Northern Racism--Yes, I Know It Exists

by: Paul Rosenberg

Sun Jan 04, 2009 at 10:54


A house in Martinsville, Indiana, from The Politico, October 29, 2008:
Confederate battle flag, Obama yard sign

This is a followup on my recent writing about racism and the South (American Amnesia: The Cost of Accommodating The South).  For some reason anytime I write about racism and the South, some folks feel it necessary to remind one and all that there is racism in the North as well.  As if somehow we'd all been on Mars for the last thousand years.

Well, I've also written about racism in the North.   On the flip, I start off with my review of Sundown Towns: A Hidden Dimension of American Racism by James W. Loewen, a book about the history of all-white communities, overwhelmingly in the North.  Turns out, the picture above comes from a well-known sundown town itself.

Paul Rosenberg :: Northern Racism--Yes, I Know It Exists
Sundown Towns: New Light On The History of American Racism
By Paul Rosenberg, Senior Editor
In the first few decades after the Civil War, African Americans settled widely throughout the North and West. But as the Civil War Era commitment to civil rights faded, around 1890, a vast wave of ethnic cleansing drove them out of many, if not most, places--the vast majority of towns in Illinois, for example.  While they might be tolerated passing through, many towns had signs at their borders to make their message clear: don't be caught here after sundown.  Hence the name: "sundown towns."  

A few decades later, as suburbs started spreading across the land, the vast majority of them were all white--with the active support of the federal government.  While Southern segregation is a relatively well-known aspect of our history, James Loewen's new book, Sundown Towns: A Hidden Dimension of American Racism, is the first book on the subject, and every page holds a revelation.  While some sundown towns and suburbs have become integrated over the years, a surprising number remain all-white, even today, occasionally enforced with violence.

Loewen, best known as the author of Lies My Teacher Told Me, cast a broad net in this book, covering everything from the history of their origins, the sociology of their formation and maintenance, and  their effect on whites, blacks and the social system, to their present, future and possible elimination.  

A simple one-page chart gives a quick sense of how vast the phenomena is. It lists the number of counties in 39 non-southern states with no or few (less than 10) blacks in 1890 and 1930.  Of these, Loewen writes, "not one showed greater dispersion of African Americans in 1930 than in 1890. In 31 of 39 states, African Americans lived in a narrower range of counties in 1930 than they did in 1890."  This doesn't even count counties where all towns but one were sundown towns.

While many people recognize they live in an all-white, or nearly all-white town, virtually no one knows why.  Loewen first cites and debunks a number of popular, but nonsensical explanations, cold weather, for example.  As if there were no blacks in Chicago and Detroit.  He then presents a multi-level explanation of how they came about.  He starts with the late-19th Century white backlash, culminating in Nadir of race relations (roughly 1890 to 1940).  During the Nadir, he identifies three sociological factors that tended to produce sundown towns--political ideology, ethnic solidarity and labor strife. Finally, he examines triggering incidents and the roles of individuals.

When residents do have explanations for their sundown towns beyond the nonsensical, they generally take the form of origin myths, derived from triggering incidents that supposedly explain, and even justify the continued absence of African-Americans. But even on their own terms--ignoring all historical and sociological factors--these stories just don't add up. For instance, Loewen cites the example of Anna, IL, which expelled its entire black population after a black man allegedly murdered a white woman raised in Anna 30 miles away.  Anna is all-white to this day.

With this historical background, it is hardly surprising to learn that school integration prompted a later wave of expulsions--often in the South, which had formerly relied on the proximity of blacks to perform difficult, low-status, low-paid work.  Indeed, the entire history of American race relations is profoundly altered in light of the history of sundown towns.  Much that we take for granted--the concentration of blacks into inner cities, for example--simply cannot be understood apart from the creation of sundown towns and suburbs. Residential segregation--creating separate enclaves of privilege and privation--is the bedrock of everything separating the races in America today.  Without understanding how it was created we cannot understand how it can be undone.

I'm sure that makes all the Southern apologists feel much better.  But it shouldn't.  It does absolutely nothing to excuse Southern racism, and the fact that Southern apologists would use it that way is further indicative of their unwillingness to change, their unwillingness to take responsibility for their own actions.

But let's recall how this issue came up most recently.  It was touched off by a remark I made in a diary about an article by Michael Lind, after the Southern-based GOP effort to torpedo America's domestic auto industry.  The article talked about the need to Americanize the South by nationalizing labor, consumer and environmental standards, so as to eliminate benefits from that the South's traditional "race to the bottom" strategy, which has been eroding Northern industry for over 100 years.  Lind's point was about the need to raise everyone up, in order to counter the South's divisive strategy of dragging everyone down.  And yet, the diary discussion virtually ignore that in order to focus on a throwaway line I wrote about hating the South's political tradition--not its people.

Those who hate progress, who hate treating all people equally, will grasp at any straw to avoid what they most detest.  And the sad thing is, their antics have come to define our political discourse, so that many more people, even genuine progressives, have come to reflexively echo some of their most ludicrous knee-jerk responses, making excuses for lack of progress when they should be expressing outrage.

Now, about that photo.  It ran with almost no commet:

A house in Martinsville, Indiana, via my colleague Marty Kady.

Another reminder of how complicated this race stuff is.

But there was a lot more comment in the comments.  Like this, for example:

Spare me the Yankee platitudes. Look: for all the stigma the flag has in some parts of the country, there are Southerners who are proud of their ancestors who died fighting for what they thought was right. Many honor their heritage with the flag. And that doesn't mean they can't vote for a black man who is the best candidate to address the problems this country has. Recognizing that the flag can be something other than a sign of hate is one of the first steps the Democrats can make towards getting the votes of a constituency that could be very loyal. Stereotyping and intolerance is NOT helpful. I'm writing this as a Sons of Confederate Veterans member, and a loyal liberal Democrat. There are elected officials who are critical to the Democratic Party who agree with what I'm saying-- Jim Webb, for example. Slavery was a blight on the South, and was possibly the most important factor in the war. But it wasn't the only issue. And the wrong reasons for the war don't detract from the sacrifice and suffering Southerners, most of whom did not own slaves, felt during and after the war. I'd love to talk to the guy who owns the house above. He's exactly the kind of voter we need to win the presidency and to make an Obama administration a success.

Posted By: DG | October 29, 2008 at 10:56 AM

This is a typical example of neo-Confederate apologia designed for mainstream consumption.  In fact, it's got so many classic elements, it's almost like a parody for those familiar with it.

There's the bit where Southern traitors are turned into heros:

Spare me the Yankee platitudes. Look: for all the stigma the flag has in some parts of the country, there are Southerners who are proud of their ancestors who died fighting for what they thought was right. Many honor their heritage with the flag.

Which is indentical in form to the following:

Spare me the Jewish platitudes. Look: for all the stigma the swastika has in some parts of the world, there are Germans who are proud of their ancestors who died fighting for what they thought was right. Many honor their heritage with the swastika.

Funny, isn't it, how we hear the former all the time, but the latter, not so much?

And that doesn't mean they can't vote for a black man who is the best candidate to address the problems this country has. Recognizing that the flag can be something other than a sign of hate is one of the first steps the Democrats can make towards getting the votes of a constituency that could be very loyal.

But, of course, this puts everything 100% ass-backwards, a time-honored Southern tradition.  It's the neo-Confederates who insist that the flag has only one meaning.  That it's about "heritage, not hate".  They're the ones telling blacks to "get over it" as they promote the treasonous Confederate flag as a public symbol throuhgout the South.  With very few exceptions, blacks and progressive whites focus their objections to the Confederate flag on such public uses, uses that force it's acceptance on others who know what it's historical meaning actual was, and remains--as a symbol of slavery and treason.  For the most part--certainly as far as any organized political efforts go--blacks and progressive whites have focused their energies regarding the Confederate flag around getting rid of it as a public symbol forced on people who see it differently than the neo-Confederates.  The single-mindedness, and insistence on others surrendering their point of view is virtually all on the neo-Confederate side.

We are always told that these folks could be "loyal voters" "if only".  Who can resist the promise of "loyal voters"?  Why, what red-blooded politician wouldn't readily give up all their principles (both of them!) for the promise of loyal voters?

Ah, but here's the thing.  In 1988, Jesse Jackson won the Michigan Democratic Caucus.  55%.  Twenty years after George Wallace won it, Jesse Jackson won it, too.  And his version of reconciliation and bringing the races together was the Rainbow Coalition, which was about bringing people together around justice and equality.  There was no neo-Confederate pandering within a country mile of his campaign.  But there was cartoon I remember, came out after the Michigan vote: A pickup truck with a gun rack, and two bumperstickers on it: "Wallace '68" and "Jackson '88".

So much for needing to kiss white neo-Confederate ass in search of their votes.

Stereotyping and intolerance is NOT helpful. I'm writing this as a Sons of Confederate Veterans member, and a loyal liberal Democrat.

Don't you just love it when celebrators of the fight to preserve slavery lecture you about the evils of intolerance?  Everybody needs a good laugh.

An SCV member who's "a loyal liberal Democrat"?  Make that two laughs.

Slavery was a blight on the South, and was possibly the most important factor in the war. But it wasn't the only issue.

This was the whole point of the white supremacist vision promoted after the Civil War--to change the subject away from slavery.  And here it is, still with us.  The flat out denial of most basic truth.  The only sense in which the above is true ("But it wasn't the only issue") is that there was also the little bit about how the South seceeded, and started fighting the North. It only became a war when the North started fighting back. So, in that technical sense, the claim is true.

And the wrong reasons for the war don't detract from the sacrifice and suffering Southerners, most of whom did not own slaves, felt during and after the war.

You know, lots of folks sacrificed and suffered during WWI and WWII, but there is nothing remotely  similar in the way of a cult celebrating them.  That's because their cause was not despicable, and in need of constant cleansing.  The fact that so many poor whites went out and got themselves killed defending the interests of slaveowners who despised them is but another reminder of how twisted the Southern political culture is and always has been.  There is nothing particularly noble about being a fool.  

I'd love to talk to the guy who owns the house above. He's exactly the kind of voter we need to win the presidency and to make an Obama administration a success.

Obama won the election by 9.5 million votes.  There are not 9.5 million Confederate flag flyers who voted for him. Not anywhere close.  That's why the picture was published, doofus--because it was so exceptional--not because it was common.

Another commentator was a good deal more blunt:

A treasonous flag?? It's always been about States rights and individual liberty and self-determinism vs. federalism and that is the battle flag of the free and brave.

Ah yes!  The freedom to own slaves!  The most basic right of all!

A few other commentators did have a more realistic view of things, though:

I'm from Indiana and Martinsville is regarded as the most racist city in the state. They use to call a very popular high school basketball coach in my town racial slurs in the locker room. That's a pretty big deal.

Posted By: myra | October 29, 2008 at 11:29 AM

She's not alone:

I lived just down the road in Bloomington for seven years, and Martinsville had a near race riot at a basketball game against Bloomington. The game was suspended when the Martinsville crowd began throwing things and yelling racial epithets, and the school was banned from high school athletics for several years. Martinsville is most definitely a racist hotbed.

Posted By: Steve | October 29, 2008 at 11:51 AM

And:

I agree that this may be a picture of contrived irony. A Confederate flag in Indiana may have no more significance than membership in the Nascar Nation - which itself is hardly Obama's core constituency. But any Obama sign in Martinsville is a striking statement of some kind. Confederate flag does not necessarily mean KKK; however, Martinsville counts many Klan members (both open and closeted) among its citizens to this day. Interesting, to say the least.

Posted By: B.A. | October 29, 2008 at 11:02 AM

In fact, Martinsville is a classic sundown town.  From Wikipedia:

Demographics

As of the census[1] of 2000, there were 11,698 people, 4,621 households, and 3,086 families residing in the city. The population density was 2,620.6 people per square mile (1,012.7/km²). There were 4,880 housing units at an average density of 1,093.2/sq mi (422.5/km²). The racial makeup of the city was remarkably homogeneous, with 98.62% of Martinsville's residents claiming White ethnicity, 0.27% were Native American, 0.18% claimed Asian ancestry, 0.04% Pacific Islander, 0.25% from other races, and 0.56% from two or more races. Hispanic or Latino and African American residents comprised less than one percent of the population.

Finally, there's the man who wrote the book on it.  From History News Network:

James Loewen: Article on HNN stirs up hornet's nest in Indiana

Source: Mike Leonard in the Herald Times (Indiana) (7-11-06)

With the announcement that Honda would build a major automobile manufacturing plant near Greensburg, national attention was focused on the southern Indiana town.

Nearly all of it was positive. A reporter for "All Things Considered" on National Public Radio even said Greensburg "could be a movie set for an ideal American small town." Honda labeled the Decatur County seat an "outstanding community of people."

Sociologist James W. Loewen would edit that statement slightly. Writing on a Web site called the History News Network, Loewen cited the examples above and wrote that Greensburg would more accurately be described as an "outstanding community of white people."

Loewen is the author of "Sundown Towns: A Hidden Dimension of American Racism." And he includes Greensburg among at least 100 Indiana cities or towns he'd call a confirmed sundown town.

Loewen defines a sundown town as a community of more than 1,000 people that has historically excluded blacks to the extent that less than 0.1 percent of the population is African-American. The term comes from the real or apocryphal ordinances or signs that supposedly warned blacks not to let the sun go down on them inside the city limits.
Loewen is an Illinois native who taught sociology at the University of Vermont until he wrote the book that is believed to be the best-selling book by any living sociologist: "Lies My Teacher Told Me: Everything Your High School History Textbook Got Wrong." He now lives in Washington, D.C., and writes books.

He began his research on his native state and was stunned at what he found.

"I expected to find about 10 sundown towns in Illinois and maybe as many as 50. To my astonishment, I documented 472 sundown towns in Illinois alone," he said on Monday.

Loewen has not completed his count on Indiana sundown towns, but shared his working list of suspected and confirmed municipalities.

Bloomfield, Dugger, Mooresville, Oolitic, Orleans, Paoli, Spencer and Worthington are among the towns near Bloomington to make the list.

"Martinsville obviously is the one Indiana town that stands out when anyone talks about racism in Indiana," he said. The sociologist hastened to add, however, that just because a town is a sundown town, it doesn't mean that everyone who was born there or lives there is racist....

So, yes.  Racism lives in the North as well as the South.  And it's got a lot to do with keepng white working class people down, voting against their own economic self-interest, North as well as South.  This is where this whole conversation got started, remember?  


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Dave Neiwert posted extensively on this. (4.00 / 1)
You should go to his blog and tip your hat towards him, metaphorically speaking.  

Just goes to show (0.00 / 0)
"race" doesn't necessarily outweigh class in American politics.  

Obama would never have won without the support of white racists.


What surprised me about this (4.00 / 1)
was the number of people for whom race seemed to be a factor in there decision, but not a dispositive one. Just anecdotally, I heard a lot of voters saying something like: "Well, his race is a concern, but I also like what he has to say about a middle class tax cut" or some variation thereon.

I had always assumed that to the extent race would factor into this election, it would operate as a deal breaker, either consciously (the out and proud racists) or subconsciously (people who don't think of themselves as racists, but somehow can't bring themselves to vote for a black guy, so they invent excuses - "He's not experienced," etc.). Turns out that for some people, Obama's race was a "flaw," but a relatively minor one. Weird.


[ Parent ]
Imagine (4.00 / 3)
for a moment that Jesse Jackson had been the candidate. I suspect that we'd have discovered that race was indeed still dispositive. The thing about Obama is that his race can be accepted as incidental by whites whose racism is not a central fact in their identity. In part this is just because of who he is, and in part it's because he managed to turn his particular form of African heritage into a political tool of great inspirational power. I suspect that appealing to the guilty conscience of white racists in a way that didn't threaten them was part of that power, but it was not a power available to a black candidate who was a traditional civil rights leader.

We should be glad that Obama brought us a bit further down the road, but until any black man or woman in this country can do what he did without a second thought from whites, we haven't reached the end of it.


[ Parent ]
He won with the support of a huge cross section of all Americans. (4.00 / 2)
That some people can see past the racist lies to vote for their own well being is a stake in the heart to those ideas. Nothing happens overnight, but there are points along the path when you can see the road you are on.  

--

The government has a defect: it's potentially democratic. Corporations have no defect: they're pure tyrannies. -Chomsky


[ Parent ]
Yes, but you are forgetting that there was also racism in the North. (4.00 / 2)
[ducks & runs] ;)

Of course racism is everywhere (0.00 / 0)
As someone who has lived the majority of his life in the South (even while harboring a profound distaste for much of Southern culture), I see racism daily, whether blatant, subtle or merely implied. And yes, there is, and always has been, plenty of racism to go around in the North as well. I am particularly disturbed by those who seem to feel that racism has been eradicated in one fell swoop with the election of a black President.

That said, however, I also feel that too often racism is labeled as the predominant motivation behind some action or issue when it isn't. I do not believe the attempts of Southern politicians to undermine the domestic auto industry (based in the North) is racially motivated - certainly not as the dominant or primary motivation. I think there are any number of motivations for their efforts, but I simply don't see any race issues at work there.


Although Racism is also a disease that saps the soul and destroys monds. (4.00 / 2)
It is at its base an outgrowth of greed and arrogance. Racism is fomented and promoted and noursihed in the south to promote the kind of business model that Paul points to.

The article talked about the need to Americanize the South by nationalizing labor, consumer and environmental standards, so as to eliminate benefits from that the South's traditional "race to the bottom" strategy, which has been eroding Northern industry for over 100 years.  Lind's point was about the need to raise everyone up, in order to counter the South's divisive strategy of dragging everyone down.  And yet, the diary discussion virtually ignore that in order to focus on a throwaway line I wrote about hating the South's political tradition--not its people.

Fantastic article that Paul Rosenberg has written. So does race figure in the destruction of the working conditions of America? Yes oh surely yes, but is it chicken or egg? I guess that is determined by whether you are voting against your own interests by voting for the race baiters and reducing your wage, or being firehosed while protesting.

--

The government has a defect: it's potentially democratic. Corporations have no defect: they're pure tyrannies. -Chomsky


[ Parent ]
When The Mountain Is Made Of Stone (4.00 / 2)
the house on top can be made of anything.

It is still a house built on stone.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
And that is where we part ways (0.00 / 0)
Because if I read you correctly, you feel that that stone is racism, whereas I think it is something else. But still, I respect your opinion and always find you a good read.

[ Parent ]
Racism Has Never Been Separable From A Whole Lot Of Other Things (4.00 / 2)
So, no, I don't just mean racism.  Slavery was economic in its foundations, for example.  Racism helped justify the most ruthless way of attaining economic ends.  But then all sorts of other things got involved.  So I don't mean to deny any of it.  I mean the whole historical mass.

So, when things seem primarily economic, as they do today, that doesn't erase the fact that they're built on an historical/institutional/cultural/economic foundation that depended on slavery, and subsequent forms of racially exploitative labor relations.

Single word descriptor don't do justice to any of this history, which is why I resort to metaphors.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Point well taken (0.00 / 0)
and agreed.

[ Parent ]
I think I see what you're saying (4.00 / 3)
If I understand you then, I can see now that, in the Southern Senators vs. the American auto industry example, on the surface it betrays a desire to bring down organized labor and drag down pay & benefits to blue-collar workers, but that this is also an outgrowth of a long tradition and culture of exploitation going back to the exploitation of slavery for free labor, hence the racism aspect. Am I getting any closer?

[ Parent ]
Yup! (4.00 / 1)
Now You're poppin!

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Just the same old "Lost Cause" bullshit (4.00 / 6)
The simple fact is this: the Confederate states not only practiced slavery, they revolted against the government and started the bloodiest war in American history by far in order to preserve their right to buy and sell human beings. In other words, as Atrios puts it: Treason in defense of slavery.

How anyone could look at that and see anything to celebrate is beyond me. "There are Southerners who are proud of their ancestors who died fighting for what they thought was right." Doubtless the same is true for many Germans, proud of their ancestors who died fighting for what they thought was right. If they decided to "honor their heritage" by flying a swastika, what would you say?

And before anyone accuses me of the reductio ad Nazism fallacy, keep in mind that it is only a fallacy if the people you're talking about are not actually on a par with the Nazis.  


Well, essentially (4.00 / 5)
the glorification of the Confederate flag, no matter what region of the country, is a giant "fuck you" from mostly rural low income rednecks to the rest of the country. Part of it is an underlying resentment toward minorities they see being more successful than they are, part of it is knee-jerk "football loyalty" as I sometimes call it, and part of it is generally just being insular multi-phobic assholes who hate anything they cannot identify with. At least that's my take.

[ Parent ]
I think that's right (4.00 / 4)
Just as some people embrace neo-Nazi skinhead culture not out of a preexisting allegiance to the ideology of white supremacy, but rather an intense, unfocused anger and resentment. For them, wearing a t-shirt with a swastika on  it or whatever is sort of the ultimate fuck-you to the world.  

[ Parent ]
Exactly. (4.00 / 4)
Whatever else it means, the Confederate flag always means "fuck you."

What's weird though is recently I saw a Mexican dude wearing a Confederate flag hat. That's either clueless, or deeply subversive. I'm holding out hope for the latter.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
Wow as unforgiving and harsh and necessary an article as should be written. (4.00 / 2)
Racism needs confrontation, apologists may not apologize without rebuke, culture is a discussion and resolution comes from open discussion, not from denial.

It is sad that you have to admit that your dad and mom, your friends, are saddled with hate, but forward movement is impossible without your admission and action. My mother, who was wonderful and progressive woman who fought the John Birch Society tooth and pamphlet, was also, because, she said, of WW II, capable of saying racist things. I was 13 or 14 before I realized it was a contradiction of almost everything she stood for, and confronted her on it. She was silent in response. It was days before she apologized. I don't know if she ever got over her deep trouble, but she never used the words again.

I don't care where your words come from, or your excuses come from, stop it.

This next is one of the most powerful parts of your prying apart of the intricate self serving memes that support the complex system of "The Southern Racist Feudal Power System" that excludes everyone in it from the forces of progress, and holds (held?) the entire country in its centuries old grip.

YAnd the wrong reasons for the war don't detract from the sacrifice and suffering Southerners, most of whom did not own slaves, felt during and after the war.

---You know, lots of folks sacrificed and suffered during WWI and WWII, but there is nothing remotely  similar in the way of a cult celebrating them.

That Obama may have put the stake in the heart of TSRFPS (bubba-ism) is surely one of the great achievements of the American Experiment. I am sure that the founders who built the compromises to keep the colonies united never dreamt it would take so long for them to be erased, but it has.

Not to drift too far away from Mr. Rosenberg's point, but the long lasting effects of appeasement to racists that the founders created, should be a warning to those fighting prejudice now, Rick Warren to Rush Limbaugh to the pictured RNC Chairman candidate 'Chip' Saltsman.  

--

The government has a defect: it's potentially democratic. Corporations have no defect: they're pure tyrannies. -Chomsky


While it's certainly true that (0.00 / 0)
unregenerate racists continue to exist in the United States, and represent a real problem, isn't the election of a black man as President of the United States, by a good majority, and his current "approval" ratings, which are in the 70-80 per cent range, pretty good evidence that the hard core racism of the past is not a part of the dominant culture in the United States.

One can, of course, define down racism so that the term is extended to cover certain attitudes toward AAs -- as was done by a recent Stanford study. But it is not this weak, apparently largely inconsequential kind of "racism" that one is thinking of when one uses the toxic label of "racist". If one chooses an AA over a white man to perform a basic job of importance in one's life, one that clearly involves skills and competences of the highest order, and does so in the complete privacy of a polling booth, isn't that by itself pretty compelling evidence that, whatever negative attitudes toward AAs one might harbor, they don't have any kind of important effect on how one would treat AAs in, for example, employment situations?

Liberals/progressives seem to want to insist that racism is alive and well and every bit as pernicious in America as decades before -- but isn't that claim on its face false? Isn't Obama's election real evidence of the opposite?

Indeed, one of the things I think many liberals/progressives don't seem to grasp is that there are likely to be some serious unintended consequences to Obama's election. In particular, I see it fueling a new, and quite compelling to the public, argument against Affirmative Action. Affirmative Action will now be declared obsolete and unnecessary by the Republicans. The American public, in the election of Obama, has shown that it has moved well on from any previous racism in circumstances of hiring a firing. If the American public truly took the color of one's skin into account when making decisions about who is competent to handle difficult jobs, they would never have voted for Obama in such numbers.

And the progressive response to this is going to be pretty weak, at least from the public's point of view. What are they going to say? That the true economic power resides in the minority of people who did not vote for Obama, and that those who didn't vote for Obama are essentially all racists? That even if one votes for Obama, one is still very likely to be quite prejudiced in one's decisions about whom to hire for jobs in one's own firm? How plausible will those arguments be, given that Obama, again, was chosen, of one's own free will, and in complete privacy, for arguably the most demanding job in the world?

Now progressives can certainly put together legitimate arguments for Affirmative Action that get around these objections. But I very much doubt that in the minds of the public, they will get very much resonance. From the standpoint of the public, the point of Affirmative Action insofar as it is legitimate, is to correct for unequal and prejudiced treatment in the workplace and elsewhere. Obama's election will be strong evidence to them that whatever remaining prejudice exists in prospective employers and others in position of authority is relatively minor, and quite able to be overcome. They will believe that the onus is therefore on AAs themselves to improve their own lot, and further complaints about being kept down are "whining".

I certainly see Republicans pushing this argument long and hard when Affirmative Action comes up again, as it surely will.

Still again we will learn the truth of the maxim: be careful what you wish for.  


Oops (0.00 / 0)
sorry for the double post.

I was still in the midst of trying to revise this post when somehow I pressed the wrong button and it not only got posted prematurely, but twice.


[ Parent ]
While it's certainly true that (0.00 / 0)
unregenerate racists continue to exist in the United States, and represent a real problem, isn't the election of a black man as President of the United States, by a good majority, and his current "approval" ratings, which are in the 70-80 per cent range, pretty good evidence that the hard core racism of the past is not a part of the dominant culture in the United States.

One can, of course, define down racism so that the term is extended to cover certain attitudes toward AAs -- as was done by a recent Stanford study. But it is not this weak, apparently largely inconsequential kind of "racism" that one is thinking of when one uses the toxic label of "racist". If one chooses an AA over a white man to perform a basic job of importance in one's life, one that clearly involves skills and competences of the highest order, and does so in the complete privacy of a polling booth, isn't that by itself pretty compelling evidence that, whatever negative attitudes toward AAs one might harbor, they don't have any kind of important effect on how one would treat AAs in, for example, employment situations?

Liberals/progressives seem to want to insist that racism is alive and well and every bit as pernicious in America as decades before -- but isn't that claim on its face false? Isn't Obama's election real evidence of the opposite?

Indeed, one of the things I think many liberals/progressives don't seem to grasp is that there are likely to be some serious unintended consequences to Obama's election. In particular, I see it fueling a new, and quite compelling to the public, argument against Affirmative Action. Affirmative Action will now be declared obsolete and unnecessary by the Republicans. The American public, in the election of Obama, has shown that it has moved well on from any previous racism in circumstances of hiring a firing. If the American public truly took the color of one's skin into account when making decisions about who is competent to handle difficult jobs, they would never have voted for Obama in such numbers.

And the progressive response to this is going to be pretty weak, at least from the public's point of view. What are they going to say? That the true economic power resides in the minority of people who did not vote for Obama, and that those who didn't vote for Obama are essentially all racists? That even if one votes for Obama, one is still very likely to be quite prejudiced in one's decisions about whom to hire for jobs in one's own firm? How plausible will those arguments be, given that Obama, again, was chosen, of one's own free will, and in complete privacy, for arguably the most demanding job in the world?

Now progressives can certainly put together legitimate arguments for Affirmative Action that get around these objections. But I very much doubt that in the minds of the public, they will get very much resonance. From the standpoint of the public, the point of Affirmative Action insofar as it is legitimate, is to correct for unequal and prejudiced treatment in the workplace and elsewhere. Obama's election will be strong evidence to them that whatever remaining prejudice exists in prospective employers and others in position of authority is relatively minor, and quite able to be overcome. They will believe that the onus is therefore on AAs themselves to improve their own lot, and further complaints about being kept down are "whining".

I certainly see Republicans pushing this argument long and hard when Affirmative Action comes up again, as it surely will.

Still again we will learn the truth of the maxim: be careful what you wish for.  


Ugh, here we go (4.00 / 4)
As I posted above, it really irks me when people try to suggest that the election of a black President means racism has been all but eradicated. Nothing could be farther from the truth.

A racist will hire a black man to fix his car if it suits his purposes. So, too, will he vote for a black President to do a job for him if it suits his immediate interests. True, in the past, conservative racists have consistently refused to accept such a figure even if it meant their own economic/whatever disadvantage. I think people are particularly desperate right now, however. But that certainly does not mean they have given up their racism out of any noble change of heart.


[ Parent ]
You can hate the (4.00 / 1)
argument all you want, but in the minds of most of the public, it will resonate very well.

Look, the fact is that Obama was not just a mechanic being hired -- he was elected for, again, arguably the most challenging job in the world. Indeed, he was so elected when he had demonstrably far less experience than his white opponent, or than others who have reached that stage in the past.

And your implicit assumption that people only chose him because they were "desperate", while still harboring a very real and consequential prejudice against AAs, is nothing you can in any real way defend. You would seem to believe it only because you want to believe it. Why not believe instead that, except in rare cases, those who voted for Obama did so because whatever prejudice they may have against AAs is of relatively little consequence when it comes to major decisions about to whom they will entrust important responsibilities?

In any case, I certainly don't see the public buying your argument. They are not going to believe accounts that attribute a deep and important racism in the sizable majority of Americans who voted for Obama. Whatever one might do to "demonstrate" that such racism still exists in those voters is going to pale against the fact of their choice in the voting booth -- a real, consequential, and private choice.


[ Parent ]
You assume too much (4.00 / 4)
The core of my argument is that the election of a black President does not mean that racism in the US has finally been put to rest. Look, out of the entire US population, the number who voted for Obama constitutes a very small percentage. Attributing their acceptance of Obama to the entire country is likewise indefensible.

While I do believe that there were a considerable number of voters who held their noses over their racial feelings to vote for Obama for their own personal economic interests, I do not intend to suggest that those people were a majority, or even a sizable minority of Obama voters. But saying, as you have that "those who voted for Obama did so because whatever prejudice they may have against AAs is of relatively little consequence when it comes to major decisions about to whom they will entrust important responsibilities? " does not in any way conflict with my argument or analogy. The prejudices still exist, even in many who voted for Obama. So declaring racism dead is, to my mind, a terribly false conclusion.


[ Parent ]
You continue to fail to get my point. (0.00 / 0)
The point is not that many Obama voters don't harbor some attitudes toward AAs that might be regarded as negative. It's that those attitudes wouldn't appear to be consequential in the areas of public policy in which Affirmative Action is most concerned, such as in employment.

We all have attitudes towards all sorts of groups of people that are negative and unfair. If, however, when push comes to shove, and we need to make important decisions regarding individuals in these groups with regard to issues that have an impact on them, and which relate to public policy, we simply don't let those attitudes interfere, of what consequence are those attitudes to public policy?

And I'm certainly not declaring that "racism is dead". I started out my first comment by making the observation that certainly unregenerate racists still exist in our society.

But what's clearly not true, I think, is that they have anything like the pervasive and pernicious impact on society that many progressives want to claim, and that Obama's election is good evidence of that.

I hear that you don't want any unintended consequences to Obama's election. Sorry that that can't be arranged.


[ Parent ]
If you're talking strictly about Obama voters (4.00 / 4)
then you are largely correct. If you are talking about the nation as a whole, I don't see it.

Either way I do not see the election of Obama as the bellweather of racial acceptance that many seem to be arguing. Significant? Absolutely. Game-changing in terms of race relations in the US? Not really.


[ Parent ]
And just one further point (0.00 / 0)
a major issue with regard to Affirmative Action is: how does an employer make decisions regarding whom to hire? Is it based on a fair assessment of abilities and skills, or on prejudice?

Is it really plausible to believe that those in charge of hiring who voted for Obama will systematically downgrade the prospects of an AA just because he/she is an AA? If they hired Obama just because they "desperately" wanted the better person for the job, why wouldn't they be equally concerned to hire the better person for a job in their own firm, which would likely impact them in a very real way as well?

Again, the point is not that some Obama voters may not harbor some negative attitudes toward AAs. It's that, whatever they may be, they do not appear to be consequential when it comes to matters related to public policy such as employment (or, I should say, this will be the Republican argument).


[ Parent ]
well. . . (4.00 / 2)
having seen up close how hiring decisions are made by my own employer (a large corporation), I would say that is not an argument you want to make. In fact, there are no minorities in the office I work in at all, and the few there are in other nearby regional offices are predominantly in lower level positions.

[ Parent ]
As an undergrad at Berkeley, I read the real-estate covenants (4.00 / 2)
for the town of Berkeley which until, IIRC, 1956 segregated the town racially. And I know how shocking that was to many   white students in that architectural history class, even though the traces of those boundaries are very legible in the town today. This kind of stuff should be taught to children in elementary school during Black History Month, instead of the self-congratulatory stuff that I learned growing up in suburban Maryland in the 1980's. At the very least, it should be taught to high school students.
    I am wary of making the South into a national id and glibly glossing over wider, all-too-recent culpability, but of course Paul is far too subtle for that.

Does anyone else… (0.00 / 0)
...feel there was no need to call the guy a "doofus"? To me, Paul has offered up this powerful analysis, the Confederate son is trying to explain his personal position with civility, and we come back at him with the kind of nastiness that assuredly shuts down dialogue. And where race is concerned, dialogue is certainly what's needed.

On being lectured about intolerance: I kinda feel a "yikes!" coupled with a civil-liberties pang when thinking about the photo. That Confederate flag is not on some municipal building, it's on some random guy's house. Sure, I think there's a short-circuit somewhere, but the Obama sign actually makes me wanna talk to him, to get inside his head and see what's going on.


"This ain't for the underground. This here is for the sun." -Saul Williams


Okay, MR. Doofus (4.00 / 2)
the Confederate son is trying to explain his personal position with civility

Please go back and read my diary, "American Amnesia: The Cost of Accommodating The South", paying particular attention to how the White Supremacist tradition of interpreting the Civil War came to dominate the Reconciliationist tradition.

We've seen this brand of snake oil before, and no, I don't want to let the nice young man with the satchel full of samples in to sit a spell.

On being lectured about intolerance: I kinda feel a "yikes!" coupled with a civil-liberties pang when thinking about the photo. That Confederate flag is not on some municipal building, it's on some random guy's house. Sure, I think there's a short-circuit somewhere, but the Obama sign actually makes me wanna talk to him, to get inside his head and see what's going on.

Actually, if you read my piece carefully, you'll see that I never said anything about whoever put up the sign and the flag.  For all we know it's two different people.  An All In The Family sort of situation.  What we do know is the sort of stuff that I talk about, things that people actually said, the actual history of Sundown Towns, and Martinsville's status as a locally well-known example of one.

How boring and reality-based of me!

I must be a real doofus.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Whoops! (0.00 / 0)
...shoulda said that the photo makes me wanna know what's going on there, like when I would see these adjoining houses in Pennsylvania (did a little volunteering) with Obama and McCain signs side by side. Still think "doofus" was out of line, because intellectual authority and moral superiority is powerful enough without nastiness. If we take the guy at his word, he's a liberal, though I really wonder what that means to him.

"This ain't for the underground. This here is for the sun." -Saul Williams

[ Parent ]
I'm usually a free-speech absolutist (4.00 / 2)
But I do wonder whether it wouldn't have been wise for the U.S. in the aftermath of the Civil War to do what the Germans ended up doing after WWII - namely, putting strict limits on advocacy for the Confederate clause, banning the use of Confederate symbols, prohibiting Confederate political parties or their successors, etc.

This seems extreme and I'm not necessarily saying it should have been done, but I can see the argument for it. Instead of nipping the Confederate resurgence in the bud, as Germany seems to have managed to do with neo-Nazism (to some extent), we basically allowed the Confederacy to continue on as a political force to be reckoned with for another century. The Confederates didn't get what they really wanted, i.e. independence and slavery, but they did get the ability to continue to subjugate blacks without much interference from the "Yankees." Imagine if, after the Holocaust, the German government stopped killing Jews and putting them in concentration camps, but still refused to grant them full citizenship on a par with non-Jewish Germans. This is essentially what happened in the South after Reconstruction was over.  


A More "American" Approach (4.00 / 2)
would have simply to take away the voting rights of anyone who made war against the US.  Considering that they were guilty of treason, that's a pretty mild punishment.  There's clearly no complicated Constitutional issues or philosophical ones that I can see.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Point taken about Nazism… (0.00 / 0)
...but does it work here?

The Confederates didn't get what they really wanted, i.e. independence and slavery, but they did get the ability to continue to subjugate blacks without much interference from the "Yankees."

Unless I'm misreading the whole Sundown Towns analysis, a good bit of the reason Yankees didn't interfere was that their societies were also segregated, i.e., they were subjugating blacks, too. And that had little or nothing to do with the "political force" of the Confederacy.

"This ain't for the underground. This here is for the sun." -Saul Williams


[ Parent ]
Not Exactly (0.00 / 0)
Sundown towns were initially created at the same time that the White Supremacy vision of the Civil War was coming to dominate the Reconciliationist vision.

I'm not aware of any specific research into the connections between these two, but I imagine there must be at least one or two history PhD candidates looking into it, even as we speak.

Loewen does establish that Democratic-leaning towns were far more likely to become sundown towns than Republican-leaning ones.  And clearly Northern Democrats had more sympathy for Southern Democrats than Republicans did.  So, you do the math.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Trying to understand the impeachment of Andrew Johnson better (0.00 / 0)
The small 1973 book by Michael Les Benedict, "The Impeachment and Trial of Andrew Johnson," delves into the makeup of the Congress who took affront when Johnson went off on his own to reinstate Rebels in all the Southern states. He certainly upset many Senators and Representatives who were in opposition. In the end, "seven Republican senators joined the Democrats to defeat Johnson's removal."

Economic factors had played a role as well, as Benedict writes: "the man who would replace Johnson if he were removed was Benjamin F. Wade, a radical Republican with close connections with the soft-money, high-tariff Iron and Steel Association."

So there were multiple considerations beyond racial justice being deliberated and balanced.  


[ Parent ]
What math? (0.00 / 0)
???

"This ain't for the underground. This here is for the sun." -Saul Williams

[ Parent ]
I saw this (can't remember where), but I think it is appropo. (0.00 / 0)
"It all started when you hit me back."  


What the war wrought (0.00 / 0)
It's quite interesting in a way, that at the start of the war many northerners were fighting for a different reason than southerners.  The primary issue was keeping the country together (unionism) although most northerners were against the spread of slavery, I would guess that most were unwilling in 1861 to go to war to end slavery.

Very strangely, in 1861 Robert E. Lee was certainly far more opposed to slavery personally than William T. Sherman or (probably) Ulysses S. Grant (whose wife was a slave owner).  Lee thought he was fighting for Virginia, not slavery.

Many southerners had strong reservations about the war based on class rather than slavery ("A rich man's war and a poor man's fight.")  What they were fighting for really was home.  Lee's Army of Northern Virginia stayed intact untill Sherman's marches through Georgia and the Carolinas when many thousands deserted so they could go home to protectr their families.

As the war went on, somebody like Sherman changed from a guy who hated abolitionists and liked southerners to someone who seriously protected the sizeable number of blacks who were an important adjunct of his army (he sent the cavalry back to Tennessee and invaded Georgia and the Carolinas using a mix of blacks and his troops known as Bummers who supplied the army and screened it from any confederate guerilla attacks) and the man who rewarded these allies with the famous 40 acres and a mule and was ready to bring his army to DC to enforce the land grants (as well as his generous surrender terms for Johnston's army).

In Virginia, it was the black troops within the US Army who were by far the most reliable when it came to assaulting entrenched Confederate lines after Cold Harbor.

How Martinsville fits into this is, well intersting.  The political record of the borderlands showed similar voting records in southern Indiana to those across the Ohio in northern Kentucky.  I don't know if it is still true but 30 years ago the people in southern Indiana spoke with a bit of a southern twang and seemed at least mildly southern more than 100 years after the Civil War.  Kentucky, after all, stayed in the Union as did Indiana and Indiana was a hot bed of anti-war feeling.

As for the more recent residents of Martinville, the only one I've heard of was John Wooden who played high school basketball there in the 1920s and who is certainly no racist.  


Unionism was essentially an economic issue, though, right?, (0.00 / 0)
not a romanticization of wholeness or some such. The North depended upon cheap agriculture from the South. The economic motivations were on both sides fairly primary, I would think. So I'm not sure it's fair to say that the motivations of either side were all that terribly different. As you say, "rich man's war, poor man's fight."

[ Parent ]
Wholeness (4.00 / 1)
I've taken college courses on the Civil War, read lots of books, and read lots of diaries and biographies and I can't say that I remember anybody from the time period actually holding the economic view, or at least stating it.  Union meant union.  As the phrase goes, before the war the standard phrasing was "the Unied States are"; after the war it was "the United States is."  People like Sherman would not fight for slavery or economics but they'd darned sure fight for unity.

Economics may have been playing below the surface but the switch in political power opened up a whole generation of northern political wants to a normal political process.

The South was losing the battle for population and hence political control. Un 1800, slave states comprised 46% of the neccessary electoral college votes to elect a President. By 1860 it was 39%.  There was desperation among the political elite of the south.  No more Virginians (Washington, Jefferson, Madison, Monroe, Tyler) or Tennesseeans (Jackson, Polk) were being elected.  And the balance suddenly shifted from friends of the South like Pierce and Buchanan to Lincoln.

I don't believe that a lot of southerners were fighting for slavery although a lot of the political leaders were.  The war really changed things and the goals and methods became more ruthless as it went on.  Arlington National Cemetery is located on Lee's estate and the Union general who was arranging the burials placed the bodies as close to Lee's house as possible to make sure he could not come back.  


[ Parent ]
Sherman had served in the South pre-war and was in Louisiana in 1860 (0.00 / 0)
He had no love for either slavery or negroes, as he felt they would not be capable of fighting. But he knew Southerners well enough to predict that real victory would depend on smothering the South. He wrote several times about "repopulating" it with non-slave-owning Northern citizens. (Part of his bark being worse than his bite, I think!)

Sherman and Grant had the Ohioans' antipathy to slavery, but were not abolitionists per se. However, they recognized economic reasons for fighting. Think of their repeated struggles to take Vicksburg. They knew the need to keep the river open the entire way to the sea so that Northern commerce would not be bottled up by the Confederacy.


[ Parent ]
Sundown Town (FWIW) (0.00 / 0)
My mother grew up in the Sundown Town of Paxton, IL, about 30 miles north of Champaign-Urbana.  The most recent data available still show Paxton with a .38% black population (17.195 people out of a total population of 4525).  

The "sundown" signs came down sometime between 1980 and now, but as recently as 1980 a newly appointed black director of the county USDA office was advised by his superiors in the Department of Agriculture not to try to live in Paxton, but rather to buy a house in Rantoul, about 10 minutes to the south and located in Champaign County.

The percentage of Champaign County residents who are black is 11.17%, while in Ford County (of which Paxton is the county seat) it's .58%.  In Rantoul, 17.32% of the population is black.

Back in the 1960s(?) when the Illinois legislature passed legislation creating and empowering municipal Human Relations Commissions, the newly-appointed commissioners from around the state met here in Champaign at the University of Illinois for an orientation meeting and to get to know each other.  The meeting kicked off with a welcome speech by a much beloved Dean (who shall remain nameless, but there's a building named after him) who greeted the new commissioner with these words:

Here at the University of Illinois, we've not really had any problems with human relations.  Mostly, they come down from Chicago and keep to themselves and don't cause any trouble.
 
Honest.

"Ignorance is the most dangerous element in any society." - Emma Goldman

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