no long-term strategy and you are not providing leadership to your readership.

Perhaps you should have considered that I didn't critique your strategy because I agreed with it. Perhaps I should have been more clear in my agreement, and that I was simply shooting down the examples.

But seriously, arguing that I have no long-term strategy is just flat-out offensive, especially given that I spent the first half of the post presenting one.
 


[ Parent ]
I'm sorry your feelings were hurt (0.00 / 0)
But this isn't about you being offended. I've been extremely disappointed with your handling of the cabinet appointments. It seems highly re-active to me. That's feedback from a reader directly to you, take it or leave it.

I suppose you have a long-term strategy for congress, but wasn't the thrust of this post that you dont have a long-term strategy for relating to Obama?


[ Parent ]
I'm sorry your feelings were hurt (0.00 / 0)
But this isn't about you being offended. I've been extremely disappointed with your handling of the cabinet appointments. It seems highly re-active to me. That's feedback from a reader directly to you, take it or leave it.

I suppose you have a long-term strategy for congress, but wasn't the thrust of this post that you dont have a long-term strategy for relating to Obama?


[ Parent ]
'Come up with something else' if we are still talking about Warren specifically (0.00 / 0)
at the inauguration then I saw something in NH at an Obama"Open Town Meeting style  event that got Obama's attention..... it was right after the debate when the candidates were asked about the length of time for troops out of Iraq.

Someone just held up a small square sign with a number on it and Obama said something to the man about how it was 'clever'.

So have small signs made up with a short pithy message about Warren's position. If enough of those signs are displayed it will have an impact.


[ Parent ]
If you like the third party idea... (4.00 / 4)
Try it in the states.

Vermont has a credible third party, as does Minnesota. The north-east is rapidly becoming so blue that there's room for one there and since California is miles away from a two-thirds Dem majority, there might be a chance there.

Transitioning straight to a third party presidential run just isn't feasible. It would lack the money, the surrogates, the institutional credibility, the staff experience and all the other things a presidential campaign needs.

Plus, Nader was only eight years ago. Bush is still in office. You just aren't likely to find anybody willing to throw an election. And even if you could, Rahm Emanuel wouldn't believe you, he'd just keep the ship running as normal and assume that support would materialise on the day.

Forgotten Countries - a foreign policy-focused blog


[ Parent ]
Let's not forget fusion... (4.00 / 2)
Fusion adds bonuses...not just sticks of primary challenges, but carrots of endorsements. That's how the Working Families Party works in NY State. The only reason why David Patterson is so regressive is because he wasn't elected to Governor but Lt. Governor to Governor Spitzer. When Spitzer resigned in a prostitution scandal, Patterson became governor. Unfortunately, he's not as progressive as we'd hope. Then again, There's always 2010 and primary challenges...

Reading the chapter about the WFP in David Sirota's "The Uprising" is a good place to find out  about the Working Families Party.  


[ Parent ]
Alternative Parties are not enough (4.00 / 4)
Part of the reason that MN (my home state) has viable alternatives is that the basic structure of the electoral system provides fewer road-blocks than other states. Don't know about Vermont.

Our next step is experimenting with IRV in Minneapolis. Just tossing out alternative party candidates is not gonna change the underlying dynamic of the two party tyranny. Similarly, just trying to push for more progressives in the Democratic Party is not gonna change the influence of money and senority in the congress.

The left-wing of the Democratic party should take a long term approach - start by laying the ground-work to support multiple parties, then work to build a new party. That way there is no need to play footsie with the right-wing/centrist Democrats (who will probably just throw you over-board anyway).

"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
I'm all for IRV... (4.00 / 1)
As far as I'm concerned, I can live with both IRV and Fusion; one or the other.  

[ Parent ]
Either way (4.00 / 2)
The point is to make a vote for an alternative less a "protest" and more equal to a vote for the mainstream party candidates.

The electile dysfunction in MN could be a rallying point for such voting reforms, because IF some kind of proportional, fusion, or IRV were in place - we wouldn't be spending time, money, and nerves watching this recount. No matter who ends up getting to be the next MN Senator, they both lost the election because they will be incredibly weakened by this mess. We all lose these contested elections.

 

"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
What's the legal status on fusion? (0.00 / 0)
Wasn't there a supreme court case back in the day that made it illegal? I probably have that wrong, but there must be some reason why more states don't allow it.

[ Parent ]
Vermont (4.00 / 1)
Yes, VT has a third party, the Progressive Party in fact.  And the half-dozen or so state reps they've had elected are good, and not just in really blue areas.

But statewide, anyone familiar with the situation will tell you that it has put the left into crisis.  We have now had the third re-election of a conservative Republican governor due to an incoherent political left in the state.  It isn't that the Prog's are "spoilers" -- I think that's an unfair term, and in any case the P and D gov. candidates essentially tied in the low twenties in the last race -- the problem is more that the Democratic party is poorly organized and without courageous leaders, and the Progressive party does not have a statewide organization and too often sees its route to power being to climb over the Democrats.

Consequently, the left in VT -- while quite successful in the legislative branch -- is spinning its wheels on the statewide races, if not engaging in outright internecine warfare.  There have been some recent efforts to bring the sides together and draw up some sort of peace accord, but it is also going to take at least some reform of the state Democratic party.

As for what conclusions can be applied from this to the question of whether third parties can help move Dems to the left -- all I'd say is that it's been a long, painful slog so far with no positive result at all certain yet.

Tim Wolfe


[ Parent ]
It needs to be said, again (4.00 / 1)
This guy was a long time troll over at MyDD. His goal is to get Sarah Palin in the White House in 2012. He is not a progressive - he is a right-winger.

[ Parent ]
every strength is a vulnerability (4.00 / 11)
Obama's currency is his image. That image will largely shield him from particularized policy-based attacks.

But image-based attacks he will therefore be more responsive to. That's why action at the inauguration is so important. A response there would be a direct response to Obama's image as a uniter, as it would threaten that image. Whereas I think public demonstrations have little value in general these days, Obama's political profile makes them particularly meaningful.

Boos bring images of roudy sports fans, though. That's bad. The trick is to craft the statement to generate different, more sympathetic emotions. I imagine a parallel demonstration outside the inauguration zone that thousands of people can come to, and at the very moment Warren speaks, the whole crowd stands while all their supporters inside the inauguration stand, and everybody at both events turn their backs to the direction of the stage. If there needs to be noise, perhaps singing "We Shall Overcome" would be more effective than boos - especially if it was essentially done in concert with the nearby demonstration.

I think adopting "We Shall Overcome" as the human rights theme song would be especially effective.

In the broader sense? I think crafting this sort of image-based demonstration for particular issues and drawing the contrasts at public events is the way to get attention if, indeed, it turns out we don not have a seat at the policy table after all.

Man. That's all I was really voting for. Just a seat at the goddamn table. Now that seems to be slipping away. I've moved from anger to flat out depression.

undercaffeinated


Can't be outside (4.00 / 3)
It can't be outside the inauguration area. No one will be looking anywhere except at the stage during the inauguration.

[ Parent ]
was suggesting an outside-inside... (0.00 / 0)
...coordinated combo. Obviously outside-only wouldn't matter, but outside thousands doing exactly what the inside hundreds do at the same moment would enhance the inside hundreds for coverage and impact quite a bit - at least potentially.

undercaffeinated

[ Parent ]
"We Shall Overcome" is an excellent idea (4.00 / 4)
especially since it lends itself to mass action. A Rick Astley prank, like I suggested, would be a nightmare of logistics involving a celebrity, a sound system, etc.

But if people in the crowd just started singing when Warren started preaching? It doesn't require any special equipment at all, just people.

Two refinements I can think of are: 1) the traditional media will not cover something like this, so people would have to be prepared with digital video cameras to cover it themselves, and later post the clips on blogs. 2) The fun of singing "We Shall Overcome" is that you get to make up new lyrics for it. People could have these thought out in advance, and distributed beforehand. "Marriage rights for all," maybe? "Change we can believe in?"

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
We Shall Overcome.. (4.00 / 4)
is good. It reminds people that the fight for marriage equality is another battle for civil rights similar to the black civil rights fights, and it focuses attention on this right instead of focusing on Warren (and whether he is offended or not).  

[ Parent ]
I'm warming to that idea (4.00 / 5)
Singing "we shall overcome" while Warren talks, and doing it with backs turned, might be a good idea.

[ Parent ]
We Shall Overcome - too many negatives (4.00 / 1)
There would be serious potential for blowback among the African-American community which as a broad demographic group is very very iffy about equating GLBT rights with their own struggle for voting and civil rights.  

[ Parent ]
Is that our problem or theirs? (4.00 / 1)
Put another way, will African-Americans object because they already object to gay marriage, or would appropriating the song cause them to change their views out of spite?

We can support African-American rights, but they don't own the symbols.

This isn't to dismiss the objection, however. It's merely to ask for more information - what harm does an A-A blowback do that beats the harm of not appropriating the very potent frame of civil rights?

Forgotten Countries - a foreign policy-focused blog


[ Parent ]
The answer is both (4.00 / 1)
Put another way, will African-Americans object because they already object to gay marriage, or would appropriating the song cause them to change their views out of spite?

African-American blowback creates harm in two ways:

1.) it can be seen as an affront to the first African-American President's day in the sun, the black-american community, and black-american history.  It can be read as just more clueless, affluent white liberals ignoring the very real (and violent) history of racial injustice in America.  This will lose you allies and harden the hearts of those already opposed.

2.) African-American (and Latino) allies need to be cultivated if GLBT rights are really going to become part and parcel of who we are as a country.  BUT, there's a lot of trepidation about the very IDEA of being gay, lesbian or bisexual (let alone queer or transgendered) in the African-American and Latino communities. The whole marriage/civil union debate is layered on top of that initial trepidation.

Appropriating civil rights era symbols without first winning over the community is a sure-fire way to lose and lose fast.  

The first frame or meme has to be about human rights and the inherent worth and dignity of all people.  From there you can get to civil equality and civil rights.


[ Parent ]
Opposition to Rev. Warren is not all based on GLBT rights, is it? (0.00 / 0)
Besides, you gotta cross that bridge at some point, no?

Which song would you suggest as an alternative?

"We're Not Gonna Take It!" by the Who, springs to mind, but far fewer folks know the words, and it doesn't have the cultural heft and history.

"I Will Survive"?  

"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
Isn't "We're not going to take it" (0.00 / 0)
by Twisted Sister?

[ Parent ]
Its from Tommy (4.00 / 1)
http://www.lyricsdepot.com/the...


"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
Ah... (0.00 / 0)
Sorry, I don't know as much Who as I should. :-(

[ Parent ]
This is a place of learning (4.00 / 1)


"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
actually (0.00 / 0)
I think the we're not gonna take it we should use is by Twisted Sister.  the version by the Who is much longer and much more cynical, and folks won't recognize it (though i do love it)

[ Parent ]
I didn't even know the Twisted Sister covered the tune! (0.00 / 0)
Clearly, "We Shall Overcome" is, by far, the better choice.

I'd limit any rendition of "We're Not Gonna Take It" to the chorus and this verse:

"We're not gonna take it
We're not gonna take it
We're not gonna take it
We're not gonna take it

We're not gonna take it
Never did and never will
Don't want no religion
And as far as we can tell
We ain't gonna take you
Never did and never will
We're not gonna take you
We forsake you
Gonna rape you
Let's forget you better still."

We can do the "family friendly" version and replace "rape" with "shake".


"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
"We Shall Overcome" ... (4.00 / 2)
is not owned by the Civil Rights era .. hell .. if you remember .. TV stations(at least one I know of) were playing a Springsteen version of it non-stop after 9/11 for a few days

[ Parent ]
See my response above to EnglishLefty (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
Incorrect analysis, as someone who has been (4.00 / 3)
a labor organizer for over 25 years in a mostly minority union, I can say that when we began to discuss this issue with our members as a civil rights issue they got it immediately. I think "we shall overcome" is a great idea If we can get enough people to do it. I would also suggest holding up pink triangles. I'm going to be going with about 20 people to the mall and I can guarantee they will all participate.

[ Parent ]
Remember though (0.00 / 0)
that members of labor unions tend to be a little more "liberal" in their political outlook.  And a majority minority labor union even more so.

Initial WaPo Breakdown on Prop 8:

Majority of Black Voters back ban on Prop 8

And this doesn't sound like someone comfortable with equating GLBT rights with Civil Rights:

From the Washington Post Article:

I think it's mainly because of the way we were brought up in the church; we don't agree with it," said Jasmine Jones, 25, who is black. "I'm not really the type that I wanted to stop people's rights. But I still have my beliefs, and if I can vote my beliefs that's what I'm going to do."

Also check out E. Lynne Harris on this issue:

Say a little Prayer


[ Parent ]
again, only the right was organizing (4.00 / 3)
on the issue. There were no other voices out challenging thse beliefs. Talking to eople about how people are beaten and murdered for being gay just like they were beaten and murdered for being black. It is all in the framing and he discussion. The only real framing and discussion was coming from the right.

[ Parent ]
Video it, please! (0.00 / 0)


Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
This is a good idea (4.00 / 3)
Its better than booing because it will be harder to cast as simply being rude.

The direct relation to past civil rights marches and movements is virtually impossible to spin in any other way.

It has great potential to expand, spontaneously at the event because most folks either know the song, or can fake it pretty well.

In contrast to booing, it will be rather difficult for counter-protesters to "shush" the participants. I mean, Obama might be able to talk-down a round of boos, but would he actually comment on folks singing this song in particular?

The issue of getting enough people to make the song heard on national TV and (hopefully) disrupt Warren's speech is still the main obstacle.

One variation on the "inside/outside" suggestion might help to add voices, perhaps. If cell-phones are allowed in the venue, those of us outside of the event could call someone inside and with the phone on "speaker" join in the chorus of song. Added bonus: the sound of thousands of cell-phones ringing - which, given the access to ring-tones, could all be set to play "We Shall Overcome". Of course, all of this takes organization and planning....

"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
To get the ball rolling (4.00 / 1)
download the ringtone

http://www.thumbplay.com/join/...

"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
if you start singing we shall overcome (4.00 / 2)
everyone will  join you, so you better have some press materials distributed beforehand.  Otherwise, it's just going to turn into pro-Obama messaging / enthusiasm, is my guess (i'm notoriously bad at these guesses though :)

I would pick something more like Aretha Franklin's Respect, but easy to sing.  I don't know my women's movement / lgbt movement music, but presumably there is something in there people can will sing along to.


[ Parent ]
Holly Near's (4.00 / 2)
We are gentle angry people, and we are singing, singing for our lives.

It is easy to teach to others. You can easily put in "we are gay and lesbian people", etc.

We sang about 100 choruses in front of the Diablo Canyon nuclear power plant in 1981 and the man next to me cried for the whole time -- it was very moving.



[ Parent ]
There is always this Bob Marley tune: (0.00 / 0)
http://www.lyricsfreak.com/b/b...

"If you are the big tree, let me tell you that
We are the small axe, sharp and ready
Ready to cut you down (well sharp)
To cut you down"

One of my favorites



"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
I think hurtling eggs (4.00 / 3)
at Bush's car was a lot better than these kind of sappy 60s non-violent gestures.

and no, I'm not above hurtling eggs at Obama at this point.

what I think the left needs to really do is getting outlandishly aggressive at Obama. right now its all "oh he's so so". whatever, just go after him. hard core. what that looks like i'm not sure, but I know turning your back on Warren isn't it. Warren isn't the problem. Obama is the problem. Turn your back on Obama. Better, throw eggs at him. Boo his wife - EVERYWHERE. Seriously, do it. Of course its personal, so is his fucking around on illegal wire tapping and having some bullshit view of "equal rights".

His surrogates will be less protected than he. Pie in the face of Rhambo and Geithner. Do like PETA - throw paint on their jackets. Shit to piss them off.

~* the * Will * to go on *~


[ Parent ]
Terrible idea (4.00 / 3)
This is a great way to destroy the alliance we have with the African-American community and alienate just about everyone else in society. Unlike the Right, we don't control the mainstream media and so we can't control how this is viewed. We are likely to lose our allies and hence the power we have secured. We need to build and exert power, not piss it away.

[ Parent ]
Yes (4.00 / 2)
And move into the fringes even more. You will lose every conventional ally in the media and even blogs right away and be treated as the enemy. heck you probably wont get 10 regulars here supporting that which is pretty lefty.

[ Parent ]
You're ignoring ObscureName's point (0.00 / 0)
"Warren isn't the problem. Obama is the problem."

[ Parent ]
Egging cars is also non-violent (0.00 / 0)
The idea here isn't to target Obama, or his wife. The idea is to embarass the nit-wit preacher with which he will be sharing the stage.

If you want to throw things at politicians, take off your shoes and draw a bead on Bush, Cheney, Rove, Rice, and another other Bushite that sticks their little rabbit head up and tries to spin the past - that includes YOU Robert Gates.


"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
progressives don't respect themselves (4.00 / 3)
when the vote to censure MoveOn came up Hillary opposed and Obama supported it. Result? MoveOn endorsed Obama. Why should Obama respect progressives? We don't respect ourselves.

Um... (4.00 / 1)
Maybe because Iraq as slightly more important than a symbolic resolution?

Conduct your own interview of Sarah Palin!

[ Parent ]
It is because Iraq is important that Obama and the Dems (4.00 / 2)
need to be made to see god.  Obama has already back tracked on pulling all the troops out of Iraq, repealing the Bush tax cuts, FISA, and renegotiating NAFTA.  To add insult to injury, he is bringing a crazy right wing bigot in to pray at us.   I think people should simply turn their backs.  It is easy to do and not easy to demonize.  Peaceful resistance was King's club.  

They're asking for another four years -- in a just world, they'd get 10 to 20. ~~ Dennis Kucinich  

[ Parent ]
That vote was why (0.00 / 0)
I voted for Clinton in the MoveOn.org endorsement vote.

Eventually, I endorsed Obama in the primary, but only after the delegate math made it clear he would be the nominee.


[ Parent ]
you supported Clinton? (4.00 / 1)
Wow. I find that shocking.

[ Parent ]
I didn't say I supported her (4.00 / 3)
I said I voted for her in the MoveOn.org vote. Feel free to actually read the link where I explain the work instead of just finding stuff "shocking."

[ Parent ]
Maybe praise? (4.00 / 3)
If anger from the left is good for Obama, maybe praise from the left is bad? Maybe when he does something shitty like this, we should be really happy, e.g. "Ah, Comrade Obama finally came through! The revolution is here!"

Conduct your own interview of Sarah Palin!

This is interesting... (0.00 / 0)
Perhaps we ought to spin these disappointing incidents as not only good for the left, but bad for the right... for example, many defenders of Obama's actions have suggested that Obama appoints centrists and right-wingers to his cabinet to provide cover for moving to the left. If we can convince right-wingers and BigMedia that Obama is hoodwinking them, perhaps Obama will re-think his choices.

The downside is that this won't necessarily lead Obama to appoint liberals instead.


[ Parent ]
Sarcasm! (4.00 / 1)
It would be hilarious (and perhaps effective?) to just be total dicks about this total dick move. When Warren comes out to speak, we cheer wildly as though he were a total star. Whistles and "Hallelujahs!". Have progressive activists give interviews saying things like "Omigod. Rick. Fucking. Warren. OMIGOD!" Organize groups outside the Inauguration to pretend they're super psyched about Rick Warren being there. Call him "a genius".

Maybe that's what this movement needs is some serious public needling of our Representatives. You can't get arrested for making fun of somebody. Coupled with smart process-strategy, some unabashed sarcasm could be our bread and butter. They'd never know if they were being mocked or supported. And yet we'd know. Check-mate!


[ Parent ]
wave (4.00 / 5)
rainbow flags and hold up signs "Warren +hearts+ Fags".

~* the * Will * to go on *~

[ Parent ]
Water and Donuts (4.00 / 2)
Yes! Act like he's a total Gay Rights supporter. Like there's no one gayer than Rick Warren. There probably isn't!

[ Parent ]
What is the point (0.00 / 0)
of sarcasm if no one knows if you are being sarcastic or not? Maybe it makes you feel good, but it accomplishes nothing at changing the way Obama operates. We need to find ways to exert power, not think of new ways to express our feelings.

[ Parent ]
tell that to Senator Sanders (4.00 / 4)
sitting on your hands or supporting third-party candidates just doesn't work

if the voters of Burlington VT had taken that advice many years ago we would not have Senator Sanders, one of the best. As a national strategy 3rd parties does not make sense, but there may be many individual cases where it makes sense.

And how many of the better Democrats hyped by Kos voted for the Peru Free Trade Agreement, FISA abuse, continuation of the Iraq war and a bunch of other stuff?


Remind me again (4.00 / 1)
Of the Democratic nominee that ran against Sanders, and also of which party Sanders caucuses with in the Senate.

Sanders is an Independent In Name Only.


[ Parent ]
But... (0.00 / 0)
...he couldn't have made it as an independent without upsetting the establishment, which were both Democrats and Republicans. Eventually, he found more common cause with the democratic party, but he has carved a path for an independent to "make it in the big leagues" so to speak.  

[ Parent ]
I am talking about his run for Mayor of Bulington (0.00 / 0)
Sanders got his start by winning a 3 way for Mayor of Burlington. Then he was such a good mayor that he moved up. 2009 (KY, VA, NJ) may offer local 3rd party candidates who deserve a chance. There may even be 3rd party candidates at the federal level in 2010.

and I really think we shouldn't be getting our advice from Kos.


[ Parent ]
But if you ask me... (0.00 / 0)
...The best way for third parties to succeed is to start small, like a small-town mayor or state senator, then "climb the ladder." That way, they can succeed and make it to positions of major influence, like Bernie Sanders.

[ Parent ]
Climbing the ladder is tough (4.00 / 1)
as the system is basically designed for two major parties.

Structural reform is needed to equalize the playing field. The "best" that a progressive party can hope for without changing the two-party system, imho, is to break the Democratic Party so badly that it dissolves, then step in to reorganize a new mainstream party that is shifted substantially to the left. Now, is a good time for this, actually, as the GOP is rather weak.

"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
i think it's the other way around (4.00 / 1)
that you build a strong big tent party and then mount a challenge against the rightwing elements int he democratic party from within.  I think this makes sense because the primary argument against third parties is always "spoiler" whereas the threat of a spoiler is lessened the weaker the republicans are (as you point out).  

but that's a long term project, and contrary to what people keep arguing, i think is actually aided by anything that threatens the hegemony of the two party system, whether it is a third party in a particular election or IRV / fusion voting more broadly.


[ Parent ]
The Two Party Tyranny is the fundamental problem (0.00 / 0)
I've said as much elsewhere on this thread. I do not think that the mechanism I described above is a good route to take, nor do I support your approach. As long as the two party system stays in place, the general tendency of the MSPs will be to move toward the "middle". Just as soon as the left-wing of the Democratic Party "takes over", but either mechanism, the right-wingers will get to work undoing that "revolution". A separate progressive party will not have to bow the any conservative agenda.

"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
my argument is that (4.00 / 1)
given the realities of the political structures now - there are two paths to a "separate progressive party" - one is to take over the bulk of the democrat party and its agenda from the inside, and the other is to do so from the outside.  My argument is that the first is probably more feasible, but both can and should be pursued.  

The real clincher should be that deep structural reforms that make it impossible for the right to undo what is done should be part of the process - things like IRV, like the ERA would have, etc.  But utlimately, I think a new constitution is necessary, once that separate progressive party/force is in a position to have power.  But that's some ways down the road and we have to deal with the world as it is while we plot the world as we would like it to be - and i do think we need to do both - doing one or the other alone leaves us, as you point out, no better off than today or with no guarantees of a permanent progressive set of policies / institutions / laws.  For example, why exactly is it that half of the congress is grossly unrepresentative and overweights some states' votes and underestimates others?  Why do we not have serious discussions on undoing this?


[ Parent ]
Well, I don't only think about progressives (0.00 / 0)
So I prefer to change the system first, or at least prioritize it. I don't just want 3 parties. I don't trust any political party in the two party system to actively work to undermine their power by expanding the system to multi-parties. Not even progressives.

I'm not even sure what you are referring to in the last two sentences.  

"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
oh i'm talking about the senate (0.00 / 0)
sorry :)

[ Parent ]
Don't get me started on the US Senate (0.00 / 0)
They have outlived their uselessness.

"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
And he ran and won as a socialist (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
As for What to Do (0.00 / 0)
I'd look to what AIPAC and/or the NRA does.  They seem to be taken seriously.  Do they limit themselves to primary challenges?

They have .. (4.00 / 2)
shitloads of money .. to make their point

[ Parent ]
This idea that Obama (4.00 / 2)
is legitimizing Warren as the top pastor in the US seems just strange to me. You think evangelical Christians look to Obama for guidance on who their top pastor?

Hahahahahahahahahahaha ...

Criticize the Warren pick all you want, but not for that reason. Warren is getting a lot of heat for agreeing to "legitimize" Obama by the fundies. Both Obama and Warren may suffer for the invocation by opposing beliefs. I have to say it is amusing that these groups are united in their rage and mutual intolerance for each other.


Good. (4.00 / 4)
So if we do manage to get something together, sing "We Shall Overcome" or the like, it will make Warren's friends mad at Obama for letting Warren be embarrassed in public.

The more we can do to sabotage the little Love-in Obama is cooking up with the Religious Right, the better. Those people had the run of the White House for the last eight years, it's someone else's turn now.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
It's fine that you want to do that (4.00 / 1)
But that is not what Obama ran on, or ever claimed to be. In fact, it is what he has always criticized. He appointed Republicans to his cabinet and said he would listen to all good ideas no matter which party they came from.

Bush/Cheney got eight years but a lot of people hate them for their incompetence AND their complete intolerance of other views. I just read that 24% of people think Republicans should be in charge. They are being rejected for their hate.

The left should have strong principles but we should not be so exclusionary that we demonize groups. I think it is a problem that Obama thinks that gay rights is a social values issue and not a civil rights issue. That is something to change and fight against. We have to find the right balance of fighting for our convictions and tolerance.


[ Parent ]
Believe me, I know. (4.00 / 4)
Obama wants to be friends with the corporate powers-that-be and the Religious Right. He was always upfront about that, God bless him, though many of his supporters seem surprised to hear it, now.

He needed the support of the Left to win, and he got it, but he did not win our silence and complicity.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
it's more than fine (4.00 / 1)
it's necessary.  if that's not what obama ran on, then people who disagree with him need to figure out how to engage with him.  It's not like the Christian right sat idly by while their commander in chief, Bush, was picking supreme court justices that are going to determine our lives for the next 20 years.  Why should we do any different with Obama?

[ Parent ]
I thought this could backfire, too (0.00 / 0)
Obama could think he is elevating Rick Warren, but the religious right who thought Warren was too liberal may have another club to beat him with.

Warren would be made the "top pastor" by this in the sense that Billy Graham was the top pastor. People respected him as a religious leader and looked to him even if they had nothing to do with evangelicalism. This cannot be done by political leaders singling someone out.  

"Here's a song about blind faith. That's always a dangerous thing, whether it's in your girlfriend--or if it's in your government." Bruce Springsteen, quoted in Glory Days (Born in the USA tour??)  


[ Parent ]
Pressure points (4.00 / 2)
Martin Luther King was successful because JFK and LBJ were sympathetic to the cause (and mostly worried about southern Democrats) and partly because he was able to get sympathetic coverage from the mainstream media. Obama seems to be unsympathetic to our concerns about Warren and the mainstream media is probably mostly hostile to our concerns (but maybe Oprah and Ellen DeGeneres would be sympathetic). We really need to have more sympathetic media to help us pressure Obama. What would enable us to get that?

The media is sympathetic to gay rights. (4.00 / 3)
Full stop.  New York, Hollywood, Washington, all of it.

They are not sympathetic to anything else progressives care about.  But they are fully onboard with gay rights.

That's why a large public protest like the one being conceived here has a chance in hell of working.  A gay rights protest (because despite the choice angle, that's how this is going to be perceived in the light of Prop 8) in the middle of the inauguration (of the first black president, no less) should get some pretty interesting media coverage.  They won't ignore us on this particular subject, nor will they spin us as DFHs.

Putting pressure on Obama on gay rights is the odd element.  I'm sure he, like all of gay leadership up until last election day, thinks that quiet, low-profile forward progress is the best way.  Instead he gets a redux of Clinton's gays-in-the-military blowup from 1993.  I'm not sure what the effect of public pressure on his policy agenda would be.  Drawing attention to the subject might actually slow him down, I don't know.  Making a big deal of this might make the repeal of DOMA more difficult, not less, for instance.

Putting pressure on Rick Warren on gay rights is an unambiguous good though.  Call him a bigot to his face.  Tell him that you don't think he belongs in polite society.  Embrace the imagery of nonviolent, moral struggle for social inclusion.  Ostracizing the core supporters of Prop 8 is quite probably a good strategy.  Or maybe it just feels good.  But protesting Rick Warren has a more compelling internal logic to it than protesting Obama for choosing Rick Warren.  We're turning our backs on bigotry, and secondarily challenging those who try to embrace it.


[ Parent ]
they are sympathetic to SOME gay rights (4.00 / 1)
full stop.  I didn't hear much sympathy for the decrmininalization of cruising during the whole Larry Craig thing.

[ Parent ]
Really? .. (4.00 / 1)
The media is sympathetic to gay rights.

Have you seen what Andrew Sullivan has written?  I don't mean people like Ellen either .. I am talking about people like Anderson Cooper(obviously it is just a rumor .. but given that there are a lot of rumors .. you'd think he'd at least be sympathetic) .. or other TradMed figures .. not the entertainers(Yeah, I know that is what CNN and MSNBC really are .. but you get my point)


[ Parent ]
"the only means of holding Democrats accountable for angering progressives are primary challenges" (4.00 / 1)
This is precisely why some of us were aghast at the STFU that pervaded the blogosphere (and many real-life interactions) when any suggestion was made that:

1. Barack Obama was less-than-perfect
2. Hillary Clinton might be a worthy alternative

That's not to say that we'd be substantially -- or at all -- better off if that other centrist had been the nominee.

The shutdown of quality debate (Kos declared he didn't have to be "fair," DU and most A-list blogs' comment sections became inhospitable in the extreme to anyone besides Obama true believers, only one candidate would be supported by MoveOn, etc.) meant there was no bidding war for progressive votes, even in the phase of the campaign where one traditionally is supposed to curry favor with one's base.

Obama had us (if "us" = the liberal intelligentsia) at aloha, and progressives have been an afterthought -- or, rather, nonthought -- ever since.

We just went through perhaps the world's longest primary, but at least in elite progressive circles there was no primary challenge, once Edwards dropped out of the race.

And here we are, noting that primary challenges are the only place to pressure Democrats. Sigh.


Sigh. Not this again. (0.00 / 0)
#1. Hillary Clinton voted for the Kyl-Lieberman Amendment when the war was on people's minds. Not to mention that she didn't regret her vote for the AUMF on Iraq.

#2. If Hillary Clinton were to become president, The last four presidents would be Bush/Clinton/Bush/Clinton. Seems Aristocratic.

That's why people were against her. Not merely some cult of personality. I know it looks silly in retrospect (now that Hillary is SecState), but that's what we thought at the time.  


[ Parent ]
What part of (2.40 / 5)
"That's not to say that we'd be substantially -- or at all -- better off if that other centrist had been the nominee" don't you understand?

I'd be happy to debate your lame-ass points if they were germane here, but they're not.


[ Parent ]
Sorry. (0.00 / 0)
No need to be a jerk.  

[ Parent ]
Apology accepted (4.00 / 2)
IC, as to my "jerky" response:

It's quite frustrating that any attempt to learn lessons from the primary is instantly reduced to (tacit or otherwise) accusations that one is a Hillary dead-ender.

The STFU that pervaded the primary has been replaced by a kneejerk refusal to take an honest appraisal of what happened in the leftysphere (plus, of course, more STFU, including for folks like Chris, Matt, and David here who are doing the progressive-blog thing of wanting our new president to be as progressive as possible).


[ Parent ]
There was no alternative... (0.00 / 0)
Kucinich may have been an alternative, but that was never.going.to.happen!

As far as Edwards, he does not have the credibility to claim that he is progressive and would have been mired in a sex scandal like 2 months before the election.  


[ Parent ]
In the last phase, there was an alternative (4.00 / 6)
We had two centrists with stunningly similar voting records going against each other.

The opportunity was ripe for grilling them for their progressive bona fides, but it didn't happen because the "creative class" fell in love with one centrist and demonized the other.

To paraphrase the Lending Tree ads: "When Democrats compete for progressive votes, we get a more progressive nominee."

Obama has never felt the need to lean left because he's never had that need. He could cave on FISA, promise that faith-based groups would "help set our national agenda," use derisive terms like "Chablis-drinking limousine liberals," praise Republican policies of environmental deregulation, and champion a $700B Wall Street giveaway to keep his election-horizon unclouded because he's never had to worry about support from progressives.

If he ever had a legitimate reason to doubt liberals' support, he would have been a much better candidate, and he would have built up the progressive campaign during this campaign (instead of just building the Obama brand).

In this GOP-in-the-toilet year, he could have done what Reagan did in 1980 for Republicans and conservatives. Instead, he played it post-partisan down the line, and until the financial meltdown, he allowed a can't-win GOP ticket to pull even. Fortunately for Obama, he wasn't just running against Vietnam II, he was running against Great Depression II, so the degree of difficulty eased up rather a lot.

Would he have won without the meltdown? I think so. The GOP brand was just too toxic. But the Democratic / liberal brand hasn't been defended much at all either, and that's a damn shame.


[ Parent ]
Interesting... (4.00 / 1)
I don't know who would have done the grilling or even if it would have worked out the way you described, but interesting nonetheless.

For the record, Hillary Clinton was simply never an option for me. Period.

Who exactly are you including in the "creative class?"


[ Parent ]
When the primary started, Hillary was my least favorite (4.00 / 2)
For a variety of reasons, she grew on me, and Obama kept pissing me off by throwing progressives under the bus again and again. And the free-flowing STFU and kitschy hype from his supporters didn't make me feel all that great about his "movement."

HRC seemed to like the Democratic / progressive brand, whereas Obama shunned it in countless ways.

That said, they're both centrists with mostly similar policies. Instead of a bake-off for who was more progressive, it was (among opinion leaders) a summarily judged hope-and-hate-off.

If netroots had held Hillbama's collective four feet to the fire (instead of making Hillary dance in burning-hot iron shoes), that's who could have done the grilling.


[ Parent ]
it was never going to happen... (4.00 / 1)
but a Black president was.

I think this issue is worth exploring further - why wouldn't a progressive president happen in 2008, but a Black centrist
(center left if you want) president would?


[ Parent ]
A progressive president might have happened... (0.00 / 0)
but it wasn't going to be Dennis Kucinich. For instance, I think a genuinely progressive Obama, Clinton or Edwards would have won.

As far as a black president being elected, I think that's a question worthy of separation from the question of a progressive president.

Furthermore, I would add to that question, "Would Obama have been elected if he weren't also half white?"  


[ Parent ]
what makes you think this? (4.00 / 1)
a "genuinely progressive Obama, Clinton, or Edwards" would have been painted like a Kucinich :)

We have a lot of work to do :)

I do, however, think that a genuine populist could have won if there was a fair playing field (i.e. if they shut the media off for a year).


[ Parent ]
oops (4.00 / 1)
that should say "wouldn't have been painted like a Kucinich"...sorry about that.

[ Parent ]
Well it's my opinion... (0.00 / 0)
that Kucinich is painted as a "crazy liberal" in part due to his personality, appearance and some of the quirkier things he's said, such as believing in UFOs and wanting to form a Department of Peace.

That's not to say I hold any of that against him, but I think it's a matter of perception rather than positions on issues.

If I remember correctly, Obama was painted as a socialist in the weeks leading up to the election, so it's not as if Republicans didn't try to put Obama in the same boat as Kucinich, they just weren't successful. I think it was a matter of perception more than anything else.  


[ Parent ]
Normally, you threaten his priorities (4.00 / 4)
Unfortunately, his stated priorities are health care, energy, and withdrawal from Iraq, which seem to be his positions that are most popular with progressives.  Do you offer to give him more leeway on Afghanistan if he is more pleasing to progressives in other areas?

You're also not going to get him to go back on his core identity traits, the post-partisan vs Bush/Rove partisanship or the calm, collected, above-the-fray candidate vs the angry maverick John McCain.

What's left? Political threats against his friends?  Promise obstinate opposition to the things that Obama's closest political supporters prioritize, regardless of how you feel about the issue?  It's a bit difficult because you have to be willing to go against your interests in the short-term in order to make a larger point.

Things You Don't Talk About in Polite Company: Religion, Politics, the Occasional Intersection of Both


Threats still work (0.00 / 0)
If progressives get ignored, they can stop playing nice. Refuse to agree to compromises. Throw out any bill with clean coal money in it. Torpedo funding for Iraq. Appropriate funding for our priorities, not his. Make a fuss. Embarrass him and shift the Overton window.

Sadly, these things do require Congress to get a spine.

Forgotten Countries - a foreign policy-focused blog


[ Parent ]
That assumes progressives have a majority (4.00 / 2)
That's not the case.  There's not even a progressive minority that can filibuster in the Senate.

The most threatening threat is to be as obstinate as Republicans were on the auto bailout.  Are Congressional progressives willing to vote as a bloc and threaten to scuttle something like a stimulus package without concessions on totally unrelated issues X, Y, and Z?  Would they be willing to carry out their threat of mutually-assured destruction?

The key threat that progressives have is to go down in flames willingly and take Obama along for the ride.  But first, progressives have to establish enough hooks into Obama to guarantee that if we go down, he goes down with us.

Things You Don't Talk About in Polite Company: Religion, Politics, the Occasional Intersection of Both


[ Parent ]
there is always a possibility of difference (0.00 / 0)
and here, once the details of the actual health care,  energy, and Iraq withdrawal plans are looked at carefully,  you will know what form of these you prefer.  A lot of progressives, for example, support single-payer health care - this is very different from the extension of the current system.  Now would be a time to start advocating for a national single-payer health care plan and building up an actual policy apparatus that has some power to stand up against whatever other form is offered.  You want to control the debate, not the other way around.  

But since we can't, this way, you might get a tenth of what you want as a progressive on health care.  Same with energy and iraq.


[ Parent ]
We should get some more states to legalize gay marriage (4.00 / 5)
Until it becomes the norm, not the exception.

Obama turned out gay and lesbian voters hugely this cycle, and he probably will next cycle, especially if the GOP nominates Sarah Palin or some other dinosaur.  He is virtually invulnerable on this front electorally, and he got there by espousing exactly the position he espouses today.

National democrats will openly support gay marriage if they don't perceive a cost to doing so.  That will only happen when

1) A bunch of old politicians with outdated values die or retire, and
2) Gay marriage is thought of as the norm

State-level efforts have proven to be fruitful on 2).  This is where we should focus our energies, especially considering that the scale of state-level efforts is such that blogs like this one can have a high impact.


he actually lost 7 points from kerry on self-identified lgbt voters from what i remember (4.00 / 2)
though it's exit polls, identification issues, blah blah blah, that make you wonder about such things.  And it was a seven point loss from 77 to 70 :)

[ Parent ]
We don't have an organization (4.00 / 5)
and that's what every idea put forward requires. Every idea begins with "If enough people do x, then ...". But the missing link is always the enough people. Sometimes enough are generated through some internet viral process, but each such process is unique and none are the product of an organization and none contribute towards the growth of an organization.

Question? What's going to happen with all those people of the Obama campaign organization? Will they be mobilized to support Obama's legislative agenda? And will they be directed against the progressives as well as the authoritarians?

But your question here, Chris, is an important one. Important enough for me to add a comment, however imprecise it may be.

Jeff Wegerson - Prairie State Blue


We have two: Obama's list, and MoveOn. (4.00 / 3)
Three if you count the informal network that is the readers of DailyKos and HuffingtonPost combined.

Four if you count the ability of Facebook to spontaneously generate lists.


[ Parent ]
The facebook (4.00 / 1)
spontaneously generated lists are viral and as such I do not consider them a robust organizational structure. I suppose with experience some such structure could emerge.

"We", as in progressives don't have Obama's list. Actually you make a pretty good point about Moveons list and organization. And again informal networks that make up DailyKps and Huff and even TPM are amateurish compared to what I think are needed.

I think Obama's organization comes closest to a professional organization. Unfortunately it appears to be pretty top-down and therefore not really progressive.

But really I don't really have a good handle on the quality of these other organizations.

Jeff Wegerson - Prairie State Blue


[ Parent ]
In other words... (0.00 / 0)
none.

[ Parent ]
The only accountability (4.00 / 8)
that works for politicians are political consequences.  The left is currently unable to exact political consequences on any politician, so we are, of course, ignored or vilified.  Chris has summed it up very well.  Progressives have no real choice but to continue to support mainstream Democrats, no matter how many times they fuck us over, because there is no other electoral option available to us.  The Dems know it, and continue to exploit that situation.

We came close with Lamont and Lieberman of exacting political consequences.  That's why so many mainstream Dems tacitly or explicitly supported Lieberman, because his defeat would have been a clear signal that Progressives had the political power to compel accountability, a frightening concept for Democrats.

I think the general strategy of primarying Dems -- and not just going through the motions but really knocking a few of them off -- will send the message to BOTH the congressional Dems and the President that we are a political force to be reckoned with, and we have the power the force accountability on those who exploit our good will.  

Soldiers are required to do their jobs when politicians fail to do theirs.


Exactly. (4.00 / 1)
Forget Warren; focus on the important and possible tasks. Primary the Blue Dogs - explicit or tacit. Join and Build the local party structures.

Bill Domhoff at UCSC is developing a plan for alliance of progressive, then liberal, interest groups with the intention of amalgamation - or, at least, concerted action. I bring it up, because he is a practicing sociologist - research and analysis and, now, recommendation.

Jeff Wegerson asks above about the Obama campaign organization. I'm surprised that an OpenLeft commenter would not know this, but the 'campaign' is trying to not only maintain, but to build the grassroots' participation. We had a discussion meeting at my house last Saturday as part of this process (a very small, local part, but that's the point).

By the way - did I mention that I'm running for president?


[ Parent ]
but if we had forgotten warren (0.00 / 0)
we never would have had this conversation, and your very good idea would never have come up. :)

let a 1000 flowers bloom :)


[ Parent ]
Bring back the Aids Ribbon or something similar (4.00 / 1)
Perhaps Red or Orange or Yellow knit hats like the ones Deaniacs wore in Iowa. That would be better because it's more visible, not overtly "aggressive" or disruptive and Warren has a positive image when it comes to AIDs.

Folks who support civil equality and human rights can wear the hats at the inauguration.  Folks across the country can wear them that day too.  

We'd need to do a huge PR campaign upfront to get the significance of the hats into the public consciousness before inauguration day.


A bunch of rainbow flags during the invocation would be easier. (4.00 / 3)
Because everyone already knows that symbol.

The point being "hey look, these are real people and they're right here in front of you, they're willing to stand up to you, now quit being a butthole."


[ Parent ]
Great point (0.00 / 0)
I was thinking hats because it will be January and probaby cold out.

How about hats and flags?  Or rainbow colored hats?  


[ Parent ]
"Wear it on your sleaves?" (4.00 / 1)
I think that a possibility would be to sew the rainbow on the sleeves and raising arms in unison at a pre-arranged moment might work.
 And I still like the "Don't tread on me" motto somewhere.  If the idea is making a larger movement, creating different symbols on the sleeves (Rainbows, the candle in barbed wire for "Amnesty International," scales of justice for prosecution of war crimes, etc.)  and a common logo on the chest might work out.

[ Parent ]
Rainbow flags are good (4.00 / 1)
but easy to confiscate. That's the advantage of a song -- they can't take it away from you.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
Wow. Do you really think they'll have the nerve to confiscate rainbow flags? (4.00 / 1)
I mean, I don't know anything about inaugurations.  Do they confiscate shit from people?  Anything that could be used to protest?  I guess they might.  

That's really grim, if true.


[ Parent ]
Maybe I am too cynical. (0.00 / 0)
I dunno. I guess we are fixing to find out, eh?

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
Its a matter of National Security (4.00 / 1)
They'd confiscate your asshole if they could.

"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
Not applicable to Rick Warren per se (4.00 / 4)
As I put on my MSM hat, the story on January 20 is only tangentially going to be Rick Warren, even with the best protest, and the "We Shall Overcome" thing sounds pretty cool. The story is going to be the historic day, with many old African Americans in the crowd who waited their whole lives for this, and the pageantry, and Obama's speech, which will be wonderful. The "We Shall Overcome" thing is a good way of saying that one civil rights story has come to an end, but one is still going on. I would try to think through what protest would be appropriate with the people who are protesting Prop 8 itself.

There is some lag time, but we have seen in the 1994 and 2006 elections that Congressional midterms are a way of imposing accountability when you can't vote against the President himself. So some of the strategies for Congress might work here, especially if there are enough Ned Lamont figures willing to come forward that Obama thinks the country is farther left than he gave them credit for.  

"Here's a song about blind faith. That's always a dangerous thing, whether it's in your girlfriend--or if it's in your government." Bruce Springsteen, quoted in Glory Days (Born in the USA tour??)  


Congrats for one of the best posts ever at Open Left, Chris (4.00 / 3)
However, many of the comments seem to miss the point.  We shouldn't look for a performative alternative to the dramaturgy of the inaugural ceremony, but a stronger, more financially viable roster of potential officeholders backed by grassroots political organizing.  

This is why I'm happier with each passing day that Rahm is in the White House now - house leadership has shifted and will be more responsive to pressure from the left.


The "Don't Tread On Me" (4.00 / 3)
Flag plays on a Collective historical memory, and counters the "Post-ideological" frame.
I don't think "Post-ideology" is as effective as many of the ideals that have gained traction in America's past and have a pre-existing "frame".
For liberals and progressives, sticking to issues that have a built in historical frame, rather than branding individuals as toxic personalities will be more effective, IMO.

I think that wearing shirts, hats, etc. with the coiled snake and motto is something that can gain popularity and create a movement for classical ideals and issues which liberals and progressives see the need to challenge.  Issues like equal marriage rights, personal privacy (FISA), combating an overwhelming military-industrial complex, strengthening oversight, etc.
I would ask that liberals and progressives don't declare a war on this administration, because being "PRO-issue" will not have the blow-back that being ANTI-personality could.  Try to change people, don't just fight them.  


3rd parties (4.00 / 2)
At the congressional level, I accept kos's premise that the only means of holding Democrats accountable for angering progressives are primary challenges (sitting on your hands or supporting third-party candidates just doesn't work).

You keep saying this, but I don't see any logical argument for this.  Sometimes it will work, sometimes it won't in individual cases.  It won't work in San Francisco and New York City (even without a fusion ticket) or Vermont ;)?  That's hard for me to believe.

On a broader level, an organized and effective and ideologically progressive national third party (one that doesn't exist today) is a perfectly reasonable alternative that complements, not replaces, the kinds of work that you're talking about.

The point, though, is to actually challenge people and threaten their seats and alter the discourse (and different people will prioritize different ones of these...the second I thihnk is where the maximum effect is from third parties in the American political system).  There will probably be seats where you mount a primary challenge and THEN support a 3rd party candidate when the progressive wing of American politics both within and without the Democratic Party feels strong enough to do so.   Why would you give up half your arsenal before the war even starts?


Listen to yourself (0.00 / 0)
The inauguration is, after all, a gigantic rally designed to accrue political capitol for the incoming President. With this in mind, perhaps the best option is to find some way to cause political trouble for Obama at the inauguration itself.

Your credibility is pulp.


what you should have is a same sex kissathon (4.00 / 1)
during his entire speech.  That would be cute and it would get the point across and hopefully it would freak him out.  And it would express positivity while expressing anger, rather than booing, though negativity has its usefulness too :)

A lot of people holding up protest signs with the name of a website (and that website should have information and also a way for people to donate money and get involved wtih lgbt and women's rights and anti-imperialist and whatever other opposing forces there are agains thte Christian right) would also be good.  

Obama has been  very clear that if you mount some political power he will be responsive to you; if you do not, he will not.  So where's the power behind the anti-warren effort?  The messiah doesn't deliver unless we demand it from him.


I like the potential optics of the kissathon (0.00 / 0)
but not all the opposition to Warren comes from same-sex couples, so this idea is somewhat limited in scale.


"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
well it's about time we asked for some real solidarity from straight allies (4.00 / 2)
:)

[ Parent ]
Yeah, the concept of Sympathy Make-Out (4.00 / 1)
is intriguing, I admit.  

"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
and actually (4.00 / 1)
any kind of kissathon would be good because the christian right is anti-sex and anti-love.  It's all about controlling bodies.

[ Parent ]
HHmmmm ... (0.00 / 0)
what you should have is a same sex kissathon

Lets face it .. for this to really work .. and get the attention .. you'll have to get models(or Playboy playmates) ... that type to do this ... because you are doing it to get noticed .. and that is what will get noticed


[ Parent ]
really? (4.00 / 2)
if 1% of the audience started making out in front of the cameras, that wouldn't get notice?  especially if they had press kits, stickers, and told the people next to them what they were doing before hand and why?

Mass numbers are more usfeul than celebrity and trying to find the most attractive people to do it for political purposes would run contrary to the spirit of love anyway :)


[ Parent ]
I suppose it depends on your objectives ... (0.00 / 0)
if your goal is just to make people around you aware .. then yes .. you are right ... if your goal is to get it on CNN and MSNBC .. and to make Wolf Blitzer and Sean Hannity's heads explode .. then attractive people are the way to go

[ Parent ]
Accountability for a President (4.00 / 4)
Obviously you aren't going to primary Obama, and picketing the White House won't do any good.

Instead, you need the Progressive Caucus in the House drawing a line in the sand on legislation, the way Blue Dogs often do, and saying to Obama that he has to agree to their progressive stance if he wants anything done. We've seen how much influence the Blue Dogs can get by acting like roadblocks, let's see Progressive do it and get some media attention in the process. Reforming NAFTA, repealing DOMA, reforming Don't Ask, repealing Bush's tax cuts for the rich might be a few good places to start.

And yes - primaries are the only way to teach Dems a lesson. We almost kicked out Lieberman this way, but he snaked his way back in by becoming an independent. If we had finished the job on Lieberman, there would be a bit more fear in the Democratic caucus.


why obviously? (0.00 / 0)
in fact, i think building the framework for a progressive challenger to Obama should probably start now.  Not the candidate, but the infrastructure, so that when incumbent obama, who, barring external circumstances, will be likely to win, he faces a serious progressive primary challenge - if we decide we want there to be one.

[ Parent ]
what if investment in political offices is wrong (4.00 / 1)
what is this all smoke.

could progressive do better by using their energy to form local societies. local business communities which try to do business within itself only. which don't hire outside. which don't buy outside. which live near each other. think like how hasidic jews build their communities. create networks that allow people to move to "progressive" centers. take over counties, secure jobs for people, take over the best resources.

maybe that sounds crazy. but so does trying to get a strong voice in washington within a pretty conservative country.

~* the * Will * to go on *~


it's also worth remembering (0.00 / 0)
that this is where leaders are built.  And are taught what leadership means, what power structures are, and what local communities actually deal with and how difficult it is for them.  

How many of Obama's organizers (to say nothing of Obama himself) had some experience like that?  I would wager a great many, based on the people I know.


[ Parent ]
Is there a such thing as an american progressive that isn't complete trash at marketing the movement? (4.00 / 1)
The fallout of making a scene at the inauguration isn't going to land on Obama, it will land on the gay rights movement. Why are you willing to expend political capital on a symbolic move rather then on Obama's governance? That makes zero sense to me.

The real question for handling the Obama admin is how to increase pressure on Obama to pass gay rights legislation, not how to end up being covered by the media as assholes because you don't like a popular preacher.

Going forward the question is how to make a legitimate progressive powerbase in the democratic party. I honestly can't answer that. I think the demographics of the democratic party make that very hard to accomplish. It's easier for centrist democrats to run insurgent campaigns than it is for leftist democrats. The gatekeepers of the left are interest groups. If you don't have access to unions, environmental groups, etc. then you don't have dick. The people that should be voting progressive are already dialed into these old groups. So there is no voting block up for grabs for progressives that aren't already party insiders, or already picking their own primary candidates.


throw shoes (0.00 / 0)
or perhaps set up a shoe-throwing "hit the homophobe" booth with Warren and Obama posed a la Bush and Maliki ...

Heh (0.00 / 0)
You will be snipped before you can throw anything. specially if you are close to the stage.

[ Parent ]
of course, but ... (4.00 / 1)
the symbolism was just too compelling - our guy kowtowing to an intruder from another culture, our politics held hostage by people whose power in this situation is humiliating and incomprehensible.  

[ Parent ]
I realize I'm late to the party on this, but... (4.00 / 1)
I'm wondering whether this is also not, potentially, good for progressives as well.  In the last few weeks you've referenced a story about how Clinton told Bernie Sanders that he should've raised a bigger stink in the 90s regarding (I think) the tax legislation, no?  So, now progressives are raising a stink about this, so maybe this actually gives more leeway for Obama to do something positive for progressives as well, like at least make sure that the federally-recognized civil unions gets pushed through, which would be major progress, in my opinion.

I know, it's sort of a weird circular argument... but I'm basing it off of what you've been arguing for the past several weeks that Democratic/liberal criticism of Obama is actually good for Obama because it will give him more room to actually do more liberal things.


Not a weird argument at all (0.00 / 0)
That's the main value of the radical wings (OK fringes if you must) on either end of the spectrum - to PUSH the envelop. The more radical the ideas and actions on the left, the further the "centrists" and "mainstream" Democrats can go and still appear to be "reasonable".

Of course, the "centrists" and "mainstream" Democrats have to be paying attention to the left and have the intention of moving left in order for this to work....

"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
right (0.00 / 0)
so i think a long term structural thought process about the political system in the u.s. needs to reevaluate all this stuff - the party system, senate, the electoral college, the amending procedure, perhaps scrap the constitution altogether and reenact a new one through a constitutional convention (as provided for in the constitution).

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