De-Nazify America--Part 2: Honor Those Who Struggled Against The Darkness. Protect Those Who Will

by: Paul Rosenberg

Sun Apr 19, 2009 at 12:30


In comments yesterday, someone (I can't find it now) mentioned the case of Alyssa Peterson, one of the first female soldiers to die in Iraq, who committed suicide shortly after witnessing an interrogation session that was more a beating than anything else.

Peterson is emblematic of countless other Americans--in uniform and out--who were confronted with the imperative to torture and otherwise violate the moral and legal principles we are supposed to stand for, and who reacted by fighting back against that imperative.

It's known that PTSD is primarily a response to experiencing and participating in the infliction of violence on others.  It is primarily a conscience-based affliction, not a fear-based one.  And those who suffer from it all too often do take their lives, as Alyssa Peterson did, or else spend many dark days contemplating doing so.

Every single torturer who is given a pass by Obama's embrace of the Nuremberg Defense represents another insult another attack on those who did not willingly go along, whether or not they found a way to effectively remove themselves from becoming part of the machinery of evil. Every single torturer who is given a pass by Obama's embrace of the Nuremberg Defense represents another bullet in Alyssa Peterson's body, another insult to her honor, her integrity, and her good name.

We need to know about her story, to understand what Obama is doing to her memory, her humanity, her integrity, with every pass he gives to those who tortured when we she refused to.

In March of last year, Editor and Publisher editor Greg Mitchell wrote in Huffington Post:

Paul Rosenberg :: De-Nazify America--Part 2: Honor Those Who Struggled Against The Darkness. Protect Those Who Will
Looking back at all of the sad, tragic and unnecessary deaths in Iraq that I have written about in the past five years, it is hard to identify one that stands out. But one death does still haunt me, above all others.

Alyssa Peterson was one of the first female soldiers killed in Iraq -- and she died by her own hand after objecting to interrogation methods used on prisoners. A cover-up, naturally, followed....

She was only the third American woman killed in Iraq, so her death drew wide press attention. A "non-hostile weapons discharge" leading to death is not unusual in Iraq, often quite accidental, so this one apparently raised few eyebrows. The Arizona Republic, three days after her death, reported that Army officials "said that a number of possible scenarios are being considered, including Peterson's own weapon discharging, the weapon of another soldier discharging, or the accidental shooting of Peterson by an Iraqi civilian." And that might have ended it right there.

But in this case, a longtime radio and newspaper reporter named Kevin Elston, not satisfied with the public story, decided to probe deeper in 2005, "just on a hunch," he told me in late 2006 (there's a chapter about it in my new book). He made "hundreds of phone calls" to the military and couldn't get anywhere, so he filed a Freedom of Information Act [FOIA] request. When the documents of the official investigation of her death arrived, they contained bombshell revelations. Here's what the Flagstaff public radio station, KNAU, where Elston now works, reported:

    "Peterson objected to the interrogation techniques used on prisoners. She refused to participate after only two nights working in the unit known as the cage. Army spokespersons for her unit have refused to describe the interrogation techniques Alyssa objected to. They say all records of those techniques have now been destroyed."

Hundreds of phone calls, and that was just beginning.  Yet, even today, very little is known about Peterson's death, and the conditions that lead up to it.  And this is not just the case with Peterson's death.  It is the story of our entire involvement in Iraq.  Our entire involvement in the "war on terror".  We have barely scratched the surface of the horrors that have been perpetrated in our names, the horrors that countless thousands of decent Americans like Peterson have to live with to this day.  Holding the guilty accountable is not a matter of petty vengeance, or even abstract justice.  It is also, in a very real sense, an act of healing for those who suffer like Peterson did, because they are the ones with the consciences to be haunted by what they've witnessed, and been forced to be a part of.

The next month, Mitchell wrote about it again:

The death of Alyssa Peterson, which I chronicled here last month, is unspeakably sad, and what was fully in her mind will never be known, especially since her parents apparently knew little about her death until years after it happened. The press, which has rarely challenged the official version of Iraq fatalities, has not probed the incident, to this day (although it is featured in two chapters in my new book on Iraq and the media). But this tragedy also begs the question: Which interrogation techniques drew her ire?

And were they of such a nature that this might explain why this young woman of Mormon faith and, reportedly, good nature would suddenly turn a gun on herself?

The official Army investigation notes that all papers relating to the interrogations have been destroyed. But what do we know about what was going on in Iraq in 2003, beyond credible claims that treatment of prisoners was being "Gitmo-ized"?

He then turns to a new source of information, insight, and reflection, another female translator, who briefly met Peterson, shortly before her suicide:

Perhaps the most specific testimony that may relate to Alyssa Peterson comes from another Arabic-speaking female U.S. soldier who also served in the 101st Airborne at that time in the same region of Iraq. She even wrote a book partly about it. This is former Army sergeant Kayla Williams, author of the 2005 memoir, Love My Rifle More Than You. Much of the media publicity about the book focused on her accounts of sexual tension or harassment in Iraq, but it also holds several key passages about interrogations.

In the book, Williams, now 30 and out of the Army, described how she had been recruited to briefly take part in over-the-line interrogations. Like Peterson, she protested torture techniques -- such as throwing lit cigarettes at prisoners -- and was quickly shifted away. But she told me that she is still haunted by the experience and wonders if she objected strongly enough.

Williams and Peterson were both interpreters -- but only the latter was in "human intelligence," that is, trained to take part in interrogations. They met by chance when Williams, who had been on a mission, came back to the base in Tal Afar in September 2003 before heading off again. A civilian interpreter asked her to speak to Peterson, who seemed troubled. Like others, Williams found her to be a "sweet girl." Williams asked if she wanted to go to dinner, but Peterson was not free -- maybe next time, but of course time ran out....

One reason that the path Obama has chosen is so wrong, and why vigorous de-Nazification is needed instead, is precisely so that the health, sanity and survival of the best among us no longer depend on such brief and unfortunately ineffectual encounters.  Rather, the virtue of soldiers such as Peterson and Williams needs to be made central, rather than peripheral.  Their brief meeting needs to be institutionalized. Their bond of common humanity and integrity needs to be the foundation on which the defense of our nation is built.  Because nothing less, nothing else can truly defend us.

Mitchell continues, taking us into what Williams herself experienced in the way of horrors perpetrated in our names:

Shortly after that, Williams (a three-year Army vet at the time) was sent to the 2nd Brigade's Support Area in Mosul, and she described what happened next in her book. Brought into the "cage" one day on a special mission, she saw fellow soldiers hitting a naked prisoner in the face. "It's one thing to make fun of someone and attempt to humiliate him. With words. That's one thing. But flicking lit cigarettes at somebody -- like burning him -- that's illegal," Williams writes. Soldiers later told her that "the old rules no longer applied because this was a different world. This was a new kind of war."

Here's what she told Soledad O'Brien of CNN on Sept. 26 of this year: "I was asked to assist. And what I saw was that individuals who were doing interrogations had slipped over a line and were really doing things that were inappropriate. There were prisoners that were burned with lit cigarettes.

"They stripped prisoners naked and then removed their blindfolds so that I was the first thing they saw. And then we were supposed to mock them and degrade their manhood. And it really didn't seem to make a lot of sense to me. I didn't know if this was standard. But it did not seem to work. And it really made me feel like we were losing that crucial moral higher ground, and we weren't behaving in the way that Americans are supposed to behave."

As soon as that day ended, after a couple of these sessions, she told a superior she would never do it again.

In another CNN interview, on Oct. 8, 2005, she explained: "I sat through it at the time. But after it was over I did approach the non-commissioned officer in charge and told him I think you may be violating the Geneva Conventions. . . . He said he knew and I said I wouldn't participate again and he respected that, but I was really, really stunned...."

These are the horrors that Williams herself saw--and refused to participate in.  But, of course, could not wash from her memory, or her soul.  And what does this common experience lead her to think of regarding Peterson's struggle, and her death?

It's complicated, of course.  Suicide is rarely the result of a single factor, but rather of the overwhelm from an avalanche of them.  Still, it's impossible that the torture she witnessed, the torture she was thrust into the middle of did not loom very large before her--along with feelings of isolation, abandonment, and betrayal--because her love of country was being turned to such dark and despicable ends.

Taking all of other unknown factors into account, what they shared in common cannot be ignored:

Properly, Williams points out that it's rarely one factor that leads to suicide, and Peterson had some personal problems, to be sure. "It's always a bunch of things coming together to the point you feel so overwhelmed that there's no way out," Williams says. "I witnessed abuse, I felt uncomfortable with it, but I didn't kill myself, because I could see the bigger context.

"I felt a lot of angst about whether I had an obligation to report it, and had any way to report it. Was it classified? Who should I turn to?" Perhaps Alyssa Peterson felt in the same box.

"It also made me think," Williams says, "what are we as humans, that we do this to each other? It made me question my humanity and the humanity of all Americans. It was difficult, and to this day I can no longer think I am a really good person and will do the right thing in the right situation." Such an experience might have been truly shattering to the deeply religious Peterson.

Referring to that day in Mosul, Williams says, "I did protest but only to the person in charge and I did not file a report up the chain of command." Yet, after recounting her experience there, she asks: "Can that lead to suicide? That's such an act of desperation, helplessness, it has to be more than that." She concludes, "In general, interrogation is not fun, even if you follow the rules. And I didn't see any good intelligence being gained. The other problem is that, in situations like that, you have people that are not terrorists being picked up, and being questioned. And, if you treat an innocent person like that, they walk out a terrorist."

Or, maybe in this case, if an innocent person witnesses such a thing, some may walk out as a likely suicide.

The death of Alyssa Peterson is by itself a powerful reason for the necessity of de-Nazifying America. Prosecuting those who willingly tortured when she refused to participate is the very least we can do to honor her memory, her honor and integrity, her love of country.  For how can her love of country be sustained if we do not make our country worthy of such love again?

Her death alone is reason enough.  We do not need any more.

And yet, there is so much more.  So many tens, if not hundreds of thousands who suffer from PTSD.  Not all of them do so because of being exposed to torture.  Probably only a small fraction of them do, at least in formal settings.  And yet, what has the Iraq War been, if not one long extended torture session, with subjects who had nothing whatsoever to do with 9/11?

Let Alyssa Peterson stand for all of them, all the good and trusting Americans who believed in their country, believed in their leaders, and found themselves horribly betrayed.  We owe it to those whose motives really were good and pure to hold accountable those whose motives were not.

It is the only way possible to restore the possibility that good and pure motives can have a worthy object to serve.


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Great post (4.00 / 3)
That comment was mine BTW. But I just want to hone in on this point.

For how can her love of country be sustained if we do not make our country worthy of such love again?

This is so very important. Because what we have in the current administration is an operational philosophy that rewards criminal behavior while it penalizes the honorable. Simple exposure to combat is traumatic enough, like going through a series of violent car crashes over and over again for 15 months (only worse), but when we add in being witness to atrocities (which should be viewed as shocks to the conscience) or even unwitting participation in them, then the real costs to the individual only go way up from there. The US military does not train people on how to deal with shocks to the conscience, which is something almost every person has.

All this serves to disabuse those who take justifiable pride in serving honorably and it undermines, through psychic and physical violence, any notion that honor matters or is even valued. Once home, these people are villified if they take a public stand in support of their own conscience and honor (see: Jessica Lynch). The system refuses to treat them adequately or even offer them proper respect out of absurd organizational priorities... or just plain denial.

So just what kind of results from all this are our "leaders" expecting anyway? They rather seem to be actively tearing down some very basic ideas about right and wrong. I don't see how this ends well if it's allowed to continue.



"More than any other time in history, mankind faces a crossroads. One path leads to despair and utter hopelessness. The other, to total extinction. Let us pray we have the wisdom to choose correctly." -Woody Allen, My Speech to the Graduates


What Makes It So Much Worse (4.00 / 1)
is that Obama initially seemed to be someone who understood all this.  He's certainly uttered words that gave folks that impression.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Oh, he understands all too well (4.00 / 2)
Either that, or he was a complete fraud as a constitutional law scholar.

One thing we will never be able to say about President Obama is that he doesn't understand something like this.

"More than any other time in history, mankind faces a crossroads. One path leads to despair and utter hopelessness. The other, to total extinction. Let us pray we have the wisdom to choose correctly." -Woody Allen, My Speech to the Graduates


[ Parent ]
. (1.33 / 3)
Denazify?

I see you're still in the business of providing me epic lulz.


Thanks For Sharing, Karl (0.00 / 0)
And say hello to Mrs. Rove for me.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
. (2.00 / 2)
I will, but seriously, Denazify? That's your grand persuasive pitch? Telling the very large segment of the american population that doesn't support prosecutions that they need to stop being Nazis? Really?

I'm supposed to find this as anything more than ridiculously funny?


[ Parent ]
You know, (4.00 / 2)
I would be more inclined to struggle against the characterization, if I didn't feel like it fit quite so well.  Me thinks you protest too loudly, Neon Black.  Your resistance to de-Nazification tells me more about you than it tells me about Paul Rosenberg.  But, by all means, continue to resist, and resist more loudly.  In the process I'll learn more about you than I ever wanted to know.

[ Parent ]
. (2.00 / 2)
Now I need to be denazified, and I'm resisting, eh?

How do you guys see yourselves as anything beyond parodies?


[ Parent ]
Keep goin', Dude. (2.00 / 2)
Paul's offered you plenty of rope, and you're demonstrating you know exactly what to do with it.  Parody, huh?  The hits just keep on comin'.

[ Parent ]
I'm Just Not That Inclined To Take Presentational Advice (4.00 / 1)
from the only person I've ever encountered online so cognitively debilitated that he can't think of single subject line.

Just doesn't feel right.  Know what I mean?

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
What large segment of the population? (4.00 / 2)
After the American people get the full, unadulterated facts, plus the historical context that includes Nuremberg and the evil of wars of choice, I would be shocked if a majority of Americans would reject accountability, from professional shunning to jail time and in between. To date, Americans have seen only a fraction of the facts, in dribs and drabs, often in a 'so what?' context to outright support of past torture like Obama's recent actions.

It is the job of any writer to grab the reader's attention. In this case, sadly, the Nuremberg defense is appropriate to mention as our government and media support and/or triviliaze what has happened. So de-Nazification also is an appropriate rhetorical device. We need a government and media that respect human rights and holds that no one is above the law.

Most of all, the risks and moral courage of those who resisted participating in this evil should win out. We have a choice.


[ Parent ]
Shorter NB to Alyssa Peterson: (4.00 / 1)
"Sucker!"

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
Victims (4.00 / 1)
I agree with you on the higher ups.  But I think many here underestimate the evil of Bush's torture program and even the reasons why torture is so bad.  There are many, many victims.  Among the victims are the those that directly participated in the torture itself.  These are a changed people, just as we are a changed society.

When you torture someone you become a torturer.  I mean that at every level and every connotation to the word.

I don't have the time today (or probably even the writing skills) to get into why I consider the direct participants of the program victims more than criminals.  (Though they are both.)

But just stop and consider the possibility for a few moments.  You get orders from above and you convince yourself it is for the better good.  What does that do to you, experiencing that, knowing you did that.  (And for those that feel no remorse, the change is even worse, really, if less obvious to the person himself; though I'll admit if I met one I'd probably feel differently.)


The only people we know of (4.00 / 3)
who can torture without getting PTSD are sociopaths, because they cannot experience empathy. It's probably something to do with the way they are wired, lack of mirror neurons or something.

So yes, normal people who commit unspeakable acts are damaged by it, true, but how does this justify keeping them from facing charges?

If it is possible to heal from something  like that, remorse is a necessary step, and so is making amends.

Letting the torturers off the hook, "telling them hey, it's no big deal" does not do them any favors, really.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
One Of The Princople Reasons To Hold Trials Is DETTERANCE (4.00 / 4)
To help prevent countless others from this same fate.  Never forget that.

Furthermore, I'm quite sympathetic to this argument.  But it just doesn't excuse criminal culpability. I'm a huge SVU fan, and this is subject they deal with over and over again in different permutations.  It's almost always dealt with in some form of post-trial or at least not post-indictment fashion--special sentencing recommendations, alternative pleas, etc.

As I've mentioned elsewhere, I am a strong supporter of restitution, in place of prison.  Aside from actually doing something positive for victims, restitution has the added advantage of promoting attitudinal change in criminals.  It seems highly likely that it will prove very therapeutic for at least some non-trivial segment of those who engaged in torture.

But all of this is dependent on actually facing up to what we have done, or allowed to be done in our names.  If we don't do that, we cannot move forward in any meaningful sense.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
this is a huge issue (4.00 / 2)
And, we thought we had our hands full with the folks returning from Vietnam?

I've read countless appeals like Mark's.  Some more compelling than others, but most sincere, heartfelt, and genuine.  

I remind myself that an investigation does not automatically mean prosecution, and prosecution does not automatically mean a finding of guilt, and a finding of guilt does not mean there were no mitigating circumstances, and with, or without mitigating circumstances does not mean all sentences for those found guilty will all be the same.

I wonder ... have we lost all confidence in the ability of our judicial process, carefully and appropriately applied, to produce justice?


[ Parent ]
It's a good question, that.... (4.00 / 2)
I'd say not completely. The foundation is as admirable as it always was, but the what we've built on it in recent decades needs a thorough renovation. Years of overcrowding, administrative convenience, and the militarization of the system in the wake of support your local police, and the wars on drugs and terrorism have turned it into an abomination which no civilized person is bound to respect. Much as I despise ole Buck-heru from UT, I have to admit that it has indeed become the meatgrinder he claims it to be, and the desolation of all our hopes besides.

Still, I believe that we can and must do something about it. If we really want a civilized society, we have no choice.


[ Parent ]
The Rightwing Poisoning Of America (4.00 / 2)
I wonder ... have we lost all confidence in the ability of our judicial process, carefully and appropriately applied, to produce justice?

Actually, I think that's a very big part of it, and it's a natural consequence of the growth of rightwing power.  It's liberals who are interested in justice, with all the facets you so diligently ran through.  And while moderate conservatives have over time come to accept all this as "traditional", movement conservatives are hell-bent on destroying it, as the only "justice" they recognize is imposing their will on others.

Ironically, a key aspect of Obama's warped reasoning seems to derive directly from accepting this perverted notion of justice.  In his mind, true justice is not even in the realm of possibility.  Trials = witch-hunts, so let's not have them.

And he's a constitutional lawyer!

Good lord!  Give me a county deputy sheriff any day of the week!

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Worse -- (4.00 / 2)
he's declaring the torturers innocent by divine fiat. No trials necessary. It makes me very, very uncomfortable.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
2 related stories people should know -- about our torturing, and how we train others in it -- (4.00 / 3)
Dianna Ortiz
 --
Dianna Ortiz is an Ursuline nun from New Mexico who journeyed to Guatemala in the early 1980s as a missionary, teaching Mayan children in the highlands. After months of receiving threats, Ortiz was abducted and brutally raped by armed men in November 1989. One of the men overseeing the torture appeared to be American. The Inter-American Commission on Human Rights concluded that: "Sister Ortiz was placed under surveillance and threatened, then kidnapped and tortured, and that agents of the government of Guatemala were responsible for these crimes. . . including violating Dianna Ortiz's rights to 'humane treatment, personal liberty, a fair trial, privacy, freedom of conscience and of religion, freedom of association and judicial protection.'" Ortiz's ordeal did not end with her escape. Her torment continued as she sought answers from the U.S. government about the identity of her torturers in her unrelenting quest for justice. Ortiz's raw honesty and capacity to articulate the agony she suffered compelled the United States to declassify long-secret files on Guatemala, and shed light on some of the darkest moments of Guatemalan history and American foreign policy. ...

on our School of the Americas, now renamed --

http://www.soaw.org/pressrelea... -- Human Rights Advocates Face Six Months in Federal Prison for Nonviolent Direct Action Opposing the School of the Americas (SOA/ WHINSEC) --

...
The SOA/WHINSEC, a military training facility for Latin American security personnel located at Fort Benning, Georgia, made headlines in 1996 when the Pentagon released training manuals used at the school that advocated torture, extortion and execution. In spite of an aggressive international PR campaign and lobbying efforts on behalf of WHINSEC, support for the institute continues to erode. With over thirty-five Representatives who voted to continue funding the SOA/WHINSEC losing their seats in Congress on November 2008, human rights advocates have their sights set on pressuring the new Congress to permanently shut down the school in 2009. The last vote to defund the SOA/WHINSEC, in 2007, lost by a margin of only six votes.

The trial at the Federal Court in Columbus, Georgia will begin at 9am before Judge G. Mallon Faircloth, known for handing down stiff sentences to SOA/WHINSEC opponents. Since protests against the SOA/WHINSEC began 19 years ago, 237 people have served prison sentences of up to two years for nonviolent civil disobedience. ...

and from last year: Obama and the School of the Americas --  -- http://nacla.org/node/4777

... Obama likes to employ soaring rhetoric when discussing human rights. But late last year, he failed to take a strong position opposing WHINSEC. When pressed, the candidate praised Congress' revision of the school's curriculum but said that he wanted to continue to evaluate the institution.

What more information could Obama possibly need to reach a final decision on the matter? An Obama spokesman said the senator "has not committed to closing down the Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation, but he will take a hard look at the program and the progress it has made once he is elected." The spokesman reiterated Obama was pleased with the institution's inclusion of human rights courses. ...

also, Sites of Conscience is a great int'l resource on things like this, and more -- history and current events we all should know, but don't. -- http://www.sitesofconscience.o...


The Significance of Obama's Release of the Torture Memos (4.00 / 1)
I predict that the release of the torture memos is going to unleash an unstoppable tsunami of public revulsion within the U.S. and around the world.

This revulsion will eventually galvanize so much opposition to the torture committed during George W. Bush's tenure in office that:

1) All U.S. citizens and non-U.S. nationals responsible for formulating and implementing the Bush administration's policies that involved torture (according to the universally accepted definitions of torture that are contained in U.S. and international laws) will eventually be held accountable.

2) Old and new national and international laws will be reaffirmed and adopted that outlaw all the specific torturing practices condoned in the torture memos.

3) All of the opinion-makers in the U.S. media who condoned torturing practices such as those specified in the memo will justly be taken to task for years to come.

There is no doubt that the civic culture in the U.S. has been coarsened by the sadists in the Bush administration who approved and implemented the torturing practices.

Sadists have existed since time immemorial. They typically find outlets for their sick minds in places like the military, prisons, police forces and hospitals (where they constitute a small but influential minority). They get support from fellow sadists in the media and in medical and psychological professions (where they constitute a small minority).

The significance of the release of the torture memos is that they show that sadists worked their way into the highest echelons of U.S. government under the Bush-Cheney administration.

There, apparently through Cheney's initiatives, they were able to get Bush's authorization to override existing U.S. and international laws against torture and put into practice, with the help of sadists at lower levels of the military, illegal torturing of U.S. captives.

There is no doubt in my mind that there will be legions of Americans and human rights advocates from all over the world who will spend the rest of their days making sure that all those who transgressed U.S. and international laws against torture during the Bush administration are brought to justice and punished.

The tsunami of public revulsion that will eventually arise from the release of the torture memos is unstoppable.



I Sincerely Hope That You Are Right (4.00 / 1)
There is every reason you should be.  This record is one that cries out for action: Never again!

And the only way to ensure that is to hold those responsible accountable for their deeds.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
That's nice but, (4.00 / 1)
you are overlooking the fact that first Obama, and now his Chief of Staff Rahm Emmanuel, have said very clearly that they will not prosecute torturers.

If you are right, and the torturers are eventually tried it will be by international courts, not American ones, and US taxpayers will be picking up the bill for their lawyers.

Is this really some sort of grand strategy? It is already unleashing a tsunami of revulsion, but not one that Obama is likely to stay on top of.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
Neither Obama nor Emmanuel Can Stop the Tsunami or the Prosecutions (4.00 / 1)
Obama and Emmanuel can say whatever they wish.

But they are just transitory politicians.

In stark contrast, the acts of torture committed under the Bush administration will remain illegal acts forever for which there will always be an unlimited number of possibilities for prosecution.

Jay Bybee, for example, is toast, as far as I am concerned. There will be an unending clamor for his removal and he will eventually be removed.

In my mind, a government official who is now on public record as arguing in favor or violating U.S. and international laws prohibiting torture is not going to be permitted to be a federal judge in the United States.

What I think is that the torturing committed under the Bush administration is going to be the undoing of the whole era.

It is so outrageous and so intolerable to so many hundreds of millions of people on this planet that there is no way that those responsible are ever going to get out from under the rage that is going to spill over.

It may take years and even decades, but justice will be done.

Obama and Emmanuel can try to put their fingers in their imaginary dikes but the tsunami is going to just wash over the entire country until the perpetrators are prosecuted.



[ Parent ]
Congress Will Push For Action (0.00 / 0)
     We will get a special prosecutor.  Also, Holder has not slammed the door on this issue yet.

[ Parent ]
A final word on the Nazi comparison b.s... (4.00 / 1)
I feel Mr. Rosenberg's passion has turned into more of a deliberate hit piece on Obama himself.  He was not a fan before Obama won the election either.

As someone who travels frequently and hears the insults and wrath aimed at the US by the very same who consider themselves our key allies, prosecuting those lower echelon intelligence officials, whether military or civilian, is a serious proposition with intenational implications.

As of 2007, the last time accurate numbers were reported, international arrest warrants were issued for more than 39 CIA operatives.  Start a full blown public government run soul-saving trial with Courts run by dozens of hacks like Roberts and Scalia,  and we'll screw ourselves worse than ever because our intelligence information will stop dead, and so will those who hunt for it.

Personally, I want the leaders not the followers hung by their balls.  We'll get more justice and accountability if our government stays the hell out of it.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/...

http://www.talkleft.com/story/...

Nationalism is not the same thing as terrorism, and an adversary is not the same thing as an enemy.


So you believe torture "works," then? (4.00 / 2)
Why else would "intelligence information stop dead" if torture were investigated and prosecuted, as the law demands?

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
Hit piece on Obama? (4.00 / 1)
No; I don't think so.  Or, if you think so, then Paul Rosenberg simply joins the other A-List bloggers who haven't hesitated to criticize Obama when he's wrong - like, Glenn Greenwald, Jane Hamsher, Duncan Black, Digby, and Scott Horton ... To name just a few of them.  Criticism, sometimes harsh criticism, from Obama's left can help by providing him cover for more progressive stances.  

The Nazi parallels are there whether you want to see them, or not.  Whether you want to acknowledge them, or not.  Whether you want to act on them, or not.  The problem for Obama is, if he doesn't recognize, acknowledge and act in regard to those parallels - he will own them.  Right alongside George W. Bush.


[ Parent ]
Seconding What bystander Says (4.00 / 2)
If you look at our front page, you'll see a positive diary about Obama's high-speed rail plan, which I asked Robert in Monterrey to write for us back on Friday.

I had no idea at the time that I'd be writing so intensively and exclusively about the issue of torture.  I knew I'd write something about it, but I did not foresee having such an exclusive focus throughout most of the weekend.  Given that focus, one might think that Robert's diary would seem out of place, and that I might want to hold it, but--to the contrary--that's precisely why I wanted it to run as planned (the timing was Robert's choice).

Like it or not, we have to do multiple things at once, and I at least regard everything good that Obama wants to do as further proof that he can be pushed to do better on everything else.  So, naturally, I want to publicize and draw attention to what he's doing right on high speed rail, and what we can do to support him.

Your head can explode now.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
No need for heads to explode. (4.00 / 1)
"Right on rails, wrong on torture" works for me.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
Unconsciously adopting conservative memes? (0.00 / 0)
One reason that the path Obama has chosen is so wrong, and why vigorous de-Nazification is needed instead, is precisely so that the health, sanity and survival of the best among us no longer depend on such brief and unfortunately ineffectual encounters.  Rather, the virtue of soldiers such as Peterson and Williams needs to be made central, rather than peripheral... Their bond of common humanity and integrity needs to be the foundation on which the defense of our nation is built.  Because nothing less, nothing else can truly defend us.
(emphasis added...)

Before I begin explaining my emphasis and selection in the quote above, I want to briefly point out that while I understand the comparison that's being drawn here to Nazi Germany in terms of the citizenry, it might be read to imply that the American torture regime -- which was doubtless horrifying -- is equivalent to the Holocaust. Out of respect for the millions of lives lost in that genocide, acknowledgement of this inequality is perhaps merited.

That having been said, I find the above quote a bit upsetting. It tarnishes what is otherwise a heartfelt plea and a worthwhile read by adopting some of the language used by conservatives to pander to the oversized military establishment -- and often, conversely, to turn around and accuse its critics of a lack of patriotism or love for country. Soldiers (or, as some critics have aptly named them, the "warrior elite") come in a variety of persuasions. They join the military for various reasons -- some noble, others not; they can be generally kind and thoughtful people who intend to make a meaningful difference, or they can be violent and ignorant, looking for an excuse to release frustration on perceived "enemies". They are certainly not by definition better human beings or better citizens than non-soldiers.

As a corollary, the US military is a large sector of society built off the largesse of government spending (largely due to a vicious cycle of Republicans increasing it followed by Democrats meekly skirting the issue to avoid being lambasted for not "supporting the troops", the cardinal sin of American politics and, to some extent, culture) and private profiteering. It is very rarely used for "defense", instead largely being deployed to manipulate "American [always unstated: business] interests" abroad and to maintain a sort of hegemonic empire through a network of bases and Orwellian-named units ("peacekeeping troops", "non-combat special forces", etc.). It is not, as it is usually portrayed in the media, a glorious band of righteous warriors defending our freedom and our values.

I can think of many types of people who deserve to be venerated as national heroes. Teachers and doctors come immediately to mind, although even in these categories it would serve us well to distinguish the genuinely passionate from those motivated by ignoble concerns (e.g. greed). What about bus drivers? As someone who's had to depend on public transportation, they strike me as a particularly underappreciated segment of society. Can you even imagine how much better off we might be as a nation if it was political suicide to cut education in the same way it is to cut defense spending?

It's just disheartening to hear well-meaning liberals rallying others to their cause while simultaneously helping to prop up the ludicrous sanctity our institutions of violence [military, to some extent police] enjoy in our discourse, ostensibly because they "put their lives on the line". There are a large number of people encompassed by these terms who are usually not in any real danger. There is likely an even larger number who are not motivated (or ceased to have been motivated) by actual noble goals. It's insulting to the few who do qualify, and poisonous to the discourse at large, to continue this.


Dude, you bolded the wrong stuff. (0.00 / 0)
Says more about you than Paul.

Try this

One reason that the path Obama has chosen is so wrong, and why vigorous de-Nazification is needed instead, is precisely so that the health, sanity and survival of the best among us no longer depend on such brief and unfortunately ineffectual encounters.  Rather, the virtue of soldiers such as Peterson and Williams needs to be made central, rather than peripheral... Their bond of common humanity and integrity needs to be the foundation on which the defense of our nation is built.  Because nothing less, nothing else can truly defend us.

But then again,  the Holocaust happened, and therefore people in power can do whatever they want whenever they want from now on. Or something like that I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
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