Yes, Josh, Republicans REALLY ARE As Dumb As Dirt...But...

by: Paul Rosenberg

Sat Feb 14, 2009 at 19:57


I wish I had a better read on Josh Marshall, I really do.  Can he possibly be so naive that GOP stupidity still surprises him? I'd like to think not, believing he's in perpetual Claude Raines mode.  But if so, he does it so well, he should be in show biz, not politics:

Not So Smart

It pains me to say this. But Sen. John Cornyn doesn't seem to be too bright. Cornyn was just on MSNBC explaining that spending in a severe economic downturn doesn't make sense and should be replaced by tax cuts since individuals can spend money "more efficiently" than government. I guess he doesn't get that the whole point of a stimulus bill is that in a severe recession individuals -- acting on rationale individual economic motives -- aren't spending. And only government, as a policy decision, can spend at a high rate notwithstanding the state of the economy.

He also claimed a 3x multiplier for tax cuts, which I don't think anyone believes. But I'm more interested in his point about the relative efficiency of private vs. public sector spending since it seemed to show that he doesn't understand what a recession, let alone a severe recession (which has qualitatively different dynamics), even is.

I know there are contrary theories of how economies work. But not grappling with the high level of risk in the economy that makes businesses and people unwilling to spend ... not sure you can enter the conversation without getting that.

Besides, he got MSNBC to give him face time for shoveling this shit, so who, exactly is the really dumb one, anyway, Josh?

Paul Rosenberg :: Yes, Josh, Republicans REALLY ARE As Dumb As Dirt...But...
This goes back to my diary series, "The Political Duality Of Rep and Dem".  In the intro diary, I wrote:

The Basic Duality

(A) Democrats are reality-based when it comes to policies, and totally out to lunch when it comes to winning elections, and politicking in general.

(B) But Republicans are totally out to lunch when it comes to policies, and as reality-based as it gets when it comes to winning elections, and politicking in general.

Actually, that's just a first approximation.  It's actually more rigorous than that, which is what makes it interesting.  But that's enough to let you know the ballpark we'll be playing in, if you care to continue this exploration.

And that's exactly what's happening here.  Sure, if things continue as they are now on the political plan, the GOP is toast, and all these wild-eyed lies will do them no good whatsoever.  

But there's another scenario in which the GOP wins "big time" as one of their leading war criminals would say:  If they can only keep Obama from getting a bead on what's really going on--which he has yet to get, IMHO--then he could be in really bad shape, along with the economy, come 2010, and he could lose any chance of governing effectively for the next two years, which means things could get very ugly in 2012.

Of course, all that depends on America suffering like it hasn't suffered since the 1930s.  But so what?  Since when has that bothered the GOP?  9/11? best thing that ever happened to them this century.  And the century is still young.

What the Democrats need to do is defy all precedent and get smart about politicking.  Stop gloating about how dumb the GOP is on policy--No, wait, that's asking too much, who can give up laughs like that?  Okay, gloat faster, and fully enjoy it, so that then you can get back to figuring out how the hell you're going to beat those dumb SOBs into the ground so deep that down seems like up to them.


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Was there a point to this diary... (4.00 / 3)
...other than attacking Josh Marshall personally for no obvious or good reason?

Using this platform to attack our own is beneath your usual good work, Paul.


methinks... (0.00 / 0)
....Marshall was being a tad bit ironic.

[ Parent ]
Yes, Probably, But (0.00 / 0)
One tad or two?  How big a tad?  A tad or a ted?

So many questions, so little time.

The ambiguities grow exponentially.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Good Lord! (4.00 / 2)
I'm not attacking Josh.  I'm using him as a foil.

Like Watson and Holmes.  Or Cagney and Lacey.  Or Buffy and Willow.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Josh Marshall is a hack. (4.00 / 1)
Sorry to break the news.

And don't ask about Santa. Trust me, you don't want to know.


[ Parent ]
You know... (4.00 / 2)
I think all these prognosticators who are predicting that the Dems are in trouble in 2010 if the economy does not improve underestimate how much the voting public really hates George W. Bush and how much he is blamed for the current economic situation. The Republicans will never be able to blame Chris Dodd, Barney Frank, and Barack Obama for the current crisis. The public will always blame Bush and the Republicans.

The Democrats used Herbert Hoover to win elections and make Republican economic ideas seem laughable for fifty years. This seems like it will be very similar.  


Well, I Certainly Agree That's What SHOULD Happen (4.00 / 8)
In fact, it's probably time for the GOP to fold up its tent, like the Whigs and the Federalists before it.

But this bipartisan BS really has me worried.  I really wish I felt confident about where Obama is headed, but there've been too many mixed messages for me to feel complacent.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Obama is the first guy... (0.00 / 0)
to say that this is George Bush's economic mess. How many times in the press conference alone did he mention inheriting huge deficits and that we can't rely on the failed policies of the past?

The point is that the Democrats will not be held responsible if our economic situation isn't perfectly rosy in 2010. The public knows who started this mess and who is to blame.

I laugh when I hear Republicans cheering for Obama's failure--as if the public is going to trust them any time soon.

Republicans went 24 years without winning a Presidential election the last time they screwed up the economy this badly, and they could only win when they nominated a nonpartisan War Hero (c). Obama's going to be given a lot of slack here. The Republicans are going to spend quite a bit of time in the wilderness.  


[ Parent ]
You don't play 12th Dimensional Jiu-Jitsu chess, do you Paul? (4.00 / 1)
That's why you just don't get it.

Hah!

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton


[ Parent ]
Hey, That's 11 Dimensions! You Can't Just Go Adding Dimensions Willy-Nilly (0.00 / 0)
m-theory is very specific about such matters.  You can only have 10, 11 or 26 dimensions, and with 26, you only get Bosons and no matter. Just forces.  

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Heh, you're so 2008 (0.00 / 0)
Clearly you haven't been "clued in", as we like to call it...

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton

[ Parent ]
Complacency isn't called for... (0.00 / 0)
Having an active left wing pushing hard for preferred policy alternatives is GOOD. God knows it's worked wonders for the right wing of the Republican Party, eh?

That being said, FDR did not get it ALL right during the first Hundred Days, or throughout his presidency. Nor did Lincoln. Perfection's an impossible standard to expect anyone to hold to.

My feeling is the emphasis on "bipartisanship" is somewhat for public show- Obama must present himself as open to Republican participation, even though he knows that the Republican caucus in Congress is mostly following Rush Limbaugh down into irrelevancy. The idea is that while Congressional Republicans are pretty useless, the outreach helps with their constituents (and polling seems to indicate it does). Plus, the guy ran on a platform of reaching out across party lines- he can't turn around and demonize them the instant he goes into the White House. In essence, the past few weeks was checking off a campaign promise.

There's also the problem that thanks to the US Senate basically being tied into supermajority knots thanks to things like filibusters, unanimous consent agreements and pay-go, Obama can't GET certain things passed without having to get some amount of Republican support onboard (or, worse in some cases, Blue Dog Democrat). That's why Krguman's critique of the stimulus package in the NY Times this weekend struck me as rather ivory-tower: yes, in a perfect world run by technocrat economists instead of politicians, the stimulus package would have been better. However, we live in a world where like it or not, 90+% of the Senate Republicans and 100% of the House Republicans are such reactionaries that, had they been present at the moment of Creation, they would have voted for chaos. And, to bastardize Rumsfeld, you govern as President with the Senators and rules you have, not the ones you WISH you had.


[ Parent ]
It SHOULD Happen and Maybe It Will (0.00 / 0)
Frank Rich tonight http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02... seems to think so.  He says that "having checked the box on attempted bipartisanship, Obama can now move in for the kill."

That seems to express the view of some that Obama is playing this all for the long run, as a two-year strategy, not as a one-bill-at-a-time tactic, after which a new plan can be developed for the next bill.  Since Obama told us what he wanted in the stimulus, the House plussed it up a good bit, the Senate cut it back, and the conference restored it to just about what Obama first sought, and on his mid-February schedule, it seems we all  --  especially the Villagers -- were surprised at what was truly a huge legislative victory, and one that showed the Republicans to be out of the game.

A lot of us, especially Digby, on the left are worried that Obama is next about to bank right and put the squeeze on Social Security, imposing benefit cutbacks on the less well off while continuing to hand bailouts to the very well off.  I would not be so sure.  When he puts his "centrist" labeled but right-leaning commission together, I suspect they will find -- Oh Gosh -- the problem is not Social Security, it is our entire screwed up health care system.  We had better fix that.

While we belly-ache for a fix-it-all and fix-it-now policy, Obama is the one who has to deliver and he and Axelrod know this is going to be a two-year linked series of big battles and they are starting out now by allowing the Republicans to take themselves off the field of war.  


[ Parent ]
I'm A Superposition/Schroedingers Cat Kind Of Guy (0.00 / 0)
Frankly, I find all these theories a tad too pat for my taste.  I think there are at least two completely contradictory realities in 11 dimensions, and it's only when your get down to the last millisecond that the waveforms collapse and one reality gets realized and the other one vanishes.

Only to possibly reappear again in the next twinkling of an eye.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
SNL Just Made The Point (0.00 / 0)
Seven congressional Republicans sitting around a room led by John Boehner (Dan Ackroyd) congratulating themselves on how well they had succeed in gaining "complete political irrelevancy" that poised them to begin impeachment and an attack on the Obama girls for their sleepovers.

Brilliantly funny.


[ Parent ]
Frank RIch's column, as usual, (0.00 / 0)
is filled with his little more than his own fantastical thinking.

When the Republicans think they are winning the game, they are not thinking about the polls of Feb 2009. They are thinking about the polls of Nov 2009, and the message they are now preparing for that date.

Frank Rich -- as with so many progressive pundits -- can't think or plan that far ahead. They can't even imagine the fourth quarter in the first. That's because they think like children.

Republicans always prove to succeed at politics far, far beyond their inherent appeal. Progressives always find a way to get electoral results well below the appeal they would seem otherwise to have.

Rich provides a case study in why.  


[ Parent ]
Oops, (0.00 / 0)
meant "the polls of Nov 2010"

[ Parent ]
Herbert Hoover (0.00 / 0)
was in office until March 1933, right? And the stock market crash was in 1929. The Depression happened to reach bottom in March of 1933. What this means is that essentially all of the economic downturn was under Hoover's watch - and it was of over two and a half years duration.

Under FDR, all of the movement was up from that nadir. From the standpoint of the public, his tenure was only positive in nature (with a temporary problem in 1937 due to his attempt to bring down the deficit). It is hardly surprising that politically that would work well for him.

For Obama, however, it is likely to be quite the opposite, at least until Nov 2010. The economy is only starting to deteriorate seriously, and it is still quite dramatically on the way down. Most likely, the economy will only get worse under his watch, and stay worse until Nov 2010. If Republicans ask, are you better off now than you were when Obama and the current Congress entered office -- the question that always must be anticipated -- the answer that will quite probably be fair and accurate is: No, I am not.

Obama and the Democrats will have their own story of blame about how things got where they will be at that stage. But the Republicans will have a very plausible story to tell the American public about the failure of Obama's program. The fact that it is false may little avail.


[ Parent ]
Marshall is a bit like Steve Clemons (4.00 / 2)
I.e. "good" political insiders who more or less "get" it, but because they're still insiders (or were at one point), still suffer a bit now and then from insideritis. Clemons is much worse this way than Marshall (being or havinig been a Republican tends to do that to you), but they both have a certain head-scratching aspect to them. I think it's understandable, as it's much harder to speak or think ill of someone that you know and have worked with than if you're totally an outsider, as most bloggers are. Doesn't make it acceptable, which is where we come in, but it's still understandable. Although, I think that often, Marshall puts out what appear to be naive questions or statements not because he's sincerely asking or saying them, but as starting points for discussion, as a sort of null hypothesis.

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton

I Think You're In The Right Ballpark (0.00 / 0)
But I also think Josh has a bit of the playactor in him, too.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
I thought that that's what I was saying (0.00 / 0)
And by ballpark I hope you don't mean Pandit TARP Citi Field or Steroid A-Rod Park.

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton

[ Parent ]
Different Nuance (0.00 / 0)
You->Poker Player
Me->Playactor

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Calling my bluff, eh? (0.00 / 0)


"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton

[ Parent ]
Disappear, please (0.00 / 0)
If Republicans do go poof in the night, they will probably follow the way of the Federalists with bad governing and excess politicking (John Adams) being followed by great governing which consigned them to being first a regional party and then to the dustbin of history.

There is nothing like slavery or Whig-ism in the Republicans.  They take stands and no, nothing like it is dividing the country.  Abe Lincoln, after all, started as a Whig.  Then he moved on.


never forget (4.00 / 2)
all cons aren't stupid but all stupid people are conservative, truth really is stranger then fiction.

are democrats really that great on policy? (0.00 / 0)
On matters of economic and foreign policy, they're often pretty terrible. Over the last twenty years they've moved to the ideological center-right on these issues, which really messes with their ability to deliver any great rhetoric or follow-through.

ie, their policy failings handicap their politicking abilities.

This is particularly obvious when it comes to economic issues and Obama's economic team.  

Not to say that many Dems - and much of their base - don't have great, smart policy stances.  That's just not where the power is right now, unfortunately.


You're Absolutely Right About The Record (0.00 / 0)
But my perspective is that this all traces back to the Republican's dominance of politicking, and Dem's dumb-ass responses, thinking they can "win" politically by sacrificing sensible policy.

We could have a nice long argument about this over a beer.  But since we can't yet share drinks over the internet, I think I'll pass.  I can live with agreeing to disagree.

But first check out the diary series to see what else comes with the argument.  Even if it doesn't convince you, I think you'll find it stimulating.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
will definitely check it out (0.00 / 0)
I'll read up!  Also interesting to think about this in terms of the Axelrod v Geithner, politics v policy divide in the White House right now.


[ Parent ]
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