In Which I Come Out As A Conservative

by: Paul Rosenberg

Wed Mar 25, 2009 at 13:00


Over the past few weeks, it's been pretty common for people like me, who have favored bank take-overs, to be portrayed as favoring a more "radical" approach to dealing with the financial crisis--and in one sense, that's certainly true.  "Radical" comes from the Greek "radic", meaning "root", and radicals are those who want to solve problems at their roots.  While bank takeovers might not really get at the roots of the problem, they'd certainly get us closer to the roots, so in that sense, it's a more radical approach.

But it's also a more conservative approach, too.  How can it be both?  Simple: this problem we face is severe and systemic.  The most prudent, conservative thing to do is it to take action now, not just to repair damage and correct past mistakes, but to ensure against a repeat.  And to do that, mere tinkering will not suffice.  From The Compulsive Theorist:

Why a second best bailout may not be good enough

....

Two things about the aetiology of the crisis stand out. First, perverse incentives for agents within the financial sector played a central role in bringing about the crisis. Second, there were (and remain) issues of poor system design in the financial sector: even perverse incentives might have had limited consequences in a robust system. The problem with the Geithner plan is that even [if] it works in terms of stabilizing the economy in the short-term, it does relatively little (the uncharitable would say almost nothing) to correct either incentives or system design. But the business and cultural norms and system-wide conflicts of interest which form the backdrop to the crisis run deep, and will not change without substantial impetus. It is precisely these deeper issues that we must address if we are to reduce the risk of a re-run of the crisis, probably on a larger scale, in a few years time....

This case can be put very simply: if we do not use current political momentum to fundamentally reform a system which has shown itself to be unstable and even dangerous, a second opportunity may come at a very high price. And this is not a gamble I wish to see our leaders make.

Not gambling: that's being conservative.  That's me.

Furthering my point, this same essay links to an article in the Financial Times...

Paul Rosenberg :: In Which I Come Out As A Conservative
 from earlier in the month, "Seeds of its own destruction" by associate editor and chief economics commentator Martin Wolf.  It begins:

Another ideological god has failed. The assumptions that ruled policy and politics over three decades suddenly look as outdated as revolutionary socialism.

and goes on to say:

Today, with a huge global financial crisis and a synchronised slump in economic activity, the world is changing again. The financial system is the brain of the market economy. If it needs so expensive a rescue, what is left of Reagan's dismissal of governments? If the financial system has failed, what remains of confidence in markets?

It is impossible at such a turning point to know where we are going. In the chaotic 1970s, few guessed that the next epoch would see the taming of inflation, the unleashing of capitalism and the death of communism. What will happen now depends on choices unmade and shocks unknown. Yet the combination of a financial collapse with a huge recession, if not something worse, will surely change the world. The legitimacy of the market will weaken. The credibility of the US will be damaged. The authority of China will rise. Globalisation itself may founder. This is a time of upheaval.

While the Obama team, and Democrats seem to be betting on a relatively quick recovery--within two years, at most--Wolf clearly sees a deeper crisis, leading to profound change, not as a matter of anyones choice, but simply as a matter of inevitability.  Among other things, Wolf links to this paper abstract, by two authors who predicted the financial crisis in 2007, by using a similar historical analysis to the one undertaken in this paper:

The Aftermath of Financial Crises

Carmen M. Reinhart
University of Maryland - School of Public Affairs; National Bureau of Economic Research (NBER)

Kenneth Rogoff
Harvard University - Department of Economics; National Bureau of Economic Research (NBER)

January 2009

NBER Working Paper No. w14656

Abstract:    
This paper examines the depth and duration of the slump that invariably follows severe financial crises, which tend to be protracted affairs. We find that asset market collapses are deep and prolonged. On a peak-to-trough basis, real housing price declines average 35 percent stretched out over six years, while equity price collapses average 55 percent over a downturn of about three and a half years. Not surprisingly, banking crises are associated with profound declines in output and employment. The unemployment rate rises an average of 7 percentage points over the down phase of the cycle, which lasts on average over four years. Output falls an average of over 9 percent, although the duration of the downturn is considerably shorter than for unemployment. The real value of government debt tends to explode, rising an average of 86 percent in the major post-World War II episodes. The main cause of debt explosions is usually not the widely cited costs of bailing out and recapitalizing the banking system. The collapse in tax revenues in the wake of deep and prolonged economic contractions is a critical factor in explaining the large budget deficits and increases in debt that follow the crisis. Our estimates of the rise in government debt are likely to be conservative, as these do not include increases in government guarantees, which also expand briskly during these episodes.

Right now, the Obama Administration seems to be devoting its rhetorical resources to countering Republican critiques, rather than attacking the whole mindset, and explaining why it has created both false and unreasonable expectations, which cannot be a guide to judging the pace and nature of recovery.  In short, it is doing nothing to prepare the American people for the likely severity and difficulty of what lies ahead.

This is the very real and palpable political danger that Obama is courting.

The paper itself is behind a paywall, but a pre-publication draft is available here [pdf].  FYI, the historical data set used is explained thus (the earlier paper is the one predicting the crash):

Reinhart and Rogoff (2008a) included all the major postwar banking crises in the developed world (a total of 18) and put particular emphasis on the ones dubbed "the big five" (Spain 1977, Norway 1987, Finland, 1991, Sweden, 1991, and Japan, 1992). It is now beyond contention that the present U.S. financial crisis is severe by any metric. As a result, we now focus only on systemic financial crises, including the "big five" developed economy crises plus a number of famous emerging market episodes: the 1997-1998 Asian crisis (Hong Kong, Indonesia, Malaysia, the Philippines, and Thailand); Colombia, 1998; and Argentina 2001. These are cases where we have all or most of the relevant data that allows for thorough comparisons.  Central to the analysis is historical housing price data, which can be difficult to obtain and are critical for assessing the present episode.1 We also include two earlier historical cases for which we have housing prices, Norway in 1899 and the United States in 1929.

That's not a very big dataset, but (a) there really aren't a lot of crises this big, thank God, and (b) it's a hell of a lot better than a data set of zero, which is what Obama/Geithner/everyone else is relying on.

Obama persists in thinking in terms of Ronald Reagan.  To his limited perspective, Ronald Reagan and Franklin D. Roosevelt are merely two sides of the same coin.  He has no idea how much more massive the problems FDR faced than those confronting Reagan.  He's orders of magnitude smarter than Bush, and yet, his understanding is still microscopic on an historical scale--as is everyone's in Versailles.

Reinhart and Rogoff aren't the only ones to have predicted this crash, obviously.  A lot of people did.  But Tim Giethner wasn't one of them.  Nor was Larry Summers.  Or anyone else I can think of who's part of Obama's team.  And therein lies the problem.  I wouldn't object to have some Wall Street connection in Obama's economic team.  The problem is the total exclusion of outsiders and people who saw it coming.

Those are the people who, because of their social situation (i.e. situated outside of Wall Street and Versailles inner sanctums) are regarded as, well, not worth regarding.  But in reality, because of the perspectives they hold, they are actually the best situated to evaluate and make recommendations that are most likely to avoid making matters much, much worse.  They are, in fact, the actual "true conservatives" that folks on the right have been looking for ever since they realized that Bush's numbers were never coming back up.

And in that sense, because I do not believe in destroying the world economy in order to save (or totally transform) it, you can count me among them as a "true conservative," too.

But I'm still a Star Trek socialist, too.  Never forget that.


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Let debates happen (4.00 / 4)
Good stuff, Paul.

There was a really annoying thread on TPM the other day that described opponents of the Obama economic policy as drinking Paul Krugman's Kool-Aid.  The poster was an idiot and was roundly and solidly thumped by most of the commenters.  He had nothing to offer other than faith in Obama, no substance whatsoever.  Not worth commenting about here - except it congealed my thinking.

No, I'm not drinking anyone's Kool-Aid.  As I said here the other day, I don't KNOW if Krugman is right.  I'm not in any position to know that with any degree of certainty.  But I will say that his critiques make sense to me, and the statements of the Administration make less.  But someone like me saying Krugman is right on all points would be drinking Kool-Aid.

No, what I want is a real DEBATE between Krugman and the other critical economists and those in the administration, and that isn't happening.  It's still a "cool kids secret" where the unwashed Krugmanites are not deemed worthy of debating.  That's what needs to change.  Let debates happen, so that none of us need to drink KoolAid.

sTiVo's rule: Just because YOU "wouldn't put it past 'em" doesn't prove that THEY did it.


Actually, Debates Are Happening (4.00 / 4)
It's the Administration that's not taking part in them.  But Krugman and other economists are debating between themselves.  And the more that folks in the blogosphere pay attention to those debates, the more we can raise pressure for them to be headed by the powers that be.

At the very least, it would make sense to have some Congressional hearings to give them a more prominent forum to be heard.  And certainly the paper I point to hear provides the kind of historical background that Congress ought to want to consider in moving forward with policy decisions in the future.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
But Paul (0.00 / 0)
It's 'fraken over.  Chris said so.  

You seem to have forgotten that.


[ Parent ]
There is no ' before frak (0.00 / 0)
The root word is frak, as in: I really frakked that post. Perhaps you meant frakkin' the familiar form of frakking.


--

The government has a defect: it's potentially democratic. Corporations have no defect: they're pure tyrannies. -Chomsky


[ Parent ]
:-) (4.00 / 1)
Yea, okay.  For some reason I remembered Chris spelling it that way, but I just checked and he did not.  I was being too clever by 0.4658.

[ Parent ]
Don't You Mean (4.00 / 1)
"too clever by .499999..."?

depending on your ultrafilter of choice, of course.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Unfortunately, I'm not that accurate. (4.00 / 1)
That should be clear by now.

[ Parent ]
Frakkin' clever, so say we all. (0.00 / 0)


--

The government has a defect: it's potentially democratic. Corporations have no defect: they're pure tyrannies. -Chomsky


[ Parent ]
This Particular Skirmish Maybe (4.00 / 4)
but that's just one little engagement.  As the paper cited suggests, this ain't going to be over for a long, long time.

Many blog posts to cross.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I meant (4.00 / 1)
debates between the Administration and its critics.

These still aren't happening enough.

sTiVo's rule: Just because YOU "wouldn't put it past 'em" doesn't prove that THEY did it.


[ Parent ]
I Don't Think The Administration Is Capable Of Debate (4.00 / 1)
Not much different from Bush in that regard.

But, by firing up a debate around them, that could be made to change.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
There is a good debate at NYT (tip of the hat to jeffbinnc's quick hit) (4.00 / 3)
Will the Geithner Plan Work?

My read is, this group, doesn't disagree so much, either with Paul Krugman (or our Paul Rosenberg) about the size of the failure, or of the eventual necessity of fail, nationalization, reorganization and decentralization: but on the time line, and possible cost. If Obama is right, this is a cheaper way to move forward, and prevents a wholesale run on the banks. (Which is a very very bad idea because , like our Paul "I do not believe in destroying the world economy in order to save (or totally transform) it."  

They are ripping us off, but except for vandalizing their houses, there isn't a way to deal out justice for this theft, but their might be  way forward through analysis and courage.

The Pauls may just be correct, and the spending in the short term may not help at all. But I don't think either are wrong about the eventual "root restructuring" that is necessary to take our economy out of the hands of arsonists and fraud artists.

If the financial markets are the "brains of capitalism" then the republican/bluedog de-regulators gave it cancer.

I will leave to another article or post as to whether that brain was sociopathic to begin with.  

--

The government has a defect: it's potentially democratic. Corporations have no defect: they're pure tyrannies. -Chomsky


[ Parent ]
Meanwhile ... (4.00 / 3)
I am increasingly coming to find the New York Times Business Pages a must read for gaining understanding of what is really going on in the economic sphere.

Several good articles today.

Top Hedge Fund Managers Do Well in a Down Year.  This one made me realize the ways that the critique made of the AIG bonuses is too shallow.

"The golden age for hedge funds is gone, but it's still three times more lucrative than working at a mutual fund and most other places on Wall Street," said Robert Sloan, managing partner of S3 Partners, a hedge fund risk management firm. "But this shouldn't pop up on the greed meter. They made money. That's what they're supposed to."

Sorry, I disagree.  The problem with this analysis is that it's still too focused on the shareholders.  Sure, bonuses for Wall Streeters who didn't succeed in making money for their firms is low-hanging fruit.  But I also reserve my right to question excessive bonuses for those who did make money for their firms.  If their actions caused thousands of Americans to lose their jobs, directly, or indirectly, I want that factored in.

The Start of a Crisis, Through the Lens of Avis -- Valuable commentary by David Leonhardt.  Putting his microscope on the problems of the Car Rental industry, Leonhardt shows how many potholes are in the road between making credits available to businesses and job creation.

A Health Plan for All and the Concerns It Raises -- Interesting and impartial account of the arguments being made for and against a government-run health care system going up against private insurers.  It again suggests to me that the Administration isn't being sharp enough in its ideological fights.  The principle of the legitimacy of competition between the government and the private sector is not being defended properly by Obama and indicates an off-ramp down the road shortly that will surrender of most if not all that is valuable in the current plan.

"There's a lot of us that feel that the public option, that the government is an unfair competitor," Senator Charles E. Grassley, a Republican from Iowa who is influential on health issues, said at the president's meeting.

Even Mr. Obama has acknowledged that those concerns are valid, and it is unclear how the government plan could be set up to give insurers a fair chance to compete.

 

Again I disagree.  If government can do something better than private industry, it should.  The Right Wing cannot be allowed to continue to trash the idea that government cannot do anything right, while whimpering about competition from the government.  Again, our side fights with one hand behind its back.

Insurers Offer to Soften a Key Rate-Setting Policy  -- This is what the insurers are offering to cut the rug out from the idea of a government plan.  It seems to be a somewhat significant concession, but the devil is in the details and we need to understand more about this option.

The industry's new position, which came as a surprise to lawmakers, could narrow the issues on which insurers are ready to fight the Democrats now controlling Congress and the White House.

In effect, insurers said they were willing to discard an element of their longstanding business model - pricing insurance policies, in part, on the basis of a person's medical condition or history.




sTiVo's rule: Just because YOU "wouldn't put it past 'em" doesn't prove that THEY did it.

. (0.00 / 0)
The problem with the Geithner plan is that even [if] it works in terms of stabilizing the economy in the short-term, it does relatively little (the uncharitable would say almost nothing) to correct either incentives or system design.

But neither does nationalization... that's sort of what's annoying about this comparison. By itself, nationalization is like playing musical chairs on the titanic. I understand the need to tie policy approach to a larger picture, but you haven't done that. You just seem to be advocating a policy because Krugman does. Even though that policy by itself does nothing to wall street. It does something to the worst of the worst, but it just ends up turning over clean banks to a less worse lot (or in the case of the guy that bought First National Bank of Nevada's debt from the FDIC, a worse guy that hadn't been caught yet)... doing nothing to keep us from going through this situation again in 10 years as they grow and take over the market.

The main difference between a pragmatist and an ideologue is that when asked for chicken or pork, the pragmatist chooses chicken, the ideologue chooses steak. Steak is great and all, doesn't mean you're going to fuckin get it.

So in that sense, you get the feeling of shortsightedness and knee jerk reactionary bullshit to the people that pan Geithner's plan. I mean, Krugman's main critique was political i.e. that Geitner's plan sets us back in political capital, not that it hurts us or makes us worse off economically. And as a guy that has very little faith in Krugman's political acumen I tend to roll me eyes at people that equate what Krugman advocates as the only way to approach things before all is lost.


Fine, let someone refute Krugman. (4.00 / 4)
"America is a capitalist country" doesn't count as a refutation.  That's about as much as I've heard from any defender of the administration. The argument against Krugman is politics-based just as much as Krugman's argument is.


sTiVo's rule: Just because YOU "wouldn't put it past 'em" doesn't prove that THEY did it.

[ Parent ]
The problem (0.00 / 0)
with Krugman is his call for nationalization is that he provides no details. He paints it being as simple as 1-2-3. It wouldn't be. He also doesn't tell you that it would cost as many and probably more in dollars than the plans he refutes. He also fails to mention that his plan...:
* Takeover the banks
* Purge their books of the questionable assets
* Payoff a lot of their debt
* and then sell the cleaned up/debt free bank to investors

...would likely be sold to the same people you just took it over from. Sweet deal. If I am a business owner in trouble I'd take that deal all day long. Tell me to step aside while you purge the bad and leave nothing but good and me and my investors buy it back for a song and then do a new IPO and get friggin rich! Bring it on. Here are the keys and my phone number, I'm raising the cash now.

Now of course that would piss a lot of people off. But that is what would happen. And why would that piss people off? Because all this outrage while couched in which is the best plan is not about which is the best plan at all. It is about wanting to take that bast*rds down who caused all of this by  taking away their banks. People think that is the ultimate payback. Until of course you deal with the ultimate outcome which is they buy it back and get rich all over again.


[ Parent ]
And oh yes (0.00 / 0)
there is also that little detail of how nationalization would purge billions of dollars from the stock market and 401k's of the little guy, crash world stock markets, purge huge sums from world banks and from state and local retirement accounts, etc, and just devastate any faith people had in the financial sector, which like it or not, without a strong financial sector capitalism could not survive.

Just a small a detail but one worth thinking about. One that Krugman doesn't much care about.


[ Parent ]
Don't Look Now, But (4.00 / 2)
that "strong financial sector" thingie?

Gone With The Wind!

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Nice (0.00 / 0)
you ignore all the downsides I listed to your argument. Big surprise!

Hey it's like if someone posts things you can't refute then just ignore them because if you do that then the entire world will think they don't exist as a reality.


[ Parent ]
Krugman Doesn't Tell You That (4.00 / 2)
because it's a lie.

Pretty simple, really.

If that's how nationalization worked, the banks wouldn't be fighting it.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Saying it is a lie (0.00 / 0)
does not make it so. Calling something a lie and not providing any kind of argument is not an argument.

There is a very small universe of people who know how to run banks. Common sense says people out of that universe will be the people running the new 'clean' banks. You won't be. I won't be. Krugman et all won't be. The investors in 'clean' banks will very likely include management. The government is not going turn down anyone who has the money and the top bid and has the experience to run it.

You say:

"If that's how nationalization worked, the banks wouldn't be fighting it."

Nationalization is separate from selling the bank. Nationalization is the process of cleaning it up. Selling it comes after that. Two separate processes run by the same government.

Banks like BofA don't want nationalization because they are solvent and they are looking to takeover banks or seized bank assets themselves. Their own Merrill Lynch analysts tell you that.

If Citi shows the profit in the first quarter they claim they will be showing, and I think they will, then they will not be a nationalization target either for good reason. The goal here is healthy banks, period. If they can grow their way back into health with the assistance of the government then that is what they will be allowed to do. The assistance of approximately 2 trillion in questionable assets removed from banks balance sheets will help them in that respect. Plus it is designed to create a further market for even more of those assets.


[ Parent ]
Yup, Lies (0.00 / 0)
The FDIC takes over banks all the time.  There is nothing terribly difficult or exotic about the process, despite your attempt to make it seem so.

As for the new banks that would result, there would be very good reasons to break them up into smaller banks, as this whole "too big to fail" thingie really hasn't worked out so well, after all.

In fact, you might not even need new banks.  Just chop the old ones into enough small pieces, and sell those separately to more well-behaved largish, but not steroid-maddened banks.

Thus, the narrowed "how can they possibly do this?" options you present are a figment of your imagination, not an honest representation of the actual realworld options that exist.

So, yeah, like I said up front: lies.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
What are you a broken record? (0.00 / 0)
I just love you guys who have no argument. You post something and then someone like me responds to it and you conveniently ignore the actual response that directly addresses what you posted. I guess your point was not a point after all because you certainly don't defend it.

But thanks for putting an exclamation point of what I said in my first post - for you this is all about about wanting to take that bast*rds down. Of course when you think like that then all reason and common sense goes out the window. You know like the points I brought up that you can't refute:

"there is also that little detail of how nationalization would purge billions of dollars from the stock market and 401k's of the little guy, crash world stock markets, purge huge sums from world banks and from state and local retirement accounts"

Of course you have no problem hurting those people as long as you get yours, right?.

Thus, the narrowed "how can they possibly do this?" options you present are a figment of your imagination, not an honest representation of the actual realworld options that exist.

Really! Then taking publicly traded companies worth billions in market cap as described to you and chopping them up into non-publicly traded companies and devastating all the people holding stock I mentioned above is a real world option to you? The empathy! Which real world do you live in anyway? Don't say the progressive world because I don't know any progressives that want to contribute to the further wiping out of people's remaining retirement when most of them are complaining about people getting wiped out of a huge portion of their retirement already. But you have no problem with that, right?. You are more than willing to pile on and whoever has to suffer for your joy is just fine with you. Is that right? You don't mind wiping people out because it is for a good cause, right? LOL

You see I like to think you don't want to do that at all which is the reason you didn't address it the first time. I like to think that you just didn't think things through about who would get hurt if you and Krugman got what you wanted. But now that you know who will get hurt will that stop you? Unfortunately no it won't.

You will go ahead with you unthinking proposition if for no other reason you know that what you are screaming about will likely never happen. So in the end this is all about a scream even if it doesn't accomplish a damned thing.

Well scream on brother, scream on. It's a fools errand.


[ Parent ]
Just one question (0.00 / 0)
Market cap. What was GM's market cap in 1960? In 2000? What is it now? I think that your concerns, while real enough, fail to take into account that much of your market cap was an illusion in the first place. Thanks to these AIG assholes, and other assholes like Jack Welch, we're all gonna take a haircut -- a big one. Should we continue the charade just to save the unsecured creditors at AIG, or the shareholders of Citi -- including the people paying me my pension -- while ignoring the guy who worked for GM for 35 years, whose benefits we just wiped out without so much as a by your leave?

Is that what you're telling us?


[ Parent ]
I was talking about banks (0.00 / 0)
and nationalization and what it would do to good average hard working people. I was not talking about GM or any others.

As for market cap, yeah I think before things went into free fall the market was over valued. But that has nothing to do with banks and nationalization and peoples 401K's or pension funds beyond natural market corrections.

The differences in what I am saying is on one hand you still have investments worth something even after a natural corrections. On the other hand you nationalize and wipe out those investments completley.

No question that as a stockholder via 401k's or a pension fund participant which one you could handle dealing with and which one you could not.


[ Parent ]
I Blew Holes In Your Argument, Fool (0.00 / 0)
And you claim I'm lame because I didn't waste time demolishing every. single. claim. you made?

Interesting.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
You blew holes? (0.00 / 0)
That's a laugh. You blew smoke is what you blew.

Are you Armando's, at Talkleft, twin brother? Because your BS is exactly the same. Bluster is not an converstaion or an argument. It is a personality defect. You are two peas in a pod. Only fools would call another person a fool and expect to have any legitimacy.

Yeah you and Armando. Kindred souls. Nice roll models you emulate.

Now go make a case for blowing up some more 401K's and pension funds. Krugman thinks it is OK so it must be. Screw the teachers pensions!


[ Parent ]
Good - that's a substantive argument (0.00 / 0)
However, I would assume that the sellback price would reflect the stronger balance sheet that they would have created.

A point made in defense of Krugman was that this was what was done in the aftermath of the S&L crisis.  Are you saying that that was similarly flawed?

I'm not snarking here, just exploring.

sTiVo's rule: Just because YOU "wouldn't put it past 'em" doesn't prove that THEY did it.


[ Parent ]
Sure (0.00 / 0)
The sellback price would reflect the stronger balance sheet that they would have created. It would also reflect any damage nationalization did to the psyche of the market toward investing in banks. if the market knows that fed will step in and take everything away then is it worth what it is worth considering that risk factor? Maybe. Maybe not. But smart people would be asking that question before nationalizing.

As for the S&L's, theirs was not a derivative problem which complicates today's matter. Theirs was pure insolvency. There were many reasons for the collapse of the S&L's. Too many to go into here. I want to also point out that the Resolution Trust Corporation (RTC) used private sector "equity partnerships" to help liquidate real estate and financial assets which it inherited from the S&L's.

Now the key word to be cognizant of when talking about nationalization is "insolvent". There have already been insolvent banks nationalized during this crisis. And may likely be more as part of the plan presented Monday included nationalization as a last resort. So I'm not arguing against nationalization. I'm arguing against the blind blanket nationalization that I keep reading on blogs. I am also arguing against those who don't give Obama's plan a glimmer of hope when it is obvious that it can work up to a point which is more that we had last Friday.

Thanks for being open minded. The put you head and shoulders over many.


[ Parent ]
Good stuff. (0.00 / 0)
A great post. 'Nationalization' - as in "we already own the deciding shares of AIG" -- is not a pat answer. Asshats with as much understanding of the role the "financial playground' they work in as, I said above, cancer cares about the medulla oblongata it's , will not provide a solution.

Cancer, I might remind readers, is a group of very very successful cells, that grow wildly beyond their si, growing till the organ they are in fails, which most often takes down the body, and not ironically at all the cancer too.

What is needed is cancer prevention, and excise of the tumour, before we can expect any recovery.


--

The government has a defect: it's potentially democratic. Corporations have no defect: they're pure tyrannies. -Chomsky


[ Parent ]
Nope! (And It's Really Time You Learned To Write A Subject Line, Dude!) (4.00 / 4)
You just seem to be advocating a policy because Krugman does.

I'm advocating nationalization because (a) it has a history of working in previous crises, (b) it establishing a benchmark for further steps, which will be needed because this crises shows all the signs of being something even bigger (as the quoted passage indicates).  Geithner's plan does neither.

I mean, Krugman's main critique was political i.e. that Geitner's plan sets us back in political capital, not that it hurts us or makes us worse off economically.

No, he's arguing both: it won't work--which hurts us and makes us worse off economically, because it delays real recovery, and it makes it harder to pass good policy, because each time you fall short, it gives the other side more ammo.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
. (0.00 / 0)
I suck at titles, so i just leave the subject alone.

No, he's arguing both: it won't work--which hurts us and makes us worse off economically, because it delays real recovery, and it makes it harder to pass good policy, because each time you fall short, it gives the other side more ammo.

But that doesn't make sense. If Obama were for nationalization, what are the steps that would happen, how long would they take, and what in the Geithner plan precludes this from happening?

Maybe I should reread Krugman, but i don't recall him ever making a time frame argument. Everyone else in the blogosphere that argued on Krugman's behalf did, but I don't remeber Krugman doing that. Why? Because there is nothing in the Geithner plan that takes away from the steps towards nationalization. And in fact some of the plan we'd have to do anyways. And Geithner is already asking for the power.


[ Parent ]
It's Krugman's (4.00 / 3)
belief that a few months down the road--after the government has wasted hundreds of billions more dollars and enriched private investors but not solved the problem--nationalization would be an even tougher sell to a public pissed about who-knows-how-many AIG-type scandals. It's clear Obama wants to preserve his capital for his budget--yup, politics--whereas Krugman believes Obama should use his capital to push the best solution to the crisis now rather than trying something that's likely to fail, then doing the right thing with, say, 52 percent approval ratings, against an emboldened GOP opposition happy to demagog and call Obama a socialist.

This notion that we'll all try this risky approach and if it doesn't work, then we'll powwow in July and nationalize is, shall we say, batshit.


[ Parent ]
Let's NOT Say Batshit (4.00 / 1)
The bats have been getting a bad rap, IMHO.

Let's say... pterodactylshit.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
. (0.00 / 0)
Today you announce you want the power to nationalize BofA, the next week congress grandstands over it and BofA collapses as shareholders pull out and it gets run on.

This isn't and cannot be an open political fight. It just doesn't work like that.


[ Parent ]
Well, sure (4.00 / 3)
You don't announce anything--you just do it.

Moreover, you do them all at once. If you bring down one bank, it'll cause a run on the equity and long-term debt of the others. So you have to figure out which are insolvent and move on all of them.

But that's true now or months from now. And I don't see why it would be easier politically to pull this off months from now, indeed it seems farfetched to claim it would be.

Moreover, the problem keeps getting worse. It'll require even more money down the road.  


[ Parent ]
Right (4.00 / 1)
The only reason to wait is if you want to get AIG at the same time, and need separate authority to do that.  (Though, already owning 80%, that might not really be necessary.)

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Authority (4.00 / 1)
You don't announce anything--you just do it.

You describe my understanding as of a week or so ago.  There is one little flaw in this plan, though, they don't have the authority to do it!

There is almost no way to not announce your plans while simultaneously getting approval through congress.  None of these institutions are traditional FDIC banks anymore; deregulation messed that all up.

I say "almost" because there is one way.  Basically, you'd have to ask congress for more power in a generic way while actively promoting another plan.  (Hey, wait a minute...)


[ Parent ]
Oh, so this (4.00 / 2)
huge subsidy to banks and private investors is mere cover for what they really want to do. And I've got some great "legacy" mortgages I'd like to sell you...

Look, he could've sought this authority weeks ago. Short of that, he could've sought this authority without pushing a flawed plan that will takes months to shake out.


[ Parent ]
Backup plan (4.00 / 2)
Oh, so this huge subsidy to banks and private investors is mere cover for what they really want to do.

That would be stating it too strongly.  I don't think they want to nationalize at all.  I even think they think they wont have to, outside of AIG.

But I think plan to nationalize AIG.  And I think they will nationalize the others if they have to.  Personally, I think they will have to, but that's me.

These guys also buy in completely to the idea that you have to be careful about what you say about jittery markets, which mean they won't tell us they have a backup plan.

But their actions point towards a backup plan.

The analogy I keep bringing up is Wes Clark's "force as a last resort".  Clark will go to war if he has to; in fact, he has.


[ Parent ]
I wish (4.00 / 2)
And I've got some great "legacy" mortgages I'd like to sell you...

I wish.  With 90% government subsidy, I'm all in!  (Or would be if I had any all to in.)


[ Parent ]
Then Just Use (4.00 / 3)
the first few words of your first sentence.  Surely you've seen this done before?

(1) Some nationalization could happen anyway.  But AIG, for example, is not a bank, so FDIC can't nationalize.  There needs to be new law to allow nationalization of any financial institution.

(2) Krugman has made the argument, not in terms of time-frame, but in terms of political capital.  The time-frame aspect is mostly implicit: the longer you wait the worse things get, so of course you should act yesterday.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
None of these are banks (0.00 / 0)
None of the institutions in question are banks anymore.  They all just have a banking division.

[ Parent ]
OK. I Thought Most, But Not All Were (4.00 / 1)
but, either way, it's really beside the point, as the key ingredient here is political will, and it's pretty damn obvious Obama doesn't have it.  He's to the right of Lindsay fucking Graham on this, for God's sake!

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Besides the point?? (0.00 / 0)
You gave a +4 rating to the comment "you don't announce anything--you just do it," but you think the fact that isn't possible is besides the point?

This is the problem I have with so many in this conversation.  People keep acting like nationalization is easy, it's done all the time yada, yada, yada and completely ignore the fact that what is being discussed is different than what the FDIC normally does.

Heck, even Lugren, who is the guy that nationalized the banks in Sweden, says the issues now are harder.

However, Lundgren said that Obama was correct in observing that a similar nationalization scheme might be more difficult given America's size and preeminent role in world finance compared to Sweden.

I even believe receivership is the way to go.  I really do; scout's honer. But you guys just keep ignoring freakin reality.  Ideology is only part of the issue, not the whole thing.

Yes, it is true that Obama, Geithner and company don't want to seize the large banks and will do what the can to avoid it.  But that isn't the same thing unwilling.  Why do you think they are asking for the power?  Just for kicks?

My guess is they have already made up their minds on AIG.  I'll be shocked if AIG doesn't go through formal receivership before the end of the year.  For the rest, it depends upon how plan A works out.


[ Parent ]
Sorry, I'm Afraid We've Gotten Our Wires Crossed (4.00 / 1)
There's two different issues here, at least from my perspective, which you seem to have interpreted as one.  And clarity between the two--it now seems obvious in retrospect--depends on clarifying a third point.

(1) The "just do it" issue pertains to "do it" vs. announce in advance you're going to shut someone down, thereby causing chaos re that particular institution.  

(2) The "besides the point" issue pertains to the fact that Obama/Giethner aren't really interested in nationalizing anything, thus making our collective uncertainty about how many principals are banks rather moot.

(3) The third clarifying point is that merely seeking broad authority to nationalize non-banks doesn't necessarily point the finger at anyone--with the possible exception of AIG, and you seem to agree that they're done for anyway.

Better?

Now, to the second issue.  How hard is it pragmatically?  I'm not pretending it's a breeze.  Obviously, when you're in the "too big to fail" category, it's different than the "we close them every week" category.

But (1) if you send all sorts of "we really don't want to do this" signals then you only make it exponentially worse, (2) in part by raising ideological bogey men, (3) after which it's really not fair to be blaming the likes of me for misrepresenting the role of ideology in all this.

Now, whether you agree with all that or not, I hope you'll agree that it's a good faith argument, and I'm not trying to be disingenuous.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
oh yeah (0.00 / 0)
I forgot to add this in the diatribe above.  I don't actually know all are not banks, but that is my understanding.

And as you point out in this very diary, receivership is not about liberal versus conservative, so the Lindsay Graham thing would be incorrect.

Heck, the conservative thing to do is just let them all collapse, like Bush did with Lehman Brothers.


[ Parent ]
Imaginary Reality (0.00 / 0)
And as you point out in this very diary, receivership is not about liberal versus conservative, so the Lindsay Graham thing would be incorrect.

True enough, in reality.  But Obama's not playing in reality. He's playing in "they're all DFHs" land.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
arent we all a little conservative, (4.00 / 1)
we like government to be a safety net but no one wants government in every aspect of our lives, telling us what to do-on the other hand maybe that was just conservative spin, bc i cannot see democrats saying "we want to make all your choices for you", hmmm

whatever you think people owe you, that is what you owe people

I like democracy. I am big defender of democracy. (4.00 / 1)
I sometimes replace 'government' in sentences with 'democracy'.

Democracy is more than a safety net. It is the root of how we exist as a people. Throughout history we have fought tooth and nail for the right to govern ourselves.

I don't want 'democrats' telling anyone 'what to do'.

I want a democracy.


--

The government has a defect: it's potentially democratic. Corporations have no defect: they're pure tyrannies. -Chomsky


[ Parent ]
Yes, Of Course (4.00 / 3)
This is clearly a more general fact: much of what movement conservatives claim to abhor as "socialist," or whatever, more grounded every-day conservatives recognize as fully consistent with their principles.

My problem with Obama is not that he reaches out to conservatives.  It's that he reaches out to the phonies, does so mostly for the wrong reasons, and in the wrong ways.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
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