Progressive Confusion

by: Paul Rosenberg

Sun Feb 15, 2009 at 23:56


Note: Damn! I TRIED to get this up before David weighed in.  At least you should know that I haven't even read his diary yet.

As nautilus1700 notes in quick hits, Nate Silver has posted a response to David, which I'm certain David will respond to.  But I wanted to try and slip in first to maybe spur another branch of conversation.  I feel I've got a bit of a stake in this, since I began writing about two contrary notions of progressivism quite a ways back.

Paul Rosenberg :: Progressive Confusion
Nate writes about "two 'progressivisms'" that "share common ground on many (probably most) issues," but "are at loggerheads on some others, as has perhaps become more apparent since the election of President Obama."  He then presents this chart:

This chart can be critiqued at two levels, from within its frame (the outcome-oriented vs. process-oriented pairing seems to be flipped, as can readily be seen by comparing that with the conversation vs. action-oriented pairing) and from outside its frame: Nate naturally takes an abstract analytic approach, whereas I introduced a somewhat similar distinction in terms of historical processes, contrasting the "progressivism" of the post-60s era (which named itself in opposition to the Cold War liberals who brought us Vietnam) with the "classical progressivism" of the early 20th Century, that was a modernizing, rationalizing philosophy that existed in tension with populism, and which I went on to discuss in terms of an excellent law review article by Jack Balkin, "Populism and Progressivism as Constitutional Categories" in a couple of different diaries, "Populism & Progressivism-Pt1: Obama As Classic Progressive" and "Edward v. Obama-Cross-Wiring Populism and Progressivism".

Because my analysis derived from actually existing historical traditions, it tended to be messier than Nate's neat little chart.  One might even say that my approach was "empirical" while his is "normative"--another crosswiring, but one that connects the "inside the frame" critique with the "outside the frame" perspective.

The analysis gets messier still because it also relates to the distinction that educationaction has made repeatedly in discussing the differences between middle class and working class notions of politics, which line up most directly with Nate's pairing of "sees politics as a battle of ideas" vs. "sees politics as a battle of wills".  But educationaction put it somewhat differently: the middle class view is that it's not so much a battle at all, but more "conversational" as Nate has it in another pairing, while the working class knows it's a battle--not so much of wills, but of interests.

This is further complicated by the fact that Nate's so-called "rational progressives" tend to deny that politics is a battle at all.  Isn't that, after all, the whole point of Obama's bipartisan crusade?  In contrast, I've been going on for quite some time about politics as a battle of ideas--an idea that comes from Gramsci, just the sort that Nate goes on to warn against:

Nor do conservatives have a monopoly on bad ideas, especially when radical progressives flirt with Marxist modes of discourse.

In short, there are countless contradictions, or, to be more charitable, inconsistencies in Nate's neatly laid out little world, and while I totally share his impulse to make neat little models (I too have a math background, though my skills have grown embarrasingly rusty compared to what they were, haven't solved a diffy-Q in decades) I know darned well that they are only partial mappings at best, and better thought of as tools to probe reality with in active fashion than as maps to sit back with and marvel at, as if they could actually capture the unfathomable lands to which they refer.

One final word of warning: the classical progressives fell out badly amongst themselves, with Woodrow Wilson taking the nation to war for the most noble of reasons (so he thought) and passing the worst, mot oppressive, authoritarian laws seen in America since the Alien and Sedition Acts--arguably even worse.  Eugene Debs got ten years in prison for a single speech deemed to be against the draft. Wislon's actions even launched the career of J. Edgar Hoover.  On the other side of the schism, one had Randolph Bourne who came to procliam, "War is the Health of the State"

So don't think that the classical progressives are really all that mild-mannered and rational, no matter what their neat little charts may tell you.

The messiness of history says otherwise.


Tags: , , , (All Tags)
Print Friendly View Send As Email
In the old days... (0.00 / 0)
...that would be socialism on the left and anarchism on the right. Maybe that's what Nate is talking about.

socialism and anarchism are both on the left :) (0.00 / 0)
you'd have to replace the labels you're using for this to work - like "authoritarianism" on the right and "anarchism" on the left or "socialism" on the left and "capitalism" on the right.

anywy, this debate is as endless as the shifting winds of human history capitalist world-systems :)  I suggest we all just go to politicl compass and share results over a beer / wine / non alcoholic beverage of your choice.


[ Parent ]
False dichotomy (4.00 / 6)
What I don't get is why this has to be either-or. It seems to me we need a bit of both rational thought and kick-ass populist appeal to emotions. The two need to balance each other.

Historically, of course, American liberalism has been lacking more in the populism department. Which is why we need our Sirotas. After decades of the right bashing us as elitist, I'm not sure why this is so difficult for some people to see. I think it's a knee-jerk irrational anti-populism on the part of some who think themselves to be completely rational.  


Progressives support diversity in all things... (4.00 / 5)
...except opinions.

That needs to change.  I'm tired of the pie fights between Sirota and Giordano and Silver and everyone else... Infighting will lead us nowhere.  If we don't stand together, we surely will fail.

Sirota, Silver, et al all have valid points that are worth considering... we are stronger as a result of our diversity, and demanding that one singular ideology should prevail would only weaken us.

I agree with Nate.  We should have at least some faith that our elected leaders know what they are doing.  That doesn't mean blind faith, but we should certainly not initially assume that they are "out to get us" before all the facts are in.  A little goodwill is not a bad thing.  That being said, we should be vigilant and keep pushing our priorities.  But, it's counterproductive to assume that the guys are the top are automatically our enemies...  some people just need a little push to get them where they need to be.

Now, let's end the pie fight.  Believe it or not, I think we are all on the same page, but we don't realize it.

REID: Voting against us was never part of our arrangement!
SPECTER: I am altering the deal! Pray I don't alter it any further!
REID: This deal keeps getting worse all the time!


[ Parent ]
The real issue? (4.00 / 2)
Agreed, to a certain extent. I think all of this has deteriorated into a personality conflict driven by some people who really don't like Sirota for some reason.

But I also think there is a real issue here. As Paul pointed out, this conflict between progressivism and populism has deep historical roots. Progressivism originally was (at least in part) a middle-class reformist reaction aimed as much against the twin pincers of the late 19th/early 20th century socialist and agrarian populist movements as it was against concentrated wealth and power. Progressives, remember, believed strongly in the efficacy of elite leadership and administration and were deeply suspicious of appeals to "the people." You can also see this conflict in the largely successful post-WWII effort to write popular front progressives out of liberal politics. It is this tradition that Silver seems to be coming from.  

The big problem with all of this from a results-oriented perspective is that, whatever its strengths, cerebral elitist liberalism makes for lousy politics. Right-wing conservatives have consistently proved this over the last 30-40 years. Successful politics requires appeal not just to people's brains, but their guts. Thus the need for at least a modicum of populism.


[ Parent ]
There is a very real point being made. (4.00 / 3)
This is not a Pie Fight in any manner, shape or form. Progress is made when the contradiction, the problem, is identified and dealt with. And only then. Progress is not made by acceptance or following or simple agreement.

If you think it is please continue to follow, but I'd be happier if you followed Paul David Chris or Senator Sanders. If you can name a thinker that has opened up the problems of the TARP, the needs of the Stimulus, the problems of process the crisis we were about to face economically, politically or electorally then follow them, but it is unnecessary to try to lead by urging people to be followers.


[ Parent ]
Fool me once. (4.00 / 5)
I had faith that Clinton, a Democrat, wouldn't screw us over with NAFTA.  I had faith that Clinton, a Democrat, wouldn't screw us over with banking deregulation.  I had faith that Clinton, a Democrat, wasn't stupid enough to screw around with an intern while in office.  I had faith that Clinton, a Democrat, wouldn't demonize woman and babies while protecting corporate welfare.  I had faith that Clinton, a Democrat, was only campaigning when he said he admired Reagan.  

"Out to get us" is kind of an extreme statement don't you think.  They aren't opposed to us as much as they are in favor of their own self-interests.  If we happen to be in their way, well too bad for us.  


[ Parent ]
I think you hit on the heart of the matter (4.00 / 1)
...a significant number of people here presume that Obama is going to be Bill Clinton.  A legitimate fear, but unfounded.  The primary should have reinforced that Obama is no Bill Clinton.  So far, he has done nothing to make anyone think that he's another Bill Clinton.  So, we as a group, have to get over our Bill Clinton PTSD.  Bill Clinton left the white house 8 years ago... He hates Obama and Obama isn't too warm on Clinton.  Let's recognize that Obama is a different person from Bill Clinton and move on from there.

And Paul and David, especially, seem to operate from the mindset that the Obama administration is secretly plotting to screw progressives over any way they can... and it is their mission to expose that secret plan.  I'm not of that mindset at all.  I think that Obama may be too cautious as a rule, but he wants to implement 90% of what we want.  It's a fundamental difference in attitude, and it's important.  If we presume Obama to be the enemy instead of a friend who needs our help, we will manage to get less accomplished and eat our own in the process, weakening our cause... as evidence, look at the recent pie fights.


REID: Voting against us was never part of our arrangement!
SPECTER: I am altering the deal! Pray I don't alter it any further!
REID: This deal keeps getting worse all the time!


[ Parent ]
But he has done something to make us think he is Clinton. (4.00 / 2)
He surrounded himself with Clintonites.  

[ Parent ]
No Pie Fight Here. And NOT On The Same Page (4.00 / 4)
Obama wants to bail out the bankers first. We want them to pay for their mistakes, not the American people.

That's a pretty fundamental disagreement.  And Obama's stance is being used by Republicans (hypocritically, of course) to try to portray themselves as the populist champions of the little guy.

From where I stand, Obama's approach is not just morally and  economically wrong, it's politically stupid as well.

So, not the same page at all.

Not even the same book.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
It's at times like this (4.00 / 4)
That I remind myself to stop saying "progressive" when what I really mean is "social democracy".

The problem here is that the term progressive got adopted by people espousing social democracy in the late 1990s to differentiate themselves from Clinton's "liberalism." Since "progressive" doesn't necessarily denote "social democracy" as Nate Silver discovered, that has enabled a lot of people who do not espouse social democracy to claim a "progressive" identity and thereby muddy the waters.

I think a lot of this is about diverging views on economic philosophy - differences that were muted during the Bush years but now are coming to the fore.


It's Messier Than That, I'm Afraid (4.00 / 7)
I've been calling myself a progressive (in some contexts, and a radical in others) since the early 70s, and I knew many others who did as well.  It's because the folks who brought us the Vietnam War called themselves "liberals".  Then in the late 80s, the DLC thought it was a good term to poach, and they went ahead and formed the "Progressive Policy Institute."  And that's where the two conflicting modern usages came from.  But that's just a big picture view.  I'm certain there were other factors as well.  For example, the term "progressive" has pretty much never gone out of style in most of the Midwest since the early 20th Century, and the term "liberal" was never much used there as a general rule, at least to the best of my knowledge.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
One of the many others thanks you (4.00 / 4)
They think we disappeared because we haven't been wearing the name tags they assigned us forty years ago. Personally, I dislike the progressive tag almost as much as I did the liberal one, on the one hand because of the Nate Silver types calling themselves progressives and trying to rewrite history right in front of me, and on the other, people mistaking me for a guy who reads The New Republic.

Whatever I wind up being called, though, I'm certainly not undecided, as the pollsters shall presently discover, should they really want to know what's going on.


[ Parent ]
just call yourself a socialist :) (0.00 / 0)
or a social democrat, depending on the company you're in :)

[ Parent ]
This is a very good thing, (4.00 / 4)
because Nate does reflect the veiews of the so-called "creative class," which is the new version of yuppies.  So much class privilege is embedded in thwir world view.    

Nate reveals his core politics.  That's good.

Red-baiting at the core of it.  Of course, soon we will hear from Natt why EFCA needs to be postponed, etc., etc.

They want the system to exploit more efficiently. That is their hope for change.    

You do consistently excellent work, Paul.  Thanks.


[ Parent ]
Hollllllla (0.00 / 0)
because Nate does reflect the veiews of the so-called "creative class," which is the new version of yuppies.  So much class privilege is embedded in thwir world view.  

As a card-carying trailblazer among said class -- and admittedly upwardly-mobile young professional -- I have to disagree with that. The creative class as an economic grouping is itself a diverse community of opinions.

My guess is that a lot of this stuff would have to do with what scale of institution(s) you tend to operate within or in service of, and do what extent said institution(s) are a part of the existing political establishment.

A much larger portion of "Creative Class" members work for small entities or are independent agents as opposed to classic "yuppies". Less corporate, if you dig the short-hand.

I for one can't believe Marx retains this totemic value. The old man was insightful, but nobody takes his proscriptions very seriously in postmodern america. I'm with Zizek: both Neoloberal captialism (corporatism) and communism/marxism (Central Planning) have been bankrupted as effective ideas.

My end of the creative class believes that decentralization (which is like redistribution, but not the same) is key. We face enormous systemic risk when we trust central planning to oversee live/operational aspects of the economy, whether the planners office is in the Politburo or the CitiCorp boardroom. Letting the g-man focus on base-raising infrastructure and promoting actual enterprise on top of that platform is where it's at.

Me | My Work | Future Majority


[ Parent ]
It isn't the central planning, Josh (0.00 / 0)
What's still attractive about Marx isn't central planning, or what became of the vanguard of the working class once a nasty Soviet reality got hold of it. It's his criticism of capitalism which still resonates.

He was the first to understand capitalism not just as a system of production and distribution, but of ideological and political hegemony (in Paul's sense of the term.) Much of that criticism would be still be eye-opening today if we cared to read it instead of sneering at it, especially among people who call themselves social democrats without knowing exactly why.

As for believing in decentralization, you're only a generation late. That's what was new about the New Left, which, alas, is scarcely new anymore.


[ Parent ]
You are right about the Chinese menu quality of the supposed dichotomies (4.00 / 2)
The frame that Nate Silver set up has some arbitrary elements as well as some things are on the wrong side.

That was my focus in Quick Hits.  Whatever you want to call the progressives here on this site, they very much do see politics as a battle of ideas. Ideas though that have to be fought for, protected and put into actions and that takes the "will" that Silver seems to think is so dangerous.  The mainstream press just sees it some shadow boxing, just a sports game with no higher stakes.

And some dichotomies are neither dicothomies or even related to each other.  While it is true that his type of progessives are prone to being coopted (that was honest of him I will say), I don't see "diffiult to organize" as the opposite, relevant or even true; it's just off somewhere in space.

 

"Incrementalism isn't a different path to the same place, it could be a different path to a different place"
Stoller


Well done Paul, delineated well (4.00 / 2)
There is really nothing to add except that Nate's arguments are essentially  ad hominem attacks. Your ideas are not worth considering because of who you are. Your thoughts, programs and actions are not worth considering because of some unspecified malady.

It might be amusing to compare McCain's series of attacks on Obama for example as the campaign wound down to its embarrassing finish: he is a Marxist, he is a socialist, he is going to make America into North Korea etc.etc.

It might be best to understand him as the baseball analyst (and a very very good one) dipping unfortunately into the "the Ump is blind" screeching of the frustrated fan.

I have read Nate use very good fact based arguments to dispute, check and and confirm his points. I wish him well in returning to that commitment. As has been referred to in both David's and your posts, the education and study necessary to make the kind of argument he is capable of, might be an eye opening experience for him.

As one final point, I have been, and am, on Vacation, I have finished reading Obama's Dreams From My Father, in which he explains how the organizing and mission centered part of work in Chicago helps people to understand the processes they're dealing with. Obama never stated in his book any analysis, and I assume did not with his leaders and group members. He used organizing actions, like the 'removing asbestos from the "Gardens"' civil action to self-educate people so they could learn "to Demand" and feel, and use, the political power that is 'seemingly lost' to the poor of Chicago.

This is exactly that moment. This is where we are. This is a "removing asbestos' moment for the progressives and poor and middle class of America. Nate is playing the part of Ward boss worker, sowing dissension and division as we learn, demand and move forward.


Consider (4.00 / 1)
Nate Silver is a product of his academic training.  He is not a political naif, as some would believe, but his education (University of Chicago, with a year at the London School of Economics - think Hayek) will offer him a particular perspective on the political economy.  I've no particular desire to defend Nate over David, or David over Nate.  But, Nate's perspective, and his response to other points of view is, I think, more easily understood when I consider where he received his education.

Wherever and however one was educated (4.00 / 6)
there is still such a thing as engaging in independant and thoughtful critical thinking that does not exhibit a lazy acceptance of CW memes that are a distortion of reality. Sure, there are doctrinaire lefties who refuse to acknowledge the need for some compromise here and there, at least tactically, or the possibility that they might not be right about everything. But there are also more practical and accomodating lefties who nevertheless hold fast to their core ideas, values and goals. But putting a line between those who do and those who idealize is quite silly, and the product less of a certain school of thought than of a certain inability to get beyond a certain school of thought in one's thinking. He put out a straw man that David shot down. Just because some lefties match the caricature doesn't mean that most do. And as even allegedly "pragmatic" pragmatists would admit, if honest, they often screw up mightily.

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton

[ Parent ]
He is a product of University of Chicago (4.00 / 5)
academic training.  The University of Chicago being the bithplace of neoliberalism and neoconservatism.

This is why I am so disturbed by Booman's sudden lurch to the right.   He is allowing his blog to be coopted by the groups he has been trying to fight for the last 8 years.

It is scary.

Obama has mostly hired the neoliberals, who got us into the war and created the economic crisis and we are all suppose to defer to them.

My blog  


[ Parent ]
I don't understand or accept this division (4.00 / 6)
between rational and radical progressives, because they're not exclusive, or even speak to the same things. Radicals can be very rational, and many have been. To take some more extreme examples, Lenin and Castro were certainly rational, at least politically, if not in their policy ideas, or else they'd never have taken over.

I think, instead, that Nate probably meant to distinguish between progressives who preferred or were willing to work within the formal political system (i.e. elective and appointed politics, establishment think tanks), or outside of it but in incremental and compromising manner, and those who preferred and were willing to work outside the system, or inside it, but in more radical and uncompromising manner. And even there it gets messy.

E.g. Rahm Emanuel is the ultimate insider/compromiser, but he's known to be combative, not conciliatory. Paul Wellstone was a bit of a radical, but chose to work on the inside, yet sometimes compromised. David Sirota has worked both inside and outside the system, and I'm sure has exhibited both radical and conventional qualities. It's really not as clean-cut as Nate appears to delineate things. And to divide it between "serious" people who accept the limits of the real world and try to work within them, and more "radical" people who like to rail against the system but refuse to play by the sorts of rules required to fix it, is just silly.

Positive change comes from both insiders and outsiders, compromisers and radicals, each of which can be both rational and irrational. But the idea that only establishment-approved non-radical rational "experts" working in the inside can fix things makes no sense.

Was Lilly Ledbetter an insider? And wasn't what she did radical in its own way? Hell, in his own way Obama was also a radical outsider, in that he challenged the CW that only a well-established older white male insider with an utterly conventional background could win the presidency. (Ok, never mind that in many ways, he's extremely insidery and of the political establishment, because in other ways, he's not.) And weren't Bush, Cheney, Rummy, Rice, etc., well-respected "experts" (well, except for Bush) who were supposed to be the adults in the room? Yeah, this is just a silly division that does no good.

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton


Nate Blew this one! (4.00 / 5)
Here's a link to my Open Left Diary entry where I posted a copy of my response to Nate Silver's poorly thought out post slinging nastygrams at David Sirota.  I closed with a suggestion that Nate should apologize to David.

http://www.openleft.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=11642

One of my key comments to Nate was that in his list of traits I thought he should have juxtaposed "incrementalist" on the "rational" side and "transformational" on the "radical" side. I like to think that Open Left is a site for "transformational progressives." Of course, Nate stacked the deck with the labels "rational" and "radical." If I picked labels for the two sets of traits I think it might be "mugwump" instead of "rational" and "robust" instead of "radical."

I also commented that many of the traits that Nate identifies with (conversational, battle of ideas, incrementalist) are in the zone of Democratic pitches that Drew Westen, in The Political Brain, argues kept the Democratic Party in the wilderness in Congress for a dozen years and let Dubya win two elections and wreak havoc on both the United States and the rest of the World.

Nate's a stone genius at crunching numbers creatively, but he would do well to suspend posting on policy matters until he decides to take the time to educate himself about each issue. For example, a few days ago he was defending Geithner against critics who were emphatically (and metaphorically) kicking Geithner in the head over his non-proposals. Nate said we should all cut the new administration some slack on such complicated issues.

I'm among the chorus that so far has found Geithner to be a disaster. But I don't dis Geithner because I hate Big Banks. I dis Geithner (and Obama) for not adopting transformational strategies to deal with the home mortgage loan crisis and the bank insolvency crisis. Do I know better than Geithner from my own background? Of course not! But Nouriel Roubini knows better than Geithner - in my judgment - and his analyses are just a mouse click away.
Roubini says bring back the Depression-era Home Mortgage Loan Corp to buy up the toxic assets, and stop shilly-shallying around, trying to stall while Wall Street biggies scramble to try to regain a solvent position; go ahead and take over the insolvent banks. (It doesn't have to be the "N" word ["nationalization"].) Just go ahead and bite the bullet and turn Morgan Stanley (if it's insolvent) over to the FDIC, or to a 21st century version of the Resolution Trust Corporation, which cleaned up the mess after the Savings and Loan debacle of the Reagan-Bush years.

Nate seems to think that any time anyone raises his voice, he's engaging in demagoguery and has lowered himself to the level of the lowest wingnut! Ridiculous! The progressive blogosphere has a settled and secure place in the reality based community, which distinguishes any passionate progressive plea from the horse puckey of false stereotypes and other lies that we find on any wingnut site.

Anyway, I was sorry to see Nate stray so far from his usual solid bearings. And I do hope that he will apologize to David.


He lost me (4.00 / 5)
at the "outcomes versus processes" branch.

"Bipartisanship," anyone?

Montani semper liberi


Yeah, How Rational Was That? (4.00 / 4)
"If only" as they say in the trade.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Let's bring it down to brass tacks, shall we? (4.00 / 5)
There was a previous kerfluffle a couple of days ago about whether Obama intended to privatize Social Security, caused, I believe by his persistent "entitlements" rhetoric.  If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, etc.

While I will readily admit that at this point I DON'T REALLY KNOW what Obama's true intentions are, I do suspect this:

IF Obama DOES intend to privatize Social Security, many if not most of Silver's "Rational Progressives" will be right behind him with all sorts of talk about inevitability, etc. because they are not evaluating Obama from any political standpoint independent - they are willing to take Obama's lead on any issue, whatever it may be.  And we are not.


sTiVo's rule: Just because YOU "wouldn't put it past 'em" doesn't prove that THEY did it.


Well, It's Only Rational (4.00 / 3)
Any lemming will tell you so.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Scratch one of these guys (4.00 / 3)
and pretty soon they'll be spouting off about how "the Boomers screwed everything up so fuck their damned Social Security."

sTiVo's rule: Just because YOU "wouldn't put it past 'em" doesn't prove that THEY did it.

[ Parent ]
Hi Yo Silver (4.00 / 9)
The problem with this debate is that it is not exactly a debate. There are always  centrist Democrats  like Silver whose response when Democrats are in power to try to support and defend everything they do (from criticism from the left). That is what they are; that is what they do. They do NOT in general agree with the progressive goals of the left...if they did there would still be a debate. Just NOT this type of debate.
That is fine. Silver is a party man or if that does not define him precisely then he is an Obama man. He believes in synthesis. Very good. He should keep at it and when he achieves something "by synthesis" he should let us all know. Same for Obama. So far the "synthesis" is mostly BS. He does not like the attacks from the left from progressives who are more attached to seeing social and economic progress than in defending Democrats (who are a fairly sorry lot in general). Then that is too bad for him (it bothers him), and too bad for us (we have to listen to his puerile comments). But it is not a debate on results, on goals, on strategies to achieve these goals; it is an old-fashioned political attack from the centrists very much akin to the usual DLC attacks on the left.

In reality Obama is (4.00 / 1)
process orientated and doesn't care about the outcome.  The fact that he wants to make Social Security dependent on the stock market is proof of that, as is his post-partisanship.

The left was tricked into voting for him because he took a stand against the war, but all his advisers are prowar, so it we didn't get a change in political philosophy relative to Bush.

My blog  


Watch Out For Overstatement--Becoming A Mirror Image of Silver (4.00 / 3)
It's not that Obama doesn't care about outcome.  It's that he doesn't care enough.  Provided the outcome is not too bad in the short run, he deems that acceptable.

There are some who don't even care that much, and I think that a big part of our battle right now is to wean Obama away from them, and make him realize that long-term outcomes are a whole lot more important than he's so far willing to admit.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I don't see how we break him out of it (0.00 / 0)
with the people he has selected for his economic and foreign policy teams.   He has actually dismissed us quite a bit.  I wish Americans would start protesting this like Europeans.  The bank deal Geithner has worked out would inspire massive demonstrations in other parts of the world.

My blog  

[ Parent ]
You're assuming (0.00 / 0)
America is just like other parts of the world.

Maybe people will protest after Obama has been in office more than a month.  


[ Parent ]
I happen to think it is silly that this (0.00 / 0)
country invests so much in Presidents to change things, when they haven't since LBJ.

My blog  

[ Parent ]
Actually, I think (4.00 / 3)
it is the reverse.

Obama seeks reform capitalist outcomes in which the working classes get an increased share of the wealth they produce, while embedded in a mixed market system.  He is pragmatic about means and willing to compromise a lot.

I prefer social democratic outcomes, but reform capitalism is an improvement to now.

The problem Obam runs into sometimes is that using neo-liberal means may prevent reform capitalsit outcomes.

I know, broad terms, capable of definitional indeteminancy, at least at the margins, but I believe that sketches where he is.    

President Obama is very useful to moving the entire discourrse left.  For every Silver, there are many more whom we can reach by highlighting Obama's reform capitlist, pro-labor rhetoric.  


[ Parent ]
Neoliberalism Is Fundamentally Flawed (4.00 / 4)
Obama wants to tinker with it a bit, but I think it's literally inconceivable to him to get into any sort of fundamental rethinking.  Unfortunately, we're in the midst of a full-blown crisis, and his approach runs the danger of making him more like Hoover than FDR, which could spell big trouble for all Democrats, as well as those farther left.

The question is, can we shake things up enough to jar him out of his complacency?  Or, more accurately, to facilitate him awakening to the fact that things are much more dire than he seems to realize.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
It likely will not be (4.00 / 1)
public pressure from the left, at least not at first.  It will be events.

If you want to see what it really takes to boot the economy out of a debt trap, look at the large public works program, otherwise known as World War II, that ended the Great Depression. The war didn't just lead to full employment. It also led to rapidly rising incomes and substantial inflation, all with virtually no borrowing by the private sector. By 1945 the government's debt had soared, but the ratio of private-sector debt to G.D.P. was only half what it had been in 1940. And this low level of private debt helped set the stage for the great postwar boom.

Since nothing like that is on the table, or seems likely to get on the table any time soon, it will take years for families and firms to work off the debt they ran up so blithely. The odds are that the legacy of our time of illusion - our decade at Bernie's - will be a long, painful slump.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02...


[ Parent ]
sometimes fundamental rethinking is the process of many slow small rethinkings (0.00 / 0)
i think that's what you CAN and should hope for (and really demand) of him.  He was an idiot during the debates in the way he talked about, for example, Pakistan (which sounded a lot like how Bush talked abotu Afghanistan and Iraq).  But I think as you point out, we DID win and there IS a difference betwween pre-Obama presidents and him.  It may not be as great a difference as we would like, but there is the probability of strong change of the political options over a generation and the possibility it could advance a little more quickly than I might have thought three weeks ago.

[ Parent ]
Drilling Deeper: Collaborative vs. Personalist Progressives (4.00 / 4)
What Silver has done is frame out the ideological perspective of these two branches of progressivism, which I think he's done relatively accurately in such a small space.  

What he wasn't talking about, which I am more interested in, are the "action strategies" that each side tends to focus on.  And in an odd way, the strategies used seem to reverse the ideological differences.  In a book that I am just barely not done with I trace the emergence of what I call the "collaborative" and the "personalist" progressives.

The collaborative progressives are the familiar ones on the left hand side, John Dewey and company.  I won't say more about them, here.

The "personalist" progressives (and I struggled with what to call them) emerge essentially out of a romantic tradition of social analysis.  I've been focusing on education, and that is useful, since middle-class professional progressives tend to see education as the most important place to intervene.

In their education and in their social theory, the personalists focus on a world without charismatic leaders, without leaders at all in the sense that a working-class union or other standard action organization would understand them.  Theirs is a view of individual actualization within a "beloved community"--a term used by SNCC in the south, taken up by SDS in the North, and drawn from one of the 1920s personalists, Randolph Bourne.  Interestingly, these folks were not professors but independent intellectuals, as were the writers of the 1960s.  There are some fascinating similarities across these two eras.

This essentially romantic vision emerged most powerfully in the 20th century in the 1920s in the work of the "young intellectuals": Randolph Bourne, Van Wyck Brooks, Lewis Mumford (who was active in the 60s) and Waldo Frank.  Mostly forgotten.  Then it reemerged in the 1960s in the highly intellectual and anti-leader organizing models of SNCC (Ella Baker, Robert Moses) and SDS.  

The evidence of the impact of SNCC in the South is that it did have a somewhat transformative impact on what African Americans in some areas saw as "possible" for them, but it did not (and was not supposed to) lead to mass action.  In Birmingham, actually SNCC was reduced to begging Martin Luther King (who they disdained, and referred to as "the Lawd" in reference to their opposition to charismatic leaders) to "lead" people on marches.  They didn't have the capacity to do so themselves.  In the North, SDS created the almost completely ineffectual ERAP organizations.  They were ineffectual in part because they tried to impose their leaderless vision on those they worked with.  Among themselves, they could hardly ever get anything done--at one point according to Miller spending two days discussing whether they should take a day off and go to the beach.  An iconic photograph shows one of their key "leaders" gazing intently into the lens, with everyone else falling asleep around her.

In other words, the "radical" progressives' vision was more transformative than the "collaborative" progressives, but was more utopian and ineffectual in its actual process.  The collaboratives also were uncomfortable with leaders, but at least had a vision of a process for collaboration to generate social change.  

It is helpful to note that many of the "radical" progressives shifted towards the "counter-culture," with the exception of a few like the Weathermen.  Of course, at the same time the Vietnam War Movement was happening.  

To some extent, Silver is mixing up the "personalist" progressives of the SDS and early SNCC era, and the later dogmatic leaders of the Black Power movement and groups like the Weathermen.  It is informative to note that the Black Power movement was fundamentally (and explicitly) an urban working-class movement, and that it was the working-class that emerged as increasingly influential in the South (in the form of Deacons for Defense, for example).  The early personalists were quite optimistic--they only became cynical later on, and that's when their strategic approach shifted--and many of them simply "dropped out."  Paul has noted some other areas where Silver's model starts to break down.

There is much more to be said--but I'm just barely keeping my head above water at the moment.  If anyone is interested, I could put a chapter about the different approaches of the Civil Rights Movement, and the ways these different visions intersected there up for people to look at.  The rest is too detailed and spread out across different chapters, I think.

--Aaron Schutz (Core Dilemmas of Community Organizing)


Neither strategic approach is that effective (4.00 / 2)
By the way, I didn't write this in support of the "collaborative" approach.  I agree with others that what Silver calls the "ratinoal" approach is of limited political effectiveness as well--although perhaps more effective than the "personalist".  The middle-class radicals were especially ineffective (though loud) but the working-class "radicals" accomplished an enormous amount--but they aren't progressives in the sense that most of us mean it.  

So that's another area that, as Paul notes, I've been repeating ad-nauseum--the difference between working-class radicals (like unions) and ineffective middle-class radicals (like the Weathermen).

--Aaron Schutz (Core Dilemmas of Community Organizing)


[ Parent ]
A summation which leaves much to be desired (4.00 / 4)

So that's another area that, as Paul notes, I've been repeating ad-nauseum--the difference between working-class radicals (like unions) and ineffective middle-class radicals (like the Weathermen).

I know you know this, but I'll say it anyway. As someone who was deeply committed at the time, I can say definitely that the situation, and the people involved, were a lot more complicated than this sentence gives them credit for.

There were repeated attempts at cross-fertilization between the New Left and the tattered band of labor intellectuals and union organizers still standing after the red purges of the fifties. I myself remember trying to pick the brains of old guys from the ILWU in the back of their hiring hall in 1966.

Beyond that, Ineffective middle-class radicals is an awfully broad brush, and worse than that, it implies that something else might have been more effective. Perhaps, but frankly, I'm hard put to understand what it might have been. When he moved beyond the narrow objectives of the Civil Right Movement, even Martin Luther King had a hard time getting anyone to listen to him.

The Weathermen weren't the embodiment of the middle-class radicalism of the period. They were an idiot offshoot of SDS, a case of penis envy induced in impatient white kids by the superb political theater of the Black Panthers. (Never underestimate the centrifugal power of emotion, even on the John Deweys of the world, if and when they actually try to get something done.)


[ Parent ]
I think the Black Power Movement (4.00 / 2)
Is a good example of something that might have been more effective, despite its limitations, and the fact that it was destroyed by the government.  School lunch program, anyone?  Fundamental shifts in the vision of African Americans in America?  I am still a learner in this ara, however.

Of course any summary of an era that is this brief necessarily gives short shrift to the many others working in the margins between organizations.  On the other hand, what you talk about simply didn't happen despite the "attempts", and it's important to understand why.

You are right that MLK had problems moving beyond what he did in the South.  But he could have spent the time building long-term organizations that could act later on.  

To be critical is not to deny the real accomplishments of most of these groups.

--Aaron Schutz (Core Dilemmas of Community Organizing)


[ Parent ]
Seeds grow only when conditions are propitious (4.00 / 3)
Why didn't it work? Well, we were outgunned, of course -- massively outgunned. The Fifties were the real fulcrum. That's when Paul's hegemony was established. The Cold War, the rise of a prosperous middle class, the labor movement transformed into a recipient of bread and circuses -- we could go on and on.

As always, you needed a catalyst. The Civil Rights movement was a massive one, the Viet Nam War not so much, despite what we thought at the time. MLK, to his credit, tried to tie the two together, but he was tragically ahead of his time. The Black Power movement -- hell, even the Black Muslims, with their dedication to community self-sufficiency -- might have been built upon, could we have succeeded in forming some sort of coalition with them. Believe me, we tried, but they were as culturally isolated as we were, perhaps even more so.

We were fragmented, we didn't represent a broad enough segment of the population, and we were mopped up piecemeal. The generation which followed was smaller, and with the draft was gone, was relatively easy to pacify.

It seems to me that we have another opportunity now, but those of us who went through it the last time are too old, and the younger generation will have to learn it all again. Institutions outlive individuals. They become more brittle over time, and if the assumptions on which they are based are faulty, they can be vulnerable when overwhelmed by the consequences of their faulty assumptions. For folks like us, carpe diem, and hope for the best may not be sufficient, but it's often all we have to work with, despite all the preparations we make beforehand.


[ Parent ]
All true (4.00 / 2)
But from an organizing perspective, the key is what you leave behind.  The failure to build organizations is a key problem.  If you can't win on the grand stage, you can win on the small stage--there are always places to intervene.  I'm less concerned with the "movement" failure than with the "organizational" failure.  And for this one needs to look at organizations.  

Again, this is not meant to deny the important efforts that people make in every generation.  But we should not be in the position of "learn it all again."  

Isn't that the problem?

--Aaron Schutz (Core Dilemmas of Community Organizing)


[ Parent ]
It is indeed, (4.00 / 3)
but organizations on the left are as vulnerable to entropy as the hegemonic institutions which we all decry. More vulnerable, I would argue, because they're based on the commitment of the people who belong to them, and very little else. There are no plutocratic endowments, boards of directors, training academies, etc., to perpetuate their influence long after they've been hollowed out.

Once upon a time, labor unions were our best bet, if for no other reason than the resources which the collective contributions of their members could supply to a broader political purpose. Need I say International Brotherhood of Teamsters to point out the kind of thing which can happen even to our strongest organizations?

I agree with you that we have an organizing problem, and also with what I believe to be the broader implication of what you've written here: that smaller organizations, firmer and more universal intellectual foundations, and broader coalitions seem to be the way forward. I'd be interested in what you and others think such a devoutly-wished consummation might actually look like.


[ Parent ]
I don't think we've even done the work to figure out the key questions (4.00 / 2)
yet.  That's why I've been writing the series on "core dilemmas of community organizing"  We're at a position right now where we have a fairly established neo-Alinsky model of local organizing, but have not really (IMHO) taken the time to critique it carefully enough to see the fractures in the model.  My effort is only a small part of what it will take, and there are likely more important discussions going on about similar issues elsewhere within organizing groups.  

It seems undeniable that organizing simply hasn't proved as effective or powerful as it could be, either in building power or developing leaders (I mean, Obama left organizing to enter politics).  Why it hasn't is a broad challenge and question.  

And improving local organizing is, of course, only one piece of the larger puzzle.  

So don't let me give the impression that I have any clear sense of a "consummation."  But I do have some suggestions about steps toward that, as do others here (as well as yourself, I'm sure).  

--Aaron Schutz (Core Dilemmas of Community Organizing)


[ Parent ]
And Obama Isn't Alone (4.00 / 2)
Los Angeles is just crawling with former organizers among its political figures.  Most are former labor organizers, rather than community organizers, but (a) they are primarily Latino organizers who have had a strong community orientation as well, and have engaged in forms of labor/community organizing that go beyond traditional forms of workplace organizing and (b) they also include community organizers in their midst.

This would not be such a bad thing, if the the result were a pipeline of new organizers continuing to push things forward, in close collaboration with the electeds.  But while this has sometimes been the case, the opposite has tended to be the dominant paradigm.  And the clearest example of this is Antonio Villaraigos, a former labor organizer for the teachers union who's first and most prominent political has been against the very union that gave him his big break.

He has top aides who go back to the 1980s "Jobs With Peace" organization that was arguably the most powerful and visionary progressive grassroots organization in black working class South Central LA, and who themselves came out of the Farmworkers Union before that.  When I got to know them back then, they were some of the most dedicated and effective organizers around.  But there were structural and organizational problems even back then that have only grown more powerful over the years in limiting the scope of the conceivable and the possible in terms of what they and their milieu can perceive.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
A sad case in point (4.00 / 1)
Newark. Tom Hayden and LeRoi Jones, as he still was known at the time. It's not much remarked on now, their conflict, but as an example of the intersection of all the things that can go wrong in community organizing, it's still worth remembering.

[ Parent ]
but this is still a city that produced a million immigrants in the streets (0.00 / 0)
two years ago.  So perhaps, in addition to the mass media and the church and all else that aided that, there are people in the unseen reaches, men and women in their homes or workplaces or in the park, who are frustrated, angry, striving, or joyful, just waiting to be given the chance to do a little more mobilising/organising/leading/compelling :)

but chicago was still more impressive :D


[ Parent ]
There is a hunger (0.00 / 0)
for opportunities to act effectively and gain power.  But we have not been effective enough in providing avenues to feed that hunger.  And so instead people do service as a poor replacement for real civic action.

--Aaron Schutz (Core Dilemmas of Community Organizing)

[ Parent ]
You Are Both Making Very Good Points Here (4.00 / 5)
Two things I would like to add here.  One is the point that Frances Fox Pivens and Richard Cloward make in Poor Peoples Movements, which is that really poor people suffer from an extreme lack of resources, and therefore, for purely material reasons, the most effective thing they can do is simply to disrupt business as usual.  It's not that they are an inherently negative force, with nothing positive to contribute.  It's that they simply don't have the capacity to become a more articulate, more coherent force.

The fact that rural (predominantly) black workers and domestic workers were left out of the New Deal social contract excluded them from the mainstream of the union movement that raised a significant portion of the white working class up out of this condition.  And, of course, the degraded conditions of the Southern black working class dragged down the Southern white working class as well, as well as having national implications through the Great Migration and its follow-ons.

This leads to my second point--that Martin Luther King was working to create just the sort of enduring organization you speak of, through the organizing strategy of the "Poor People's March" at the time he was assassinated.  So I don't it's fair to blame him for not doing this.  He was engaged in beginning this process at the time, and it seems quite plausible that this is precisely why he was assassinated when he was.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Dang, You've Been Missed Around These Parts! (4.00 / 4)
I'm really glad you chimed in with this, and definitely want you to post your chapter.  Would it be appropriate to do it as a diary, or perhaps break it up into a short series of them?

Two minor comments.  (1) It should be noted that SNCC was far more crucial and impactful on the less dramatic work in smaller communities, particularly registering people to vote in the most intimidating circumstances.  (2) Lewis Mumford was a huge influence on me as a teenager.  The City in History, The Myth of the Machine, The Pentagon of Power, all very good stuff.

And one not-so-minor: I really see as crucial work to be done the integration of different tendencies, which you and I have discussed several times before--such as your discussion of bringing together working class participants who are empowered as designated spokespersons with middle-class more process-oriented folks.

Selma, Alabama really was an example of where SNCC and SCLC successfully synergized together.  But it was not something that was every institutionalized.  In fact, just the opposite.  It was the point from which they diverged most sharply and decisively.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Here it is (0.00 / 0)
http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=...

I think it's too long for a diary.  If you think it would be useful, I'd be willing to turn my comment, above, into a diary, adding some stuff from this.  Or whatever you think might be useful if you happen to have the time to read it. Any comments would be welcomed!

By the way, I'm sure you are more informed about the Civil Rights movement in specific than I am.  There is always a tension between doing too much or too little research (and if I don't actually write information into a paper, I often forget it).  I'm sure I read about Selma, but I don't remember it.  I'll have to look.  Thanks!


--Aaron Schutz (Core Dilemmas of Community Organizing)


[ Parent ]
thanks! (4.00 / 1)
it's really kind of you to put a draft up!!!!!!

although it's a bit of an aside for the writing, in your thinking about htis, I'd suggest looking more closely at the notion of violence, particularly as its been developed by anti-domestic violence work and the non-violent communication mmovement and other things.  

Your aside about whether non-violence was rooted in a Southern Black tradition is interesting - I don't know enough to comment about that, but it is worthwhile to explore the how and the why of it rather than pointing to Gandhi (who drew directly or indirectly from Tolstoy and Thoreau among others).  I would also be curious about the notion of (various interpretationns of) Christianity and the public relations commponent of non-violent civil disobedience as a strategy.

Also, if you haven't read it, though I assume you have, I highlyl recommend David Roediger's "Wages of Whitness" - which is a different era, but might inform some of what you're looking at.

Best,


[ Parent ]
Thanks (0.00 / 0)
Good ideas, as usual.  Interestingly, Thoreau and Tolstoy were key influences on the American progressives I call the "personalists"--especially Tolstoy's vision of education.  The violence idea is cool, but, frankly, I just don't have time to pursue it.  There are much more detailed discussions of nonviolence in the South and its emergence--I just touch on this.  This case study chapter is meant really to provide a grounding for my overall argument, and not as a detailed discussion of the issues.

Also interestingly, many of the personalists were Catholics.  And personalist "philosophy" is one of the few branches of philosophy deeply integrated into religious thought.  See Personalism: A Critical Introduction by Burrow. (although the cultural trend I'm calling personalist is not exactly the same as the philosophical current).

I have read Roediger, but quite a while ago now.  I need to look again.  I did cite it earlier in the book.


--Aaron Schutz (Core Dilemmas of Community Organizing)


[ Parent ]
Hmm . . . I guess I did write about Selma (0.00 / 0)
Not only can't I remember what I read, I can't remember what I wrote :)

--Aaron Schutz (Core Dilemmas of Community Organizing)

[ Parent ]
i think this would be helpful: (4.00 / 1)
There is much more to be said--but I'm just barely keeping my head above water at the moment.  If anyone is interested, I could put a chapter about the different approaches of the Civil Rights Movement, and the ways these different visions intersected there up for people to look at.

Thanks!


[ Parent ]
Civil Rights chapter is up (0.00 / 0)
See post a couple of replies up.  

Here it is again:

http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=...

--Aaron Schutz (Core Dilemmas of Community Organizing)


[ Parent ]
it would be way more constructive (0.00 / 0)
to stop arguing with other Dems.  We may even get something accomplished that way.  You may despise the Republicans but they did get their agenda passed by sticking together.

I think that it would be more helpful overall if we would just find areas that we agree on and work together to enact them.  This squabbling is counter productive.


how (4.00 / 3)
Can we stop arguing to pass "our agenda" when we clearly do not agree on what that agenda comprises?  "Destroy the safety net and empower the powerful" is a very easy agenda to unite around.  Further, the authoritarian bias of conservativism will always mean they have an easier time uniting generally.

What works for them won't work for us.  Disagreement and debate is not just inescapable but on the whole positive.  It's why we support democracy and conservativism does not.


[ Parent ]
O.K. (0.00 / 0)
I've got your message loud and clear. Guess that progressives have no issues that we can agree to work together on.

Guess that it's Open Left's way or the highway.  


[ Parent ]
that wasn't the message (4.00 / 2)
The only thing I know of that "progressives" can agree to work together on is voting against Republicans.

And I happen to believe that that least-common-denominator approach to politics is a major contributor to the woes we're facing today.

Let's say it IS Open Left's way or the highway.  Open Left's way includes debating about important political issues. If you feel oppressed when someone disagrees with you, or if you feel uncomfortable when people disagree, then maybe Open Left isn't right for you.

Part of what's going on is that it was easy to focus most of our energy on writing about what's so horrible about Republicans when they were pulling all the levers of power.  They're still pulling too many, but we also have to concern ourselves with the people who have their hands on the levers now. There will be more things to debate about inside the Democratic Party and the Progressive community. And that means some people's feelings are going to get hurt.


[ Parent ]
this doesn't cohere (4.00 / 2)
I say that debate is good and necessary and you accuse me of having an our way or the highway approach.  Come again?

I'm not sure who "we" is in your formulation since you seem to hold yourself apart from progressives, but in a sense this is true and not remarkable.  I would not expect conservatives to work with us for issues they don't believe in.  It's why this bi-partisan thing is dumb.  People have diametrically different and competing views about things, compromise just leads to incoherent policy.  


[ Parent ]
Seriously, Daniels' Right (4.00 / 2)
This looks like a very bad case of projection.

We're not the ones stifling debate.  We're the ones calling for it.

It was Silver who essentially said, STFU and listen to the experts.  This tendency (some go farther than others) has always been the bottom line problem with classic progressivism.  And it's always been opposed by the "irrational" progressives.

Are we going to be forceful advocates for our point of view?  Of course we are!  But we aren't going to claim that the debate itself should not be happening. And that, essentially, is what Nate has argued in the past, and that's why this debate is even happening in the first place.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
a few points (0.00 / 0)
when the social conservative / economic conservative movement was at a similar point (Reagan) that was the time he felt it necessary to issue the 11th Commandment (thou shalt not speak ill of another Republican).  This is key to big tent strategy - namely to embrace a big tent.

Also, once they accumulated enough power to get to their heads, they DID start fighting - a LOT.  Particularly when it looked like they were going to lose.  if you think the Christian Fundamentalists and the tax cutters never fight, rewind to the response to Palin or the GWB Supreme Court nominations or what else.  It just looks like they were united because a) they had so much power (which they spent a lot of time accumulatinng) and b) their policy points were anathema to what most of us think (which is what brought us together).

So it's unsurprising that as the political spectrum moves a bit to "the left" some SUBSTANTIVE differences will emerge between a Paul Rosenberg and a Nate Silver or a Dennis Kucinich and a Barack Obama that will not just be random points in a conversation but cohere into different strands nd strategies (and if we're not careful, animosities).  Once we moved from "against [Bush/Cheney/McCain/Palin]" to "for X", we have started fighting about what X is - as you pointed out.

The trick, though, is to do this properly - especially for those of us to the left of all this - that we keep calm as possible, do disagree and be generally honest with ourselves and others, and do so in as civil and nonviolent a way as possible, whether it is in how we speak or how we shut down a World Bank meeting.  

NVC!


[ Parent ]
Two Different Things (4.00 / 1)
You've got both the subject and the time frame wrong.  Reagan was speaking in the electoral areana "The shalt not speak ill of another Republican" well before he was elected, when he was still an insurgent, and the commandment was meant to keep moderates from criticising and him and even defecting.  Meanwhile, the movement conservatives were going after each other with hammer and tongs all the time.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Yup! (0.00 / 0)
There's as messed up as we are.  But they've got megagobs more money to smooth it all over.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Please take that over to 538. (4.00 / 1)
I had no beef with Mr. Silver until he started calling me and mine "dangerous".  

We all have our issues.  I'm willing to put up with a certain amount of BS to bandaid our banking system even if it's not the way I'd go about it.  "My way or the highway" - not by a long shot.

On the other hand if I see something like privatization of Social Security coming out of Obama's commission - and, certainly there is no proof that I will - how the hell am I supposed to make common ground with that?


sTiVo's rule: Just because YOU "wouldn't put it past 'em" doesn't prove that THEY did it.


[ Parent ]
Equally Importantly (4.00 / 3)
if we don't take pre-emptive steps to prevent the further slashing, if not total deconstruction of entitlement, we will be fighting at a severe disadvantage.

You don't wait until damage or threats of damage appear to do something.  You take action to prevent or ensure against it.

This is not any sort of radical idea.  It's the same principle that underlies preventive medicine, the insurance industry, and ancient adages such as "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure."  Heck, it's a prudential conservative orientation.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
you mean like when reagan ran as an insurgent? (4.00 / 1)
or when bush's campaign accused mccain of fathering an illegitimate black child?
or when Bush's father gave us the term "voodoo economics"?

I don't disagree with you that a big tent is useful, but there is a point to dealing with difference, rather than denying it completely.  There's a certain amount of horsetrading that has to happen.


[ Parent ]
A snark title for this diary (4.00 / 4)
Does Nate Silver Know He's a Right Hegelian?

More seriously, I wish that would-be American political theorists would look beyond our own shores on occasion. There's a lot to read and absorb, to be sure, but it would spare us the embarrassment of having to listen to a supposed ally referring to Marx as though he were some sort of imported dime-store devil.  


Calling Richard Marx "some sort of imported dime-store devil" goes too far! (4.00 / 4)
I mean, the guy was borne in Chicago! And Itunes is hardly a dime-store!
:D

[ Parent ]
Nate Silver has nothing valuable to say (4.00 / 2)
Okay maybe not literally nothing - that's a description reserved for the people at National Review Online - but he very rarely has any particular insight to offer. His posts on politics are almost always gussied-up C.W. cliches ("Rational Progressive" = "Reasonable Liberal"). Basically a geekier version of your uncle spouting off at Thanksgiving.

His statistical stuff is fine, but it should be noted that (a) he's not a "genius," as someone people have called him, as he is just applying standard statistical methods that any grad student could do; and (b) his election predictions weren't really any better than those produced by simply weighing the polls a la Chris Bowers.

I'd like to give the guy the benefit of the doubt, but I have to say that his attempt at picking a blog-fight with Sirota looks an awful lot like an attempt to juice up his site's declining traffic.


we can disagree within the left without such negativity (4.00 / 2)
I like this site and nate silver's site.  I love nate's analytical articles, and I like you guys ideas and call to arms on the blue dogs.

But I agree with nate's article, that you guys demogogue occasionally and play fast and loose with the facts.  Especially Siroto.

It seems like sometimes he acts like we all have to agree with all of his points or else we are corporatist status quo supportors.

Many issues like the economy and war are complex and there is no one solution to either.  I agree with you guys that small incrementalism is bad, but on the other hand we can't have overnight radical change to shock the system.  I wish we could have all the troops home from iraq immediately, but Obama believes it will take 16 months.

However I do believe we can put millions of people back to work in 6 months, as the slate article on fdr's administration suggests.  I think we should put millions of people back to work in the green economy building a green infrastructure, and we need universal health care as soon as possible.

I like you guys' site, but I think we're all on the same side, we don't need to demonize other bloggers on our side because they aren't exactly on the same page policy wise, or politicians.  The blue dogs are the bad politicians, not all of them.


Hello! (4.00 / 2)
But I agree with nate's article, that you guys demogogue occasionally and play fast and loose with the facts.  Especially Siroto.

My diary here presents evidence that Nate is playing fast and loose when he put together his post.  You, in contrast just float a broad accusation.

And this:

It seems like sometimes he acts like we all have to agree with all of his points or else we are corporatist status quo supportors.

Is an all-too-common example of David's critics playing fast and loose with their accusations.

The sad fact is that corporate ideology and propaganda is so ubiquitous that people often don't even realize where the ideas they express really come from.  Here them spouted enough times from enough different directions, and they just seem like "common sense".  But that's the very essence of hegemony.

I agree with you guys that small incrementalism is bad, but on the other hand we can't have overnight radical change to shock the system.

I'm afraid that the neoliberal financial crowd has already taken care of things on the "overnight radical change to shock the system" front, thank you very much.

The question of the moment is what to do next?  Smile and say, "more please, thank you very much?"  Or "Stop, thief!"

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
examples (4.00 / 1)
when i was referring to siroto labeling those who disagree with him as "part of the status quo corportism" the best example was his post on the second tarp vote as one example, but not the only one.  i agree with nate's article on that.

my example for overnight radical change is homosexuality and gay marriage.  10 years ago we wouldn't even think of such a concept.  well not you and me, i mean a majority of americans.  gradually homosexually became more accepted, now we are talking about gay marriage.  but i don't think americans are quite to gay marriage, unless you could massachussetts and some of the other states like that.  so instead of gay marriage being a right in california, it is now not a right.  i think civil unions should have been legalized first.  then once people would then see homosexuality does no harm to them and society, we could then make it gay marriage.

I have a gay friend and he is adamant about it being marriage, but i asked him which would he rather, going ahead with civil unions or trying to move to forward at once and get gay marriage only to have it banned by several states in the election.  Maybe it's not the same for all issues, but that's my example.


[ Parent ]
Obviously, you Have A Different Defintion Of "Examples" Than I Do (4.00 / 3)
As a reporter, when I point to an example it's generally something people can sink their teeth into. "X said Y about Z" kind of thing.  Not "He said mean stuff about some people supporting the TARP vote."  IMHO that's perfectly reasonable for him to do, so you'll have to go into more detail to show how it's wrong.

As for gay marriage, well, the majority always thinks that the minority is "moving too fast."  And if the minority is dumb enough to buy into that, they'll be fighting the same battle for 100 years.

History is made by unreasonable people.

After which, the reasonable people try their darnedest to rewrite it.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I think Obama is the love child of Jesus Christ and Rosa Luxemburg (4.00 / 2)
His intentions are the best, his heart is pure.

I also think that his good intentions, however cleverly concealed, would be greatly enhanced if progressives were unabashedly proud of being dangerous and radical.  And if the populist anger sweeping America could be expressed by grassroots organizing not seen since the 1930s, and a willingness to "shut it down."

And if wretched buffoons like Silver were forced to hang their heads in shame.

Full Court Press!  http://www.openleft.com/showDi...


the trick is not to scare them until it's too late for them to do anything about it (0.00 / 0)
:)

[ Parent ]
The problem is the tone, nothing else (4.00 / 1)
Sirota is a progressive, populist American liberal.
Silver is a technocratic, centrist American liberal.

What is problematic, and upsetting (especially for someone like me who is to the "left" of both of them by American standards but really anyone who is anti-elite, pro-social  justice) is that defensiveness, catfighting, mistrust, are the best weapons of conservatives.  So posts and comments  (whether Sirotas or Silver's or mine or anyone else's) that engage in this are destructive to movement building, regardless of whether there is a legitimate conflict of interests and not just opinions.  

NVC!



USER MENU

Open Left Campaigns

SEARCH

   

Advanced Search

QUICK HITS
STATE BLOGS
Powered by: SoapBlox