"Now No Laughing Off Set Or I Will Lose It. I'm Only Barely Making It Through As It Is."

by: Paul Rosenberg

Sat Apr 11, 2009 at 12:15


That was Rachel Maddow yesterday during the first of two segments she did on "Tea-bagging."  And it's true.  The stuff she was talking about is virtually parody-proof.  The folks writing the scripts for the GOP base these days are better than the folks at SNL.  By a mile.

Yesterday, David wrote a very strong diary, "Are We Making Irrelevant Conservatives More Relevant?" in which he expanded on a discussion he had had with Rachel on the radio show he is guest-hosting.  And he made a good argument questioning the wisdom of continuing to focus so much on political figures who wield no real political power.  It's an important argument, and we definitely need to question whether we're not just doing the same old thing we've been doing, simply because it's familiar and it feels good.  But I think there's something more that needs to be considered as well.

Paul Rosenberg :: "Now No Laughing Off Set Or I Will Lose It. I'm Only Barely Making It Through As It Is."
Here's a key part of David's argument:

First and foremost, as said above, most of these conservative targets of our ire are absolutely irrelevant - indeed, the only way they remain relevant is because we're attacking them. The way to keep these extremists down is, more often than not, to ignore them.

Second, we have other more important battles to fight. Some readers ask me why I spend so much time trying to pressure, cajole, and criticize the Obama administration and congressional Democrats. The answer is based in empirical math: The Obama administration and congressional Democrats - not Republicans or the right - have the vast majority of power to actually change laws. They control the presidency and have huge majorities in Congress. Sure, Republicans still have that one extra Senate vote to filibuster stuff, but by and large, if we win the battle over progressive policies inside the Democratic Party, we're most of the way there in the battle to see those policies pass into law.

I give Rachel a lot of credit - she's one of the only people on television to understand this latter point. She's one of the only voices on television who doesn't just carry water for Democrats, but actually explicitly goes after what she calls "conservadems." I also give her a lot of credit for acknowledging publicly that she thinks about this strategic question of whether she's helping the Right, more than hurting it.

I hope all of us - including, I might add, me - can think hard about this as we move forward in our work. I hope, for instance, President Obama thinks twice before ever using his platform and his presidency to build up the relevance of the legislatively irrelevant House Republican Caucus again.

While I think David's argument is an important one--and I particularly think we always need to question whether or not we're doing what we're doing out of comfort and inertia--I think there are two important reasons why I have to disagree.  In saying so, I don't mean to invalidate his argument, though.  We should be much more thoughtful about how and why we engage in criticizing conservatives and Republicans at this point in time.  I'm just saying that we shouldn't stop, for two basic reasons.

The first reason is that we ignored them before as irrelevant, only to have them come back and bite us in the ass.  It happened after Goldwater got blown out in the 1964 election.  And it happened when Newt Gingrich was a back-bencher using C-SPAN as a national soapbox, giving speeches to an empty chamber, which Tip O'Neil thought to counter by occasionally panning the cameras to show that there was no one in Congress listening to Newt.  The point is, they are not going away if we don't pay attention to them, or under-estimate their power to come back.  I'm older than David, and I remember the complacency that Democrats felt then.  I know that's far from our #1 problem today, but it would be devastatingly ironic to have it play any role in allowing a conservative comeback once again, today.

The second reason I disagree is that I believe that highlighting the sort of absurdity that Rachel has focused on can be used to make it harder for Obama and the rest of the Versailles Dems to keep collaborating with and empowering the Republicans.  And this is what we need to give a lot more thought to.

As an illustration, here's some of what Rachel had to say in her other segment on "tea-bagging" yesterday, which played off against a video of a Cleveland, February 27th 'tea-bagging' event (transcription is mine):

"A few themes emerge: down with Obama"...

That's theme #1, Obama's not actually President.  He's not even American.  Down with Obama.

Second discernible theme, oddly, a dislike of the federal reserve.... You see a lot of Ron Paul signage.... Let's just have private banks, like Citigroup, That will be much more stable.

Third discernible theme, taxes.  Not like the Boston Tea Party, the whole taxation without representation thing, just 'no' to taxes, full stop.  This is 'taxation with representation ain't so hot either' [sign onscreen] and the other one [also onscreen] taxation with representation sucks too!

This is the message that's being sold most aggressively about what the great conservative tea-bagging protest of 2009. the idea is that they're against taxes, that's mostly what they're for. You can also buy lawn signs that say 'taxed enough already' Get it? T-E-A [sign onscreen] tea?  There are t-shirts, bumper-stickers, 'Taxed enough aleady!' The outrage!  'Our taxes are outrageous. We will evoke the spirit of the American colonists who seceded, who seceded from the tyranical government that taxed them so unjustly! These Obama tax policies are just unconscionable.'  

You know what Obama's done to taxes in the less than three months he's been in office?  He's, he's, he has passed the biggest middle class tax cut in American history.  Honestly, these protests are organized around the principle of taxed enough already, and they're protesting now?  Right after taxes just got cut for everyone making less than a quarter million dollars a year? Maybe all these people are outraged because the tax rate for people making more than a quarter million dollars a yer is going to go back to what it was during Bill Clinton. That's the outrage? Remember how much the rich suffered under Clinton?  Never again!

Really?  Maybe it's the outrage that the debt and deficit are high.  But, then, wouldn't you have protested when George W. Bush turned hundreds of billions of dollars of surplus into a trillion dollar deficit?  And then the economy collapsed before he left office?  Maybe it's outrage that Obama won the election?

'Tea-bagging' is an embarrassing word. The idea of tea-bagging the White House is even more embarrassing. This guy's sign says 'Pork DC.' Conservative writer Anderw Sulivan suggested today that in the absence of any clear motive for protesting, the 'tea-parties' should be seen as 'tea tantrums' instead.  Awaiting any signs of rational motivation, I am inclined to agree.

Holding these people up to ridicule is a necessary and patriotic act.  Because they are ridiculous, and they are the very antithesis of patriots.

Is this the best thing that could be done?  No.  Far, far better if the political leaders they backed, who broke scores of laws under color of law were put on trial and held to account for what they did.  If our Democratic leaders would simply uphold the rule of law, there would be an open and public repudiation of conservatism that would last at least as long as the period after the Great Depression, and it would be utterly justified.

But in the absence of anything like that, what Rachel is doing on cable TV, and what many others are doing in the blogosphere is utterly and completely necessary.  We need to make it virtually impossible for the wingnut conservatives who have captured the GOP to be taken seriously in any way, shape or form.  They are not within a country mile of being rational creatures.  They're entire "logic" consists of us/them thinking.  This is what drives their insistence that Obama isn't even an American. It's totally and completely nuts.  And pretending anything less than that makes us a little bit nuts as well.  Because that's how insanity works. You either recognize it, and stand against it.  Or you empower it, one way or another.

Ignoring it is not an option.


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revised comment (4.00 / 1)
I posted a comment last night on this subject:

I'm afraid that the wingnuts nutty extremism has begun to  preoccupy our progressive blogs to such an extent that it is now substantively taking us off course from the work we need to do to build a progressive voice in this country.
While I understand the avowed reasoning that it is important to document and cover what is being said, and especially the stoking of violence, I am sick of it leading us around by the nose.
This Beck character now dominates our blog discussions.
 We are reeling from one day to the next on their outrage.  And what is the point?  He is a marginal character too.
I don't want to read about it any more, unless there is something constructive we can do about it -- reeling around in our outrage over their outrage has gotten us way off track.
And they are leading the discussion. And dominating the discussion.
Like Obama says, we need to take a longer view and not react day by day to each word.
Can we get back to leading our own movement?  A majority of Americans are for single payer health care.  What are we going to do about it?  


The Thing Is (4.00 / 6)
It's not that easy.  The craziness they embody has become central to our nation's political psyche.  We need to be conscious of it without becoming dominated by it.

Here in California, for example, irrational tax hatred has been destroying our state for 30 years now.  Crippled by a 2/3rds requirement to pass a budget or raise taxes, our state government is fundamentally powerless to govern in a very fundamental sense.  All political action takes place in the margins of what is necessary because of this absurd restriction, and a GOP that operates in total lockstep to this insanity.

Fees, OTOH, such as those to attend public colleges and universities have skyrocketed.

Efforts to alter this situation have been few and far between, and neither successful nor well-executed.  It seems obvious to me that part of what's necessary will be to tar the entire GOP with this crazy wignut image.  Because, when you really get down to it, that's exactly what's been going on for the past 30 years.

Those who would blur things, and pretend that a rational dialogue is possible with these people, those are the really dangerous ones who keep this charade alive.  And here in California that has included the vast majority of the Democratic Party leadership.  Working in tandem--which, in effect, they do--they are anything but marginal forces.

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
They hit the ball ... (0.00 / 0)
and progressive blogs are now spending all day fielding it.
The wackiest of the wackos are dominating the agenda.
They are using their outrageousness to dominate the news and to stay in control.
Otherwise of course I see your point.  They make it obvious every day that rational dialogue is impossible.
We have to change the Democratic leadership, or we have to inspire them to change.
Letting the wacko Conservatives control the dialog as they presently do is a questionable way to go about it.

[ Parent ]
Well, You're The One Commenting In This Diary (0.00 / 0)
instead of the ones on welfare state spending, which took a hell of a lot more work on my part, and have much more to do with laying the foundations for a progressive agenda.

So what does that say about who's setting what agenda for whom?

I don't mean to pick on you personally.  This is true of virtually everyone.  Sizzle outsells steak.

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
Hmmm, no I think for exposure, spending some time on the wingnuts is good. (4.00 / 2)
The best analysis so far belong to Maddow. It is the perfect refutation. They are out of power, and out of sorts, like children who didnt get their naps. But they are also trying their damndest tpo find an issue to spread. Countering their clapptrap, like this:
"These Obama tax policies are just unconscionable.' (they say, but ) You know what Obama's done to taxes in the less than three months he's been in office?  He's, he's, he has passed the biggest middle class tax cut in American history.  Honestly, these protests are organized around the principle of taxed enough already, and they're protesting now?  Right after taxes just got cut for everyone making less than a quarter million dollars a year? Maybe all these people are outraged because the tax rate for people making more than a quarter million dollars a yer is going to go back to what it was during Bill Clinton. That's the outrage?

Is just perfect. If it can be said over and over again, if it can be juxtaposed against the demand for justice with the banks(see below) it will move people even further into the camp of reality thinking, policy demanding and democracy enhancing. The fight is about destroying these lies and the political order they want to use them to create. Thyere will never be too little power for the neo-cons.


Change
"We must break up the banks and never again let them get so big that they distort our politics and take down the economy.


[ Parent ]
Isn't expecting more from the progressive blogs a bit much? (4.00 / 2)
To me the way I've always seen progressive blogs is as a filter on the main stream media.

Before I started reading dailykos and open left I had no idea who David Brooks or really anyone in the mainstream media was because I didn't and still don't watch the news.

Focusing on Beck is not off course.  It is completely consistent with the content of most progressive blogs.  

But I think it is also important.  People who think logically and rationally about everything tend to become disconnected from society at large when they ignore the Glenn Becks.  They start to think that maybe there is some rational decisionmaking behind Republican actions.

What really needs to be done is to focus on the people who would have no idea what Paul Rosenberg is talking about when he says Versailles democrats.

And that will only come when there are entertaining video segments like Maddow or Colbert that are generated from the dailykos crowd.  Entertainment is actually a pretty essential part of the progressive blogs power.  It will only be able to do more when it can entertain people who don't follow the news and who don't want to read about politics.


http://transgendermom.blogspot....


[ Parent ]
No, Folks Should Expect More (4.00 / 1)
You make some very good points.

But, honestly, as a blogger, I expect more.  We all need to expect more from ourselves, even as we acknowledge the value of what we've already done.

Once again, I am Mr. Both/And.  I just can't help myself.

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
What (4.00 / 1)
your analysis simply fails to account for is precisely the changed circumstances in which we progressives find ourselves today.

On any rational account, the thing that stands in the way of continued dominance of Democrats in our government is the prospect of failure by the current Democratic government in governance. Republicans left to their own devices possess virtually no power to improve the abysmal popularity of their policies. Their only only ride back to influence is on a perceived failure by Democrats to solve our current problems.

It is a collapse in governance that has brought the Republicans and the Conservative movement to its low state. It is the potential like collapse by Democrats that is by far the greatest threat to the progressive movement going forward. Given our economic crisis, such a severe breakdown in governance is very much in the cards if Democrats don't do the right thing (and, unfortunately, neither the stimulus, nor, more emphatically, the PPIP banking solution are the right thing).

And here's the point: it is fully within the hands of the Democrats to stave off such failure, or fall into it. Anything that distracts from achieving full success is itself part of the problem, not part of the solution.

And there are very few distractions more damaging and effective than to engage our emotions against the Republicans, rather than against the Democrats who are, in fact, the ones standing athwart the path to successful policy.

Indeed, the true effect of so engaging our emotions against Republicans instead of the obstructionist Democrats is to make those very Democrats seem far more sympathetic. As they themselves will argue, Look, for God's sake, we're not Republicans, the loathsome creatures you yourself can't stop hating -- why don't you cut us all the slack we need on policy so that we can defeat those unspeakable, slimy monsters? The evil of Republicans is their argument -- and they couldn't be happier than to see progressives embrace it.

And, finally, for what it's worth, on quite a different topic, as far as the quality of Maddow's comedy goes, I'm much more inclined to Bob Somerby's take on it today:

Thursday night and Friday morning: Last night, Rachel Maddow returned to the "tea-bagging" wars, having spent seven minutes clowning about the funny term on Thursday evening's program (see THE DAILY HOWLER, 4/10/09). But last night, as she commonly does, Maddow reinvented her own past conduct. Suddenly, we were asked to believe that Thursday's extended clownfest had been a "difficult" chore:

   MADDOW (4/10/09): Last night on this program, I was joined by Ana Marie Cox for a rather [brief pause] difficult discussion about "tea-bagging." Conservative activists and Fox News Channel teaming up to organize protest actions that include sending tea bags to members of Congress, pledging to "tea-bag" the White House....

   At the risk of saying the word "tea-bag" more than my conscience can bear, there are two remaining points here that I would hope to still be able to clear up.

What a perfect pile of crap. As any fool can see by watching the tape, Thursday night's discussion wasn't "difficult" at all. The ladies were joking, clowning and simpering, going a million miles out of their way to say the very funny term as many times as they possibly could. (By way of contrast, very few "conservative activists" or Fox News people were shown using the funny term.) Sorry. Maddow and Cox were like Beavis and Butt-head cackling about the term "69." (Richard Nixon took office in 69. Heh heh heh heh heh heh heh.) They laughed and clowned and simpered and played, burning time which could have been used to clarify actual issues.



You're Aboslutely Right--Up To A Point (4.00 / 1)
First off, this was not intended to be a thorough analysis.  It was intended to address initial considerations.

This:

And there are very few distractions more damaging and effective than to engage our emotions against the Republicans, rather than against the Democrats who are, in fact, the ones standing athwart the path to successful policy.

Indeed, the true effect of so engaging our emotions against Republicans instead of the obstructionist Democrats is to make those very Democrats seem far more sympathetic.

Is both a very real danger, and absolutely not carved in stone.  It doesn't have to be either/or, either mad at the wingnuts or the Versailles Dems.  It can bloody well be both.  And the more the wingnuts are shown to be stark raving loonies, the more the Versailles Dems can be attacked for treating them more seriously than they treat us--and the majority of the American people.

And, indeed, it's precisely my purpose to focus attention on this fact--that it's up to us to channel things in the right direction.

Replacing an either/or switch with a both/and one is the sort of thing that goes to very essence of channeling.  

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
Liberal versus conservative (4.00 / 1)
Marxist versus Capitalist
Socialist versus Fascist
French Fries versus Freedom Fries . . .

The dialectic between progressive and conservative elements in this country has existed since its formation. I read the Federalist Papers (especially Number 10) and thought, "What the hell. . . . These guys knew that any large group of people will eventually break up into smaller groups and turn the best planned government into the world's biggest goat rodeo. Society is, by nature, factioned. Groups of people will never stop trying to boss and control everyone around them. Never. How are you supposed to keep grown-ups in charge of a mess like that? Unless you understand that special interests will always try to screw over everyone in site and put a social contracts (e.g. Constitution, Bill of Rights, U.N. Charter, etc. -- you know, rule of law) in place to prevent it, it will happen each and every time."

That is my way of saying that I agree with Paul.

Even though they both seem to be operating as factions within the larger Bankster Party at present, the conflict between the Democrats and Republicans will never cease as long as the U.S. exists as a democracy (at least sort of a democracy).

This conflict is inter-generational and is essentially a conflict between two opposing philosophies - one that embraces change and seeks a flat form of organization, one that opposes change and seeks a hierarchical form of organization. Without an alien attack, asteroid impact or nuclear holocaust, the conflict will continue as it has for hundreds (thousands actually, . . . OK, millions) of years.

When one of the two political groups runs screaming off the end of the pier as the Republican Party is doing, it becomes necessary for the opposing party to bring the insanity to everyone's attention. Conversely, should the Republican Party ever return to sanity and should the Democratic Party ever decide that everyone in the world should be born with two heads, I would would hope that the Republicans would make every effort to keep the designated number of heads per person to 1.5.



Why? (4.00 / 1)
There is real anger and one needs to ask why before one can start to deal with it.

I've written about Tax Resentment before. It is mainly an American phenomenon.

My thesis is that people aren't getting a good deal for their taxes since half of the federal discretionary budget (actually 54% these days) goes for militarism. To get those who are angry to channel their anger in productive directions means first getting them to understand the underlying issues.

My essay points to a few sites with useful statistics that can help educate people.

Policies not Politics


Yes And No (0.00 / 0)
I've been a self-identified anti-war activist since I was a teenager, and the current US military budget is roughly equal to that of the rest of the world combined.

But it's also the case that US military spending as a percent of government spending is down dramatically since 1960.  One big reason is that discretionary spending as a whole is a much smaller share than it used to be, thanks primarily to the growth of Social Security, and above all to the creation and growth of Medicare.

All of which is to say that I think you have a point, Robert.  In fact, I'm sure of it.  But I also think it's not as big a point as you think, and it's more entangled with a lot of other things.  Not least of which is that a lot of these folks are still in trauma over losing the Vietnam War.  This is where a lot of the current wingnut culture gets its juice, and a lot of their ideas end up leaking across the political spectrum.

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
Discretionary (0.00 / 0)
One big reason is that discretionary spending as a whole is a much smaller share than it used to be, thanks primarily to the growth of Social Security, and above all to the creation and growth of Medicare.

I think you misunderstand "discretionary". The pie chart reference makes this clear:
http://www.warresisters.org/pi...

Social Security and Medicare (and other similar programs) are not discretionary. One of the consequences of the Vietnam war was LJB's gimmick of folding special purpose funds into the overall budget so as to disguise the amount of spending on the war. Before this SS and similar programs were not part of the budget.

Some people make an argument about militarism as a percentage of the GDP and how it has been higher in the past, but this too is misleading. There is no reason for military spending to track the GDP, it's not like we need more tanks because we have a bigger population. What we have is a fourth branch of government which persists from one administration to the next virtually unchanged.

In many countries the military is recognized as an explicit power center, but we pretend it's not since it is under "civilian" control. However it is so enmeshed with the political process that it can force increases in spending even when there are no rational reasons for it. Furthermore there are those in congress with their own agendas (local projects) who demand spending even when the military doesn't want the appropriation.

Just look at the hysteria over Gates' recent (minor) tweaks in appropriations, to see the power of the military/industrial/congressional complex.

Notice that even Obama can't take them on headfirst. Imagine the reactions to a proposal for real cuts rather than just allocating funds. The constant fear-mongering doesn't help either and I think this is another aspect behind the tax resentment. People are afraid that if we don't have a strong military their wasteful lifestyles will be threatened. Why is it in our "national interest" to supervise oil production in Iraq? Why can't we just pay for our oil at prevailing market prices like everyone else?

Policies not Politics


[ Parent ]
I Think You Misunderstand My Argument. (0.00 / 0)
Social Security and Medicare (and other similar programs) are not discretionary.

That's just my point.  The military continues to dominate discretionary spending--and that's definitely a problem.  But in terms of sheer numbers, the amount of money spent on the military is a declining share of the federal budget--due to the explosive growth of such non-discretionary spending--and it simply cannot be taken in isolation as the cause of the dynamic you point to.  In fact, the biggest numbers fight we have is to expand the non-discretionary spending on Medicare via turning it into a universal program for Americans of all ages.

It's "only" when limiting focus on the discretionary side of things that the military looms so large.  This is hardly a trivial matter, of course, particularly given how utterly wasteful such spending is, even if it weren't downright counterproductive, for the most part.

But it is not the be-all and end-all explanation of why Americans don't appreciate the value of paying taxes.  We've always been much more of a get-rich-quick, something-for-nothing kind of culture than Europe.  After all, them's the kinds of Europeans we attracted here in the first place!

Please understand, I'm not rejecting your argument's core validity--that wasteful military spending chokes off the potential for much more valuable spending that would make tax-paying a much more rational, broadly supportable activity.  I'm simply saying that it's part of a much larger, much more complicated thicket of causes, consequences and crazy-ass narratives.

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
study needed (0.00 / 0)
It would be interesting to see if tax resentment extends to the social security tax as well.

I'm willing to guess that this is resented less by all but the most impractical libertarian tax haters. After all everyone who works expects to get SS and thus they see where their money is going.

Every time I suggest that the "fix" for SS should be to eliminate the payroll tax explicitly and roll it into the general structure (and adjust the brackets and tax rates accordingly) I get the argument that people would no longer support the program if in wasn't separately funded.

As for Medicare/Medicaid I know what the common arguments about its runaway costs are, however I offer an alternative view here as well (equally rejected I might add).

My point is that we can allow health spending to be as "inefficient" as we wish if we are willing to treat it as an explicit make work project, using the same arguments made for F22's or Star Wars. All we are doing in that case is moving money from one sector to support those working in a different sector. Japan subsidizes small rice farmers by restricting imports and imposing a tax on rice. Everyone pays more, but the social benefit of keeping these small farmers on the land (and working) is served.

The problem with the health system is not that it is expensive (less stock traders, more nurses), but that it delivers inadequate care, has poor outcomes compared to other industrialized countries and misses a good portion of the population. It is true that health spending is larger than military spending, but the health sector keeps 16 million people employed.

Stiglitz estimated that the wars will end up costing $3 trillion, that would cover an awful lot of health care for many years. Deliberate inefficiencies are fine as long as everybody signs on to the program. It's all a matter of social priorities. The problem isn't that the sector is expensive, its that it does a suboptimal job.

Policies not Politics


[ Parent ]
Talk About Sub-Optimal! (0.00 / 0)
The problem isn't that the sector is expensive, its that it does a suboptimal job.

The insurance part of it does nothing at all to deliver health, and everything possible to deny care.

Now that's the problem, any way you want to look at it.

I'm not just popping off to ignore the rest of your argument.  I think the rest of your argument is deliberately ignoring this most salient point.

It's not that the industry does a suboptimal job.  It's designed to do a suboptimal job.  It's built right into its incentive structure from day one.

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
Health Care (0.00 / 0)
Well I think you need to separate the publicly funded from the privately funded. Medicare/Medicaid and the VA don't have the same incentives as does for-profit insurance.

There are also private non-profits like Kaiser-Permanente and Mayo.

I agree that the profit motive causes bad choices, but the costs of the public sector is only slightly less than the private. There are many inefficiencies built into the system, too many to discuss here.

Perhaps you want to blog about this as a separate topic. In the meanwhile, if you are interested, I suggest reading some of the postings on http://www.healthbeatblog.org/ which is sponsored by the Century Foundation. The blogger, Maggie Mahar is a long time critic of our present health policies.


Policies not Politics


[ Parent ]
Two Points (0.00 / 0)
First of all, our system is fundamentally private, so that the public side of it ends up paying for deep structural inefficiencies that pervade the system.  

Second, the private insurance system alone is pure cost being carried by the private system.  So even if their basic costs were identical, the private system would have those massive costs in addition.

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
Your thesis is rooted in fact (0.00 / 0)
I'm sorry that I don't have any references for you. I heard a lecture by a visiting professor maybe 15 years ago, and he made exactly this general point, though with polls to back him up. Europeans feel like they are getting a lot for their taxes, because they are, and thus are actually happier with their level of taxation, as compared to Americans.

This should be a huge talking point for progressive groups, namely, that we are getting gypped. In fact, isn't it a fair criticism of Democrats that they are helping maintain this feeling, based in fact, of wasted tax dollars? That is one reason, I suppose, that PDA keeps saying "Healthcare, not warfare", but IMHO, they should relate that very explicitly to tax rates needed to have:

     a) healthcare with warfare (i.e., militarized empire + war)
vs. b) healthcare without warfare
vs. c) warfare without healthcare

 

DemocracyABC.org
TheRealNews.Com
http://www.pdamerica.org


[ Parent ]
But There's Much MORE To This Picture (4.00 / 1)
Most Americans have no sense at all of what their taxes do.  For example, there's a deeply-rooted belief in widespread government "waste, fraud and abuse." As proof, there is Regan's non-existent mythical "welfare queen."

The reality is that Europeans pay much more in the way of taxes, but there's much greater understanding of where they go and why.  In short, the distortions of militarism and the lack of adequate healthcare are just two factors in a larger matrix of problems.

They also have--in the form of WWII--a much more vivid sense of what it can look like when we don't all pull together at a fundamental level.  They have a much more realistic sense of what the real alternative to the welfare state is.

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
To bring things back to the "tea parties," (4.00 / 2)
a sign I saw here locally read, "Your mortgage is not my problem." Ha ha! So cute. There's a complete failure to sort out one's own self-interest, even if selfish prickishness is at the top of the agenda.

[ Parent ]
Precisely! (4.00 / 1)
The perfect framing for that sign is in the front yard of the last occupied home left on a street of abandoned houses.

The idiocy of the right has no bottom.  It's sort of like some financial markets you might have heard about.

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
For sure, but I happen to be an American who also thinks a lot is being essentially stolen (0.00 / 0)
And not being stolen by mythical welfare queens, but being stolen by, e.g., crony capitalists who work hand in hand with an overspending HUD (for the love of God, please check out Catherine Austin Fitts), on the one hand, and military contractors on the other. See also Walter Burien, who I take seriously partly because I know a very smart accountant whose husband talks a lot about the CAFR's, and has never contradicted him. She's very outspoken, so if she thought it was nonsense, she'd say so. The CAFR budgets can be obtained via some libraries, if you know what to ask for, but I've googled CAFR's via site:nytimes.com, and there's virtually nothing, aside from a handful of readers' comments. How can that be, if everything is on the up and up?

Another way our government 'steals' from us is via deregulation, "free trade", laws and lack of laws. We actually pay legislators to represent us, but they are either very stupid (which I don't believe), or essentially bought and paid for (at least in the sense that Lawrence Lessig would agree with.) The net result is what I call 'economic treason'. Americans would be happier to pay higher taxes, I believe, if their wages were closer to $35/hr than to $15/hr. (Within reason, of course.) They'd be stupid, otherwise.

But to add to the messaging picture I'd like to see, you really need a simple, but not too simple, breakdown of "where the money goes", that combines personally directed expenditures with what government spends, and will spend, on your behalf, under various scenarios. What better example is there than health care? Most people who can afford health insurance are going to get it - and pay through the nose for both having it, and using it, compared to most other modern nations. (Actually, I think that's all other modern nations.)

Also, there most definitely should be an entry, in each and every scenario, for what you're paying as interest on the national debt. Sorry, but the conservatives aren't wrong about everything. Running a deficit during economic down times is one thing, running deficits so huge that 30% of your tax dollars are going merely to pay interest is another. (I don't know what the exact figure is, nowadays, but it can't be good.)

So, to amend what I wrote earlier, the PDA should create average budgets for various income brackets, with govertment-ish or could-be-goverment-ish expenses that are itemized.  An adjacent column describes what you can actually get for that amount of expenditure. It's not easy to quantify everything in the "what you get" column, e.g. national defense. I mean, who really cares if get .0001% of a battleship, or .0002%, and what does that mean, in terms of per capita security? :-) The way I would quantify that is as a percentage of the average wealthy European countries' expenditures. E.g., under the current 'with warfare' scenario, you are paying X to get Y% of European levels of per capita defense expenditures, where Y is certainly > 100.

(Indeed, it's probably a good idea to publish more elaborate spreadsheets, via the web, where similar '% as compared to average wealthy European countries' figures appear, in an adjacent column, for social benefit types of expenditures, also.)

For social benefits, things get somewhat easier to quantify. You can look at scenario X, where you spend $5,000 per year for private health insurance (and you have to pray that you don't actually get sick, so that you are not dropped). The "what you get" is probably already known to you, if you've had to pay the health insurance bill for your family. Nevertheless, the cost-benefit tax spreadsheets I'm sketching out would kindly replicate that information. Afterwards, you can then examine scenario Y, see where you would be spending $2,700 per year for health care, paid via your personal income taxes, for a single payer health care plan.

Even Rush Limbaugh listeners will figure that out, real quick.


DemocracyABC.org
TheRealNews.Com
http://www.pdamerica.org


[ Parent ]
Thus, a superior motto for the PDA would be...... (0.00 / 0)
Aren't you tired of getting gypped?

Yes, I really do think that this motto would get much more converts and conversions (of average citizens -> activist citizens) than "Healthcare not warfare".

DemocracyABC.org
TheRealNews.Com
http://www.pdamerica.org


[ Parent ]
I'm mostly with you. (4.00 / 2)
I had some hope with the idea of moving the whole window so far left that people like Markos would be the new "right" of the debate.  Leave the entire elected Republican party in the outer sphere of illegitimate debate.

However, someone raised the point in David's thread that power comes from ability to affect outcomes, and however fucking bonkers the Republicans are, they still do have power to affect outcomes.  In the House, the unified anti-Obama vote of the Republican party empowers the Blue Dogs to demand changes to things or they join with the GOP and in the Senate, the filibuster and conservaDems provide the same service.

Tanks can't afford to ignore infantry, because a grenade stuffed in the wrong spot on the tracks can disable it.  Even a great disparity in power usually doesn't translate into the ability to outright ignore the opposition.  


This Is Why Obama's Strategy Is So Stupid (4.00 / 2)
Just assuming that Obama is a pragmatic centrist with modest progressive sympathies--which, I think, is the most credible reading of his record--it makes strategy good sense for him to empower progressives by at least treating them equally, in order to further isolate the right, and keep the conservativadems from wrecking his presidency, much as they wrecked Clinton's first two years.

If everyone was ridiculing the GOP "leadership" it just wouldn't be credible for the Blu Dogs to be threatening to ally with them.  So this is a problem of Obama's own making.  Instead of supporting a progressive counterforce, he's gone out of his way to mute it.  And he's dealing with the consequences.  Only just the first wave.

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
Why doesn't Rachel Maddow talk as much about (4.00 / 2)
a new way forward as she does about the stupid tea baggers, who have nothing what so ever to be mad about since they are the ones getting the fucking bailout.

Very Good Question (0.00 / 0)
There's a partial explanation in that the tea-baggers come out of a longstanding political infrastructure, so traking them involves basically following an old story, and media always does this better than breaking new ground.

But that's no excuse for totally ignoring A New Way Forward.  One segment on her show could have really helped boost visibility and turnout.  Let's hope she at least does something about it on Monday.

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
but it is not just her (0.00 / 0)
the kossacks are snubbing this story too.  This is why I don't understand why you encourage people to still look at the place.  It's obvious that since his nomination they view their job as stifling progressive critics.  I would really rather progressives post here than there.  Otherwise they end up wasting there day arguing with kos's thugs.

[ Parent ]
We should ask her nt (4.00 / 2)


Who are the best keepers of the people's liberties? The people themselves. The sacred trust can be no where so safe as in the hands most interested in preserving it.
James Madison


[ Parent ]
Absolutely right!! (4.00 / 1)
"First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then you win." M.Gandhi.

It is a big mistake for Rachel to move on to parody or ridicule.

The opposition must be repudiated. It must not be ignored or we will have conceded that we must pay attention to them. We must prevent a move to Gandhi's step two, "Then they laugh at you," without a thorough denial with proof provided at every turn. Every time Obama's non-citizenship is alleged by the opposition party, Obama's Hawaiian birth certificate must be shown, along with SCOTUS denial of certiorari on the matter.

Every time Bachmann or any other wingnut stands up, so must we! I've started to refer to Republicans as the opposition party as much to remind myself of what I must do as to degrade their name, because it isn't just Republicans - it's Conservatives and 3rd way Ron Paul adherents and other fringe parties who are just as off the wall crazy with allegations that Obama is the antichrist!

Some stupid platform. Even James Dobson has walked off in disgust.

Partygoers is a better term for the opposition party. They are having a party, and they are drinking a lot. They are intoxicated in their workplace. They are drunk and disorderly, and, in their disorder, Democrats of every stripe better take away their car keys or they will continue to cause deadly accidents.

They already have inspired violence in two incidents that I attribute directly to their media darlings, Goldberg and Bachmann, who alleged that Liberals must die and that Obama will take away your guns.

We haven't yet asked them to pay for the consequences of their irresponsibility, these fractures of our political system. Nor have we yet engaged and properly opposed Cheney, their only remaining link to power.

This is dangerous work, for their irrationality prompts the only argument they have left: violence.

Don't laugh at their tea party. It started the Revolutionary War.  Rachel is mocking assassinations. Nothing much to laugh about that I can see.

Lifelong NY Democrat, now re-registered as Independent. Paterson must resign!


Well... (0.00 / 0)
...in the crew's defense it would be a lot easier to stifle giggles if this news show wasn't having its writers churn out seven minutes worth of jokes.

If already said, forgive the redundant repetition (0.00 / 0)
The problem with ignoring the wackloons of the Right, no matter hwo baldly they spew, if they are NOT immediately implicated in power, is that the 'light-left' will soon run out of things abut which to express their frustrations, and would then, possibly (not guaranteed, of course, given the sources), could/might turn their attention to the serious issues surrounding the --note, I say-- apparent failings, contradictions, and out-right betrayals which disrupt their enthusiasms and rebuke the reasons why they thought they cast their votes.

It's not Obama's "mistakes," per se.

They're our own.


The Left Is So Dumb (0.00 / 0)
I can't figure out why you waste your precious holy breath preaching to us, knowing we're too stupid to ever heed you.

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"

[ Parent ]
Yo, Pablo: Be sure to send up flares (0.00 / 0)
when some Leftist takes power, will ya?

I don't wanna miss it...


[ Parent ]
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