Obama To Rein In CIA Interrogations?

by: Daniel De Groot

Sat Jan 17, 2009 at 10:21


Mixed Signals:


The proposal Obama is considering would require all CIA interrogators to follow conduct outlined in the U.S. Army Field Manual, the officials said. The plans would also have the effect of shutting down secret "black site" prisons around the world where the CIA has questioned terror suspects, with all future interrogations taking place inside American military facilities.

However, Obama's changes may not be absolute. His advisers are considering adding a classified loophole to the rules that could allow the CIA to use some interrogation methods not specifically authorized by the Pentagon, the officials said.

This just won't do.  Digby had some good commentary on this a few days ago worth repeating:

Daniel De Groot :: Obama To Rein In CIA Interrogations?

But I would suggest that Obama contemplate one little thing before he decides to try to find "middle ground" on torture. It is a trap. If he continues to torture in any way or even tacitly agrees to allow it in certain circumstances, the intelligence community will make sure it is leaked. They want protection from both parties and there is no better way to do it than to implicate Obama. And the result of that will be to destroy his foreign policy.

If the man who represents the second chance this country's been given around the world to repudiate the horrors of the Bush years is revealed to have perpetuated the same horrors, his credibility and foreign policy will be in shambles. And there are many people buried in the intelligence and military establishments who would be happy to make sure that happens.

As the AP article says:


Obama spokeswoman Brooke Anderson did not have an immediate comment Friday about the drafted plans, which the two officials discussed only on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to comment publicly

The article only identifies them as "US Officials" which says to me they are permanent government employees rather than transition officials.  I think Digby was on the right track. They're probably spooks.

There are four main possibilities about what secret authorized interrogation techniques could mean:

  1. Obama is sincerely trying to end torture, but there are actual useful non-torture interrogation tactics that CIA uses which shouldn't be advertised.

  2. Obama is ordering torture to stop and some loophole has been left because career Intelligence types and foreign policy cynics are deceiving him into leaving them wiggle room to "do what needs to be done" since the naive occupant of the White House won't authorize it explicitly.

  3. Obama is ordering torture to stop to create plausible deniability for himself while knowingly leaving wiggle room for Men of Action to carry on with a wink and nod.

  4. Obama is trying to create the impression that torture has been halted, but has decided it is useful and necessary (which would include that he will just stop waterboarding but leave open other forms of torture which are less universally acknowledged as such, like stress positions and extremes of temperature).

Most of you (including me) would be inclined to believe it is the first.  But we cannot ignore the substantial portion of the world who will believe it is any of the others.

Obama has been given a lot of slack, but not on this.  America's moral credibility has not been redeemed, it is merely out on bail.

It may well be very reasonable to want to have some (non-torture) techniques that CIA keeps secret because knowledge of the technique might  blunt its effectiveness, but not after what Bush has done.  It is the price of his Presidency.  I always thought it was numbingly stupid that enemies of America knowing about Waterboarding might allow them to prepare for it, but that's because Waterboarding is torture.  You can't prepare yourself for torture.  That's why we call it "torture."  But for other, more subtle psychological techniques and attempts to win trust and so forth, it seems plausible at a glance that one could be trained to resist.

Obama saying "we do not torture" will not be enough to convince a large set of people.  Some may give him credit for sincerity, but simply assume that the military-industrial complex really runs the show in America, and CIA is merrily torturing away while a young naive puppet President is kept in the dark.  Others will assume either of the two worst alternatives.  Many of these people are the hearts and minds in the Middle East America needs to win over in the battle of ideas.

The above article would have passed without comment in the Clinton era, and even in the pre-Abu Gharib portion of Bush's.  No longer. Obama can't leave any wiggle room because the perception is just too fragile.

Whatever the value of any secret non-torture interrogation techniques, either they have to be declassified and published, or they need to be shelved for a future time when the World is open to believing America doesn't torture.


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This diary is wrong! Good interrogation does not require anything illegal. (4.00 / 2)
From an opinion piece titled "Talk, not torture, gets the information" in the Los Angeles Times of December 30, 2008 written by an interrogator in Iraq comes these quotes:

"There is more than one approach to extracting information from a captive. Interrogators are often encouraged to use threats and intimidation -- and even harsher methods. But my small group of Air Force investigators, along with several military and civilian interrogators on my team, were committed to a different way. We believed that interrogation methods based on building a relationship and on intellectual engagement were far more effective than intimidation and coercion."

"Good interrogation is not an exercise in domination or control. It's an opportunity for negotiation and compromise. It's a common ground where the two sides in this war meet, and it's a grand stage where words become giants, tears flow like rivers and emotions rage like wildfires. It is a forum in which we should always display America's strengths -- cultural understanding, tolerance, compassion and intellect."

"We will win this war by being smarter, not harsher. For those who would accuse me of being too nice to our enemies, I encourage you to examine our success in hunting down Zarqawi and his network. The drop in suicide bombings in Iraq at two points in the spring and summer of 2006 was a direct result of our smarter interrogation methods."

I strongly disagree with the assumptions that lead the  diarist to say that most of us believe

"Obama is sincerely trying to end torture, but there are actual useful non-torture interrogation tactics that CIA uses which shouldn't be advertised."

The reality in the field is that skillful talk gets results.  Go read the entire Los Angeles Time Op-Ed at:http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-alexander30-2008dec30,0,5210843.story


yeesh, relax (4.00 / 3)
Who said anything about using illegal tactics?  I am explicitly talking about techniques that are emphatically not torture which might be best kept secret.

You are, however, case in point of what I'm talking about since you equate secret tactics with being automatically torture.  It's a good example of why Obama can't let CIA keep any of their interrogation tactics secret.


[ Parent ]
I Think You're Misreading What Daniel Wrote (4.00 / 4)
because I'm as deeply schooled in what's wrong with torture as anyone, and nothing in this diary raised a red flag for me.

However, the very fact that you had this reaction is indicative of how utterly wrong-headed it is to leave any wiggle room whatsoever.  Even a rejection of torture that is too nuanced in explaining itself will be heard by some as an endorsement, or at least a "wink and a nod" acceptance.  And we can't be anywhere within a country mile of that.  We have to be utterly and completely opposed.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Please be explicit. What are interrogation tactics that are not illegal, but should not be public? (0.00 / 0)
This is a very slippery slope and if Obama is not really clean on this and it comes out, it will lose a lot of credibility.

[ Parent ]
aoei (4.00 / 1)
I completely agree it is a slippery slope and don't want Obama on it.  I do believe such things could exist though.  If you are using non-coercive psychology to win cooperation from detainees, the specific tricks, techniques and so forth could help you prepare for it and avoid divulging useful intel.

In civilian context, if the police arrest a pair of people suspected of a crime, they will interrogate them separately, and tell each of them that the other has confessed so they may as well confess and hope for mercy from the DA for cooperating.  If you don't know about this game, you are very likely to fall for this and confess (sometimes even if you actually didn't commit any crimes).

None of that would be illegal and definitely not torture.  It might be argued to be unethical since it involves lying, but that's another debate.


[ Parent ]
I am sorry, I cannot put so innocent a spin on the news clip you highlighted. (0.00 / 0)
If it was merely this sort of thing, there would be no need to put an asterisk in the "no torture" declaration.

[ Parent ]
Non-torture secret integration techniques (0.00 / 0)
Come on, the CIA has lots of secret tricks which Obama just recently learned about, none of which are torture.

5) Build a replica neighborhood of the detainee's home town, complete with a clone of his mother and best friend.

4) Alien worms that slither through the ear into the central cortex and force the detainee to speak the truth.

3) Magic.

2) Force the detainee to watch Tellitubbies 24/7.  (Oh, wait, that would actually be torture.)

1) Mutant mind readers!

[I'm only good enough for a top 5.  Damn that Letterman and his high expectations!]


[ Parent ]
Sounds like more of the same (0.00 / 0)
"We're going to change everything. Except we really aren't."

Is The Obama Flake-Out A Mandatory Move? Or Merely A Customary One? (4.00 / 1)
It seems like every position that Obama takes has to be contradicted in some way, large or small.  And as this example so clearly shows, there are no small contradictions.  "No" means "no", or else it means nothing.

Obama seems to have it wired in his DNA that such signals show he is broadminded and tolerant.  "Hey, we're only torturing you so that Rush Limbaugh can cut back on his oxycontin a little bit.  We've got to reach out to everyone, you know!"

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


You'd think (4.00 / 1)
This would be one area where it would be trivially easy to draw a bright, thick line for his Administration and say "thou shalt not cross."  It's bad enough this is just an executive order and not congressional legislation, but at least make the EO a good one.

But as I'm optimistic enough about the man to believe it is either the first or second, he needs to learn not to trust the MiC too far.  Kennedy had an object lesson, and I hope Obama doesn't wait for his own Bay of Pigs to realize he cannot trust the Serious men in nondescript suits and aviator sunglasses who tell him he "must" do this or that because that's just "how it is done."  

I doubt any of the lessons of the Bush years have really sunk in with the Intel community as to how few shreds of credibility they're left with.  The old games won't work anymore.


[ Parent ]
I'm always surprised when people (0.00 / 0)
try to analyze Obama's stance on torture, without giving due heed to the thing that surely weighs most on Obama's decision regarding what to do about it: the politics of it.

If people haven't yet caught on to the fact that the central driving force of any and all of Obama's decisions is the political implications, what have they really learned?

Look, Obama is quite completely and maddeningly desperate to avoid looking soft on matters of national security. After 9/11, Bush and friends made out that torture was a vital tool in fighting terrorists. It little mattered that not a single case was produced that even remotely established its utility; it was rather that it was made to seem right psychologically to many or most voters that torture would be useful with these sorts of suspects.

Now, to deal with the politics of it, Obama would have to fight back against that perception, fairly well entrenched in the minds of the public -- the same public that laps up programming like 24.

To fight that fight, Obama would have to stake some political capital to beat down the impression that torture is strength in matters of national security. He would have to come out as a fighter for what is right against a fairly popular view, and allow himself to be depicted by his enemies and by interests in the national security establishment as soft on terror.

Of course, he has to deal as well with a countervailing rather popular view that torture is wrong, not to mention his own explicit promise to end torture.

Even for one of the most committed and adept baby-splitters in all of politics, it's not going to be easy to find the seam in the middle of this one. That's why there's so very much fussing about regarding his actual decision, why day by day he seems to swing one way or another, why he wants to be on record doing something really, really tough like torture, without being on record endorsing actual, well, torture. He wants the good politics of both sides.

But I think we can safely say that if we want to predict what Obama will do here, we can toss out our moral calculators, and rely entirely on our political calculators.


So Why Is Obama So Eager To Be Mr 29%??? (4.00 / 1)
Only problem is, look where this sort of political calculation landed Bush.

It's like the one person in America who doesn't believe in Barack Obama is... Barack Obama.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Not eager as much as accepting conventional wisdom (4.00 / 1)
While I think we can easily say Bush and Cheney are RWA (right-wing authoritarians) and generally all 'round sociopaths (even sadists), I don't think the same applies to Obama, so I doubt his thinking is quite the same.

In a sense, what I find even more disturbing is this sense from the ruling class (looking at Newsweak, MSNBC, NYTimes and every other national outlet) that they genuinely like the idea that the US is a torture state. Frankly is suggesting that decisions about war crimes are essentially petty political ones, rather than matters of principle.

I hope such is not the case, but it seems very possible it is. So in other words, all this stuff about condoning these horrific crimes coming down to what an increasingly hostile (to human rights, democracy, DFHs and so on) political class thinks  that makes them look "tough on the swarthies" is seemingly all that matters. Appearing tough through systematic torture, even of innocent people. That's some kind of sickness, isn't it?

So one needn't be a sadistic assclown to do horrific things. One merely need to "go along to get along" and not ruffle any feathers. Except the feathers of those Dirty Fucking Hippies. That's okay! It makes them look bi-partisan!

I can't tell which side Obama's really on yet. It's these red flag items that keep popping up that keep me questioning what he really believes in, assuming he believes in anything aside from his own self-aggrandizement. Hopefully we'll find out soon.

If everything, even the right to not be tortured, can be bargained away in the name of bi=partisanship, what else is left to hold on to? That pretty much eviscerates any notion of American Values. But that's the point, of course.

"More than any other time in history, mankind faces a crossroads. One path leads to despair and utter hopelessness. The other, to total extinction. Let us pray we have the wisdom to choose correctly." -Woody Allen, My Speech to the Graduates


[ Parent ]
If you give the CIA an inch (0.00 / 0)
they take a mile, or 10 or 100.

And let's not forget, the institution that W inherited was already pretty shaky when it can to doing everything by the book.  Bush has had eight to completely and utter subvert whatever minimal restraints where in place and staff the agency from top to bottom with his usual gang of thugs, cronies and ne'er-do-wells.  Actually, for the CIA, Dubya probably didn't pick the from the usual crop, but instead opted for the professional thugs, cronies and ne'er-do-wells.

It's too bad we can't just it shut down and start over.  

Oh, and let's not forget that the CIA was in fact the "responsible" agency to the point that Cheney had to invent several others institutions to circumvent the CIA.  


Wasn't that (0.00 / 0)
The point of putting Porter Goss in charge?  That whole episode probably needs more light shed on it.  It seems like they were able to drive him away pretty quickly.

But given how much neoconservatives hate and mistrust the CIA, I'm willing to guess it isn't under their thumb the way DoJ was despoiled.  CIA likely has its own institutional agenda, one which doesn't align with either political party as presently constructed.  That's not to say they can be trusted, just that it's not as simple as jamming CIA full of loyal bushies (which is probably pretty difficult since there is no set of fundie spook schools the way there is for law schools).


[ Parent ]
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