The Ethics of Afghanistan

by: Chris Bowers

Thu Apr 09, 2009 at 21:41


There are many ways to answer that question. However, the primary way the question should be approached is ethical: will our continued, escalated military action in Afghanistan (and Pakistan) prevent more human suffering than it causes?

As utilitarian, and even crass, as it may sound, questions about whether we will save more lives or cause more deaths, whether a refugee crisis outweighs the mass denial of civil rights, and if there will be a net increase or decrease of poverty as a result of the escalation are actually the humanist questions that must be addressed before determining if the escalation is just. After all, if we are causing a net increase in fatalities, injuries, refugees and poverty, then it becomes virtually impossible to justify the escalation by any standard. Or, at least, any standard that considers human life to be both valuable and equal, regardless of its place of origin.

Obviously, these are very difficult questions to answer. However, in his speech justifying our military escalation in Afghanistan, President Obama offered the potential benefits, all of which were framed in the context of reduced human suffering. As such, they serve as a useful starting point for discussion on this topic.

Many people in the United States - and many in partner countries that have sacrificed so much - have a simple question: What is our purpose in Afghanistan ? After so many years, they ask, why do our men and women still fight and die there? They deserve a straightforward answer.

So let me be clear: al Qaeda and its allies - the terrorists who planned and supported the 9/11 attacks - are in Pakistan and Afghanistan . Multiple intelligence estimates have warned that al Qaeda is actively planning attacks on the U.S. homeland from its safe-haven in Pakistan . And if the Afghan government falls to the Taliban - or allows al Qaeda to go unchallenged - that country will again be a base for terrorists who want to kill as many of our people as they possibly can. (...)

But this is not simply an American problem - far from it. It is, instead, an international security challenge of the highest order. Terrorist attacks in London and Bali were tied to al Qaeda and its allies in Pakistan , as were attacks in North Africa and the Middle East, in Islamabad and Kabul . If there is a major attack on an Asian, European, or African city, it - too - is likely to have ties to al Qaeda's leadership in Pakistan . The safety of people around the world is at stake.

For the Afghan people, a return to Taliban rule would condemn their country to brutal governance, international isolation, a paralyzed economy, and the denial of basic human rights to the Afghan people - especially women and girls. The return in force of al Qaeda terrorists who would accompany the core Taliban leadership would cast Afghanistan under the shadow of perpetual violence.

Do these benefits outweigh the human duffering caused by the invasion? In the extended entry, I attempt to answer that question.

Chris Bowers :: The Ethics of Afghanistan
Military intervention hasn't reduced terrorism, but has killed over 9,000
President Obama's first rationale for that continuing the war in Afghanistan is that it will save lives by reducing terrorism. This claim is dubious, at best. So far, as a result of the American military intervention, there have been a minimum of 8, 172 civilian deaths , and 1,128 coalition military fatalities. That is a minimum death toll of 9,300 deaths caused by the invasion. Maximum estimates are 28,892, not including 4,576 deaths among Afghanistan security forces, since such deaths are not clearly caused by our military intervention.

By contrast, it isn't clear that the military intervention has saved any lives at all. Since the start of our intervention, deaths caused by terrorism worldwide have actually increased by several thousand lives a year. If the military intervention hasn't caused a decline in deaths caused by terrorism, but has caused at least 9,300 deaths in Afghanistan (and many more in Pakistan), it appears fairly cut and dry that the military intervention has been a significant death producer rather than reducer.

Short-term reduction of violence within Afghanistan
It is possible that, after a short-term spike, coalition military intervention did actually reduce the overall violence within Afghanistan itself. Around September 11th, the Taliban and the North Alliance were estimated to have about 56,000 troops in the field combined. Further, mass killings had taken place, in once instance claiming over 4,000 lives.

However, while this lowers the overall net human death toll from the military intervention, the Afghanistan civil war has slowly reignited since 2002, and people are still dying from it. The temporary reduction in violence has not led to a long-term stoppage. As such, the military intervention has still probably caused more deaths than it prevented.

What about the future?
One objection raised to the previous two sections of this argument is that while the intervention has upped the death toll so far, an escalation will reduce the death toll in the future. This seems highly unlikely, both given the track record of the first seven years of the war, and given the increased frequency of increased drone attacks:

AMERICAN drone attacks on the border between Afghanistan and Pakistan are causing a massive humanitarian emergency, Pakistani officials claimed after a new attack yesterday killed 13 people.  The dead and injured included foreign militants, but women and children were also killed when two missiles hit a house in the village of Data Khel, near the Afghan border, according to local officials.

As many as 1m people have fled their homes in the Tribal Areas to escape attacks by the unmanned spy planes as well as bombings by the Pakistani army.  So far 546,000 have registered as internally displaced people (IDPs) according to figures provided by Rabia Ali, spokesman for the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees, and Maqbool Shah Roghani, administrator for IDPs at the Commission for Afghan Refugees.

Jamil Amjad, the commissioner in charge of the refugees, says the government is running short of resources to feed and shelter such large numbers. A fortnight ago two refugees were killed and six injured in clashes with police during protests over shortages of water, food and tents.

These drone attacks are going to kill a lot more civilians than they will save. In fact, they are a form of terrorism themselves. Given that we are only going to increase these attacks in the coming weeks and months, there is little prospect that the escalation will actually reduce the number of deaths in Afghanistan (and Pakistan).

Military intervention has been a net positive for refugees
One aspect of human suffering in Afghanistan that President Obama did not directly cite as a rationale for military escalation in Afghanistan was refugees. He might have been well-served by doing so, because the military intervention has been a net positive for refugees in Afghanistan. Despite the drone attacks described above, and despite at least 200,000 civilians being displaced by the heavy bombing in the first few months of the war, over 5,000,000 million Afghani refugees have repatriated since the start of the U.S.-led military intervention. This represents roughly two-thirds of all Afghani refugees from before the war.

While the damage caused by the drone attacks is obviously unjustifiable terrorism of the highest order, overall the coalition military intervention has improved the refugee situation in the region.

Human Rights
Even before 9/11, as a younger man I wondered if it would be justifiable to overthrow the Taliban because of their massive human rights abuses. Many other people have clearly weighed this question too, given that the abuses of the Taliban have been cited as a reason to intervene militarily from September 12th, 2001, to President Obama in the speech quoted above.

Without question, human rights have increased in most areas of Afghanistan since the military intervention. However, they are still limited by our own standards, and appear to be heading in the wrong direction. There are improvements, but how stable those improvements actually are, and how those improvements can be weighed alongside the fatality and refugee situations, is very difficult to say.

Conclusion
Here is a sticky question: do the human rights improvements, plus the net return of about three to four million refugees, outweigh the roughly 20,000 excess deaths? That isn't an easy question to answer. However, it still serves as a decent starting point for determining whether the war in Afghanistan is justified. It certainly is much better than geo-political strategic rationales.

Largely because it is unlikely the balance of human suffering will change much, ethical determinations on whether the escalation is justified are connected to the overall question of whether the war is justified. While my gut reaction tells me that it isn't worth it, I can honestly say that I don't know the answer to the basic question. Are the human rights improvements, plus the net return of about three to four million refugees, worth the roughly 20,000 excess deaths in Afghanistan? As I said, that isn't an an easy question to answer, but it probably is a question everyone should answer before deciding where they stand on this war.


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Read up on this stuff Chris ...your way off (2.67 / 3)
There is no Al Queda....let's get that straight...it's a myth...an imaginary enemy.

The Taliban are not Al Queda and the Taliban had nothing to do with 911 in all liklihood.

This is crazy.

There is no reason to be in Iraq or Afghanistan or anywhere else.

The Iraqi's and Afghans are treated as less than human. They bear a remarkable resemblance to Human Beings in the eyes of America. So when the "Villagers" are grazing in their fields and bombs blow them up along with their donkeys....Donkeys....Afghani's....what the difference.

I'm surprise to see you write this way. I mean it shows your really tied in to Network News and trapped mentally by the newspeak and all the gibberish about "saving lives"...

Obama doesn't care about saving lives....

This is purely a political war and a war that supports the Military...yes...Industrial Complex and all the crazy NEO CONS who LOVE OBAMA because he's expanding Bush's war against villagers.


Top Ten Ways the US is Turning Afghanistan into Iraq (4.00 / 2)
Juan Cole has made a list...

1. Exaggerating the threat
2. The US has actually only managed to install a fundamentalist government in Afghanistan, which is rolling back rights of women and prosecuting blasphemy cases.
3. The US is building a mass of hardened bases costing over $1 bn. in Afghanistan.
4. It begins. The US is creating local militias in Wardak called the Afghan Public Protection Force.
5. Now thousands of private security contractors (i.e. mercenaries) will be hired in Afghanistan.
6. The secretary of defense is predicting that the US military will be in Afghanistan indefinitely and will only achieve limited goals there. (!)
7. An attempt by officials in the Obama administration to replace Guantanamo with Bagram in Afghanistan has been shot down by a Federal judge.
8. The president is corralling a coalition of the reluctant for troop contributions in Afghanistan.
9. While militaries spend tens of billions on fighting disgruntled Pashtun tribesmen, a fifth of pregnant women or women with newborns are malnourished in Afghanistan.
10. A new Friedman unit. It was always the "next six months" that would be "crucial" for Iraq. It is now "this year" that is crucial for Afghanistan.

I sympathize with Chris Bowers attempt to sympathize with Obama and look at this thing from both sides, but one word is really enough to summarize the American occupation of Afghanistan...

Insane!


[ Parent ]
Human Rights (0.00 / 0)
Great post.

As for whether war is an appropriate tool for enforcing human rights...

I can't say categorically that it never should be. But there is serious danger there.  Obviously human rights can be used to justify a war that is about other things (i.e. Iraq.) And our views of other countries tend to be as much a product of American strategic interests as they are about what actually goes on.

More importantly, there are plenty of things the U.S. government could do at home to expand human rights.

Not to mention the numerous human rights violating countries the government supports, or the number of ways US policies contribute to human rights violations.  Simply put, there are any number of ways we could be actively promoting human rights that don't involve war.

I prefer doing all those things first. While there are hypothetical scenarios where I can imagine war promoting human rights, it is far easier to see the possibility that such claims will be used in the service of other concerns.

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Drones (0.00 / 0)
I don't see their use as a form of terrorism.

Things You Don't Talk About in Polite Company: Religion, Politics, the Occasional Intersection of Both

got any reasons for that? (4.00 / 2)
They are cuasing thousands of civilians to be displaced, and killing hundreds. People are running away from these things in droves, leaving their homes behind.

Not only is that terrorism, but ut is rather extreme terrorism.


[ Parent ]
I don't think you read the article (4.00 / 1)
Most of the deaths are caused by the Pakistani army, not the drones.  Thus, I assume most of the displacement is caused by the army and not the drones, a well.  

The headline is inaccurate.  The beginning of the article is slanted to make it seem like drones are causing most of the damage, yet the primary anecdote is of someone fleeing the army on the ground and there is no reference to any named person fleeing specifically a drone attack.

Things You Don't Talk About in Polite Company: Religion, Politics, the Occasional Intersection of Both


[ Parent ]
When the Israelis were carrying out "targeted assasinations" (4.00 / 3)
some of us wondered whether civilized societies judged people and blew them and their families up without any kind of process.

Now the US is doing just this on a grand scale, with little indication that it can even justify the label "targeted."

Of course this is terrorism. And there is very little history that suggests that you can subjugate your enemies (unless you kill all of them) by blasting them from the sky.

Can it happen here?


[ Parent ]
Air war and asymmetry (0.00 / 0)
Actually, a solely air-based campaign is what Clinton used to force Serbia out of Kosovo.

Of course, what we're dealing with in Afghanistan/Pakistan is non-state or pseudo-state actors (Taliban/Al Qaeda/Pashtun tribes) with very little infrastructure to begin with, so the situations are different. But it is possible to win a war based on air power alone (something of which I too was incredibly skeptical at the time).

The problem really is that America still hasn't adapted to asymmetric warfare, and until it does, we will continue to have these problems.


[ Parent ]
being attacked by people that are hundreds or thousands (0.00 / 0)
of miles away, secure in their bunker well beyond any form of protection you might be able to muster is NOT terrorism?

If nothing else, it has taken all the honor out of fightign a war. If all you did was sit in a bunker and fire weapons on a computer screen, am I still expected to call you a "hero"?


"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
This post feels to Cherry picked (4.00 / 1)
Equating the rise in terrorism to Afghanistan an intervention seen even within the Islamic world as justified, and leaving out Iraq which certainly wasn't seen as justified. That makes me feel a bit uneasy.

Comparing the aftermath of a single campaign to years of continuing operations, also feels a bit like stretching.

My own view is that because of neglect and bumbling we cannot know if increased intervention will help. At the same time without increasing the intervention we will never know. So increase now, but watch it like a hawk. Keep in mind that this will be a generational commitment and we must demand clear reasonable and near term goals before the new year or this commitment should be deferred to another generation and a different coalition.  


So you think (0.00 / 0)
we should engage in war (let's drop euphemisms like "intervention") for a generation before we can assess whether war can achieve the goal of terror reduction?

There are other, less destructive ways to analyze the question.  Are there historical examples where war successfully brought an end to terrorism? Is it likely?  

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[ Parent ]
An intervention in an ongoing war (0.00 / 0)
Let us not skip the pre-conditions either.

As long as we don't fire and forget?

You ask for historical examples. Give me a definition of terrorism and I'll come back with some. But be aware the examples will be of the nature where a war made things less bad. The military is a blunt instrument and can at best set up conditions for improvement. The military cannot impose a solution unless you choose to create a more brutal state.

But something you need to answer is were our Wars in the Balkans successful? Are the Balkans better off then if we hadn't intervened? As messy as the aftermath was.


[ Parent ]
The Balkans were better before (4.00 / 1)
the US intervened - but that happened long before the massive aerial bombing. The actions of the US and the EU helped cause the very problems we cited to justify the war.  We killed massive numbers of people. The terms of peace went well beyond any humanitarian concerns to impost all sorts of restrictions on Serbia in areas unrelated to the justifications given for war.

War is good at destroying. That's it.

Intervention in a war in still war.  When its truly justified, people don't shy away from using the word. Our collective unwillingness to talk about it in frank terms is telling.

Support a Pennsylvania Progressive for Governor - Joe Hoeffel


[ Parent ]
That's not all (4.00 / 1)
"War is good at destroying. That's it. "

For some its a way of life, for others a way to make money.

"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
Ididn't say afghanistan caused more terrorism (0.00 / 0)
I just said it didn't reduce it. The numbers went up after the intervention. Whether that was caused by afghanistan is unclear. However, if one of the goals was to reduce terrorism, clearly it failed to do so.

Most of what you write at the end strikes me as extremely abstract. What relevance do terms like "generational committement" and "clear reasonable and near term goals" really mean? When you start thinking about thousands of people actually dying, none of that really means much of anything to me. It sounds like a lot of abstractions to ignore what is really going on.


[ Parent ]
I don't think that's a valid argument (0.00 / 0)
The numbers went up after the intervention.

But that doesn't meant the numbers wouldn't have been even higher if we hadn't intervened. Obviously, it would be specious to say the numbers would certainly be higher if we hadn't gone into Afghanistan; there'd be no way to disprove the claim. But given the circumstances - an obviously emboldened Al Qaeda with state sponsorship and demonstrably capable of carrying out mass terrorism on US soil - I think there are good reasons, in this case, to think the toll from terrorism might indeed have been higher if we hadn't interrupted Al Qaeda's operations.


[ Parent ]
The problem (0.00 / 0)
is that the massive aerial bombing campaign the US waged against Afghanistan was not the most targeted way of interrupting their operations. Plenty of their operations have been planned in countries friendly to the US. There's no evidence that state sponsorship, safe havens or whatever, play any role.

You are positing hypothetical to support your argument, but the research on the causes of terrorism and the processes by which it ends counsel against this sort of response.

Support a Pennsylvania Progressive for Governor - Joe Hoeffel


[ Parent ]
You can argue (0.00 / 0)
That terrorism decreased post Afghanistan and pre-Iraq. Admittedly the State department numbers are self serving, but even the Rand numbers seem to show this once you classify the Afghan numbers as insurgent acts. One thing you can't argue is that the surge of terrorism incidents happened post Iraq.

Let me define my terms then. Generational we need to decide that we will remain committed to the project at least as long as it takes for the children born today to have children. Or better 20 to 30 years.

Clear and reasonable near term goals? The amount of internal and local participation in building and aid projects. The number of tips leading to successful prevention of insurgent/terrorist acts.

We can measure success on an ongoing basis. Heck the number of friendly contacts per captia when moving into a new operational area is a good measure of reputation.


[ Parent ]
Good post (4.00 / 3)
These are tough issues. Obviously the end goal is an Afghanistan with the current or better situation in terms of human rights, democracy and refugees controlled by a Afgan government that is able to keep all of those things stable without an international combat presence. In the long term it would be nice to not have any kind of international support needed but basic realities about the Afgan economy and military make that unlikely for another decade or so.

Is the surge in troops really going to help get closer to that? I don't honestly know, I don't think anyone can claim to honestly know. A majority of Afghanistan is not under the control of NATO or Afganistan's government so I guess a case can be made that the surge is needed to gain further control of the country but that will also lead to more killing which will lead to more hate and more perpetual war.

So it's a very tough issue, particularly the increase in combat forces without any clear mission or timetable. And on balance I just don't think I can support that. Increase in diplomacy? Developmental aid? Military trainers? All things I can support. A surge in combat troops and drones without a defined mission or timetable? I just can't bring myself to favor that.

It is a tough issue that I struggle with a lot but that's where I come down.  

John McCain: Beacuse lobbyists should have more power


Get Out of EVERYWHERE. Leave these people alone. (4.00 / 1)
Populista said:  "Obviously the end goal is an Afghanistan with the current or better situation in terms of human rights, democracy and refugees controlled by a Afgan government that is able to keep all of those things stable without an international combat presence. "

It's not obvious to me that the end goal is a better situation in terms of human rights etc.

Who is the United States to talk about Human Rights when Obama has Ok'd kidnapping of innocent people simply on the basis of suspicion.

Is he continuing torture, death squads? Kidnapping is torture.

You guys have to give up on these naive assumptions that the United States is somehow acting to benefit Afghanistan...to help them.

I don't think the Afghans, including the now disembodied Karzai really like Americans in Afghanistan.

But American like some commenting here, make these incredible presumptions about Afghanistan, Iraq and how they "need our help"...and "human rights"....Human rights is a political catch phrase used to intimidate nations by the United States....the USA is torturing, kidnapping, murdering, raping, poisoning and stealing worldwide...even from it's own...and you can talk about "human rights".????

Get out of Afghanistan and Iraq....America has no business, no logical reason...not even for reasons of greed to be there.

No one benefits when people are being killed in an utterly senseless war.

This is like talking about "supporting our troops" all over again in Iraq.

Do you guys EVER LEARN?


[ Parent ]
US interests and human rights not mutually exclusive (0.00 / 0)
I don't want to get into a debate on the US government's motives in Afghanistan. Just note that it's possible both that the US could act entirely out of self-interest in Afghanistan, and that the net effect of the US' actions would be an increase in human rights in that country from what they were or would be under the Taliban.

[ Parent ]
Get Out of EVERYWHERE. Leave these people alone. (4.00 / 1)
Populista said:  "Obviously the end goal is an Afghanistan with the current or better situation in terms of human rights, democracy and refugees controlled by a Afgan government that is able to keep all of those things stable without an international combat presence. "

It's not obvious to me that the end goal is a better situation in terms of human rights etc.

Who is the United States to talk about Human Rights when Obama has Ok'd kidnapping of innocent people simply on the basis of suspicion.

Is he continuing torture, death squads? Kidnapping is torture.

You guys have to give up on these naive assumptions that the United States is somehow acting to benefit Afghanistan...to help them.

I don't think the Afghans, including the now disembodied Karzai really like Americans in Afghanistan.

But American like some commenting here, make these incredible presumptions about Afghanistan, Iraq and how they "need our help"...and "human rights"....Human rights is a political catch phrase used to intimidate nations by the United States....the USA is torturing, kidnapping, murdering, raping, poisoning and stealing worldwide...even from it's own...and you can talk about "human rights".????

Get out of Afghanistan and Iraq....America has no business, no logical reason...not even for reasons of greed to be there.

No one benefits when people are being killed in an utterly senseless war.

This is like talking about "supporting our troops" all over again in Iraq.

Do you guys EVER LEARN?


[ Parent ]
In the movie W (0.00 / 0)
the Dick Cheney character spells out the reasoning quite clearly. Empire-building and the "problem" that Iran presents in blocking complete US dominance of the middle east and their natural resources.

Obama will not reverse this.

"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
Not obvious at all (0.00 / 0)
"Obviously the end goal is an Afghanistan with the current or better situation in terms of human rights, democracy and refugees controlled by a Afgan government that is able to keep all of those things stable without an international combat presence."

I think you may be falling for the rhetoric. I admit, Obama is better at selling this list of pipe-dreams than GWB, but that doesn't make it true.  Looking to history and current events in Iraq, its obvious that the Pentagon will be quite happy with a central government in Afghanistan that will allow the US to maintain its military presence in the country (and keep Iran boxed in on two sides), won't go poking around in Bagram prison, makes only half gestures on poppy eradication, and looks good on TV.
 

"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
a just war (0.00 / 0)
Since the start of our intervention, deaths caused by terrorism worldwide have actually increased by several thousand lives a year. If the military intervention hasn't caused a decline in deaths caused by terrorism, but has caused at least 9,300 deaths in Afghanistan (and many more in Pakistan), it appears fairly cut and dry that the military intervention has been a significant death producer rather than reducer.

Look, it's very unfortunate that we've had people like Dick "1%" Cheney in charge of things the last 8 years, because it makes what I'm about to argue sound less credible. But the fact is, Al Qaeda was hugely threatening to all of us before we intervened in Afghanistan, as it had been since at least the mid-90s. And indeed, they succeeded in killing 3,000 people on American soil. And further, they really did probably want to get their hands on weapons of mass destruction if they could. Not responding to this threat militarily would just not have been tenable, considering the threat of mass casualties in the US or in Europe. And just because deaths from terrorism have increased since 2001 doesn't mean that number wouldn't have been higher if we hadn't intervened.

9,300 civilian fatalities is obviously a huge deal and not to be shrugged off. But, if we are just going by consequentialist utilitarian reasoning, and solely considering those civilian casualties weighed against the potential for civilian casualties if we had not intervened, I think intervention has still been worthwhile, considering the threat that Al Qaeda posed.


Don't buy it (4.00 / 4)
We responded militarily in 2001 because we have an enormously expensive, far flung military so we thought we had a hammer.

What we needed to do was tough international law enforcement based on diplomacy and mutual respect. That's the only way to get security from threats from non-state actors. Because we had imperial fantasts in power, we responded stupidly and may never recover, sinking every further into a militaristic morass.

Can it happen here?


[ Parent ]
2001 (0.00 / 0)
I agree that law enforcement is, generally, the better approach to containing the security threat from terrorism. But how could that possibly have succeeded in Afghanistan in 2001, where the country was controlled by a government that basically gave Al Qaeda free range? Was Interpol just going to start sending swat teams into Tora Bora?

[ Parent ]
Strawman (4.00 / 2)
In this context, law enforcement refers not to who does the action, but what the action is. Do you capture people and bring them to justice, or bomb an entire country while those people escape?  


Support a Pennsylvania Progressive for Governor - Joe Hoeffel

[ Parent ]
I would just rephrase the same response (4.00 / 1)
How would any police action (in the non-euphemistic sense) have succeeded in dislodging the Taliban and crippling Al Qaeda, given the context of 2001? I would say that any such police action would have necessarily been so large in scale that it would have been comparable to our actual military invasion of Afghanistan at the time.

[ Parent ]
It's one thing to argue (4.00 / 1)
that invading Afghanistan in 2001 and tracking down Osama was a desirable goal.

It is quite another to claim that today, with Osama holed up in Pakistan, and quite effectively eluding capture, it makes sense to place a major American military presence in Afghanistan and/or Pakistan.

Throwing many tens of thousands of troops at an entire country as Obama proposes to do is likely either entirely pointless or outright counterproductive.


[ Parent ]
Forget About 911. It's not that big of a deal. Get over it. (2.00 / 2)
"Osama "holed up" in Pakistan"

Osama Bin Laden may have had nothing to do with 911, the Taliban may have nothing to do with 911. There has never been an investigation that revealed who initiated 911. There is information gained from torture, there is misinformation about the "Hijackers"...and this is factual.

America needs to forget about 911. It's just not that big of a deal, I'm sorry.

It's a big deal to 3,000 people and their families and to the rest of America is an obscene, violent, illogical, overreaction that has resulted in the deaths of 1.3 million Iraqi's and many, many other people who never had a clue as to why they were killed.

America has to stop. Stop Killing Arabs and Muslims.

This is madness. There is No Al Queda

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/d...

Of course that's the Pakistani's saying there's no Al Queda....obviously they are lying so we need to bomb them.

Is there anybody here who actually KNOWS ANYTHING ABOUT AL QUEDA?

It's a joke. It's a myth.  


[ Parent ]
Disagree again (4.00 / 2)
From what I have read the Taliban did not give AQ free range.  They were in discussions with Pakistan to turn Bin Laden over to any country other than the US, at the time the invasion began.  The Taliban didn't know about 9/11 before it happened, 9/11 went against the Taliban's interests.  There is no reason to think that the Taliban, with enough pressure from Pakistan and Saudi Arabia (where they got most of their money) would not have eventually expelled Bin Laden and his key lts.  The only thing that was off the table, if I recall, was him being given to us.  But so what?  Or rather, while I admit it would be better, all things considered, to have him tried and punished by the US, that good is nowhere near comparable to the bads this war has led to.

[ Parent ]
Al Qaeda was not hugely threatening after 9/11 (4.00 / 1)
If I recall the 9/11 commission's report correctly, it is clear that Al Qaeda did not have the resources, after 9/11, to orchestrate a significant attack again in the near future.  It took them years of planning, investment and recruitment to get 9/11 off the ground, and it only succeeded because of terribly lax security and some luck on the part of the hijackers not to have been caught beforehand.  So while it was true that they wanted to attack us again, and while it was true that they wanted weapons of mass desctruction, what isn't true is that they had the capabilities necessary to make either of those wishes come true.  It would have likely taken years just to mount another conventional attack, and there is no evidence that any state power was going to give them access to WMDs.  (I know there is that everpresent threat that unsecured Russian WMDs would fall into their hands, but the fact that Al Qaeda has pretty much had a safe haven for the last few years and hasn't used them suggests that they haven't acquired them, which suggests they aren't that easy to acquire.  After all almost any state power can pay more for WMDs, which they could then reverse engineer, than AQ can.  So unless a jihadist was somehow working at a Soviet lab and had direct access to them, it is likely those WMDs, if they exist, would go elsewhere.)

The idea that a military response was the only available response either rests on the false claim that Al Qaeda was going to be able to attack again soon, or the claim that the crime committed against us justified the military response.  The first claim is, I think, just empirically false, and the second is extremely suspect morally.  If the timeline you are working with is years, not weeks or months, diplomacy and international police action could do the job just as well.


[ Parent ]
Chris, (4.00 / 1)
Prof Walt of Harvard has a useful perspective on the Afghanistan/Pakistan situation which he discusses in two posts:

Link 1

Link 2

He basically argues that it is both unnecessary and fruitless to double down in those countries as Obama is proposing to do.


I think that once upon a time (0.00 / 0)
when Kerry was running for President, he let the truth slip out. He said:

"The war on terror is far less of a military operation and far more of an intelligence-gathering law enforcement operation."

Of course, he was pilloried endlessly for that by the right wing for asserting that employing military force was not really the paramount way to battle terrorism. It just seems like it's got to be the toughest response because so many people get pushed around or worse.

It's hard not to see the decision to continue the use of military force in Afghanistan as just a continuation of the politics of "getting tough". To see so much of our blood and treasure spent on a feckless adventure in Afghanistan is tragic, and bordering on criminal.


[ Parent ]
Chris, I think these long posts are great (4.00 / 1)
Since you mentioned you were trying something new out, I thought I should say so.

( As for the subject, I have the mixed feelings that Populista does. )  

New Jersey politics at Blue Jersey.


Would your feeling be mixed (0.00 / 0)
if Obama were a Republican?

"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
Its not difficult for a military intervention to be worth it (0.00 / 0)
Because they can decide the fate of people 50 years from now.  

India and Pakistan started warring after the British left.  Africa has all kinds of issues of genocide going on.  Israel and Palestine still going at it.

But deciding whether or not it will be worth it is a different story.  Because interventions can made the situation worse as well.

Personally I don't mind how things are going in afghanistan because it seems like it might help diffuse the situation between Pakistan and India.  Pakistan seems to be cooperating a lot more and having two countries with nukes pointed at each other cooperating is good.

So as far as human suffering goes I think the main question of afganistan is how it affects relations between India and Pakistan.

http://transgendermom.blogspot....


Less likely? (0.00 / 0)
You think the fact that the Taliban have gone from a Pakistani client state to an insurgent movement that has a real chance of overthrowing the secular institutions of Pakistan is something that makes conflict with India less likely?  

And how is the fact that Pakistan is cooperating with us against insurgents who are attacking Pakistan, got anything to do with Pakistan cooperating with India?


[ Parent ]
No military solution in Afghanistan (4.00 / 2)
The escalation of military troops in Afghanistan looks like just an expansion of the failed Bush war. The US-led military occupation of Afghanistan is the best recruiting tool that al Qaeda has.

A recent Rand study (How Terrorist Groups End: Lessons for Countering al Qa'ida) found that only 7% of terrorist organizations are defeated by the use of military force. To stop al Qaeda terrorism, we must address valid Muslim concerns: the American military and civilian presence in the Arab Peninsula which they consider holy, the unqualified US support for Israel even when Israel acts very badly, US support for states which oppress Muslims (China, India, Russia), US exploitation of Muslim oil and suppression of its price, the large US military presence in the Islamic world, and US support and protection of Arab police states.

Eight years into what will soon be the longest war the US has ever fought there is still no exit plan for Afghanistan. Until we know what the exit strategy is, Congress should not continue to fund this mess.  


Yes (4.00 / 1)
what many people never seem to acknowledge -- least of all our politicians -- is how very tenuous is the connection between the use of military force and elimination or even reduction in terrorism.

One would think that an examination of the preconditions of 9/11 itself might make this obvious. How much of the set of preconditions for 9/11 had to do with any more or less open terrorist camps Osama might have set up in Afghanistan, and how much with poor and slack law enforcement at our end?

Did the al Qaeda terrorists of 9/11 really require any training at those camps in Afghanistan? I don't know how one makes out that case. The training that they did require was what they received at the flying schools in the US they attended -- and the explicit warnings some raised as to their intents before 9/11 were ignored by the authorities. And other terrorist attacks since 9/11 have taken place by preparations made in the host country, such as those in Spain and Britain.

But we insist on throwing military force at the problem no matter the fecklessness of doing so. Why? Because with so many matters having to do with fighting crime, it feels emotionally right to find ways of inflicting punishment when evil is done. Whether the punishment is inflicted on those who deserve it, and whether it serves any useful purpose at all, is purely a secondary matter.

Take a look at Israel for some real lessons on this point.  


[ Parent ]
Exit strategy? (0.00 / 0)
Keep the war going for as long as the voters will tolerate it, then leave behind enough "residual troops" to man the permanent bases and guard the embassy.


"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
Utlitarianism is a bad theory (4.00 / 1)
I teach philosophy for a living, and in almost every class one or more students usually get frustrated enough to ask the question 'Does philosophy prove/accomplish anything?'  And my stock answer is that philosophers have a good track record of proving other philosopher's theories false.  My two standard examples are logical positivism (a view that started with some philosophers in Vienna in the 1930's and breifly became a fad with English philosophers in the 40's and 50's) and what gets called act utilitarianism.  There are all sorts of problems with both views.  I won't go into logical positivism here, because, well, who gives a shit right?

So while I don't question whether this is correct:

As utilitarian, and even crass, as it may sound, questions about whether we will save more lives or cause more deaths, whether a refugee crisis outweighs the mass denial of civil rights, and if there will be a net increase or decrease of poverty as a result of the escalation are actually the humanist questions that must be addressed before determining if the escalation is just.

I do think this just can't be the whole story.  If it were the whole story then that would amount to act utilitarianism would be a good ethical theory, and basically everyone who studies this stuff for a living (other than Peter Singer, though it is not clear if he actually believes act utilitarianism is correct or whether he advocates it because utilitarian theories which are more likely to be right are too complex to use for purposes of issue advocacy, which is his main goal.  And more power to him) agrees it isn't.

The thing that almost everyone agrees utilitarianism gets wrong are special duties.  So special duties are duties we have towards people because of relationships we have, or past ways we have hurt or helped them.  So most people think we have special duties to family and friends that we don't have to other people.  Some people think we have special duties to fellow citizens, though that is more controversial.  It is very common to think we have special duties to people we have hurt to bear the costs of redress.

And it is pretty uncontroversial in ethics that act utilitarianism has to say that we don't have any such duties.  After all sometimes promoting the greatest happiness is going to conflict with such special duties, and in such cases the utilitarian is just going to have to say 'screw the special duties'.

So there has to be more to the ethical argument than just the likely consequences.  In particular, the fact that we are partly responsible for Afghanistan being the absolute mess that it is (and by partly I only mean that we are partly responsible for what happened there in the 1980s and 1990s, while we are much closer to fully responsible for what has gone wrong since the invasion).  It is plausible that we have a special duty to make sure Afghanistan gets back on is feet.  This duty can't be ignored, nor is it clearly trumped by arguments from possible or even likely bad consequences.  

Now in the end I agree with Chris about what the right answer is and why.  The reason I agree is that even though I think we have such special duties, it looks like it is just impossible that we can actually meet them.  Given the opposition that we engender just by being there, it doesn't look like we can make up for our sins in the region.  Even a good faith effort to try to rebuild Afghanistan (something that I don't think has happened yet) is going to just keep tearing the country apart.  Our presence helps sustain a violent nationalist movement that is unfortunately also committed to deeply morally disgusting social policies.  The longer we stay the stronger they get, and the stronger they get the less likely we can actually make up for what we have done.  Other organizations and states can do better in helping Afghanistan than we can, and while there are certain ways we can support such organizations and states, there are certain ways that we cannot, without also destroying their standing in the country.

So I think all the considerations Chris brings up are important, but I think, in order to make the full ethical case for withdrawal, you have to talk about our special duties to Afghan civilians, and you have to make the case that we cannot actually meet them.  Given that we cannot, and given that trying to causes so much harm, it looks like issues related to the consequences have to carry the debate.  But if you just talk about the consequences, and don't mention historical debts we have incurred, your argument will lose a lot of people who are sensitive to the fact that most of what troubles Afghan civilians today is of our making.


Excellent point (0.00 / 0)
It is plausible that we have a special duty to make sure Afghanistan gets back on is feet.  This duty can't be ignored, nor is it clearly trumped by arguments from possible or even likely bad consequences.  

I think you're conflating some sort of American involvement or presence, which might well be part of a special duty (regardless of whether this duty can be met) and war making, which I don't think could be. Too often, discussion over this issue, along with many others, is put in overly stark terms - will we be at war, or will we abandon them?  But these choices don't cover the whole ground.

Support a Pennsylvania Progressive for Governor - Joe Hoeffel


[ Parent ]
the idea is (0.00 / 0)
that you can't get Afghanistan back on its feet, or back to at least the level of development it was at prior to the Soviet invasion, unless you get rid of the Taliban.  So, I think, if America were going to be the one to get Afghanistan back on its feet, America would have to get rid of the Taliban.  And while I don't think we can do that through any means, military or not, lots of people think we can do it through military means.  So those people are going to have an argument, from special duties, for us staying.  So I think the argument against staying needs to both recognize the argument from special duties as gettin the moral facts correct, but then argue that it gets the empirical facts wrong, specifically the empirical question of whether we can actually destroy or even significantly weaken the Taliban.

Also I do worry that, given our in large part deserved reputation as oil hungry warmongering imperialists, any help we offer is going to do nothing but deligitimize whatever organization on the ground accepts our help.  So I really do worry that it might be war or nothing, and that the responsible choice is that we do nothing and leave the reconstruction of Afghanistan to other interested parties.  I would be pleased as punch if this weren't so however, because letting other people do it strikes me as a great moral failing.


[ Parent ]





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