Are The Culture Wars MUCH Realer And Deeper Than Obama Realizes?

by: Paul Rosenberg

Sat Jan 03, 2009 at 16:00


Note: On Friday, Daniel introduced a fascinating perspective on morality, psychology and the politics of left and right, based on the work of Jonathan Haidt, which I've since followed up on a bit.  This is a first stab at making use of some of his insights.

I have long been deeply skeptical about some of Barack Obama's core political assumptions revolving around the culture wars-that they are a more or less symmetrical, irrational distraction from real, pragmatic problem-solving perpetrated by left as well as the right, which are rooted in the 60s and the Baby Boom generation, but have no real relevance to the problems of today.

Having lived through the entire period from the 1960s onward, it seems quite clear to me that the 1960s represented a fundamental rupture with the past, in which fundamental and pervasive institutionalized forms of prejudice-most notably against women, blacks and other racial minorities-were dramatically challenged, morally delegitimized, and largely dismantled.  In response to this, political conservatives organized a sustained backlash, and used it to attack not just the breakthrough advances of the 1960s, but a wide range of New Deal political advances and their extensions as well, which largely benefited the working class whites, and helped to create the modern middle class.  As such, there was never any sort of symmetry between the sides in the culture war, nor was there anything irrational in fighting against the politics of reaction.  Finally, given that the 1960s saw the fall of age-old structures of race and gender oppression, it was quite clear that culture wars didn't start in the 1960s, except in the terms of "bully logic"-"It all started when he hit me back!"

Paul Rosenberg :: Are The Culture Wars MUCH Realer And Deeper Than Obama Realizes?
These objections to Obama's ideology are well-known in the blogosphere, at least, if not always well-understood.  So, too, is another characteristic of his ideology touched on above-his belief that he, and others following in his spirit, can transcend the culture wars, and bring our country together, which he claims is what's necessary in order for us to solve today's problems and move ahead.

Of course, I and others have repeatedly pointed out that this is not how our most significant problems get solved. But I don't want to revisit that debate here, merely take note of it.  Rather, what I want to focus on is an unexpected contradiction that seems to emerge from the work of psychologist Jonathan Haidt.

You see, Haidt argues that morality is more broadly based than liberals commonly assume, and that conservatives acting in ways that liberals regard as immoral-opposing equality, for example-are actually acting based on a different morality, which has its own internal validity.  While this would appear to validate Obama's stance of reaching out to conservatives, but Haidt also argues that the underlying differences between liberal and conservative morality are quite substantially deeply rooted, and no mere passing phenomena of a bygone era.  He doesn't claim the differences are insurmountable, but he does see them as far more challenging and difficult to grapple with than Obama's feel-good optimism would seem to recognize.  If Haidt's understanding of moral differences between left and right are correct, culture war differences cannot simply be set aside to deal with "more important problems."  After all, our moral views are central to how we decide what's important in the first place.

Haidt describes moral concerns-based on studies of different cultures-as consisting of five different realms, which in turn reflect three different basic groupings.  In his paper "When Morality Opposes Justice: Conservatives Have Moral Intuitions that Liberals may not Recognize" [PDF], co-authored with Jesse Graham, he writes:

Richard Shweder (1990) has long argued that the individual-centered moralities of Kohlberg and Turiel reflect just one of three widespread moral "ethics," each based on a different ontological presupposition. In the "ethic of autonomy" the moral world is assumed to be made up exclusively of individual human beings, and the purpose of moral regulation is to "protect the zone of discretionary choice of 'individuals' and to promote the exercise of individual will in the pursuit of personal preferences" (Shweder et al., 1997, p.138).Rights, justice, fairness, and freedom are moral goods because they help to maximize the autonomy of individuals, and to protect individuals from harms perpetrated by authorities and by other individuals. The "ethic of community," in contrast, has a different ontological foundation. It sees the world not as a collection of individuals but as a collection of institutions, families, tribes, guilds or other groups. The purpose of moral regulation is to "protect the moral integrity of the various stations or roles that constitute a 'society' or a 'community,' where a 'society' or 'community' is conceived of as a corporate entity with an identity, standing, history, and reputation of its own" (Shweder et al., 1997, p.138) Key virtues in this ethic are duty, respect, loyalty, and interdependence2. Individuals  are office-holders in larger social structures which give individual lives meaning and purpose. Finally, the "ethic of divinity" is based on the ontological presupposition that God or gods exist, and that the moral world is composed of souls housed in bodies. (See Bloom, 2004, for evidence that this presupposition is the natural, default assumption of our species.) Each soul is a bit of God, or at least a gift from God, and so the purpose of moral regulation is to "protect the soul, the spirit, the spiritual aspects of the human agent and 'nature' from degradation" (Shweder et al., 1997, p. 138). If the body is a temple housing divinity within, then people should not be free to use their bodies in any way they please; rather, moral regulations should help people to control themselves and avoid sin and spiritual pollution in matters related to sexuality, food, and religious law more generally.

From Shweder's perspective it is clear that social justice is the ethic of autonomy writ large, but the two other ethics-community and divinity-are at work in most cultures and in many Western subcultures. Political conservatism is often defined by its strong valuation of institutions and its concern that ideologies of "liberation" often destroy the very structures that make society and well-being possible (Muller, 1997).

It is, to say the least, intellectually challenging, and non-trivial to contemplate how such fundamentally different sorts of ethics might be reconciled or harmonized.

Haidt also writes:

The five foundations theory offers a surprisingly simple explanation of the "culture war" going on in the United states, and in other democracies such as Israel (see Hunter, 1991, on the battle in many countries between the "orthodox" and the "progressivists"). The five foundations theory can also explain two puzzling features of the 2004 American presidential election. The first puzzle is that a plurality of Americans who voted for George Bush said in a well publicized but poorly designed exit poll that their main concern was "moral values." The second puzzle is that political liberals in the United States were shocked, outraged, and unable to understand how "moral values " drove people to vote for a man who, as they saw it, tricked America into an unwinnable war, cut taxes for the rich and benefits for the poor, and seemed to have a personal animosity toward mother nature. Our explanation of these two puzzles, and of the culture war in general, flows from this simple proposition: the morality of political liberals is built on the harm and fairness foundations, while the morality of political conservatives is built upon all five foundations.

I am not arguing that these differences can't be bridged, only that they can't be set aside and ignored, just because we'd like it better that way.  And this, to me, represents a fundamental misperception of reality on Obama's part.


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When theory confirms instinct (4.00 / 7)
I'm always a bit surprised when psychologists come up with a theoretical framework for what instinct and experience already teaches. Then again, I've read a lot more philosophy than psychology or sociology, and the vocabulary that psychologists in particular have developed often comes across to me as unnecessarily scientistic, as though they were overeager to prove that they weren't just noodling. It's a prejudice, I admit, but it's one honestly come by.

In Obama's case, my take would be that what makes him think -- or claim to think -- that he can square the circle, is his self-confidence. It's nice that he has it, but I do sometimes think that he has it only because his own path through life hasn't sufficiently tested it. If there's any legitimate justification for worrying that he lacks experience, this strikes me as being it.


I Agree (4.00 / 5)
I think he's had an easier path than he realizes, because of prices others have paid.  He knows this intellectually, but not in his gut.  Add to that, he's been able to negotiate challenging spaces that are far removed from the real frontlines--the campus versions of the culture wars!--without ever really getting that he was in the VR version.  A bit like Reagan "fighting" in WWII, I'm afraid.

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"

[ Parent ]
On the other hand, (4.00 / 3)
if anyone out there has the right stuff -- the intelligence, courage, and stamina -- to pass these tests when they do arise, events to this point would certainly suggest that Obama is the guy. And, as you say, the challenges he's already met and surmounted aren't exactly child's play.

[ Parent ]
On this I agree, if anyone of recent knowlegde (4.00 / 1)
has the political power,skill and determination to get it done, it is the soon to be inaugurated President.

But I also think, and many disagree, is that Obama wants to create a center/left coalition. That includes a portion of the center that aligns itself for the long term with the left. I think there have been mistakes in that, and some reaching out is downright appeasement, but I think the policy goals stated so far are damn fine and unexpected even 2 years ago. Is it my agenda? Is this what I would do? No, nor you, is it close? does it move us strongly in the right direction? So far.

Does any of this add to the discussion of psychological makeup or ethics discussion, nope.

Change
"We must break up the banks and never again let them get so big that they distort our politics and take down the economy.


[ Parent ]
Yes (0.00 / 0)
"I'm always a bit surprised when psychologists come up with a theoretical framework for what instinct and experience already teaches. "

I agree.  Wow, religion shapes conservatives' beliefs?  Who woulda thunk it?


[ Parent ]
Fairness vs Equality (4.00 / 5)
My subconscious association meant that I remembered the fairness category as equality, but rereading Haidt's work, it's not.  In fact, he notes:


Most traditional cultures, however, do not have highly developed notions of individual rights, nor do most cultures appear to value or seek to create equality among all adult members, or even among all adult male members. (See Boehm, 1999, on how rare egalitarian societies are, and on how hard people in such societies must work to suppress their natural proclivities toward hierarchy.) Fairness is an excellent candidate for a universal (though variably applied) value, but equality of outcome or status is not.

I'm thinking now that he has arrived at a definition of liberal morality that precludes concern for equality.  That's a problem.  It's no surprise conservatives would value "fairness" (defined more as reciprocity) but liberals have a very different notion of what "fairness" means, one that must include at least equality of opportunity and parity of outcome.

He seems to have rejected equality because few societies, particularly pre-industrial societies, embrace it.  But that seems to be premised on some sort of assumption that liberalism and conservativism are on equal footing.  I don't think they are, so it doesn't surprise me that more societies are conservative in nature.  

Liberalism takes a lot of education and work to have a fighting chance.  There's a reason the enlightenment is a big deal.  

Rather than seeing his aggregate scoring, I'd be interested in the results for this question from the test:


___I think it's morally wrong that rich children inherit a lot of money while poor children inherit nothing

Because I have the feeling that conservatives think this is "fair" while liberals think it is "unfair."  


The key word is earn (4.00 / 5)
Conservatives think that inheritance is justified because the parent earns the wealth which he passes on.

This sounds okay to a lot of people, but liberals would be quick to point out, I think, that No man is an island, entire of itself. Meaning that when we speak of earning something, what we leave out is the sense that the community in which this earning takes place is always party to it.

Maybe the guy who can design a bridge should be well-compensated, but he'd be out of luck without those who break their backs, and in some cases, risk their lives to build it. A liberal would say: Why should he walk away with the means to build one of those so-called cottages at Newport, and send his kids to Yale, while the high-steel men walk away with shit?


[ Parent ]
I Still Vividly Recall (4.00 / 1)
A brief interchange I had with one of the few visibly poor kids in my high school, who was shocked by my suggestion that inheritances should be sharply limited.  He certainly had no sense of enlightened self-interest going.  Totally brainwashed he was.

And yes, as I recall there was something faintly Southern about him.  Oklahoma, maybe Arkansas, I think.  Certainly not Deep South, but...

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
The South's view is mixed, I think (0.00 / 0)
My father was from the South, and his take was something like Warren Buffet's: You ain't getting a penny from me, kid -- you got to earn your own, just like I did. Well, to make a long story short, he was as good as his word, and I did just fine.

On the other hand, the gaffer wasn't one of those Southerners who had the means to sit on the veranda sipping mint-juleps and watching his slave-drivers at work. His origins were more of the Tennessee hillbilly type, and he was faar more interested in my character and manhood than he was in my privilege.


[ Parent ]
Oh, I'm Well Aware Of the Different Strains of Southern Thought (4.00 / 1)
It's just that at that time, I think that the Northern working poor had a lot more fighting spirit in them, and it was less surprising hearing such attitudes from a Southern kid, even though other Southern kids might have ridiculed him, in turn.

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"

[ Parent ]
I suspect you're right (0.00 / 0)
I do remember that the old man was also very anti-union, at least in the early days. He believed in self-reliance, and foolishly thought that his negotiations with an employer were a matter of honor. Needless to say, before he went back into the army for good, he pretty much had a terrible time of it.

[ Parent ]
Oh Yeah, Southern Honor (4.00 / 3)
deadlier than moonshine, and twice as likely to blind you.

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"

[ Parent ]
Something I have recently gleaned from (4.00 / 2)
Albion's Seed is the fascination that "Fortune" held over the minds of the cavaliers. It is the reason why they liked to gamble so much, because they needed to constantly gauge their fortune.

But it also fit with their stoic/fatalisitc worldview, and their hierarchical society. They believed gentlemen, like slaves, are who they are because God made them so, and the best course of action is to reconcile oneself to one's station in life and make the best of it.

So what I'm thinking now is, what if Conservatives (read cavaliers) don't believe in justice because they believe in fortune? What if the two ideas are, in a sense, incompatible?

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
Agreed (4.00 / 1)
But I'd go a bit farther.  I think they might be said to believe in justice, but in a limited sense proscribed by fortune--justice is getting what fortune intends.  Someone who tries to cheat fortune, rather than accept it, would be acting unjustly.

This is not to disagree with your point about their approaches being incompatible.  Rather, it adds a twist--that the core differences are (almost mockingly, perhaps) decoratively recapitulated in service of a completely different end.

Does that make sense, or am I just babbling, now?

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
No, this is what I think, too. (4.00 / 2)
I think we get in trouble across the cultural divide because we use the same words for different things.

In this case, if you and I are correct, the liberal meaning of "justice," roughly equal opportunity for all, is the direct opposite of conservative "justice," which is more like abiding by God's plan by staying in your foreordained place.

However it would explain how conservatives are able to say the Pledge of Allegiance without their heads exploding.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
And Liberty? (4.00 / 1)
is the freedom to do what you're told?

Am I getting the hang of this?

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
No, no -- I cracked that one, too. (4.00 / 1)
First of all, remember there is a comma after "Liberty." "With liberty (pause) and justice for all." The pause signifies another, new clause, in other words, "Liberty" is one thing, "Justice for all" another. It is only us liberals who run them together in our minds and think of "liberty for all."

So what is liberty, then? The key to that one can be found in an old fashioned, maybe semi-archaic expression, "to take liberties." Liberties are something that some people take, while others . . . well, you get the picture.

So when conservatives say the pledge they are saying they believe in the existence of liberty (the kind you can take), and also in justice for all, in the sense we already talked about.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
Would It Be Considered Cruel And Unusual Punishement (4.00 / 2)
to let them know the Pledge was written by a socialist?

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"

[ Parent ]
Earning (0.00 / 0)
Sure, the parent (maybe) earned what they have.  But the child sure didn't.

[ Parent ]
What I like to tell my wingnut friends (4.00 / 2)
when the subject comes up, is "Anna Nicole Smith is the only one who ever EARNED an inheritance, and my hat is off to her for that."

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
There's A LOT To Think About In This (4.00 / 2)
Evidence such as that in The Liberal Temper in Greek Politics as well as anthropological evidence cited by William Ury in Getting To Peace leads me to think that liberalism has a much longer pre-history, and that equality has a deeper roots than Haidt would seem to credit.

But this is a relatively minor concern to me at this point.  I'm just taking a few baby steps while I mull over the big stuff a bit slowly, I must admit.  For example, it just might be the case that equality is what you get as a value when you screen out the respect for heirarchical instutions as a culturally influencing factor.  That's just a purely off-the-top-of-my-head sort of speculation.

Ury argues that coercive hierarchies have had a long run since humans ran out of free space to migrate into, and that fundamental the logic of cooperation suffered substantially as a result, but that it's been making a gradual comeback since Guttenberg kicked off the information age 500 years ago.  I certainly think that information technology shifts toward decentralization have a tremendous liberalizing potential, and that our pre-historic, nomadic past may well have been much more liberal as well.  Which leaves us with interesting questions about how loyalty and purity in particular might take on very different complections.

This is what I hope to grope towards in the next few weeks--what possibilities might exist for articulating more liberal versions of those other realms, if we can do some appropriate social engineering, broadly parallel to the NAACP-LDEF's social engineering of the end of racism.

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
He wants the Purity issues to go away. (4.00 / 3)
While he clearly identifies most strongly with the traditional left moral bases of Harm and Fairness, he has also notably and publicly struggled with issues of Ingroup/Loyalty. In Authority terms, he is very rooted in a liberal framework, supporting the Constitutional ideas of a people-driven Democracy.  I see no indication that Obama fails to recognize signature of Authoritarian thought, and I might even argue that his embrace of Warren is specifically an acknowledgment of the power of this moral structure.  The pastor may have become a bit of a liability for now, but I'd be pretty certain Obama is aware of, and hopes to influence, the power of this kind of presence. As for the Purity pillar, clearly Obama was surprised by the reaction from the left re Warren, and this is perhaps because he wishes this is one area of moral disagreement that should become less the purview of the Federal Government.

It's a good point (0.00 / 0)
I'm less sanguine than you are, though. I'd feel a lot more hopeful if you were in the cabinet ;-)

[ Parent ]
I Don't Agree RE Purity (4.00 / 7)
Obamaphiles defend him by caricaturing the DFHs in terms of "purity," but that's a canard.  The issue isn't Obama's purity as a progressive.  It's his easy sacrifice of those he doesn't think he needs any more.  And this is just the latest example.

People aren't opposed to Obama talking to Warren--which would be a purity issue. They're opposed to giving him a position of honor and respect, when he dishonors and disrespects them and their friends and allies.

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
It's not about how we would characterize what we're doing, (0.00 / 0)
it's about how Obama sees it. You may be right that for him it was purely a pragmatic (God, how I've come to despise that word) decision to discard those who look like they might want to get in the way of what comes next in the program, but I also think that it's true that he believes in some sort of third way that takes one from column A and two from column B, and cobbles together a solution to a problem which isn't inherently amenable to ideologically-based solutions.

I think that he's as wrong about that as you do, and would also agree that he's not as stupid as some of his followers, but I don't think that Chasm is entirely wrong about why he doesn't like us as much as we think he should.


[ Parent ]
I Have No Idea How Obama Sees It (4.00 / 1)
Obama is a politician.  Everything he says must be judged accordingly.

I only know that that view is wildly mistaken, and intellectually indefensible.


"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
As far as the left's own purity pillar, (0.00 / 0)
that goes to the point that Mark Matson made last time; i.e. that institutions that conservatives prize uphold fairness that liberals prize. There is a Venn diagram-type overlap between the liberal-conservative polarities that a deft politician could certainly negotiate. It goes back to framing. Of course, the trickiest cultural moments, as Paul has pointed to, are the moments when there is no conceivable overlap between existant institutions and fairness. The Warren issue is, of course, such an issue.

[ Parent ]
But Again, This Isn't About Purity (4.00 / 1)
Purity would be "don't have anything to do with him."  That's not the issue here at all.  The issue is about giving him a position of honor and respect, when he has not shown honor and respect to others.

It's about reciprocity.

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
Reciprocity indeed... (0.00 / 0)
So what is Warren being rewarded for, given that it's likely the "fairness" of this choice is filtered through a pretty conservative lens?

Great post. Great comments as well. I'm still digesting some of this and I'll read Haidl's paper later, once I've finished Altemeyer's The Authoritarians.

If anyone is interested, it can be downloaded here:

http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~a...

Altemeyer basically argues that what we refer to as "conservatives" are easily identifiable as authoritarians, and Haidl seems to support that, without saying it directly. Altemeyer is the (or one of the) designers of the RWA test, which IDs one's authoritarian tendencies. Of course, Altemeyer's take on authoritarians seems to make any accommodation (without capitulation) rather impossible, given the inherent tendency for authoritarians to prefer conflict to compromise, even when conflict will be most costly for them.

As of now, I'm inclined to think Obama is either naive in trying to end the kulturenkampf by "bridging gaps," or is, in fact, an authoritarian who sympathizes with their views to a large extent and merely wants to mainstream those views to the point of broader socio-political acceptability (a la Clinton) through a phony moderation scheme. Given his rise to authority from Harvard and UChicago, I'm guessing he's either a Classical Liberal or perhaps even a Straussian Conservative.  Both seem equally plausible to me at this point.

Time will tell soon enough.

"In our country, the lie has become not just a moral category but a pillar of the State" -- Alexander Solzhenitsyn


[ Parent ]
Authoritarian leaders are, (4.00 / 2)
of course, a lost cause. But authoritarian followers are a different story. Wait till you get to the part about the world game, it's fascinating!

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
I've just gotten through the initial discussion of that (4.00 / 2)
I'm especially intrigued with the way the  high RWAs basically torched the place because it seemed the only thing to do, more or less. The Middle East game was most enlightening as well.

With respect to Obama's wish for a "unity government," which sounds rather eerily similar to a "National Government" in the UK, that strikes me as appeasing authoritarian leaders, with the hope that they'll deliver the followers as part of the deal.

But this strikes me as either naive or worse. The only way to accommodate them is to hand these authoritarian leaders "victory," which means sticking a shiv in the backs of about 52% of the electorate, no?


"In our country, the lie has become not just a moral category but a pillar of the State" -- Alexander Solzhenitsyn


[ Parent ]
The part about what happens when (4.00 / 2)
the RWAs are put in charge sounds so much like what we've just come through, doesn't it?

But what happens when the authoritarian followers are put in charge, with no leaders, is to me the most interesting. They are completely hapless, and do themselves in as well, only in a different way.

I too am disturbed by Obama's apparent instinct towards appeasing RWA leaders. If he really thinks that is the way to reach their followers he is in for a bumpy ride.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
Yes, You've Put Your Finger On It Exactly! (4.00 / 1)
Which is why we keep getting these secret plan theories, and other ways of explaining away what's right in front of our eyes.

And people telling us, "Oh, but you don't understand..."


"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
There you go with your fairness schtick again. n/t (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
Well, Fair To Middlin' Anyway (4.00 / 1)
[ Parent ]
Reciprocity (0.00 / 0)
is a tribal/loyalty issue, isn't it? So maybe it stands to reason that it would fall in Obama's blindspot.  

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
No, It's Justice (0.00 / 0)
or as Haidt himself calls it, "fairness/reciprocity".

The 5 realms are: harm/care, fairness/reciprocity, ingroup/loyalty, authority/respect, and purity/sanctity.

To me, this seems like part of a larger pattern where Obama loses his center, his apparent core values in trying to reach out to the other side.  Making me wonder if it really is the other side.

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
Fair enough. (4.00 / 1)
I am thinking of how things look from within a tribe. Not quite the same thing Haidt is talking about.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
Yes, Well (4.00 / 1)
it makes sense, I agree, and sort of sensed where you were coming from.  I'm going to have to read quite a bit more of his work and the sources to develop my own take on all this.

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"

[ Parent ]
Agreed (0.00 / 0)
Great points.

[ Parent ]
another view (4.00 / 2)
My career was as a psychiatrist and psychoanalyst - definitely more focused on individual psychology rather than groups. What I notice in myself is how hard it is to personally characterize the Conservative mindset in non-perjorative terms [and vica versa]. I can't write more than a few sentences on my own blog without using a synonym for selfish, or greedy, or narcissistic - even when I'm trying not to. Based on the workings of my own mind and my close friends, I think we liberals are no less contemptuous than the other guys. I'm now retired and live in a [beautiful] rural Georgia Community where the people aren't like the ones I was around in Academic Atlanta [McCain, 5:1]. But they're pretty wonderful people. They know [as do I] that we don't argue politics [maybe it's the Obama sign that's still in front of our cabin that gives them a hint].

The point of my post is that I agree that Obama is naive. I happen to like that in him. I've come to think that much of the problem in the culture wars is that the opponents don't know each other. The separation allows for a heightened sense of different-ness and oversimplified mutual mis-characterizations. My guess is that Obama's attempts to get us talking to each other and focusing on shared values rather than differences will have the desired effect - whether his notions are psychologically naive or not. It was a good enough stance to get him elected.

So I mildly disagree with, "I am not arguing that these differences can't be bridged, only that they can't be set aside and ignored, just because we'd like it better that way.  And this, to me, represents a fundamental misperception of reality on Obama's part." While I agree the differences can't be ignored, I would also say that in the last 28 years [since Reagan], we've heard nothing but contemptuous harangues about our differences. They're emblazoned on our souls. I hope Obama can get some decent milage out of reminding us of our shared humanity. And just maybe, he's not misperceiving reality at all, but has a creative idea about what to do about that reality...


Well, You See (4.00 / 2)
I've spent quite a lot of time painstakingly distinguishing between ordinary self-identified conservatives, and hardline conservative ideologues, movement conservatives and conservative political priorities. So I not only know this terrain, and these differences, I've been actively making others aware as well.

And because I've spent a good deal of time talking and thinking about this, I guess I sort of naturally notice it just as much when people are being simplistic in favor of "trying to build bridges" as I do when they are doing the opposite.

Close enough to get him elected?

Yes, well, that's one standard.  Why isn't that very comforting?  I just can't imagine! [chuckle!]

But, seriously, let me try to explain my POV.  I think the GOP has screwed up big time and there's not much love for them on any account.  That gives Obama a lot of running room to start with.  And he can probably accomplish a good deal with the opposition greatly hampered.  But that's no indication that he's actually going to accomplish what he thinks he is when talks about the culture war.  I'm sure it's true that just talking about getting along is going to make people generally happier than talking about fighting.

But that's a rather low standard from where I sit.  There was real angst-inducing confrontation during the Civil Rights Movement.  But from that came tremendous transformation.  That's my standard.

One last thing, getting back to the underying subject behind the diary:

Based on the workings of my own mind and my close friends, I think we liberals are no less contemptuous than the other guys.

I understand what you're saying, and even get that there's a sense in which it may be true.  But only a sense, not really when you take a closer look. First off, I know from conversations I've been part of for many years, there's a good deal of contempt for conservative ideas, for authoritarian followership, acceptance of bald-faced lies, etc.  But I haven't heard that much in the way of personal contempt.  I just haven't.  And that makes good sense in light of Haidt's work, since contempt and disgust are more associated with the three moral domains that conservatives value more highly than liberals do: ingroup/loyalty, authority/respect, and purity/sanctity.

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
... (0.00 / 0)
"There was real angst-inducing confrontation during the Civil Rights Movement.  But from that came tremendous transformation.  That's my standard."

There was a lot of "angst-inducing confrontation" here in the South. It was a time for a lot of us to feel very "right" in an absolute way. I enjoyed that, even though it was kind of terrifying at times. But what changed things wasn't the fight we put up [non-violent or not] back then. It was the co-mingling that followed - on the streets, in the schools, at work, in movie theaters and swimming pools. When I look back, I'm actually impressed with how far we've come, even though there are miles to go. But there weren't any minds changed on the picket lines or in the marches. The minds softened as a function of the human contact.

I take your point about the difference between personal contempt and contempt for the ideas, but only in terms of a statistical difference - not a digital one. There is definitely a skew as you describe. But there's little to do about the hopelessly rigid liberal-bashing conservative just as there wasn't much that could be done about the sicko racists in the 60's except to minimize their damage and wait them out. They're still around, but their ranks have definitely thinned.

I'm not arguing strongly against your point. I just doubt that Obama is that naive. I think he's plotting a strategy to win the "winnable," rather than fuel the monotonous contentiousness...


[ Parent ]
That's Sort Of My Point (4.00 / 2)
You don't make major change by getting everyone to agree to it beforehand.  You make major change, and then people live with it, and change as a result.  This is how it works.  Presidents who get broad support win elections 55-45 instead of 50.1-49.9.  They don't win 90-10.

If you wait for change until everyone agrees, you still have slavery.

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
I do find it fascinating that Obama's continually characterized (0.00 / 0)
as naive- Obambi- when there's so much evidence to suggest otherwise- his navigation of Chicago politics and of course his incredibly rapid rise.
     I tend to think of these "unity" moves as  quite cynical attempts to make a show for mostly the mushy middle. Rick Warren, after all, is someone who sold a hell of a lot of books based on fairly mainstream ideals, almost certainly to many people who are blissfully unaware of his more extreme stances. There are plenty of evangelicals who haven't written a best-selling, mainstream-oriented book, and Obama didn't go reaching out to them to prove a point of unity.
    But there's something in Obama's demeanor that keeps him read as perpetually naive, rather than cynical.  

[ Parent ]
The Entire Democratic Party Leadership (4.00 / 1)
For the past decade, at least has been naive.  They have all sorts of political experience under their belts, you can cite all sorts of experience in rough-and-tumble politics at every level, and yet, when push comes to shove they get played over and over and over again while teenage commentators at DKos cover their eyes and scream, "No! Don't split up in the haunted house!"

So, regarding the idea that Obama can't be naive, because, he's like, from Chicago, and he won the election.  I can only say, "Where have you been since 1998 or so?"

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
Well, who's doing all the emblazoning here? (4.00 / 3)
You seem to think the Kulturenkampf is a disagreement between two parties who are sufficiently like-minded that these differences can somehow be negotiated away through some accommodative process.

But if there's one thing that's clear about the authoritarian mindset, it's that compromise is simply out of the question. There's either victory or defeat in their mindset. Indeed, they often prefer open conflict to accommodation, even when they know their odds of success are really low (Altemeyer). This is something liberals would clearly view as irrational,  but for them it's a no-brainer.

I'm not saying this out of anger, or frustration, or anything of that nature. When one group sees the individual as something deserving of rights, whilst the other views the individual as a subject of that state without any inherent rights... well, that's some disagreement, isn't it?

The rightists complain about liberal intolerance. The media complains about liberal intolerance. Yet, it's not the liberals that have been in power these last 28 years and as far as I can tell, all the intolerance comes from the right. Sure, "the left" reacts to this in increasingly loud terms, but who's really generating the conflict here? Who is taking rights and liberties away from whom? Indeed, when a victim of racism points out the racism in others, why does anyone think pointing that out somehow constitutes an offense of intolerance? That's the kind of dynamic that's out there and I just can't accept that.

I don't like saying this any more than you do reading it, but authoritarians simply do not view the world, or life, in terms any liberal/progressive/etc would view as generally acceptable. There's a reason for it. We're polar opposites and accommodating the right means eviscerating every principle on which this country was allegedly founded.

If these authoritarians are willing to accept my humanity and all that goes with it (rights and such), then I'm more than willing to accept theirs (that bargain is very much emblazoned on my soul, as it were). The real problem here is they simply aren't willing to accept that.  

"In our country, the lie has become not just a moral category but a pillar of the State" -- Alexander Solzhenitsyn


[ Parent ]
Non-perjorative Term (Perhaps?) (4.00 / 1)
While I'm a total light-weight compared to you and Paul (and, frankly, most of the other commenters here), I've also given this difference a whole lot of thought and reached a conclusion or two.  

I thought Daniel's diary yesterday on Haidt's work was fascinating, but I left the table still hungry.  When I analyze any situation, I'm not content until I find what's at the absolute root of what's going on.  

Call it an unhealthy need to over-simplify, but to me, things like morality and greed or generosity are determined in a huge part by how secure one is within oneself.

Life is a scary place--always has been, and probably always will be.  In my (totally unscientific) experience, Americans can be divided into into two roughly equal in size groups determined by whether their members make their important decisions based on their fears, or regardless of their fears.  If thinking of it in terms of fear makes you uncomfortable, I think it also can be expressed in terms of the degree of one's ability to tolerate ambiguity (which I of course would argue is determined by how much one's decisions are determined by fear).

So my non-perjorative term for conservatives is "fear-based."  "Xenophobic" is another good term--not the "fear of foreigners" definition we learned in high school, but the true meaning of the word:  fear of the unknown or unfamiliar.

Our ownership class have long been aware of this characteristic and especially in the time since WWII have mastered the art of using it to control the country's agenda, starting with what was probably their most successful creation to date, the Cold War, and extending to their current creation, the War on Terror.  (Which, sadly, lives on in Mr. Obama despite the total repudiation of its most inept practitioner.)

I know it's all more complex than that.  There are acres of books and centuries of academic studies worth of ways of looking at this, but to me when all is said and done, it all boils back down to fear.

I've spent a big part of my life in one way or another as a mediator of sorts, and from what I know of Obama (dating back to his time in Chicago) he's anything but naive.  Healing division starts with getting the opposing parties to sit down to solve whatever practical problems can be dealt with immediately.  Obama knows as well as anyone--and better than most--that this is only the beginning of a lengthy process.  

As we all know, when disagreement reaches a certain point, we humans have this ugly tendency to "other" or dehumanize our opponents (the way I've seen "my darling James" devolve to "him" and then to "shithead").  Sitting down and solving practical problems together can be the beginning of unraveling that.  

Here in Bumblefudge, IL, the comments I heard from otherwise seemingly intelligent McCain supporters almost always began with something like "I don't know what it is, but there's something about that Obama guy that scares me."  Note how Obama is "that Obama guy", while McCain was just "McCain."  The Repugs very successfully "othered" Obama in the minds of the fear-based.  

blah, blah.  Enough.  

$0.02 (sorry about wrapping it in the $0.10 bag)

"Ignorance is the most dangerous element in any society." - Emma Goldman


[ Parent ]
Morality? (4.00 / 1)
The culture wars (odd conservative framing on that term) are about the role of government, more than morality.

If you ask me - or many other liberals - about abortion, I would tell you that it is generally immoral.  However, I believe it is simply impossible to regulate sexual behavior through the law and horribly counterproductive to force someone to be a parent, and I acknowledge that I cannot make that moral choice for someone else.  Similarly, I disapprove of most drug use, although I recognize the war on drugs is an abomination.

Many libertarian-leaning conservatives agree.

Many Democrats support civil unions, but not gay marriage, precisely on the same basis that conservatives cite: the value of maintaining an ancient institution.

In other words, in matters of personal conduct that make up most of what is called the "culture wars," the fundamental divergence isn't morality, but the role of government in enforcing morality.

Questions of social justice are moral questions.  But, if you ever debate these questions with conservatives, you will find they will, at least on the surface, accept the same moral frame as the liberal.  They will argue that, for example, affirmative action hurts minorities, or that welfare creates a culture of dependency.  They will express opposition to the taxes or regulations necessary to acheive equality, citing values of automony and individual rights, rather as liberals value automony and individual rights in the personal realm.  Again, the question is often the role of government, apart from the moral frame, for both the liberal and the conservative.

If you adopt "morality" as a defining characteristic, and argue that the primary difference in between conservatives and liberals is morality, then you have adopted the conservatives' frame, and arrive at the conservatives' conclusion, which is that the culture wars are virulent. If you reject that frame, you come to an entirely different conclusion.  


Autonomy Is A Moral Issue (4.00 / 2)
The culture wars (odd conservative framing on that term) are about the role of government, more than morality.

Historically, the core of modern liberalism, at least, is the dignity and moral autonomy of the individual.  So culture wars about the role of government vis-a-vis individual rights are equally much about morality as well.

I quite agree that both liberals and conservatives can misleadingly sound like one another at times.  This is one of the reasons it's helpful to seek out approaches such the one drawn on here, to help us poke beneath the surface of language.

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
Where will they go to learn? (0.00 / 0)
I just finished watching The Freedom Writers. It was touching when the African American, Cambodian and Latino kids visited the Holocaust Museum and learned to empathize with the white Jews, understood their common humanity and began to work together rather than shoot each other.

I guess I'm wondering where the Jews will go to understand that just because they have historically suffered they do not hold a license to eradicate every living Palestinian because of the accident of their birth...


Sorry (0.00 / 0)
I know it was off-topic, but I just wanted it asked.

[ Parent ]
Obama Is About Reducing Resistance (0.00 / 0)
"So, too, is another characteristic of his ideology touched on above-his belief that he, and others following in his spirit, can transcend the culture wars, and bring our country together, which he claims is what's necessary in order for us to solve today's problems and move ahead."

It is interesting - I think this blog correctly identifies Obama's point in that quote but doesn't get it.

The point is not that everyone will get into a circle, exchange hugs, and sing kumbaya together, it is to minimize resistance by respecting the intelligence, the patriotism, and the differing values (described in this post) of your opponents by acting as of their objections are in good faith and responding on the merits calmly, rationally, and in a friendly, persuasive manner.

That kind of tactic is doomed to fail with "professional" conservatives (who have no interest in governing well or having the government work), but Obama is gambling (with reason I think) that they matter less then "real" people out there who do hold conservative values in good faith and do care about the government working.

Now the underlying point of this post - that those differences are real and based on genuine differences in values is in no way incompatible with Obama's position (in fact, it is the REASON for his position).

If he can convince real people who are conservatives based on having conservative values that he respects them, listens to them and considers their ideas, even if he doesn't implement them it will reduce a LOT of resistance. It will be hard to paint him as a John Kerry-like alien.

If he's right, the culture war won't go away, but it's effectiveness as a method of blocking reform will fade.  


Well, This Is An Open Question (4.00 / 1)
You are arguing that Obama has a strategy for (at least partially) disarming opposition.  I am arguing that it seems like it's at least somewhat self-contradictory and counter-productive, for a number of different reasons.  This argument has been going on since before Open Left was founded.  I still remain totally unconvinced.  But I'm willing to entertain the notion that I'm missing something.

However, the argument you are presenting here is basically one I've heard countless times before.  It's going to take a new argument to change my mind.

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
Perhaps Obama's symmetry theory (0.00 / 0)
is also biologically based, after all he is half Kansan, half Kenyan.

His need to integrate his two halves are projected onto his policy.

But I agree that Obama is a bit of a romantic in that regard.

Race war has been a driver of human evolution for millions of years; exempla gratia recent evidence refutes that the Neanderthals were not merely out-competed economically. No, they were killed off.

If you are a Rousseauian romantic and simultaneously anti-race war, the 21st Century (with its robots, cyborgs, AI, and genetically enhanced humans) isn't for you.

Only through the expenditure of energy known as Civilization can we overawe our instincts, actually defy nature and preserve humanity in its current (albeit flawed) form; thus the Left is per force conservative now.


What I have found disconcerting, (0.00 / 0)
particularly about philosophy, although It was one of my majors, is it's disconnect to the more immediate human experience. Perhaps it is a personal tic but I submit that understanding humanity and the dynamics of belief and values must come from a more intimate experience, and ineffable cause.

I also note that within this discussion, however interesting, there is the distinct unacknowledged paradigm of patriarchal hegemony. That patriarchal power dominates the understanding of group's or individual's values, beliefs, and behavior. And that without the inclusion of feminist, or rather womanist, principles the current constructs of liberal or conservative are, at their core, the same. And further, will be unchangeable at depth. Because, if nothing changes, nothing changes. Thus, leaving this discussion and it's correlate living reality, more dusty then boring and intrinsically hopeless rather than fully solvable.  

I also submit that without the significant rise of influence and values of the feminine principle in culture, scio-economic, political, and religious institutions we as humans will gain little in terms of substantive maturity. Perhaps there is a path in which feminine principles, created out of women's experience, could weave understanding and coalesce divergent opinions about equality and morality.

My gut says not so much. Because, I am keenly aware of the deliberate de-feminization throughout the historical and current path of sociopolitical and religious constructs and values. (ex: Feminization isn't even my spell check) Patriarchy without the divine feminine necessitates: rigid rules without ingenious mercy, unremitting jockeying for position and power, emotional deconstruction, demonization of female sexuality and empathy, and the tolerance of blood lust. And that if, like Puten raising his head, feminist principles are argued the full weight of said patriarchal requisites are brought to bare against their inclusion into reality. See Hilary cries.

But then I, at times, and only co-incidentally, have thought putting men in cages and letting them out to carry heavy objects and lend spermatozoa for procreation to be a valid consideration. And, respectfully,  please don't tell me that women need men for intimacy and companionship. Look at the divorce rate and tell me how that is working out for everyone. But I digress.

Thank you for a thoughtful beginning to the discussion about Obama's naivete and the lack of his intimate knowledge of the 60's imperative. And his lite experience in personal suffering and street cred. Gen X'rs have always seemed to me to be trying too hard to get attention without a sense of boundaries or deeply held purpose. This seems to make them a little defensive in the face of dirty hippies visions of peace, love and rock 'n roll. Oops, I mean peace and building genuine new community.

I also appreciate the deconstruction of liberal vs conservative paradigms even though, as I have argued I have found them lacking in a fundamental way.

Blessings.

 


Obama Doing a "W?" (0.00 / 0)
Maybe Obama's not naïve, and he's been projecting this "uniter," across-the-aisle "bi-partisanship" face because he thought it'd help him get elected, and he's actually putting the (faux) conservatives to sleep so that once he's "the president," he's then going to drive us to the extreme left (the audacity of MY hope).

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