Obama's Surgeon General Pick Bad Medicine, Too?

by: Paul Rosenberg

Sat Jan 10, 2009 at 12:45


It may look like a long way down the power-packing food chain from Director of National Intelligence to Surgeon General, but Obama's Surgeon General pick, Sanjay Gupta, reveals the same fundamental problem as Admiral Blair:  he's part of the problem, not part of the solution, and promoting him in the name "competence" merely serves to expose the rhetoric of "competence" for the hollow shell it is, when, after 8 years of utter incompetence, it ought to be something real, concrete and capable of unifying Americans across the boards.

Like Blair, Gupta utterly fails that test, despite a considerable skill set.  Technical skills without integrity and without a commitment to the public good are not enough to qualify as competence for high-level public office, no matter how impressive those technical skills may be.  And, in fact, a closer look at the skill set reveals some real deficiencies there as well.  Paul Krugman raised the red flag on Gupta earlier this week, and now John Conyers has issued a " Dear Colleague" letter seeking support in opposition to Gupta's appointment.

On his blog, "Conscience of a Liberal," Paul Krugman kicked things off when he wrote Jan 6 ("The trouble with Sanjay Gupta"):

So apparently Obama plans to appoint CNN's Sanjay Gupta as Surgeon General. I don't have a problem with Gupta's qualifications. But I do remember his mugging of Michael Moore over Sicko. You don't have to like Moore or his film; but Gupta specifically claimed that Moore "fudged his facts", when the truth was that on every one of the allegedly fudged facts, Moore was actually right and CNN was wrong.

What bothered me about the incident was that it was what Digby would call Village behavior: Moore is an outsider, he's uncouth, so he gets smeared as unreliable even though he actually got it right. It's sort of a minor-league version of the way people who pointed out in real time that Bush was misleading us into war are to this day considered less "serious" than people who waited until it was fashionable to reach that conclusion. And appointing Gupta now, although it's a small thing, is just another example of the lack of accountability that always seems to be the rule when you get things wrong in a socially acceptable way.

 

Paul Rosenberg :: Obama's Surgeon General Pick Bad Medicine, Too?
Some of Krugman's commentators didn't quite get it, so he had to post an update to explain:

Many commenters don't seem to get the point. Gupta didn't say "Michael Moore is an annoying blowhard"; he didn't say "We question his interpretation of the evidence"; he said he "fudged the facts". In other words, he accused Moore of lying. That's a very strong accusation, which had better be backed by solid evidence. Instead, we had CNN misreading a number from Moore; CNN objecting to Moore using a projected health care spending number for 2007 instead of an actual number for 2005 (and the projection was right, by the way); CNN accusing Moore of not showing a number that was in fact right there in the movie. And Gupta did not apologize, except for the misread number.

After 8 years of Bush/Cheney, do we really need to have it explained that integrity is job one?  Apparently, we still do.

The next day, the Washington Post obediently lead off:

America's most famous television surgeon, Sanjay Gupta, is poised to take his black bag and microphone to the White House as President-elect Barack Obama's choice for U.S. surgeon general.

A neurosurgeon who is also a correspondent for CNN and CBS, Gupta was chosen as much for his broadcasting skills as for his medical résumé, suggesting that the incoming administration values visible advisers who can drive a public message. He has also been offered a top post in the new White House Office of Health Reform, twin duties that could make him the most influential surgeon general in history.

They next go on to note he is "one of People magazine's 'Sexiest Men Alive.'"  A good thing, no doubt, as it would be rather embarrassing to have a Surgeon General who, while incredibly sexy, just happened to be dead.

Farther down into the story, however, a bit of a problem began to show its head:

The globetrotting doctor has told Obama aides he wants the job, which involves overseeing the 6,000-member Commissioned Corps of the U.S. Public Health Service. When reached yesterday, Gupta did not deny that he plans to accept the offer but declined to comment.

Transition officials refused to speak on the record about his selection, but several Obama allies praised Gupta as the sort of highly visible, articulate physician who might restore the luster that the position of "the nation's doctor" had in the person of Reagan appointee C. Everett Koop and some of his predecessors.

A representative of the Commissioned Corps, however, said Gupta will face a "credibility gap" because he has never served in the uniformed Public Health Service.

"I am unaware of any public health experience or qualifications he has to be the leader of the nation's public health service," said Gerard M. Farrell, executive director of the service's Commissioned Officers Association. "This would be akin to appointing the Army chief of staff from the city council of Hoboken," N.J.

The issues are rather muddled here (what does on expect? WaPo article, Howard Kurtz is one of the co-authors...) but not too hard to straighten out:

(1) Public health and private health are two different things.  Public health has much more to do with basic levels of national health-lifespan, infant mortality rate, etc.-even though private health gobbles up the vast majority of the resources and attention.  One of the chief problems America has is a persistent failure to properly prioritize public health.  Further accentuating this mis-prioritization at the very time that we are preparing a potentially massive restructuring of our national health care system is not a good sign.

(2)  C. Everett Koop was not one of People magazine's "Sexiest Men Alive."  He was an unexpectedly (for Versailles) principled man who had been expected to robotically carry out a rightwing agenda, and did not.  He was noteworthy precisely because he was steeped in the public health ethos and took his position very seriously, over-riding all other considerations.  He was just the sort of moral heavyweight that's the exact opposite of the glib, mediagenic Gupta.

Koop was also one of a handful of doctors who virtually invented the field of pediatric surgery from the ground up.  It would not be an exaggeration to call him a towering figure in medical history.  See Wikipedita for more. The idea that Gupta could be compared to Koop is something that only a media person, not a medical person, could contemplate for a second without spraying coffee all over their keyboard.

(3) Farrell is not just being an envious grouch.  He is exactly the sort of neglected government scientist/staff professional that the Bush Administration spent 8 years running over, around and through.  Obama's willingness to take the same cavalier attitude toward the concerns Farrell raises that Bush/Cheney did is deeply disturbing, to say the least.

Conyers cited both Krugman and Farrell:

Dear Colleague,

Please join me in signing a letter to President-Elect Barack Obama opposing the nomination of Dr. Sanjay Gupta for the post of Surgeon General.

I join in opposition with respected Nobel Prize award wining economist Paul Krugman, who has very serious concerns with having Dr. Gupta be the nation's Surgeon General. (See January 6, 2009, New York Times Hosted Blog, "Conscience of a Liberal."

Also, there are highly experienced medical professionals who question whether Dr. Gupta has the necessary experience or even the medical background to be in charge of the 6,000 physicians who work in the United States Public Health Service. Gerard M. Farrel, Executive Director of the Commissioned Officers Association, stated in a January 7, 2008 Washington Post article that Dr. Gupta will certainly face a "credibility gap" because he never served in the National Health Service Corp, and furthermore, does not have the "experience or qualifications to be the leader of the nation's public health service."  Clearly, it is not in the best interests of the nation to have someone like this who lacks the requisite experience needed to oversee the federal agency that provides crucial health care assistance to some of the poorest and most underserved communities in America.

To sign on to the letter, please contact my office at 202 225-5126.

Sincerely,

John Conyers, Jr.
Member of Congress

We can expect Versailles to pooh-pooh Conyers and his concerns.  After all, they don't ever think about public health, unless--God forbid!--they should get food poisoning at some swanky restaurant.  But out here in America, things might just look a little bit different, if folks stop to think about it.


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Michael Moore is always wrong (4.00 / 6)
He's fat, and he's shrill, and he has a misguided (dark) sense of humor. If you hated Tom Paine, or Patrick Henry, you're morally obligated to hate Michael Moore.

We need more centered, more balanced, more deeply serious panderers ponderers to guide our national discourse -- people like, say, David Broder. Otherwise, we'd just be squabbling all the time.


Man, I can't abide squabbling (4.00 / 2)
That and bickering. Intolerable.

[ Parent ]
You started it. (4.00 / 2)


Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
Moore not innocent in all this (0.00 / 0)
Gupta may have exaggerated and "fudged" his commentary on Moore, but Moore ain't exactly innocent in all this.  If some right wing blogger grabbed one number from one source from an earlier year and another from a completely different source which was only a projection for a future year, we would call that blogger out.

Gupta's main point was Moore picked each number individually that made his case look stronger.  Moore didn't even attempt to counter that arguement, instead he just kept on yelling how each number was valid in isolation.

Now, I've not watched either Sicko or Gupta's report, I only saw a portion of the debate between the two.  Given the agreement they had over the validity of the individual numbers, Gupta's case looked stronger.  I don't know if this is how Gupta explained it in the actual report, though.  If not, Gupta deserves much of his flack, but, again, not more than Moore.

If anyone thinks I missed something major about the debate over the numbers (was Moore clear he was making imperfect comparisons, for example?) let me know.  But I've been seeing a lot of, to steal a phrase, Dear Leadership towards Moore in these debates.  The guy ain't perfect.


[ Parent ]
The Comparison Between the US And European-Style Systems Isn't Even Close To Being Close (4.00 / 2)
That's the ultimate bottom line here.  And pretending otherwise is criminally dishonest.


"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Why so strange for Moore (0.00 / 0)
Which is why it was so strange for Moore to cherry pick; he didn't need to!  Any set of numbers would show the same thing.

[ Parent ]
Numbers, he wants.... (0.00 / 0)
Now, I've not watched either Sicko or Gupta's report, I only saw a portion of the debate between the two.

Nu?


[ Parent ]
"Nu?"? (0.00 / 0)
Am I supposed to know what that means?

[ Parent ]
Nonono (2.00 / 2)
Don't rehash Gupta's talking points without knowing the facts.  Moore took Cuban (and other countries') data from a BBC International Report.  Moore took U.S. data from U.S. reports.  I find it strange that that's so hard to believe - using international reports for other countries and using U.S. reports for the U.S.

That is not cherry picking, that is using the most accurate data.

Netroots for Gore


[ Parent ]
Actually, I did know that (0.00 / 0)
And yes, it is cherry picking, particularly when you use a projection for one number and compare it to a historical value for another.  Give the international numbers for everything and re-enforce them with individual, U.S. numbers if you want, to prove the international source isn't biased.

My understanding is Gupta didn't make a very clear case in the report, either, simply saying "no, the number is X, not Y", which is worse than what Moore did, if true.  It was also fairly comical that Gupta's numbers weren't all that different than Moore's, certainly not in comparison.


[ Parent ]
But mostly, he's fat. (4.00 / 2)
Or so go may of the criticisms.

Cf. Al Gore, too.

With respect to Moore, I do cringe sometimes when he has a brilliant argument going and, rather than leave it, decides to add rhetorical flourish which often tends to distract people who might otherwise be persuadable.  (E.g. the trip to Cuba in Sicko, the bit of Wolfy spitting on his hair, etc.)

And he's fat.  There's that.

Villagers are approaching Ipecac-level powers vis-a-vis my gastrointestinal state.


[ Parent ]
Read Ezra Klein's post on this subject (0.00 / 0)
Its clear that Gupta has the persona of an establishment dipshit.  But you really need to address Ezra Klein's post on Gupta's appointment before condemning it wholeheartedly.

Expect Gupta to be doing more than health education, though. According to Howard Kurtz, Gupta has negotiated "an expanded role in providing health policy advice." And if he's advising the project, he'll almost certainly be advocating for it, too. Which means Sanjay Gupta, arguably the nation's most trusted health care authority, will back on TV screens arguing for Obama's universal health care plan, lending it his credibility as a doctor, a trusted media presence, and the nation's surgeon general. It's a far cry from the days when Ira Magaziner and Hillary Clinton were reform's best known advocates.

http://www.prospect.org/csnc/b...

(here's the URL, I can't figure out how to link with the Open Left formatting tools)

None of this is to say that Gupta is necessarily a good pick.  But the point is that Obama does have a rational behind picking him which you don't bother to address, for whatever reason.  


According to Howie Kurtz... (4.00 / 3)
there is no world except for that which he can perceive from his penthouse window.

[ Parent ]
So according to Klein, it will (4.00 / 2)
be a great thing to turn the Surgeon General -- hired by a Democrat -- to become effectively a shill for Administration policy?

How much credibility do you think Gupta will have as Surgeon General once he starts weighing in on the highly partisan debate over health care access, especially when it's essentially a matter of record that he was expressly chosen precisely to assume that partisan role?

Funny, I always thought that Democrats were "reality based", and wanted to separate, when they could, science and objective analysis from partisan wrangling. I thought that failing to do so was always a major complaint against the Bush WH.


[ Parent ]
I found a very useful, very much on point, (4.00 / 5)
video from a previous Surgeon General, Richard Carmona, as to his own experiences dealing with partisanship in his role as Surgeon General.

Richard Carmona, Bush's Surgeon General from 2002 through 2006, found that his independent voice was suppressed systematically by ideologues in the Bush administration. In this video, Carmona expresses both his own view about what a Surgeon General should be doing, and his understanding of the history of Surgeon Generals.

Among other things, he certainly had extensive prior experience in public health.

I ask again whether it makes any sense to turn the role of a Surgeon General into that one of an advocate for partisan policy.  


[ Parent ]
I Think It Makes Much More Sense To Do The Reverse (4.00 / 4)
Use the Surgeon General--standing soundly on the basis of medical science--as a guide for partisan policy, and then let the other party decide if they want to be even more openly anti-science than they already are.

Which is precisely why this decision process is so ass backwards.

In short, I agree with you 100%.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I really think basically we do agree on (4.00 / 3)
this issue.

But the critical thing is that the Surgeon General who is appointed be 1) of unquestioned competence in the public health issues he/she must deal with and 2) be allowed an unquestionably independent role in the policies he advocates for.

On the first of these criteria, Gupta is certainly falls well short. On the second, his simultaneous appointment to a role in Obama's health care reform team, presumably as some kind of public relations advocate, undermines any claim he has to independence.


[ Parent ]
You're Assuming (4.00 / 2)
That the Obama plan will be a good thing.  But given the trajectory Obama's been following, that's not necessarily assured.

In fact, one might well call this a "faith-based" assumption on your part.

Which is only compounded by the fact that Gupta is on record lying about the very subject that Obama wants him to pitch on.

Now, I still think that however compromised it may be, Obama's plan will likely be better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick.

But bringing Gupta on board to help sell it carries the distinct whiff about it of making it worse in order to sell it, and I'm not really a fan of that approach, for some dark unfathomable reason.

I dunno, call me a fact-infatuated DFH if you must, but that's just the way I am.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Don't forget one thing ... (4.00 / 2)
if the right .. and the corporate types .. are afraid of Obama's health care plan(because Conyers and Kennedy prevailed upon him) ... the right will demonize Gupta .. and won't be afraid to use Gupta's prior statements against him and Obama's health care plan .. and that will be a problem .. another "He was against it .. before he was for it" type of thing .. that I think Obama would try to avoid

[ Parent ]
If the Davids Broder and Gergen (4.00 / 3)
had been doctors, they'd be speaking Guptaese.  It's that simple.  Any person with any concern with fixing things would have said, point-black, that the US medically is a pathetic joke next to every other developed country, and that it's a moral outrage that this is so.  But, you know, that's shrill.  And that's so gauche in the Village.

[ Parent ]
From "Follow the Science" to "Follow the ratings." (4.00 / 4)
Gupta: "It (marijuana)can impair your cognitive ability"

Dr. Gupta, I challenge you to a $10,000 chess match, 4 games.
I smoke two before each game. You take 2 draws or 1 win, you take the match. Cash on the table.

(I'm a 40 year heavy user.)



This is a Test of the Emergency Free Speech System. This is only a Test. In an actual Free Speech Emergency, I'll be locked up.


Same Story Different Appointment (4.00 / 5)
Gupta has the following that Obama respects.  He likes high profile people and be damned if they are the right person for the job.  If Obama wants Gupta to pitch for him on health care reform can he buy him off with something other than Surgeon General?
How much creditability will he have if this is perceived as just one more IL "pay to play"  move?

Koop was not to my knowledge a high profile person before he got the appointment but became so because of competence. I would be more comfortable with someone that is well known and respected in the public health arena and could care less if I know anything else about them.

Competence, what a wonderful idea to bad we don't use it anymore.


I've yet to hear someone provide information about what historically has been deemed "competence" (0.00 / 0)
I can't tell whether Gupta has the qualifications or competence for this job, because I have no idea what the historical standards are.

For example, Farrell complaints that Gupta never served in the National Health Service Corp.  Have most prior surgeon generals had that background?


Missing The Big Picture, I Think (4.00 / 2)
My main point here is that integrity is the core qualification--and competence--that Gupta is missing.

I think that a nominee's background with the National Health Service Corp would be very reassuring, but not necessarily make-or-break.  The larger question is whether their outlook is sufficiently informed by the NHSC's ethos and perspective, and I think it's quite possible that someone who's not been a member could qualify--but should still enjoy their support as an indication that they really do embody their ethos and perspective.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Don't forget that Gupta .. (4.00 / 4)
has been a corporate shill while at CNN .. and mark my word .. the right will use it against him wheb fighting against UHC(not to mention Gupta's previous poo-pooing of UHC)

[ Parent ]
As I said before... (4.00 / 2)
everytime I step into my doctor's office, the dude is peddling drugs on closed circuit Big Pharma TV.

[ Parent ]
He strikes me as very self-promoting (4.00 / 6)
This was discussed a bit over at Ezra's the other day.  There, there was some swooning over his visit to Iraq, and his impromptu donning of surgical gear to perform five emergency neurosurgeries.  (We do seem to still love the myth of hero/doctor).
Well, I could find record of only one, on a fatally-injured little boy who was about to die, and did indeed die soon after.
The point is - how manufactured is his persona?  Was the activity in Iraq truly heroic, or grandstanding?  Did he really do anyone (besides himself) any good?  How did the story morph from one to five operations?
As someone who trained at a major trauma center (admittedly in internal medicine/nephrology, not surgery), I know that to be a competent neurosurgeon, where there are the thinnest of margins for error, takes grueling training, and constant practice.  How he remains competent while globetrotting for CNN eludes me - or has he stopped operating? (Away from the cameras, that is)?
Is someone with his skill-set (neurosurgery training and corporate talking head, with a large dose of self-promotion) what we need to be the point man on public health at this critical juncture?

Bingo! (4.00 / 4)
My problem all along with Obama has been sizzle vs. steak.  And the more he picks people who raise the same questions, the worse it looks.

If you've got 10 solid picks, and you add one who looks a little iffy, then maybe there's reason to think that they've been solidly vetted, and your fears are unfounded.  But with a continuing aura of hype, the opposite assumption starts to seem more likely.  When that happens, and folks such as yourself, who have some greater on-the-ground basis for questioning start chiming in, then we really do have a problem.  And it's much better to address such problems now, before anyone's actually taken office, than it is during a CAT 5 hurricane.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Yeah (0.00 / 0)
His corporate ties are pretty troubling.  This is the problem with putting establishment faces on progressive policies.  They tend to have conflicts of interest that lead them to ultimately cling to the status quo.  

That being said, it seems to me that Paul--as is often the case in his posts--makes an argument where things break down into very binary terms, and nothing else matters except the terms of the argument that he lays down.

Klein's point was that Obama is trying avoid Clinton's mistake of not developing a comprehensive PR strategy for health care.  I think this is pretty smart.  Frankly, I think the most important aspect to Obama's pick for Surgeon General is one that no one so far has actually addressed, including Ezra Klein, Paul Rosenberg, and Paul Krugman and that I don't know:

Does anyone posting here actually know what Sanjay Gupta's on-the-record positions are on federal healthcare systems, or say, European-style healthcare systems, like that of France's, for example?  To my mind, that is the most important thing.

It seems pretty stupid to me to dismiss Gupta simply because of one bad interview that he gave and his failure to "own up" and apologize.  Seeing that interview between Gupta and Moore is infuriating, but its also rather small potatoes.  His positions on government involvement in the healthcare industry is far more important.  


[ Parent ]
Sloppy Thinking (4.00 / 3)
That being said, it seems to me that Paul--as is often the case in his posts--makes an argument where things break down into very binary terms, and nothing else matters except the terms of the argument that he lays down.

I write a lot of posts where the choices are stark.  That's because I see a lot of morally despicable policies paraded around as serious "grownup" think, which I think need to be thoroughly discredited.

But that hardly means that I see everything in black-and-white terms.  Just because some things are utterly and totally wrong-headed hardly means there aren't other options that are very challenging to choose between.  And, indeed, reckognizing just why and how the "choices" being offered us are so unacceptable is the a very good starting point for discussing what sorts of real choices would be acceptable, even quite desirable.

Klein's point was that Obama is trying avoid Clinton's mistake of not developing a comprehensive PR strategy for health care.  I think this is pretty smart.

Yup!  Worry about the PR, and let the policy take care of itself. Brilliant!

Frankly, I think the most important aspect to Obama's pick for Surgeon General is one that no one so far has actually addressed, including Ezra Klein, Paul Rosenberg, and Paul Krugman and that I don't know:

Does anyone posting here actually know what Sanjay Gupta's on-the-record positions are on federal healthcare systems, or say, European-style healthcare systems, like that of France's, for example?  To my mind, that is the most important thing.

It seems pretty stupid to me to dismiss Gupta simply because of one bad interview that he gave and his failure to "own up" and apologize.

Gosh, how about this: Since (a) Gupta is famous for being famous, and not for his views on European-style healthcare systems, and (b) Gupta has used his fame to dump on European-style healthcare systems, by way of attacking Michael Moore, (c) what Gupta may have said when no one was really watching or listening might not amount to a hill of beans (d) in Obama's "sizzle, not steak" universe?

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Sloppy thinking? (0.00 / 0)
You accuse dsulz of sloppy thinking for this quote
That being said, it seems to me that Paul--as is often the case in his posts--makes an argument where things break down into very binary terms, and nothing else matters except the terms of the argument that he lays down.

But in the same post you make this statement
Yup!  Worry about the PR, and let the policy take care of itself. Brilliant!

Which quite clearly demonstrates what the poster was arguing.  You have reduced his/her more subtle suggestions to a simple binary dichotomy of focusing on PR or policy.  My read of the argument is that there are multiple factors involved in the building toward a UHC system and that the pick of Gupta is part of the overall process, not the sole element, or perhaps even a significant one.

And to be honest, this is a much greater example of "sloppy thinking" than anything you attacked:

Gosh, how about this: Since (a) Gupta is famous for being famous, and not for his views on European-style healthcare systems, and (b) Gupta has used his fame to dump on European-style healthcare systems, by way of attacking Michael Moore, (c) what Gupta may have said when no one was really watching or listening might not amount to a hill of beans (d) in Obama's "sizzle, not steak" universe?

A) is fine and logically self-contained, but B) is a train-wreck of association (did Gupta really "dump on European-style healthcare systems" just by attacking Moore?  Or is this possibly his attempt at generating conflict for the show or personal aggrandizement?- but the only way this might be true is if Moore was the demonstrable embodiment of the healthcare system or Gupta had clearly linked him as such- instead, Moore was being attacked for his work, not the subject of his work); C) does Gupta's personal opinions really mean nothing as candidate for Surgeon General?  Only his positions taken on camera are relevant?  Really? ; and D) is clearly opinion used as statement of fact in an argument and is actually a "petitio principii" or "begging the question" argument in which you are presenting as the principle the very premise of the validity of the matter in question.  In other words you are stating as fact the very question being debated and using that to support your argument.

Rather "sloppy thinking" I might say.


[ Parent ]
Sophisticated, But Wrong (4.00 / 1)
(1)
You accuse dsulz of sloppy thinking for this quote
    That being said, it seems to me that Paul--as is often the case in his posts--makes an argument where things break down into very binary terms, and nothing else matters except the terms of the argument that he lays down.

But in the same post you make this statement

    Yup! Worry about the PR, and let the policy take care of itself. Brilliant!

Which quite clearly demonstrates what the poster was arguing.  You have reduced his/her more subtle suggestions to a simple binary dichotomy of focusing on PR or policy.

If it is "more subtle" then it can't get the job done of justifying using Gupta, without taking the downsides seriously.  The argument was advanced to deflect the objections I and others have raised about him as a substantive choice.

Now, I agree that one could make a more subtle argument here.  But it's not what was presented, and it's not what Obama and his apologists generally claim.  To make a more subtle argument, one has to take the substantative criticisms seriously, not run away from them.

The dichotomous argument doesn't come from me.  I'm just the one who points it out.  Trying to revise it after the fact to recast it as more substantive undoes the logic under which it was first advanced.

(2) Your purported example of my "sloppy thinking" is not at all parallel with dsulz's.

He was badly mis-characterizing the underlying logic of my argumentation: there are some black-and-white sitautions=>there are only black-and-white situations.

I was presenting  a very plausible rationale for why Gupta's behavior vis-a-vis Michael Moore should be regarded as highly relevant, and not easily excused by facts not in evidence.  The fact that one can mount a counter-argument to dispute me doesn't mean the original argument was sloppy thinking.

Thus, when you argue:

but B) is a train-wreck of association (did Gupta really "dump on European-style healthcare systems" just by attacking Moore?  Or is this possibly his attempt at generating conflict for the show or personal aggrandizement?- but the only way this might be true is if Moore was the demonstrable embodiment of the healthcare system or Gupta had clearly linked him as such- instead, Moore was being attacked for his work, not the subject of his work);

I think this is a pathetically weak argument for a variety of reasons.  But it's not logically sloppy in the way that dsulz was being logically sloppy.  And neither was my arguement that you are responding to.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I always enjoy our disagreements Paul (0.00 / 0)
Especially because I believe you to be a very intelligent and passionate advocate.

I wish to point out first that I agree with you as to the merits of the Gupta appointment... I feel he was likely not the best qualified, or at least substantive, candidate for the position.

I do though, disagree with your portrayal of the argument made by the previous poster.  Then again, there is a good chance I am reading more into his/her argument than was intended.  So perhaps it is my mistake for conflating numerous posters arguments into a single theme.

I find this most interesting:

The dichotomous argument doesn't come from me.  I'm just the one who points it out.  Trying to revise it after the fact to recast it as more substantive undoes the logic under which it was first advanced.

If indeed you are merely presenting the argument of others in your opposition to the previous poster's thesis you should make reference of whom you suggest.  Your statement:
Worry about the PR, and let the policy take care of itself. Brilliant!

This suggests you are the originating author of this thought.  If you are attempting to present this dichotomous argument as a compilation of others than you should at least identify of whom you are referring.  It appears otherwise as a mere statement of your opinion.

Finally, I agree that my response to your multi-part argument against Gupta was indeed sloppy.  It was a by-product of my trying to argue within parameters set by you.  As I have told my students in the past, "As much as possible, define the terms of the discussion" since getting the other party to accept your definitions is a major step toward winning a debate.  I started from the premise of your multi-part argument and as such was constrained in my rebuttal.  I lost.

Anyway, keep up the good fight.  And hope you don't find my quasi-opposition to tiresome as I am merely trying to get you to focus your thinking in a more applicable manner.  While we are both a bit sloppy in our debate, my sloppiness is irrelevant to this discussion, but yours is quite pertinent given the authority and power you represent as a Front page author.


[ Parent ]
Rewriting history...... (4.00 / 4)
It interesting to see C. Everett Koop being viewed as a moral heavyweight and Sanjay Gupta being portrayed as a lesser nominee.  Although C. Everett Koop is now seen as a respected and successful Surgeon General, it was not always so.  When he was nominated he was viewed by many as an extremist.  He had referred to abortion as euthanasia, and to amniocentesis as "a search-and-destroy mission."   His nomination was opposed by a variety of organizations, among them the National Gay & Lesbian Task Force, Planned Parenthood and the National Organization for Women, as well as by many newspapers throughout the country, including The New York Times, which headlined its anti-Koop editorial ''Dr. Unqualified.''  

He did great things to decrease smoking and educate the public about AIDS.  However, after leaving government his career continued to be controversial.  During the great Alar scare" of 1989, when the Natural Resources Defense Council raised concerns about the use of Alar, a carcinogenic pesticide that was being sprayed on apples Koop issued a statement proclaiming that apples were safe. Coincidentally he had ties to the PR firm that was managing the campaign to minimize the threat posed by Alar. He also acted to undermine Diet for a Poisoned Planet, a book by David Steinman that warned about pesticides and chemical residues in foods. Koop again had ties to the PR firm that organized the campaign against Steinman, and issued a statement calling the book "trash." At about the same time Koop joined in a fight against a California referendum (nicknamed the "Big Green Initiative") aimed at banning the use of carcinogenic pesticides.  There was never any proof that he received compensation for using his stature to undermine these public health initiatives, but let's not rewrite history too much in an effort to contaminate Gupta's nomination.  


You're Right (4.00 / 1)
I was sort of getting carried away to make my point, so thanks for getting me refocused.

I don't really want to sanctify the guy, but compared to what the Reaganites were expecting him to be, he was totally unexpected, and I do want to give him his due for that.  He was, quite frankly, the only voice in the Administration that even admitted the existence of AIDs, for all practical purposes.  The hack work he did that you point to was relatively more of the mainstream conservative corporate apologia than the extreme wignut variety, which he was expected to deliver, but did not.  And it was precisely because he didn't deliver the expected pre-set ideological package that he gained such credibility.

Here we seem to have another go-round of the same sort of thing, with a different set of expectations.  But while the expectations are less Neanderthal, Koop's actual background seems far more substantial.  That's my main point here.  Obama is trying to out-Reagan Reagan with this one, when the lesson that should be learned is not to mess around like that at all.


"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Big versus good (0.00 / 0)
This is actually a very consistent choice for Obama, despite the obvious strangeness of it.  It is obvious Obama is pinning much of his administration on passing major health care reform and been thinking through what the obstacles could be, and what they were for the Clintons.  He has put large emphasis on working with congress, understanding the legislative barriers,  and making sure his team is made of experts getting things passed.  Gupta is there to get the American people on board.

Obama seems to be assuming getting the legislation correct is is the easy part.  The hard part is getting it passed.  I must admit having a hard time disagreeing with that assumption.

Yet there is a wide variety of possible health care solutions, some much better than others.  I'd rather one of the weaker ones passed than a better one fail, but of course I'd really like to see the best succeed.  

It seems pretty obvious to me that Obama will be very successful in getting major legislation passed that will large changes in how we do medicine in this country.  It is also, unfortunately, obvious that the solution won't be nearly as good as it could have been.


The Subtext Always Seems To Be That We Don't UNDERSTAND Obama (4.00 / 4)
But the plain truth is, we understand, we just think it's far too muddled in contradictions.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Statistics vs. anecdote (0.00 / 0)
The Village is a sucker for anecdote.  Take individual stories to illustrate whatever they want.  The position of Surgeon General ideally uses two strengths: a reliance on public health statistics to formulate policy and a "bully pulpit."

At its best we had the Surgeon General's warnings about the link between cigarettes and health problems like cancer and emphysema.  We had C. Everett Coop.  We had a push for realistic and effective AIDS policies.  These made a real difference.  At its worst, we have the Bush II people overwhelming science for political purposes.  

Sanjay Gupta may fit part of the bill but he seems to be weak in the statistics department.  Does the word "epidemiology" even appear on his resume?


It gets worse. (4.00 / 2)
I saw this over at Fighting Liberals:

As a media figure, he has been disturbingly cozy with Big Pharma. He co-hosts Turner Private Networks' monthly show "Accent Health," which airs in doctors' offices around the country and which serves as a major conduit for targeted ads from the drug companies. Another example: In 2003, despite mounting evidence to the contrary, he publicly downplayed concerns about the dangers of Vioxx. It was removed from the market a year later by its manufacturer, Merck.

Conflict of interests, anyone?

Montani semper liberi


That's it. (4.00 / 2)
That's what I see in my doctor's office.  Every time.

[ Parent ]
Interesting, but I actually don't mind the Gupta appointment (0.00 / 0)
I was talking to a friend of mine, who worked at Grady Memorial Hospital in Atlanta. This is an urban hospital that treats some very high-risk patients and deals with a lot of patients in the African-American community and/or are impoverished.

My friend was detailing me how when she worked there during the summer, she Gupta a couple of times, doing surgery and otherwise working.

I think it's dishonest to portray him as some hack who doesn't work much or who doesn't know what it's like in hospitals that server poorer areas. He works at CNN studios in Atlanta, which, given his workplace, doesn't seem to imply a very long commute.

I agree that it's kind of awkward that he would want to after being a public opponent of a national health care plan, but heck, if he signs on to it, I'm perfectly happy with having him vouch for it.


Except .. (0.00 / 0)
as was stated before .. Gupta's specialty is not something you can do periodically ... it is something you have to do constantly to stay sharp .. and as you stated .. he against it .. before he was for it .. which the Republicans/Nutters will not hesitate to use against him .. and also use to demonize Obama's health care agenda

[ Parent ]
Gupta's Going to Be an Empty Suit (4.00 / 3)
He's a spokesmodel, that's all. He's going to be the spokesmodel to low information voters pimping Obama's health care policy. Second on their list was probably Hugh Laurie from House. This appointment is all sizzle and no steak.  

Hugh Laurie Would Have Been Interesting! (4.00 / 1)
He could actually intimidate some GOP Senators while testifying before them.  I would have paid to see that.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Health care reform is being punted to the Senate (4.00 / 2)
As soon as Obama tapped Daschle for SOH, I wondered if he was really serious about health care reform.  Sure Daschle might have written a book about it, but that was after he left the senate and since then hasn't led a very high profile on the issue.  At around the same time, the Senate reported that it was forming its committee on health care reform, to include Ted Kennedy other heavy hitters.

It was possible, I thought, that Obama was going to turn health care reform over to the Senate.

And over time it became clearer and clearer to me that Obama's executive interest in health was more in terms of research than policy (and well, who can blame him.  Much as he has said that a president should be able to do more than one thing at a time, he hasn't shown much skill at this high-level multi-tasking.  On top of that, if his economic stimulus package is going to include entitlement reform he'll have a difficult time transforming the health care system, ostensibly adding to the entitlement, at the same time.)

The final nail in the coffin is Gupta's appointment to SG.  The guy knows nothing about public health or health care administration.  But if reform comes from the Senate, all the SG has to do is endorse the plan and sell it on TV to the public.

None of this is to say that it's a bad idea to give the senate something to sinks its teeth into.  Strategically, it's critical that the Senate have a success that they can call their own.  And frankly I have more faith in Kennedy than Obama when it comes to health care.


Interesting Take (4.00 / 1)
And I certainly agree with your last sentence 100%.

But that still leaves Hugh Laurie as a better pick.  Intimidate the crap out of Mitch McConnell.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Quick, Alert the F-ing Media (4.00 / 1)
Because I actually agree with Paul on this one. On more than one occasion I've seen Gupta push unsubstantiated and misinformation on CNN.  He has compromised himself far too many times for me to be comfortable with him in my government.

I would also go further and disqualify anyone who's ever worked for CNN or its parent company, from ever working in the US government.


Well, Toobin, maybe. (0.00 / 0)
Other than that, I'm hard-pressed for names.

[ Parent ]
Gupta's tainted source (0.00 / 0)
In his attempt to discredit Michael Moore and Sicko, Dr. Sanjay Gupta used figures provided almost exclusively by Dr. Paul Keckley, whom he disingenuously only as an expert from Vanderbilt University (working for a center whose chairman and patron was Fred Thompson, former Republican candidate).  At Vandy, he taught a course in private health industry management!

In fact, Keckley has long been a "gun for hire" for the private health industry.  In addition, he had created and run the largest private dental HMO organization in the country (InterDent), created a company, EBM Solutions, to sell software to the private healthcare industry and for-profit hospitals. He had also been the President and Director of Aveta, Inc. which, according to his own CV, "provides management services to Independent Practitioner
Associations (IPAs), a network of physicians that contract with managed care plans accepting pre-payment for all professional services," and "managed care contract negotiation, ... actuarial analysis for HMO contract proposals."

Before even that, for 20 years he ran The Keckley Group, which provided business planning, market analysis, and capital acquisition for startup private healthcare companies.

All of Gupta's "facts" were being fed to him by one of the industry's leading flacks, and he was not only spewing this biased and demonstrably false information, but failed to identify any of the numerous conflicts of interest with his sole source for his figures.

When Moore pointed out that Keckley was involved in the industry, Gupta hotly denied it, repeated that he was an impartial scholar from Vanderbilt, and claimed that CNN had looked into Keckley's credentials thoroughly.

So, was Gupta just a gullible fool, or was he pushing a political agenda supporting HMOs and the private health carte industry and trying to discredit not only Moore and Sicko, but the entire case for single-payer, government-managed, tax-funded insurance?

Either way, the man does not deserve to be the spokesman for healthcare in an administration that claims to be for "change."

"If you want to build a ship, don't herd people together to collect wood and don't assign them tasks and work, but rather teach them to long for the endless immensity of the sea.

--Antoine de Saint-Exupéry"


Surgeon General (0.00 / 0)
A payday loan won't be necessary to get Dr. Sanjay Gupta through the doors of the new administration. It has been reported that President-elect Barack Obama has chosen the respectable, 36 year-old doctor to become the next Surgeon General. Dr. Gupta has served as the chief medical correspondent for CNN for almost a decade. During the Clinton administration, he served as a special adviser to then-first lady Hillary Clinton. Dr. Gupta has an impressive background of education and research accomplishments.  Read more about Dr. Sanjay Gupta and his possible position in the White House at your payday loans source.






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