Being Pro-Israel, When Israel Itself Is Not

by: Paul Rosenberg

Tue Jan 06, 2009 at 15:30


Say you're on a bowling team called "The Ducks," and one of your friends on the team has a drinking problem.  Call him "Joe."  If Joe asks you to buy him a drink, and you do, does that make you "pro-Joe"?  And "pro-Duck"?  And if you don't buy him a drink, does that make you "anti-Joe"?  Does it make you "a self-hating Duck"?

Those are the questions I have to ask when I see how routinely people seem to misconstrue what I'm saying when I criticize Israel's self-destructive policies against the Palestinian people which have gone on for decades now, leading only deeper into dead ends, denial and despair.

Just to make things perfectly clear, I'd like to call attention to the positions of J Street, the newly formed organization that describes itself as "the political arm of the pro-Israel, pro-peace movement." J Street has a section on its website, devoted to FAQs on the recent violence in Gaza.  The answers they provide there are, I think, far more rational, positive, and objectively pro-Israel than anything you will here from the chest-thumping crowd.

Although I might express myself somewhat differently, and come at some things from a different angle, there is not one thing in J Streets FAQ that I read that I would hesitate to defend.  They do an excellent job of demonstrating what a real pro-Israel position looks like.  I'd like to underscore a few highlights on the flip.

Paul Rosenberg :: Being Pro-Israel, When Israel Itself Is Not
First, let's look at the question, Was Israel justified in attacking Hamas?.

Remember what I said: "Although I might express myself somewhat differently, and come at some things from a different angle, there is not one thing in J Streets FAQ that I read that I would hesitate to defend."  This is certaintly true in this case. My natural response is not to express myself as J Street does here, but there is nothing it says that I wouldn't defend:

Israel has the right and obligation to defend its citizens from short and long-term threats, such as rocket attacks - including taking military action designed to address the specific threat.

The more relevant question is whether Israel's attack on Hamas will accomplish its security goals. Retaliation is inevitable, though we don't know how far the violence will spread or how many more Israelis and Palestinians will die and suffer in the days and weeks to come. We think escalating the conflict will prove counter-productive and only deepen the cycle of violence in the region. This attack will deepen animosity between the Palestinian and Israeli people. It will further damage the international standing of both Israel and the United States. It will ignite further anger across the Middle East, further challenging the governments of allied Arab regimes. All of this damages long-term prospects for peace and stability for Israel and the region.

This is all so obvious that it shouldn't need to be stated.  But obviously it does need to be stated, because that's the essence of the problem here: people have grown so incensed, so consumed in the cycle of violence and revenge that they've lost touch with the most basic truths.  Of course a country has the right to defend it's people.  But of course thinking only of this right, and nothing else, will lead only to disaster, and will not actually defend anyone at all, but only further endanger them.

"The only true security, the only lasting security is common security," that is how I would put it.  And that's perfectly consistent with what J Street is saying here.

The next question is a good deal more comlicated: Are Israel's goals in attacking Hamas militarily achievable?. J Street's answer begins:

The most clearly articulated Israeli goal is to stop the rocket attacks on southern Israel. Other goals likely include weakening Palestinian support for Hamas, restoring Israel's deterrent power and destroying Hamas altogether. While a measured military response was always an option, the degree of escalation currently being pursued will almost inevitably prove counterproductive in achieving these goals

It then goes into a detailed discussion that could easily consumer a whole series of diaries to delve into.  But the bottom line argument here is clear: there is very little reason to think that any of these goals are militarily acheivable.  This is just like the neocon response to 9/11: doing more and more of the wrong thing is not going to acheive your goals.

Next is a guestion that's vitally important, because it highlights the sorts of opportunities that the dominant discourse has blinded us to:

"What could Israel have done instead?".  Here is what J Street says:

Israel could have spent the 4-5 months of calm under the June ceasefire [the ceasefire was 6 months but began to unravel in November, even so throughout the six months there were no Israeli casualties] working, with international support, to deepen the ceasefire. Of course Israel had to plan to defend itself and build its military and was rightly concerned that Hamas was strengthening its own capacity. One important component of the June deal was that Israel would ease the blockade on Gaza. This, however, never happened, and the humanitarian situation in Gaza was allowed to deteriorate. Had Israel eased the blockade, it would have created deeper incentives for Hamas and the Palestinian people to renew the ceasefire, giving civilians in Gaza a tangible sense that they had more to lose in a military confrontation.

Israel would have benefited from encouraging more effective mediation channels to Hamas through others, like Turkey and Qatar, instead of relying exclusively on Egypt. Similarly, Israel could have sought greater external pressure from Egypt and the United States to stop weapons from entering Gaza, particularly through the tunnels, while simultaneously improving defense systems and shelters in the south. More regularly opening crossings into and out of the Strip would have decreased the tunnel phenomenon, which currently benefits and strengthens Hamas and hurts civilians the most.

At the same time, Israel could have been working to improve conditions on the ground in the West Bank, including halting settlement expansion and easing check point restrictions on Palestinian freedom of movement. These steps would have shown the Palestinian people the benefits of working for peaceful change through diplomacy.

How is this anything else but another expression of simple common sense?  How is this "self-hating?"  How is it even "ideological"?  This is what pragmatism looks like, folks!

There's much more contained in J Street's FAQs on Gaza, and much else on their website besides that as well.  If one wants to find a different way, a more productive way to deal with resolving the decades-long Israeli-Palestinian conflict, it can be done.  It's not rocket science.  But you have to want to do it.

Yes, it's difficult making peace with your enemies.  But the kicker is, they're the only ones you can make peace with.  And making peace with them--making them, eventually, over time, into friends--is the only reliable way there is, or ever has been, to destroy enemies.

Don't buy Joe that drink.  He will thank you, some day.  The sooner you say "no" to him, the sooner that day will come.


Tags: , , , , , (All Tags)
Print Friendly View Send As Email
incompatible? (4.00 / 3)
great diary, Paul. As many friends as I have and people that I see on TV that say it, I still see no inherent incompatibility in supporting the rights of all people living in Israel or Palestine. Blaming the other guy by saying "they did it to us first" (like the Israeli government has been doing for the last several weeks) doesn't make your actions OK, and neither does using high flung rhetoric about how everyone is a terrorist and we won't tolerate it(like the White House has been doing for the same period of time - well, much longer, actually).

i guess we disagree (0.00 / 0)
With that said, how you express things is often indicative of how you are positioning yourself politically and is the product of many conflicting voices, not one, to state the obvious, so I understand what J-Street is doing and in an American context, maybe it's useful to make these kinds of compromises for some other ostensibly good end.  But to take the statement literally, they are tacking in a particular direction.  I agree with you that it's a pro-Israel, long-term and smarter direction, but I'm surprised that you would state that you defend every single thing in it, even if you say that you would express things differently or come at them from a different "angle."  Below is an example of what I mean:

"Was Israel justified in attacking Hamas?

Israel has the right and obligation to defend its citizens from short and long-term threats, such as rocket attacks - including taking military action designed to address the specific threat.

The more relevant question is whether Israel's attack on Hamas will accomplish its security goals."

1) Did the Israeli state attack Hamas by having a blockade of Gaza and eventually through air strikes and an invasion?  No, it attacked Gaza and its population,  with the stated aim of attacking Hamas.

2) Is the more relevant question for someone outside the Israeli state really whether Israel's attacks will accomplish its security goals?  This is surely a highly tense time and J-Street is a pro-Israel group, but imo the answer to this question for progressives should be "No."   The Israeli state/society's security goals are their business - as an person, the really  important question to me is not whether the Israel is being effective, but whether my or your worldview justifies an attack by the Israeli state on the people of Gaza with the stated aim of fighting Hamas, regardless of what Israel's aims are, at this time, and in this  way?  

I wil let other people decide what balance of pragmatism and morality they want to use - but eliding the question altogether in favor of making Israel's security aims the central issue of concern is not great.  A far better thing would simply be to say "No, the Israeli state was not justified in doing this, even though we understand the reasons why Israeli citizens might sympathize with their state" or "There is a broad range of opinion on this; some of this think it was justified, some of us do not."


So, Coalition Building Not A Big Thing With You? (4.00 / 1)
Sigh!

Maybe if we can create 10,000 different positions, instead of just 100, we could really be effective!

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
no of course it is (4.00 / 1)
i'm just outside this coalition (and generally any dc-esque coalitions).  Because who's we?  I mean, did you disagree with what I said, or do you have other reasons for embracing this fully (you don't have to state them - I'm just curious)?  

J Street had a political process to come up wtih a statement, and this is what it resulted in.  That doesn't change my opinions about the war or cause me to not state what I think is false in the statement, especially when you say you agree with it in its entirety.  That's why I like being an individual who works with others, and not, if possible, a member of a "side" or a "coalition."--at least on issues that are not my own.  The second I have to give up my autonomy to speak is the second I lose my ability to make any sort of positive change for myself or outside.


[ Parent ]
But You're Reading More Into The Statement Than Is There (4.00 / 1)
You are reading in differences that don't have to be there.

That was the point of my comment.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Coalition building is the proper name for this (4.00 / 5)
Coalitions can't be built upon the lies people tell to justify their own actions, but they can be built upon facts, and on what must be done to alter those facts so that a lasting peace can be made.

For example, my reading of history tells me that Israel has no right to exist; the U.N. was mistaken in engineering the partition, and in sanctioning the creation of a state on Palestinian land with a permanent and irrevocable Jewish majority. Israel was wrong to hold the land by force when the mandate was contested, and to expel its Arab inhabitants when Israel's army defeated those who rejected their right to rule over Palestinian land.

That said, Israel does exist, and if peace is what you want, you can't demand, as Palestinian exiles do, that Israel be uncreated, and that the Jews of Israel sent somewhere else. To do so can only mean war, a war in which -- so far -- Israel has held the upper hand.

You also can't demand, as Israelis do, that everyone accept as natural and just that what was once the majority population of all of Palestine be squeezed into a corner of their own land, and to be caged there -- blockaded, harassed, vilified, and forced to watch their enemies create facts on the ground by seizing more and more land for their own people. There is no peace ever to be had with anyone treated in this fashion. Your only choice, ultimately, is to kill them all, or to so reduce their numbers that, like native Americans or aboriginal Australians, they can never threaten you politically, economically, or militarily. Even if such a policy succeeds, it can't be called peace. It can only be called annihilation, as Tacitus called it so many centuries ago.

If peace rather than victory is genuinely what's wanted, one must negotiate in good faith, fully aware that both parties' needs, if not their desires, must be fulfilled at the end of negotiations. In my opinion, neither party to this conflict has yet done this. Each still thinks that a lasting victory can at some point be achieved. As long as they continue to believe that, peace will be impossible, and the horrors we've all witnessed this past week will continue for as long Israel exists.


True, But What Nation DOES Have A Right To Exist? (4.00 / 4)
I don't think that any nation has a right to exist in any ontological sense.  Certainly, the US doesn't, given the genocide on which we're founded.  But what country isn't based, ultimately on some form of arbitrarily monopolized violence?

This is, historically, how nation-states have been formed. And yet, the general sense of social contract theory is true: the alternative is much, much more violence, violence without respite or end.

So, really, Israel is not different in that way.  It is only, perhaps, more extreme in degree, not different in kind.  (And given the violence the Jews experienced before it was formed, it certainly isn't surprising.) When states recognize each other's right to exist, they are making a pact.  "I'll forgive your original sin if you forgive mine."

Now, that's either a pact with the devil, or a pact with the better angels of our nature.  What we do based on it is what decides which one it is.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Fair enough (4.00 / 3)
The issue only comes up, I suppose, because the Palestinians are still in a position to fight back, and the Lakota and the Celts are not. Perhaps because of this, Israelis insist on arguing that they have a right to the land. Unless they consider us total fools, who won't notice when our intelligence is being insulted, they'd be better off appealing to our sympathies in some other way.

[ Parent ]
True (4.00 / 1)
Behind every great fortune is a great crime.  But even small countries get great crimes.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
I hadn't thought it necessary, but perhaps I should add (0.00 / 0)
that I think that both you and J Street are on the right track. As you say, it's only common sense. Although I fear that it may be too late for a two-state solution, not without massive outside support on the one hand, and pressure on the other, a single-state solution, if it is even possible, would take far longer, with far greater opportunities for those opposed to derail it along the way.

No matter the difficulties, though, we must begin, and beginning with what J Street has to say would not be the worst thing that could happen.


[ Parent ]
++ (4.00 / 3)
Nations don't have rights. It's ridiculous when people say that a country has a right to exist. No country has a right to do anything. Only people have rights.

[ Parent ]
This is one of those liberal vs. conservative divides (4.00 / 2)
The ones Daniel was talking about over the weekend.

Conservatives attach value to institutions, provided they have power over said institutions. See the argument for states' rights, to take an example.

Of course, this does assume that that argument is ever made in good faith, but I digress.

Forgotten Countries - a foreign policy-focused blog


[ Parent ]
I Think Englishlefty Is Right (4.00 / 2)
And most people's who have long collective histories long prior to nationhood do think of their connections with a homeland in terms that can only be considered as a form of right.

Furthermore, one can't neatly divide the concept of individual and group rights.  There are significant rights that involve group membership that are simply meaningless in purely individualistic terms. For example, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights includes:

Article 15.

     (1) Everyone has the right to a nationality.

     (2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality.

This effectively includes both the traditional concept of a changeless national identity, and the concept of a freely chosen one.

Similarly, the right to marriage (in the UDHR, there is nothing excluding gay marriage, btw) or to join a union--both enshrined in the UDRH--are meaningless as individual rights.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
But it's still a pointless issue to discuss (4.00 / 1)
Israel exists. It's the major regional power and has second-strike nuclear capability. You can't make it stop existing if it doesn't want to.

Forgotten Countries - a foreign policy-focused blog

[ Parent ]
Yes, you can.... (4.00 / 1)
It pains me to say it, but the demographics of the area are inescapable, nukes or no nukes. For Israelis, the choices are rapidly being reduced to a) finding itself a minority so small in relation to its enemies that it can no longer defend its prerogatives, even by military force, b) genocide, or c) the nuclear option -- self-immolation in fact, if not in theory.

Knee-jerk American defenders of Israel right or wrong deny everything. Israelis themselves, however, are well aware of what they're facing. Ehud Olmert's final major speech was eloquent on that score. Although it was quickly characterized by both Israeli and American news media as the distraught last gasp of a completely discredited public figure, every Israeli knew that it was true.


[ Parent ]
Not for many years down the line (0.00 / 0)
The Arab population in Israel and the Palestinian territories will be equal to the Jewish population within a decade or less.

But it's not just a population game. Israel has top-spec modern technology, often heavily modded to make it more effective for their purposes. Hamas has unguided home-made rockets.

Israel has at least until 2050 before the population disparity comes close to overwhelming the tech disparity.

That's not to say it shouldn't worry, but it is to say that discussing Israel's right to exist gets us nowhere.

Forgotten Countries - a foreign policy-focused blog


[ Parent ]
Erewhon (4.00 / 1)
But of course nowhere is where we and the Israelis are at, and have been at in the forty years since 1967. Another forty years doesn't seem such a long time when looked at in that perspective. I'm no great believer in full spectrum dominance, here or there. The sense of security it brings to policy makers is often false.

The wiser Israelis have understood this for a long time, but they've lacked the political will to follow where their understanding leads. The reasons why are complex, but if discussing Israel's right to exist doesn't help reveal those reasons, neither do the increasing amounts of blood and money spent to continually confirm Israel's invincibility. Constant bearing means collision. Every navigator knows this, or should know it -- even metaphorical ones.


[ Parent ]
Paul R. and J Street should be commended. (4.00 / 2)
I hope our common goals can be accomplished, so my criticism is one directed toward allies:

The first is that the anti-Israel / pro-Israel divide is a way to muddle issue. Being anti-Israel is like being anti-American: useful and moral at times, and having very little to do with the continued existence of either state. Sure, there are factions that want to destroy America or Israel, but their goals are extreme and not realistic.

Second, J-Street speaks about the rights of Israel, but we should be speaking about the rights of Palestinians. Not only the right not to be murdered, but THE RIGHT TO RESIST. This is guaranteed under many UN documents.

Finally, the right of Israel to protect itself does not apply here. One person killed over many years by rocket attacks is a tragedy, but no right of defense is unlimited. If I am attacked by a gang member from a ghetto, this does not give me the right to burn the neighborhood down.


I Think It's Obvious (4.00 / 3)
that one reason folks got perterbed was precisely because I did speak about Palestinian rights.  And I will continue to do so.  The point of this post is that J Street has laid out a position that does not necessitate sacrificing one for the other.  And I fully support that.

Now, it's also the case that I as an individual and J Street as an organization have different responsibilities, goals, motivations.  It is more natural for me to speak freely about Palestinian rights and to take a more universalist perspective.  It is good that there are invididual Jews willing to do this, and it is good that there is a Jewish-American organization arguing basically (not absolutely) in harmony with this from the perspective of "what's good for the Jews."  We are stronger, not weaker, for the fact that these are not identical positions.

One can argue that my position is "purer" and "more moral", but morality that only exists to pat itself on the back is not much of a morality.  J Street is working hard to make a real difference--a life-saving difference for individuals on both sides.  And that's not chopped liver.  That's moral, too, and it has to be respected as such.  Not just respected, but praised.

I am by nature more comfortable arguing as you do.  But I see no point in arguing against J Street for taking a different approach.  They are taking a slightly different path toward the same goal, in part because someone has to take that path, or we will never reach that goal.


"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Sure. I think we can all agree that J Street is a good thing. (4.00 / 2)
I wholeheartedly support J Street, just as I support Tikkun. The latter in particular comes from a point of view that is very different from my own. I am a secular universalist--that is, we should identify with all that is good in each community, and empathize with the victimized, regardless of the community from which they come.

I believe that the discourse of human rights is what should be ruling the dialogue: this will guarantee a path that is good for the Palestinians AND the Israelis. There is too much of friend / foe, pro- or anti-. Indeed, many of the best commentators on the subject come from a secular, rationalist position, and they are marginalized to varying degrees by all groups, including J Street and Tikkun: Chomsky, Finkelstein, Robert Fisk, Michael Neumann, etc.  


[ Parent ]
I'm Not Sure (4.00 / 2)
re J Street marginalizing anyone, as I haven't noticed that.  Of course any group in DC sort of by default contributes to marginilizing outside voices not directly connected to them.  OTOH, I know that Tikkun likes making claims for itself and bossing others around.

But I'm trying to go the other way here--I'm trying to stress commonalities here, because I do think that many more people share a common ultimate goal than is usually realized or expressed, despite all the differences they certainly do have.

Still, I have a special fondness for Finkelstein, since whenever I rub folks the wrong way, I can always point to him and say, "Yeah, well, you think I'm being obnoxious and provocative..."  

Actually, though, I've never said that.  Just know that I could say it has always been enough.


"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Thank you for these posts. (4.00 / 3)
Paul, in my humble opinion,  your position on this subject is courageous, wise and moral--and truly appreciated.  I fist found out about J Street on this blog and it literally brought tears to my eyes when I went to the site. There is a path out of this morass and people like you are helping to lead the way.

[ Parent ]
Israel is self-destructing (0.00 / 0)
If I gave a rap about Israel (and I don't), I would be just about hysterical with concern at their self-destructive stance. Juan Cole has some of the best commentary and points out that world public opinion is slowly but decidedly turning against them and the apartheid state they are determined to build. You would think a two-state solution would be highly desirable for the Jewish state, but no, the monsters are in charge and insistent on destroying themselves and everything around them.

Paul, are you familiar with Jewish Voice for Peace? (4.00 / 2)
They've been around for a lot longer than J Street, and I think they have an excellent take on the entire issue.

Here is a statement from January 2007 called "One State or Two?" that has a very thoughtful take on how to approach zionism.


I Agree (4.00 / 2)
I've said before that I personally favor a secular one-state solution, but my position is the same as JVP--it's not for me to decided.  I hadn't read that particular piece before, but I am familiar with them generally.  

I pointed to J Street because they are specifically oriented around lobbying, and they've been dealt with here before recently.  In crises, it always seems you need to make the most of such voices, even though between crises, the majority of the hard word is done elsewhere.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Ease the blockade? (4.00 / 4)
Why was there a blockade at all if there were no rockets at all? Wasn't that why Hamas proposed ceasefires at least a half dozen times before Egypt entered the picture? It wanted to stop retaliation against Israel's military incursions into Gaza and the West Bank that resulted in the death of Palestinian militants as well as civilians which were always involved.

Obviously, Israel wanted to diminish Hamas as a political group in Gaza and so had to continue the killings and the siege, even during the ceasefire.

So now we hear that Israel is attacking Gaza because it has to defend itself. And I dumb if I believe this tripe?


Israeli Ambassador Speaks To The Gaza Strategy (4.00 / 2)
Great post!

Over at Marc Lynch's new digs at Foreign Policy, he has was able to speak with the Israeli ambassador. Interesting, if deeply disturbing:

http://lynch.foreignpolicy.com...

I spent the morning at a lecture organized by GWU's outstanding Homeland Security Policy Institute's Ambassador's Roundtable Series featuring Israel's Ambassador to the United States Sallai Meridor. It was a profoundly dismaying experience. Because if Ambassador Meridor is taken at his word, then Israel has no strategy in Gaza.

Asked three times by audience members, Meridor simply could not offer any plausible explanation as to how its military campaign in Gaza would achieve its stated goals. Indeed, he at times seemed to offer this absence of strategy as a virtue, as evidence that the war had been forced upon Israel rather than chosen: "we have no grand political scheme... we were forced to defend ourselves to provide better security, period." With current estimates of 550 Palestinians dead and 2500 wounded, and the region in turmoil, the absence of strategy is not a virtue.

(snip)

But as to a political strategy tied to the military campaign, nothing. No guidance as to whether Israel would re-occupy Gaza, or on what terms it would accept a cease-fire. No thoughts as to whether the campaign would cause Hamas to fall from power or help the Palestinian Authority regain political power. An absolute refusal to entertain a question about the negative effects of the images from Gaza on the wider region (the important image of the war, he nearly spat, should be that "terror is not allowed to win"). Would the military assault at least change Hamas's strategic calculus? "This is for the future, only the future will tell."

In other words, beyond demonstrating Israel's ability to slaughter huge numbers of civilians (along with the odd Hamas devotee), there is no point. Ergo, there is nothing to achieve.

"More than any other time in history, mankind faces a crossroads. One path leads to despair and utter hopelessness. The other, to total extinction. Let us pray we have the wisdom to choose correctly." -Woody Allen, My Speech to the Graduates


I Said This Before (4.00 / 4)
I don't really think Israel has a strategy.  It has rationales, some for itself, some for others.  But there is no strategy.  It's all on autopilot, all knee-jerk reactions to the consequences of its previous rounds of knee-jerk reactions.

I think, however, that we actually might be on the verge of some profound change.  The fact that they can no longer hide this strategic, as well as moral, vacuity is significant.  And it just may be that how we and others like us react can play a crucial role in determining just what it is significant of.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Hope (4.00 / 1)
I very much agree with you, but I worry. Whatever we do -- people who see this terrible situation for what it is -- I hope, I pray that we manage to contribute something positive. I'd hate to see our efforts, such as they are, wind up making things worse. I defend the Palestinians because they need defenders on our side of the world, but at the same time, I fear contributing to the demonization of Israelis who, as individuals, are caught up in this maelstrom, and so have lost their independence of action. We could just as easily have been born into their situation, and I wonder, if we were, how we could have done any better.

Whatever else remains to be said, none of us has the right to be sanctimonious while we are saying it. Giving advice, let alone judging people who are under terrible duress, even if it must be done, should only be done in the full knowledge that we are privileged.

This may sound obvious, and it may even sound sentimental, or self-serving, but I make no excuses. For me, at least, it's something which must be said.


[ Parent ]
I don't see how defending Palestinians most basic rights... (4.00 / 2)
...in any way demonizes Israelis. Of course, that's the way a lot of people look at it: "Whose side are you on?" etc.

If the editors of Ha'aretz  are okay with showing sympathy for Palestinians, it seems to me we should be able to do so as well without fear of repercussions.

I criticize my government, not to demonize Americans, but to express the wish that bad behaviors and policies be stopped. I would prefer that my government better represent its people. It's patriotic, even if it does come off sanctimonious at times (no one's perfect, especially me).

Two years ago there wasn't a J-Street. They would have been hounded out of town even that recently. This does represent progress, methinks. Perhaps we'll get a pleasant surprise out of the WH in a couple weeks. I'm not betting on it, but I'm not ruling it out either.

"More than any other time in history, mankind faces a crossroads. One path leads to despair and utter hopelessness. The other, to total extinction. Let us pray we have the wisdom to choose correctly." -Woody Allen, My Speech to the Graduates


[ Parent ]
Yes, I get it. (0.00 / 0)
It's all very logical, what you say, but then we aren't dealing with logic -- at least not exclusively -- when it comes to messes like this. If you speak one logical sentence, you're usually obliged to follow it with ten sentences designed solely to sooth feelings enough to allow the first sentence to be considered on its merits. Not a very efficient process, but it is a very human one.

It's not for nothing that Socrates was considered a pain in the ass....


[ Parent ]
Yes (4.00 / 1)
I put this up because it basically supports what you said previously.

It was meant as a sort of confirmation. From the Horse's Ambassador's mouth, as it were.

I also agree with your larger point, although chances are any real change would have to come from within Israel itself. If what the ambassador said is correct, they've basically 'got nuthin' to go on policy-wise other than lashing out periodically in some futile effort to "send a message". And this time they didn't even bother with a message beyond, "We will kill you." Point taken.

But one of the main impediments to them learning anything (as in two years ago as well) is the fact they will never run out of resources with which to engage in these activities if the US doesn't change it's policy of unlimited, slavish support for whatever Israel wants to do. Put simply, there simply aren't any opportunity costs for them, no matter how badly they behave.

Let's hope you're correct about our reactions somehow taking on some significance somehow.  

"More than any other time in history, mankind faces a crossroads. One path leads to despair and utter hopelessness. The other, to total extinction. Let us pray we have the wisdom to choose correctly." -Woody Allen, My Speech to the Graduates


[ Parent ]
Israel has been clear about its terms for a ceasefire (4.00 / 1)
If this account is accurate, it sounds like a failure of communication on the ambassador's part, because Barak, Livni and Olmert have repeatedly stated their terms for a ceasefire. http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/s...

They say their goal is simply to stop the rockets, and that only military force can achieve that objective. We know this is a lie, because Hamas honored the ceasefire. Israel's fabricated rocket crisis: http://electronicintifada.net/...

Livni even admitted just two months ago that a military response to the rocket fire "won't stop the attacks but appearances have a purpose. When Israel creates an image of weakness, this weakens our deterrent capability." http://newsx.com/story/37906

Thus why it appears there is no coherent strategy. One can't be explained or understood unless the real objectives are known.

Sometimes things slip out:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/worl...

Also crucial was what was not said. Just a few months ago Livni was talking of wiping out Hamas, but that would be unpalatable to much of the outside world as a justification for the assault. So now the talk is of pressing Gaza's government to agree to a new ceasefire. Occasionally someone has got off-message. A couple of days into the assault on Gaza, Israel's ambassador to the UN, Gabriela Shalev, said it would continue for "as long as it takes to dismantle Hamas completely". Infuriated Israeli officials in Jerusalem warned her that such statements could set back the diplomatic offensive.

As I was saying recently in another thread, it's becoming increasingly difficult for the US and Israel to project their rejectionism onto Hamas. Proving that it can be negotiated with in good faith, talking of a two-state settlement along '67 borders, the favorable report from Jimmy Carter - it was actually starting to look like Hamas could be a partner for peace. When the PLO threatened to be such a partner, the US and Israel sabotaged it by aiding Hamas.

Obviously we can't confirm Israel's true objectives. Radicalizing Palestinians and Hamas or replacing Hamas with Salafi Jihadists could just be a "happy accident" in what is a stepping stone to a much larger end game relating to Iran. Maybe Gaza is a testing ground for Israel's new bunker-busting missiles (courtesy of the US). Obviously the elections and the defeat in Lebanon are crucial context as well.


[ Parent ]
USER MENU

Open Left Campaigns

SEARCH

   

Advanced Search

QUICK HITS
STATE BLOGS
Powered by: SoapBlox