Obama, Iran, and the Confidence of Your Convictions

by: Matt Stoller

Mon Sep 03, 2007 at 08:00


I tend to offer criticism of a politicians based on policy disagreements or issues of integrity.  Over the past few days, the object of my criticism has been Barack Obama and his pugilistic language towards Iran.  Obama is pushing a bill that would make it easier for American entities to divest from companies doing business with Iran, a bill with wide support in Congress as well as being a top AIPAC priority.  An Obama supporter in the comments, horizonr, angrily pointed out that I was unfair to Obama because I hadn't linked to this Op-Ed he had written titled ' Hit Iran where it hurts', and that this piece gave his comments more context.
Matt Stoller :: Obama, Iran, and the Confidence of Your Convictions
Now, I'm very worried about a possible attack on Iran.  In many ways, it's the single most destructive policy choice remaining before the Bush administration, one Democrats are unwilling to stop because of Bush Dogs like Zack Space and power centers like AIPAC.  Highly connected foreign policy experts have been warning about the possibility of Cheney consolidating his influence and pushing Bush towards another war.  Regardless of whether you think an attack on Iran is a good idea or not, there is a possibility of war at the behest of this White House.

While national security experts I know aren't concerned at this moment, Juan Cole blogged about a PR rollout of an Iran war this fall, and noted some correspondence from a friend talking about what he heard at a right-wing think tank.

They [the source's institution] have "instructions" (yes, that was the word used) from the Office of the Vice-President to roll out a campaign for war with Iran in the week after Labor Day; it will be coordinated with the American Enterprise Institute, the Wall Street Journal, the Weekly Standard, Commentary, Fox, and the usual suspects. It will be heavy sustained assault on the airwaves, designed to knock public sentiment into a position from which a war can be maintained. Evidently they don't think they'll ever get majority support for this--they want something like 35-40 percent support, which in their book is "plenty.

Right now, the Bush administration is hampered in its policy choices by its ineptitude and lack of support.  The only way that we will attack Iran is if Democratic elites offer Bush the legitimacy to do so by agreeing on Iran's innate validity as an evil target for American forces.  One of the key factors that will increase Bush's capacity to attack Iran is Democratic leaders such as Obama acknowledging that Iran presents a mortal threat.  And that's exactly what he does with the Op-Ed that the Obama supporter was so angry I didn't cite.

Americans need to come together to confront the challenge posed by Iran. Yet the Bush administration and an anonymous senator are blocking a bill with bipartisan support that would ratchet up the pressure on the Iranian regime. It's time for this obstructionism to stop.

The decision to wage a misguided war in Iraq has substantially strengthened Iran, which now poses the greatest strategic challenge to U.S. interests in the Middle East in a generation. Iran supports violent groups and sectarian politics in Iraq, fuels terror and extremism across the Middle East and continues to make progress on its nuclear program in defiance of the international community. Meanwhile, Iran's President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has declared that Israel must be "wiped off the map."

If the second paragraph didn't knock the invasion of Iraq, there would be no way to know that this was not authored by a neoconservative itching for war with Iran who is in some ways going to the right of Bush on the use of American power.  That Obama is pushing for sanctions and not war is largely irrelevant, since Bush is actually the President and what he needs for an attack on Iran is precisely the legitimacy Obama is affording him.  Bush and the whole right-wing infrastructure are going to say, 'as Democrats like Barack Obama have acknowledged, Iran "poses the greatest strategic challenge to U.S. interests in the Middle East in a generation"', and force is on the table.  That's just obvious.  With this Op-Ed Obama has just increased the leverage Cheney has in the White House because it's clear that the only thing Obama and Cheney disagree on with respect to Iran is how to put pressure on the regime. 

I've also criticized Zack Space, who has similarly participated in the right-wing is PR campaign against Iran, and I will continue to offer criticism against any Democrat who argues that Iran is some sort of existential threat.  In these criticisms, I tend to get pushback from those who believe I am glossing over the geopolitical realities of the Middle East.  The argument is typically a mixture of bluster, denial, and finally a concession that the commenter believes that Iran needs to be constrained by American might.  First is the anger that I am misrepresenting Obama and associating him with Bush.  He did not call for an attack on Iran.  Then comes an attack on my integrity.  You did not cite this mitigating content.  And finally comes the commenter's actual opinion.  Iran is dangerous, and what Obama or Space are calling for is reasonable.  This is not isolated to comments on blogs, but is a hallmark of liberal political dialogue and a way that Democratic base voters excuse our leaders for deeply immoral and illiberal behavior.  I've gotten this kind of nonsensical attack from Change to Win's Jason Lefkowitz after criticizing the Teamsters for divesting from Iran.  Lefkowitz dishonestly portrayed Jimmy Hoffa as doing this solely for labor violations, leaving out the point I made that Hoffa's rationale included terrorism, Iraq, and Iran being an 'enemy' of the United States.  The Teamsters used our right to respond feature and denied affirming an attack on Iran, and that union deserves praise for its retraction.  But Lefkowitz's words stand as a marker of dishonesty and reflexive defensiveness, a cultural signal that a substantial part of the Democratic base, in this case Change to Win, is quite willing to lie to themselves about what they really think and smear their friends to sustain their self-deception.

My bottom line, and I think the reason the liberal blogs have a market of readers, is honesty in politics.  If you support Obama or Space in their criticism of Iran as a dangerous threat, then you are effectively supporting the use of American military force in Iran.  That's not the way I want it.  I'd like nuance in our foreign policy discussions, and I sympathize with those who want engagement with Iran backed up by bluster.  The problem is, Bush said 'you're either with us or against us', and he meant it.  He will use all demonization of Iran as an excuse to attack.  That's just his track record, and we shouldn't pretend otherwise.

In other words, have the courage of your convictions.  You do not need to support everything Obama says to support Obama.  You can say 'he went over the top here, but I like him anyway'.  That would at least acknowledge the fundamental dynamics of the situation.  But if you assert that Iran is a dangerous country that poses massive threats to the US in the Middle East or if you support Obama in making that assertion, then you are supporting an attack and making it more likely.  If you are critical of this line of rhetoric, then you are against an attack and are making it less likely.  I wish there were a third option, but it's just a cheap excuse for irresponsibility to pretend otherwise.  Bush doesn't do nuance, and I'm not sure why we haven't all learned this yet.


Tags: , , , , , , , (All Tags)
Print Friendly View Send As Email
Matt and Chris, you are out in front (4.00 / 1)
I notice that when we discuss issues of progressivism and the Democratic Party, including the Bush dog operation which OpenLeft is publicly identified with, we get one set of commenters.  When you criticize one of the Dem presidential candidates, we get that candidate's campaign people.

Campaigns are more conservative.  By their nature.  We can't let OpenLeft get conflated, even when after the primaries there might be only one candidate.

As you point out, the issue isn't just specific candidates.  There is disagreement over the U.S. as policeman of the world.  OpenLeft isn't the kind of entity where that can be easily resolved, but we need to try.  We need to be able to say something like, "I believe xxx," but the candidate needs to say "yyy."  We can't get into saying, "I used to believe xxx, but since my candidate needs to say yyy, I now believe yyy."

That said, any candidate that can't directly and unequivocably oppose ANY military action against Iran can rot in hell.

Full Court Press!  http://www.openleft.com/showDi...


Excellent Point (0.00 / 0)
From this sheep's eye, it is intellectually dishonest to consider a singular approach to the MULTITUDE of issues converging in the Middle East. There is not a single nation or culture or group whose removal or metamorphosis would result in a peaceful resolution. Its just a fraud to extol the virtues of a single actor's realignment in the region. It requires a regional solution. Do you honestly believe Iran is the sole source of strife from this region? If you believe so you must equally believe the utter nonsense that starts out... 'Oh they've been fighting over there forever!'. Find a populated spot on the globe that hasn't seen some militaristic hostility in the past 200 years. It's a regional crisis, anything involving a singular approach is not an honest assessment.
And regarding the Obama issue referenced in this piece, I think I made my (probably equally vapid)point here.
I truly hope any and all arguments regarding an impending air strike or expansion of the AUMF upon Iran are solely rhetorical saber-rattling.

So you are saying that if Bush's tactics are good enough for Bush, you'll use them back? (4.00 / 1)
Because that's what this reasoning sounds like:

"If you support Obama or Space in their criticism of Iran as a dangerous threat, then you are effectively supporting the use of American military force in Iran.  That's not the way I want it.  I'd like nuance in our foreign policy discussions, and I sympathize with those who want engagement with Iran backed up by bluster.  The problem is, Bush said 'you're either with us or against us', and he meant it.  He will use all demonization of Iran as an excuse to attack.  That's just his track record, and we shouldn't pretend otherwise."

And again here: "I wish there were a third option, but it's just a cheap excuse for irresponsibility to pretend otherwise.  Bush doesn't do nuance, and I'm not sure why we haven't all learned this yet."

Yet:

You write that you would like nuance.

You write that you don't want military action.

You write "have the courage of convictions."

But you aren't demonstrating courage of YOUR convictions, if you are being honest, re: wanting nuance AND not wanting military action, because you are also saying that you/we must use whatever tactics Bush uses.

THAT is what I do not get about what you've been writing here, Matt.

Are you solely giving up on nuance because you cede the fact that Bush is a black and white dude when it comes to this stuff?

See - I stand by my hope for the use and success of nuance because it is what I believe in and will fight for as a method, except in the last resort. 

Even you've written here that we are not at that point:

"While national security experts I know aren't concerned at this moment, Juan Cole blogged about a PR rollout of an Iran war this fall, and noted some correspondence from a friend talking about what he heard at a right-wing think tank."

So, I just don't understand why you say, have the courage of your convictions, that you believe in nuance BUT since Bush does it, you're going to do it too (re: being black and white about this).

That makes no sense to me.


argument (4.00 / 3)
I'm making the point that Bush has created a binary world where any support of demagoguery of Iran, even if done for good reasons, increases the leverage of Bush and his capacity for military action.  Obama knows this.  His supporters know this.  That's why when pushed, they come back to 'well Iran is a danger' rather than making the flacid and transparently nonsensical idea that Obama is trying to prevent war by ratcheting up rhetoric.

[ Parent ]
Bush didn't create a binary world (0.00 / 0)
Others, like PNAC, have been working on it for a long time. We'll have to be careful even with a Democratic president, because as we've seen with Iraq War proponents and Bill Clinton, rhetorical saber-rattling and symbolic acts can be used as justification for aggression later on down the road.

Join us at the Missouri community blog Show Me Progress!

[ Parent ]
But what if you -do- (4.00 / 1)
agree that Iran is a dangerous country that poses massive threats to the US in the Middle East?

Do you refrain from every admitting this? Do you admit this only -after- you provide a framework which you hope counters Bush's 'binary' one?

For the record, I don't think Iran is such a looming threat. In fact, one way I'd like to see our candidates fight back against this is by attacking instead of always defending: "You focus on Iran and ignore the greater threat of loose nukes. Why is that? Do you really think that loose nukes aren't a danger? Is Iran a greater threat than our lack of port security? Do you feel that Iran poses a greater threat than the debacle we've created in Iraq?"

Frankly, if people are going to be running around saying how 'great' or 'dangerous' a threat is, I think we deserve to see a prioritized list of 'threats'. North Korea? The Iraq Debacle? Global Warming? Iran? Undocumented immigrants? Al Queda? A new pandemic? Gay marriage?

Hm. As often with Matt, I start posting an objection then think by the time I finish, I agree.


[ Parent ]
US dominance (4.00 / 1)
There are NO real threats -- except US dependence on military force to rule the world while neglecting our infrastructure, human and material, and letting others invent new patterns of commerce and international relationships.

The empire is crashing and our elites haven't noticed because they and their cronies sell spiffy, flashy, useless military solutions and hardware.

If we don't take down the planet, US dominance is so over. The rest of the world holds its breath to see whether it will survive the crash.

None of the candidates address any of this.

Can it happen here?


[ Parent ]
No real threats? (0.00 / 0)
I want to live where you do.

[ Parent ]
Exaggerated fears are a con (0.00 / 0)
Friend -- you may have heard that we once had a very good Democratic president who understood this when the European world seemed at risk of fascism. "We have nothing to fear but fear itself."

Can it happen here?

[ Parent ]
OK - but (0.00 / 0)
You knew the but would be there.

Here's the but:

It's not rhetoric if it's true, no matter who speaks the words.  That's why the either/or logic is so difficult to swallow or embrace for even those of us who do not want military action either.

If you support nuance, why isn't an effort or initiative crafted that embraces both the truth in the danger, without the rhetoric of its existence, ALONG WITH what must be done to neutralize the rhetoric and force pursuit of non-military action?

With the ears that you have, and the courage you speak of, that is what I would hope to see.

Why isn't that the path - why have you embraced the binary world instead?


[ Parent ]
There's a time and place (0.00 / 0)
"...embraces both the truth... without the rhetoric...along with... and force pursuit..."
Clearly you support rhetoric. I'm totally lost amidst your desideratum.
News-flash, the vast electorate does not, repeat, does not get nuance.
Hence we have a president that people feel 'comfortable havin' a beer with' rather than a president that is long-winded and nuance-riddled. Admittedly Glenn Greenwald is far more eloquent in expressing the bipolar world we now occupy. Currently the launch of a PR campaign pushing for attacks on Iran is being laid out. Now is not the time to be amping up belligerent rhetoric. And yes, economic sanctions are indeed belligerent, as this precise goal has been espoused by war-embracing AIPAC for some time.
"Fewer and fewer companies will enter Iran. More and more will leave. Investment dollars and the technology it buys will dry up. The lifeline of a hated regime will be cut, its future imperiled."
-Former Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu

[ Parent ]
Had to look up desi..can't spell it without checking (0.00 / 0)
Desideratum (small screen - had to scroll up to see)

The vast electorate doesn't read Open Left, or blogs for that matter.  And those of us who blog are fine with that.

So you are saying that we should only craft what can be consumed by the vast electorate?

I don't buy that.  Again - that's a cop-out for not trying to craft an approach that embraces nuance.

Whenever I ask someone to explain something to me, no matter what it is, and they tell me, "It's complicated," I ususally say, "No it's not.  You just don't want to take the time to explain it."


[ Parent ]
The title alone of his OP-ED is antagonistic (0.00 / 0)
I have been nuanced in specifying this particular topic. Amping up belligerence toward Iran. I have in no way endorsed a flat-out 'dumbing-down' of issues whatsoever. That retort is a cop-out because, ultimately, I fail to totally agree with your apparent preferred candidate. On this issue nuance is not helping. Especially when the nuance is little else but an AIPAC talking point. Mr. Obama's editorial will not be gobbled up by blogosphere wonks as much as pitched to the vast electorate. (Courtesy The NY Daily News)

[ Parent ]
Preferred candidate? oy (0.00 / 0)
P.8.n:

How on Earth do you know whom I prefer?  Sheesh. I don't even know who I prefer.  Why don't you at least ask me before speculating? I've not even read Obama's oped and I don't expect to.

I don't really care what's in his op-ed - my questions here have nothing to do with him but rather with the  binary approach (I like that descriptor, I admit, from Stoller) being taken on the issue and the segregating of the so-called Bush Dogs.  That's what I've been asking about from the beginning (at least the beginning of when I started asking questions).

If you want to know who I support, just ask. Don't assume. No wonder you have a thing against nuance.


[ Parent ]
Nuance... not so much (0.00 / 0)
Ironically it's my 'skill' at nuance that keeps this particular topic going. I guess nuance has it's downside, huh?
I qualified my guess with an 'apparent'. But, dang if I didn't strike a nerve.
Incidentally it's fascinating that you are so ardently focused on an issue regarding an Op-Ed you failed to read.
I thought you might be an Obama supporter ('apparently') as this topic has ired a great many Obama supporters. The original post garnered how many comments? 40+? That far exceeds what I've typically found here. I'm rather sick of campaign ops using the blogosphere to push their candidates.
Apparently I guessed wrong, my bad. My 'thing' regarding nuance (on this specific topic) couldn't be highlighted more by the continuing misunderstandings that result from my nuance: I don't support amping up belligerent rhetoric (talking points) regarding Iran in the midst of escalating tensions.

As far as the binary approach check out Glenn Greenwald. He's written a book discussing that topic here. He is far far (exceedingly) better at expressing himself than I (apparently) am.


[ Parent ]
Eek Cato - do I have to? (0.00 / 0)
Based on your reasonable tone in this comment just above, I will check it out.  But I'm usually not a Cato fan.

Seriously - I've not followed the nuance angle or entered it or adhere to it because of anything written here or related to Obama - got it all on my little own (and partly as a result of being based in Ohio, where we've expressed some, um, dissatisfaction with the Bush Dog approach).

My questions/debate here is really just more of my attempt to better understand why anyone would choose the binary view and craft an approach that caters to that view, rather than embrace the nuance. I think voters can handle the nuance; and if we're all so smart, I'd think we could come up with a simple enough approach that embraces it too.


[ Parent ]
I dig nuance (0.00 / 0)
despite my inability to use it. It is in this specific topic, Iran, that I don't dig nuance. In this way, nuance plays against progressive ideals. It is counterproductive. I know nuance is the spice of life. The world is far from black/white, good/evil. Bush has exploited the good/evil binary view and the media has been conveniently enabling. In this context, I fear Mr. Obama has opened himself up to be exploited by this administration and the corporate media. I don't like that prospect. I don't like the triangulation efforts employed by Beltway types. And reading the hyping of a military strike on Iran makes me very, very disgusted.
Yeah Cato scared me at first as well. However for the ever eloquent and earnest Mr. Greenwald I made an exception.

[ Parent ]
FYI be sure to read the front page stories on the NYT (0.00 / 0)
About Florida's Tim Mahoney and TN's Lamar Alexander. With no intonation whatsoever, what do you want from these elected representatives?  Who should we really be asking to stop what they're doing - aren't the folks fingered as the ones taking quotes out of context, and thereby diluting the nuance, responsible for at least some of the trouble with getting a withdrawal from Iraq and stopping any march progressing toward military action in Iran?

That's part of where my focus is, I know.


[ Parent ]
Our leading presidential candidates ... (0.00 / 0)
... have a national visibility and their remarks inspire debate in a way that other politicians don't.

Full Court Press!  http://www.openleft.com/showDi...

[ Parent ]
That's fair (0.00 / 0)
But we have to learn to live with what we can and cannot control - anyone ever think about how much they hate to be controlled? I have to imagine these leading candidates get upset with it after a while, no?  Doesn't mean we stop trying, but just something to think about.  There's a breaking point for all of us.

[ Parent ]
You are blurring two issues (4.00 / 6)
Our fight against George Bush is separate from the approach we, as a populace and those who speak for us, should take with Iran.  What is truly dangerous is to think our foreign policy should be dictated either by the neo-cons or totally in reaction to what we think they might do.  You say:


If you support Obama or Space in their criticism of Iran as a dangerous threat, then you are effectively supporting the use of American military force in Iran.  That's not the way I want it.  I'd like nuance in our foreign policy discussions...

That is blatantly false, and in fact the opposite could be postulated as well with as much truth.  If you don't support a nuanced approach you are effectively supporting a Bush invasion.  Your point is the Neocons can twist Obama's nuanced criticism, well they can also twist your opposition by saying we can't fear doing what is needed our of a fear of another Iraq - sort of a perverse rendition of the only thing to fear is fear itself.  If neither nuance nor the type of opposition you call for have anything to do with invasion, then it is just as wrong to draw a connecting line from one as it is from the other. 

This article is just like the other one, simply an attack on Obama in sheep's clothing.  And worse it calls for our candidates not to articulate their views on foreign policy and instead simply give criticism of the present administration. Like in his straight talk about Pakistan, we need to hear from all the candidates what foreign policy will look like in their administration without calculation of how that might be twisted by the Bushies.  Our job is to reign in Bush, not restrict the speech of those who seek to become our next President.  For me, it is those who would follow your line of thinking that we should be wary of because they offer us no insight to what might truly follow while at the same time give us nothing but the false impression of affecting an Administration which follows absolutely nothing but their own agenda and listens to no one and disregards any criticism. 


yes (0.00 / 0)
It is a criticism of Obama, but I think you're really cutting him way too much slack.  He is arguing that Iran should be a target of US aggression, though not a military attack. 

It's not just 'a framing' issue, he's also just flat-out wrong, and in the current environment, dangerously so.  Iran is not and should not be a target.


[ Parent ]
This is interesting. (0.00 / 0)
Why is divesting from Iran's oil industry flat out wrong? And why do you believe it constitutes an act of aggression?

I really mean that as a question. I know very little about it.


[ Parent ]
It's hard to unravel, but I'll give it a start (4.00 / 3)
Issues:

Iran is a theocracy, and is very oppressive to women.
Iran is modernizing and attempting to enter the 20th (no typo) century.
The claim that Iran wants to annihilate Israel is bullshit.  The Soviet Union is gone, but Russia remains.  Iran is ambitious.

Israel is a Zionist state with mucho nukes who threatens to use them.
Why is it that it's so wrong for others to develop them in the absence of total nuclear disarmament?
Israel occupies Palestine, invades Lebanon, and is a more or less willing tool of the neocons, pressing the U.S. to take action against Iran.

The U.S. wants access to Iranian oil, as do Russia and China.

The U.S. is the clear aggressor in Iraq, baldly asserting it's right to reshape the Middle East as it wishes.
The U.S. is openly setting up Iran as the next Iraq, and taking outrageous actions against Iranians in Iraq at the behest of the Iraqi government.
The Beltway assumption is that campaigning against Iran is proper and legitimate, the campaign is on, and the only question is when (yes when, not whether) to apply military force.

Obama's remarks support participation in this campaign, while being tactically less aggressive.

In this context, Obama's remarks can only be seen as throwing MORE gasoline on the fire.

You can't get anywhere by asking "sanctions against Iran, yes or no?" in isolation from all these other issues.  We have to break out of the entire dynamic outlined above.

For a mere beginning, I would suggest:

Get the hell out of Iraq, and cut the rhetoric about the Iranian menace.
Get AIPAC the hell out of the U.S.
Announce to the world that we are faced with an unholy mess, and we need to start over from a general position of non-aggression.
Announce to the world that Israel-Palestine must have a just settlement.
Call for U.N. intervention as a backup, and call for broad negotiations including all partners.

And then what, you might ask?  That's just easy talk?  Right.  Guilty.  But the key is to break out of the current framework we are trapped in, and sanctions do not help.  Is what I suggest politically feasible?  No.  Is universal healthcare political feasible?  Not fully.  Is rebuilding America's infrastructure by stripping the military budget?  No.

The point is that we have to start calling for what is right, not what is feasible, because only by doing that can we start winning people over to what is right.  Will our candidates do the politically feasible?  Of course.  Like the scorpion that's what they do.  But we're not them and it has to start somewhere.

Full Court Press!  http://www.openleft.com/showDi...


[ Parent ]
Not bad but (4.00 / 1)
I don't buy the stuff about AIPAC and Israel being willing tools - they do plenty on their own initiative - but that's a whole nother thread. Even with all the money and ears, I think people overplay their emotional anger at the group (which I share) and blow it out of proportion.  IMHO - I know many people here probably won't share that. So it goes.

Otherwise - I would ask you, Jeff, don't you think that what is determined to be "politically feasible" actually comes from  what the voters, what we indicate is what we will or won't accept?

From that standpoint, then, telling any and all candidates that they must support withdrawal and they must support all avenues with Iran that exclude military action would seem to be what we need to do (and what I thought the Bush Dog effort is trying to do, though maybe more extreme than I'm saying it) - we need to make candidates FEEL that what we want is, by definition, what is politically feasible, yes?

I'm arguing here that I'd PREFER to see that position involve the nuance, as somewhat portrayed in what you just wrote above, versus the binary view of being with us or against us. That's all.


[ Parent ]
Feasibility cuts 2 ways (0.00 / 0)
One element of convincing a candidate that a position is feasible is to argue that it is more popular than they think.  That you do by pushing for it and getting more support.

The other element is to let them know that if they don't take a certain position, people that they are counting on to support them will in fact not support them.  Thus Democratic cowardice on Iraq funding cost them a lot of support.

Let me make this clear.  I will not support ANY candidate who supports military action against Iran.  You might say, then I could cost the Democrats the White House.  I reply, if the Dem candidate supports war with Iran, then that candidate could cost the Democrats the White House.  You count on my folding?  Nope.  Sorry, I hold the moral high ground.  My action is only one vote.  The candidate's vote would be millions of votes.

Full Court Press!  http://www.openleft.com/showDi...


[ Parent ]
But I agree (0.00 / 0)
(Though I would never do the first thing you describe - argue something is more popular than it is - that's deceptive - I don't care what ends it meets.)

And I'm sure many others do too: I am not going to be voting for someone whose platform includes military action against Iran under the current circumstances.

But I've lived through experiencing how my feelings changed in the summer of 2007 as I saw the bloodshed in Lebanon and Israel.  Again - for another post I'm sure, but for the first time ever, with great physical pain, I felt compelled to not reject actions that in the past I would have derided and rejected without any doubt.

You have to vote your conscience - if the result is losing the White House, then you've committed to that possibility in having made the prior choice.  I wouldn't argue with you over that.

But isn't what we all want, here, to fashion an approach that accomplishes as many goals as possible?  Again - I fail to see how a binary view can get us there.

But hey - that's why I read what's being written here and elsewhere - I'm trying to understand how it is that others think it can work.  I'm obviously not convinced.


[ Parent ]
Read me again! (0.00 / 0)
I said, "One element of convincing a candidate that a position is feasible is to argue that it is more popular than they think."  Not "more popular than it is."

We are plagued by Democrats voting over and over for positions to the right of their constituencies.

On another note, I live in New Jersey and watched the World Trade Center burn, watched the cloud of smoke for what seemed to be weeks.  At that moment, I had warm feelings for Giuliani.  I got over it.

Full Court Press!  http://www.openleft.com/showDi...


[ Parent ]
Corrected (0.00 / 0)
Thank you re: more popular than they THINK not more popular than it IS. Got it.  Multi-tasking/being non-binary too much.

I appreciate the WTC reference - my brother worked in One Battery Plaza and was there that day.  He finally moved to a job in midtown but I visited him in his Battery One office before he moved. Two offices from the window that looks over the WTC site - they watched it.  I never realized, being in Ohio, having seen it on TV, how the plane came from the Southwest into the second tower.  In the clips, it always was coming in from the right.

Anyway - I understand what you mean.  We do change depending on what's going on.  But you are right - we shouldn't let that alter what we see as an ultimate goal.

I don't support voting over and over for positions to the right of their constituencies.  But being in Ohio, one of the things we've been saying is that some of these Dems have constituencies that are, by nature, to the right of almost any Dem.  What do we expect - what should we expect?  That's what we've been asking - and not giving one, definitive answer.

Last thing - I blogged about how ODP chair Chris Redfern has identified Zack Space, who is on the Bush Dog list, as one of the five people to know in Ohio - the others being Redfern's wife, Ohio House Speaker and Republican, Jon Husted, lawyer Jim Friedman and US Sen. Sherrod Brown.  See here.

(not sure of linking policy - if I'm not supposed to link back to that reference on my blog, I'll delete it or it can be deleted)

How do you square that with Space being a Bush Dog?  What would you have Ohio Dems think/do/say? Redfern's credited with piloting a lot of Dems into state and statewide office.  Ohio is poised to really turn blue.  And he names Space as one of five to know.

Translate that in the Bush Dog context.  (That's not a challenge, that's an "okay - so now what would you say" inquiry)


[ Parent ]
Game, set, match. (4.00 / 3)
Obama and HIlary are just different versions of Bush in their approach which basically consists of 'America is great, America can do what it wants, America makes the rules.'

Well, that's not true anymore and the reasons it's not are many but chief among those reasons is the indisputable fact that America has incompetent fascists running it.  The rest of the world realized this some time ago. As you would expect it is taking a little longer for the citizenry to come to grips with this fact.

The arguments I hear from Obama and The Hill, and their supporters, is how they would be 'competent' Fascists. That's what 'economic sanctions' instead of useless bombing raids on Iran amount to.

Neither will work. Let me repeat that neither of these tactics will work to achieve whatever vague and illusory goals they  have set for us mere citizens to approve in our relationship with Iran and the fact that Obamillary don't seem to get this is proof that they are not what we need in the White House.

It's past time to wake up from American exceptionalism and use the very real power we still have to work for peace in the Middle-East instead of treating it like our personal sandbox. That didn't work for the British, far more competent empire administrators than we, and it's not going to work for us.

So, if you want more of the same by all means support Obamillary and keep attacking Matt for his attempts to inject some intelligent and different points of view into the festering mess that is American politics today.

Me, I will work for more progressive representatives who will understand that the era when America can do whatever it pleases without blowback is over.

I would have thought that 9/11 would have demonstrated that without much question.

But apparently not.

Peace, Health and Prosperity for Everyone.


[ Parent ]
"When you criticize one of the Dem presidential candidates... (0.00 / 0)
we get that candidate's campaign people"
by: jeffroby @ Mon Sep 03, 2007 at 08:49:22 AM EDT

and it begins!


well said Stoller (4.00 / 3)
Democrats are unwilling to stop because of Bush Dogs like Zack Space and power centers like AIPAC.

recently I have come to wonder if the House of Saud isn't playing a role in this. They own a big chunk of Disney and NewsCorp. Yaslem bin Laden owns a big chunk of GE. Through the mutual funds they invest in they own large chunks or our media and indeed our economy. They have benefited from higher oil prices and would like to Iran cut down to size. Of course all the war has the effect of further destablizing their society, but you would have to have a clue to understand that, and I am not sure the House of Saud has a clue.

But you are dead on that the Democrats have completely failed to take any meaningful steps to head off a disasterous war. If this happens the international repercussions will be extremely serious. To say nothing of the death of millions or innocent Iranians.


What Happened to Obama's "I Will Talk With Iran?" (0.00 / 0)
Why is Obama talking on one hand of trying to work with the Iranians and on the other hand saying Iran is the biggest threat to the US?  It sounds like Obama is playing political games.  Is war with Iran what we can expect if Obama is to become president, that is if Bush has not already bombed Iran.  For myself I am tired of the US being at war and I think there are better uses for our money than spending it on making the defense industry richer.  Maybe spending money on bridges and roads, making sure all americans have health care. 

a stunningly false comparison happened... (4.00 / 1)
Sanctions on such regimes are not an exceptional measure, and using them does not preclude efforts to change the diplomatic approach taken by the Bush administration. When Obama said he would talk with antagonistic foreign leaders he was not declaring himself to be a dove, and when he recommends encouraging Iranian compliance with international pressure using sanctions, he's not being a hawk. Nuance in international politics exists whether or not George Bush would prefer a stark dichotomy.

[ Parent ]
Do you see hypocrisy? (0.00 / 0)
You said:

"My bottom line, and I think the reason the liberal blogs have a market of readers, is honesty in politics." 

I AGREE! HONESTY! Wonderful!

"If you support Obama or Space in their criticism of Iran as a dangerous threat, then you are effectively supporting the use of American military force in Iran.  That's not the way I want it." 

OK, so that's your view. Fair enough. I just disagree.

"I'd like nuance in our foreign policy discussions, and I sympathize with those who want engagement with Iran backed up by bluster.  The problem is, Bush said 'you're either with us or against us', and he meant it.  He will use all demonization of Iran as an excuse to attack.  That's just his track record, and we shouldn't pretend otherwise."

Do you see the hypocrisy there? YOU ARE ARGUING THAT WE SHOULD BE HONEST WITH EACH OTHER ABOUT THE NEED TO BE DISHONEST WITH THE AMERICAN PEOPLE?
Maybe you can justify this by distinguishing between the two audiences. So basically, its nuance and honesty for us sophisticated blogger types, but for the average voter we have to dishonestly divide the world into black and white, with us or against-us, etc. etc.. THIS IS EXACTLY the kind of politics that Obama opposes, and that is why I support him. He believes in more honesty for the american people, on Pakistan, on Iran, on finding Bin Laden.


Not only "NOT an existential threat," but... (4.00 / 1)
As best as I can tell, Iran is far from a cohesively organized, monolithically directed state.  Ahmadinejad came into power in part because the U.S. botched its relations with Iran in the run up to the election, and in part because of domestic political concerns which have little to do with the Iranian popular support for his foreign policy or strategic ambitions, such as they are.  The U.S. has only strengthened his position by sabre rattling, and allowing him to stand against a real enemy of the Iranian people.

While Iran may back people we don't like, including people who act very badly towards others, internal fractures within Iran seem likely to hobble its potential as a longer-term threat to the region.  That is, unless we keep making it into a bogey man, and threatening the existence of its regime.  The best way to bring about change in Iran's external behavior would be to deny Ahmadinejad his external enemy, and let internal Iranian politics take its course.  It may not soon be the pluralistic democracy we would try to impose upon it, but it isn't going to be that in any case.  But it would be a lot less threatening to our interests if we would simply acknowledge the right of its government to exist.

Obama apparently can't see or accurately describe the complexities of Iran's internal situation, nor does he seem to understand that we need to back off from interference with its internal politics.  This seems to me to be a serious weakness in his foreign policy understanding.  It also, as Matt suggests, seems to show bad instincts/reflexes regarding how we treat other nations in general, and how we talk about how we treat other nations.  The Democrats don't need to play the "we're more muscular than you" game; we need to find ways to argue successfully that a non-belligerent, diplomatic foreign policy backed by force as a very last resort is in our long-term best interest.  Obama seems to want to continue to show he's no wimp, when our main task is to confront the bullies as such.

Ump.


this is inherently contradictory... (0.00 / 0)

In other words, have the courage of your convictions.  You do not need to support everything Obama says to support Obama.  You can say 'he went over the top here, but I like him anyway'.  That would at least acknowledge the fundamental dynamics of the situation.  But if you assert that Iran is a dangerous country that poses massive threats to the US in the Middle East or if you support Obama in making that assertion, then you are supporting an attack and making it more likely.  If you are critical of this line of rhetoric, then you are against an attack and are making it less likely.  I wish there were a third option, but it's just a cheap excuse for irresponsibility to pretend otherwise.  Bush doesn't do nuance, and I'm not sure why we haven't all learned this yet.

"Have the courage of your convictions, because Bush has changed their meaning." I don't accept that, Matt, and you shouldn't be either, because Bush's success in false dichotomy is wholly dependent upon the public's acceptance of those rules of dialogue.

These statements from Obama do not exist in isolation from his remarks elsewhere...


As starting points, the world must prevent Iran from acquiring nuclear weapons and work to eliminate North Korea's nuclear weapons program. If America does not lead, these two nations could trigger regional arms races that could accelerate nuclear proliferation on a global scale and create dangerous nuclear flashpoints. In pursuit of this goal, we must never take the military option off the table. But our first line of offense here must be sustained, direct and aggressive diplomacy. For North Korea, that means ensuring the full implementation of the recent agreement. For Iran, it means getting the UN Security Council, Europe, and the Gulf States to join with us in ratcheting up the economic pressure.

Remarks at Chicago Council on Global Affairs

Emphasis added.

Obama has been clear in presenting diplomatic and economic measures foremost in our dealings in Iran, measures similar to those Bush felt the need to declare ineffective in the prelude to the war with Iraq. Fostering diplomatic and economic pressure does not aid Bush in any effort to suggest that Iran is an imminent threat that warrants immediate military intervention in contrast to diplomatic measures. The more support that is given to diplomacy and economics, the greater time in discretion is demanded of Bush.

The president doesn't need Obama claiming Iran is a threat- he's heard that claim from many avenues on either side of this issue. He does need an endorsement of military action as a necessary step, and he hasn't recieved that.


Heaven Forbid! (0.00 / 0)
If you support Obama or Space in their criticism of Iran as a dangerous threat, then you are effectively supporting the use of American military force in Iran.

That our "political leaders" should ever learn anything.

And heavern forbid that we should criticize them for learning nothing.

More kool-aid?

Ours is soooo much better!

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


Amen (0.00 / 0)
Now, I'm very worried about a possible attack on Iran.

The only way that we will attack Iran is if Democratic elites offer Bush the legitimacy to do so.

My bottom line, and I think the reason the liberal blogs have a market of readers, is honesty in politics.

I'm extremely worried about Iran. These people are crazy.

Banned for posting five straight diaries.


Another Missing the Point Piece, Matt? (4.00 / 1)
The Resolution for War passed in October 2002 by Reps and compliant Dems needs to be revisited.  It is very broad and does not restrict the conflict to Iraq--he!!, the thing doesn't even have an end date.  Bush can validly argue that he has all of the authorization he needs.  Hillary--and good for her!--publicly has said that this resolution does not give authority for war with Iran and is now on record--good for her!--that the 2002 resolution needs to be done away with (not likely, but because of her the Dems are on record as opposing it's use to justify Congressional approval of war with Iran.

Iran has already put themselves in the crosshairs of the international community.  Their 18-year secrecy of developing nuclear technology was stumbled upon.  Now that very secrecy should make all of us ponder instead of simply accepting Iran's "word" now that their intent was peaceful.  Yeah, right.  Even though Iran could ratchet down this whole thing by simply allowing inspections, they have repeatedly refused to do so.  As a result, there is a UN resolution calling for sanctions against Iran with those sanctions escalating as time passes.  The goal, shared in the international community, is to prevent Iran from obtaining nuclear weaponry.  Bush has placed sanctions to ban nuclear technology--as if that is a sanction with teeth.

I'll spell it out for you, Matt.  Iraq's inspections equals Iran's sanctions.  Since Iran is still being mulish, there is a need to point out that Bush HAS NOT EXHAUSTED ALL POSSIBILITIES vis-a-vis Iran.  Get it?

Now we add to this what Bush and his administration have been getting quite vocal about recently--declare an Iran group as terrorists.  If done, this fits neatly into giving Bush a reason for war action against Iran because he has the damned resolution giving him that authority.  Hillary has been public about this resolution NOT giving Bush this authority.  Now Obama has publicly pointed out that Bush has not exhausted the sanctions--and has even held up a bipartisan bill opposing additional sanctions on Iran--and one that was overwhelmingly approved of in the House.

This is all developing into a parallel with this administration's reasons for invading Iraq.  Remember that sales job and recognize what the situation with Iran is developing into.  It is a very  dangerous situation with this administration apparently building a case for war against Iran.

Although I could get snarky about where our other Dem candidates are in this, I will pass on it.  Point out where I'm wrong, Matt. 


[ Parent ]
Dems are crazy not Iranians (0.00 / 0)
Dems are crazy not Iranians.

Just want to be clear.

Banned for posting five straight diaries.


[ Parent ]
policy difference (4.00 / 1)
I think the thing I don't like about these types of criticisms is that they attempt to pretend that a difference in opinion means that your opponent is hypocritical, cowardly, etc.

Arguing that Obama's unwillingness to lie about his beliefs is a character flaw just makes you sound like an isolationist Republican.


Obama's beliefs (0.00 / 0)
Obama is free to express his beliefs.
I don't agree with what he is saying.

[ Parent ]
Good post (4.00 / 1)
On MyDD by Jonathan Singer about this.

http://mydd.com/stor...

It's pretty much where I am. There are points that could be made that this is a lead in to war. But divestment and engagement has usually been the progressive alternative. And I think that is what Obama is calling for.

Is his framing not the best? Sure. But I care about policy not framing.

I think this bill is totally reasonable. I don't think it makes Obama a war monger. I do think Iran is a dangerous country. I don't think you could really argue against that. But there are many other dangerous country's in the world, including our own. That doesn't mean we need to bomb them too.

I am advocating divestment and diplomacy. It doesn't make me a  Iran war supporter and it doesn't make me a war monger.

You're one of my favorite bloggers Matt but frankly with that last line you're sounding like a Beltway pudit who tells the masses what they should and shouldn't do or what they should or shouldn't believe.

John McCain: Beacuse lobbyists should have more power


Singer Has It Right (0.00 / 0)
I agree with Jonathan Singer.  I am not for invading Iran.  However, sanctions have generally been an alternative to war and have been used effectively to get countries to change their behavior.  South Africa and Apartheid anyone????  They worked pretty well there.  They did a pretty good job of containing Saddam too before Bush decided to invade Iraq and create today's mess.

I also think that in 2007 to say that Obama's support of a sanctions bill gives Bush ammunition is just false.  This is not 2002 - Bush has about a 30% approval rating and Obama gets close to the media coverage as Bush does these days. 

If Bush were to pull such a stunt, Obama could easily get on TV and debunk it.  Now if you don't like Obama's stand on the issue, that's fine but putting up strawmen like Bush using it to his advantage is a little troubling and not especially likely.


[ Parent ]
Sanctions don't always work... (0.00 / 0)
A study of sanctions done from 1914 to 1990 demonstrated that economic sanctions worked in 40 out of 115 times, which is not even half of the time.  Sanctions did not work in Iraq, interestingly enough in 1996 Representative Roth argued against the Iran & Libya Sanctions act of 1996 pointing out the many times sanctions have not worked.


We don't remember days only moments...

[ Parent ]
sanctions (0.00 / 0)
Don't work all the time. I never claimed that.

But they work better then war. Give me a study where war "worked" more then sanctions.

John McCain: Beacuse lobbyists should have more power


[ Parent ]
Get Real (4.00 / 3)
Any congressperson, or candidate for any national office (or netroots blogger/reader) who is not screaming to the rafters about the president's coming attack on Iran is enabling a war with Iran. We cannot mince words or parse language with this one. It is more important than any other issue, and it is very close upon us. Like that old joke, anyone who is not hysterical with fear and alarm has not grasped the seriousness of the situation.

Seriously (0.00 / 0)
Americans are crazy.

Banned for posting five straight diaries.

[ Parent ]
American Are Not Crazy, Just Stupid (0.00 / 0)
Stupid for electing crazy leaders. I am not one to trust my gut instinct over reasonable explanations and proofs, but after six years of watching my worst fears come true, it seems not at all far fetched that this one will too, and it's the worst of the worst. At the very least, it entails an unspeakable scale of death and injury, something our insane leadership cares nothing about.

[ Parent ]
Sing it Sister! (0.00 / 0)
Anyone who still wonders how Bush marched a seemingly rational populace into the shameful debacle that is Iraq should be assigned reading some of the comments in reaction to Stoller's two very important posts. While we ponder the real or imagined nuance to be found in Obama's rather worthless op-ed, Bush and company enjoy a small gift of fear-mongering rhetoric handed to them by a top tier Democratic presidential candidate (who also happens to be a member of the body with the power to stop what could very well be an even deeper descent into hell).

[ Parent ]
USER MENU

Open Left Campaigns

SEARCH

   

Advanced Search

QUICK HITS
STATE BLOGS
Powered by: SoapBlox