Hope or Cynicism? You Have to Choose, Because They Don't Go Together.

by: David Sirota

Tue Apr 21, 2009 at 13:25


Note: I've learned something from the comments in this diary: Evidently, there is not just a hard-core contingent of people willing to pretend Obama did or didn't do things so as to make Obama look good, there is a contingent of folks who actually think it's great for politicians to make statements suggesting that their past promises - whatever those promises were - weren't serious. And I thought sycophantism went only as far as pretending up was down... - D

Back in February, I wrote a post about President Obama's dismissive attitude towards those who compare his previous promises/declarations with his current actions. At the time, he tried to add levity to the fact that he was appointing Hillary Clinton to Secretary of State despite the fact that the major point of policy contention between Obama and Clinton are their views on foreign policy.

This prompted ABC's Jake Tapper to wonder, "Are we supposed to act as if things politicians say during primaries are irrelevant and meaningless?" Now, this same question is relevant yet again, specifically on the issue of Cuba policy and trade.

Here's the Hill newspaper:

Obama also dismissed Sunday his reversal of policy on the Cuban trade embargo as first reported by ABC News. When asked by an ABC reporter why he had changed his position from 2004, when he said the embargo had failed, Obama joked of a faulty memory. "2004, that seems just eons ago," Obama said. "What was I doing in 2004? Oh, I was running for Senate, there you go."

Here's the New York Times:

The administration has no present plans to reopen negotiations on the North American Free Trade Agreement to add labor and environmental protections, as President Obama vowed to do during his campaign, the top trade official said on Monday.

These are both pretty bad on the substance, but the Cuba example is particularly awful on the rhetoric. Obama, the guy who asks us to hope and to see him as a post-partisan icon of integrity in a post-cynical era, is offering up the most cynical kind of message: He's pretty explicitly saying that past campaign promises aren't to be taken seriously, and really, anyone who does take them seriously is a dolt.

David Sirota :: Hope or Cynicism? You Have to Choose, Because They Don't Go Together.
I don't think you can read that dismissive line about his 2004 senate campaign any other way - and I say that because substantively, nothing has changed in the U.S.-Cuba relationship. Had something really changed in that relationship between 2004 and now, Obama could easily explain his apparent shift on the merits. But since nothing has, he's basically saying reporters - and thus, the public - should know that things promised on a campaign aren't to be taken seriously. He's basically saying, "Ha ha ha, you didn't really think my senate campaign promises were serious, did you?"

And it's the same thing with the NAFTA shift - nothing has changed in the U.S.-Canada-Mexico relationship between the time campaign promises were made, and today. That means the shift is purely political - and that the promises are being scoffed at.*

This kind of message is, as I said, genuinely cynical - and really, inappropriate for any politician to express. If we're supposed to believe in democracy, then we have to take campaign promises seriously. Thus, when politicians explicitly tell us that they themselves don't take their own promises seriously, that undermines all the foundational assumptions that our democracy is built on. It's one thing to offer up a logical reason for changing positions - that's AOK by me. It's quite another to change positions and then laugh at people for thinking you were serious about your original position - that's gross.

It doesn't matter where you come down on the NAFTA or Cuba issues, what matters here is that if politicians tell us they believe their campaign promises are a joke, then they make our whole political process a joke. And that's particuarly true for Obama, because his whole image is based on asking us to believe in his integrity. The fact is, you can't sow hope and cynicism at the same time - those two don't go together.

* By the way, I still hold out hope - based on the White House's rhetoric - that even though Obama is going back on his promise to reopen NAFTA, there will nonetheless be progressive trade policy changes soon. Likewise, I'm definitely encouraged by Obama's moves on Cuba, even if he is not yet lifting the embargo. But the point of this post, as noted, isn't really about the substance - it's about whether politicians should scoff at/ridicule their own promises, whatever those promises may be.

SIDENOTE: Why every time Obama breaks a promise, do some people insist that A) he has some secret Pony Plan to reverse breaking a promise B) that those upset about broken promises just don't "understand" what's happening C) that Obama is being misquoted or D) that apropos of nothing, he's at least better than George W. Bush. Have we become so deluded that we can't acknowledge broken promises for fear of offending the Dear Leader? I mean, Barack Obama may be the first (or perhaps only most recent) American politician in the world to break promises and have hordes of sycophants angrily insist he is fulfilling those very promises. It's actually amazing!


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as I showed before, (4.00 / 4)
Tapper flat out lied in that post, taking a quote out of context to have a completely different meaning.  It's shameful for you to quote it again.



New Jersey politics at Blue Jersey.


and his joke yesterday (4.00 / 3)
While less defensible, points out the obvious fact that a promise of how you would vote as a Senator is much different than a promise of what you would do in a different office.

It may also be that when running for city council, he promised to get more spending on a local school and yet didn't deliver it as President.  That's because they are different jobs.

Is Obama liberalizing policy towards Cuba? Yes.  So what's your complaint?  Did he promise during the campaign to lift the embargo in his first months?  



New Jersey politics at Blue Jersey.


[ Parent ]
Um, you can't be half pregnant... (4.00 / 4)
...just like you can't split that hair. Either you support ending the embargo, or you don't. Trying to say that he has some secret Pony logic that says he would support it as a senator but not as president is beyond silly - it's nonsensical.

[ Parent ]
that's absurd (4.00 / 3)
You are telling me I have to be cynical because, and these are literally the three issues you have cited:

1.  Obama appointed Hillary Clinton Secretary of State despite arguing that her foreign policy experience is not much better than his own during a hard-fought primary.

2.  Obama when running for Senator wanted to end the Cuba trade embargo, and in the first quarter of his first year as President he has loosen the embargo, a steps widely reported to improve relations and lead to eventual end of it.  By the way the embargo is a law and I for one would prioritize health care and the economy over it in the Senate.

3.  Obama as President has gone to Mexico and Canada, in both places stating in press conferences that he wants the labor and environment accords in the main agreement.  [Search for the transcripts.] Both foreign leaders resisted, but Obama's trade representative has stated that he thinks the agreements can be achieved without formally reopening the treaty.  Certainly he promised a more aggressive strategy in the primary debate, but the goal does not appear to be different, at least rhetorically.

Now I freely admit that we can be disappointed in all three of these, but it's not exactly the greatest series of betrayals in history, and none are grossly inconsistent with his campaign.  It doesn't involve secret pony plans, it is due to the fact that there are competing interests with power in this country and others.  I for one am hopeful while reserving my right to be cynical.

 

New Jersey politics at Blue Jersey.


[ Parent ]
No (4.00 / 3)
What I am saying is Obama can't simultaneously say we should trust his integrity, and then offer up a cynical view of politics that says we shouldn't trust campaign promises.

[ Parent ]
This Completely Obscures Your Views On Everything (4.00 / 1)
     If you consistedly see everything in black and white; constantly point out every single divergence from any progress made, than you will always see everything as a nail--and you as the Hammer.

[ Parent ]
Are You Talking About Yourself Here? (4.00 / 3)
It's true that David's more focused on criticizing Obama's short-comings.  But he's pretty consistent about pointing out what he still hopes for or sees as positive, too.

Given that so few progressive commentators as prominent as he is ever criticize Obama at all, he seems like he's doing just what he says he is--trying to push Obama in a more progressive direction.  If these efforts--and other factors--pay off, then I think you'll see a corresponding shift in the balance of David's posts.

In short, it's Obama who's driving this dynamic, not David.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Paul, I Have Been Reading A Lot Of Your Diaries (0.00 / 0)
and find a very sharp and insightful mind.  

    That said, you have constantly criticized Obama--with passion and logical arguments (though not always)--from the beginning.  So, anytime that you give him credit for anything it seems disgenious, because you constantly make it clear, that you don't trust him.
   I think Mike' recent diary on the trust factor goes to heart of the matter: it's irrelavant on how we liberals and progressives go about making change.

   The other day, Glenn Greenwald has a post that talked about how an elected official how move the minority opinion further along to consensus, citing Jim Webb's bold stance of prison reform.

    I am wondering how Glenn's feels about Webb's recent statements on EFCA?  Is he now a profile in weakness?  I know that the latter question is severe, but I wondering how you and Glenn feel about Webb's decision.  Calculating, cynical, simply a politician? What?

    Did Sheldon Whitehouse's statements last nght at give you any hope? Did Rahm's out of step comment with WH on Sunday lessen the cynical Obama? And does it not make more political sense, to handle through Congress and the Justice Department?
     


[ Parent ]
pretty silly - and guess what, he's not so different as you say (4.00 / 1)
That is not at all what he said. The only thing that encourages cynicism is for reporters, who oversimplify what someone said and cut own 90% of the statement, then claim we should be cynical.

Furthermore, you've gotten me to go look up what he said in 2004. Naturally, it is rather stronger than what he said, but it is not very different:

Youtube of Obama on Cuba in 2004.

Now, he said the policy has "failed" because people are not more free.  As you can see in the full statement below, this week he said almost the same thing:

Look, what I said and what I think my entire administration has acknowledged is, is that the policy that we've had in place for 50 years hasn't worked the way we want it to. The Cuban people are not free. And that's our lodestone, our North Star, when it come to our policy in Cuba.

This appears to me to be completely accurate description of his current position and his 2004 position.



New Jersey politics at Blue Jersey.


[ Parent ]
Is there any hope for you, David? (0.00 / 0)
What supper secret pony plan?  Obama took steps consistent with his statements and opinions of the past.  He hasn't implemented everything all at once, but has taken steps in the direction he has always agreed with.

You are such a black and white thinker I often wonder how you ended up liberal at all.  "Half pregnant".  Sheesh.  Turns out there a literally 55 gazillion things you can be half of, pregnancy is one of the exceptions.  Saying Obama lifted half the embargo isn't quite right, but it's pretty damn close.


[ Parent ]
Ah I see (0.00 / 0)
He lifted the embargo...but didn't, and said he probably wouldn't.

Right, I get it now.


[ Parent ]
Embargo (0.00 / 0)
You may have me on this one.  I'm Googling around trying to find what I thought happened, but I'm not finding what I'm looking for.

I was under the impression that embargo for some items and services had been lifted.  In particular, it was media related items that were lifted: DVDs, movies, TV, that kind of thing.  The thought being that items that would open up the country more were benificial, even as most of the embargo stays in place.  Obviously, even that would be less than half an embargo lifted, but that is what I was talking about.

However, I can't find a news story claiming these items are no longer included in the embargo.


[ Parent ]
In Michigan, he said: (4.00 / 3)
NAFTA was a mistake, and it needed to be renegotiated.  He said the auto industry and the unions were too important to the country to bust them to hell and back.  He said he was going to tax companies that offshore jobs, and he was going to repeal the Bush taxcuts.   As a Michigander, I don't see him doing anything he promised us.   Oh yeah, he never promised MI we would have facilitated access to welfare until now.  Apparently, he thinks we are going to need it since he's changed his mind on everything else.  

[ Parent ]
Tapper is a right wing hack.... (4.00 / 3)
His mentor, Mark Halperin, must be so proud!

REID: Voting against us was never part of our arrangement!
SPECTER: I am altering the deal! Pray I don't alter it any further!
REID: This deal keeps getting worse all the time!


[ Parent ]
Honestly, WTF are you even talking about? (4.00 / 4)
Are you claiming Obama didn't say this? Really? I mean...really?

"This is fun for the press to try to stir up whatever quotes were generated during the course of the campaign," President Obama said during his Transition in early December, when a reporter asked him about criticisms he and now-Secretary of State Clinton had made about each other's foreign policy views.

"They're your quotes, sir," said the reporter, Peter Baker of the New York Times.

"No, I understand. And you're having fun," Obama continued. "And there's nothing wrong with that. I'm not faulting it."

Ya, I guess that never happened...just like I'm sure water isn't wet...


[ Parent ]
Tapper was flat out dishonest (4.00 / 2)

Tapper states

1. Obama was answering a question about foreign policy views.  -- That is not the case, it was a question about credentials.

2. Obama's answer meant that questions are meaningless and reporters are supposed to have amnesia.  -- but he specifically said such questions are legitimate.

The sentences I bold below show that both of these are a false. Since you copied one of them you know it perfectly well. Now you when find me a quote that Obama says Clinton is not qualified to be Secretary of State or that he will not consider her for a Cabinet post write back.  I recall him saying she would considered for VP, which strongly suggests he did not think she was unqualified to hold a position in his administration.  Tapper was just being dishonest, and you should not jump on his boat.

Here is the question and the beginning of Obama's answer:

You've talked about the importance just now of having different voices and robust debate within your administration. But, again, going back to the campaign, you were asked and talked about the qualifications of the - your now, your nominee for secretary of state. And you belittled her travels around the word, equating it to having teas with foreign leaders. And your new White House council said that her resume was grossly exaggerated when it came to foreign policy. I'm wondering whether you can talk about the evolution of your views of her credentials since the spring.

OBAMA: Well, I mean, I think - this is fun for the press to try to stir up whatever quotes were generated during the course of the campaign. No, I understand. And you're having fun.

But the - and there's nothing wrong with that. I'm not - I'm not faulting it. But, look, I think if you look at the statements that Hillary Clinton and I have made outside of the heat of a campaign, we share a view that America has to be safe and secure. And in order to do that...



New Jersey politics at Blue Jersey.

[ Parent ]
You're still wrong. (4.00 / 3)
Obama was asked about his statements during the campaign being at odds with his nomination of HRC.

He said that stuff said during the heat of a campaign shouldn't be taken seriously, because what I really meant was [some other thing].

It's a red herring argument.

He said HRC had exaggerated grossly her foreign policy credentials.  When he nominated her, he said "we share a view that America has to be safe and secure."

That is a dodge.

I would agree with you that this incident isn't particularly important if it were an isolated one.  Since it is not, since he has reneged on many campaign promises, this exchange provides the clearest window into Obama's mind about how he looks at campaign promises.

He seems to be suggesting that campaign promises are all about the campaign, and not about the promises.

David is right.  If the left is to have any effect on pushing Obama to institute the progressive vision he laid out in the campaign, people like you need to stop making such disingenuous apologies for Obama when he abandons those promises.


[ Parent ]
Again, This Happened Through History (0.00 / 0)
     And it isn't going to change with the different hegemonic politcal and financial structures that exist currently.  Though, we (you) are making progress on a lot of fronts: campaign contributions, liberal & progressive media outlets, demographic changes that bode well for liberal and progressive causes.  That said, if anyone takes every word to heart in theater of politics, especially in campaigns, then one will be constantly feel betrayed. I don't think campaign forums are set up for honest debates in their current form.  Lastly, is Hillary Clinton going off on a completely different foreign policy than the Obama adminstration wants?  I think not.

[ Parent ]
. (0.00 / 0)
Well, I don't particularly see the point in bringing up the Hillary thing. Obama's foreign policy is exactly what he said it would be. That personnel = policy shit was always stupid in the first place. So is bringing up Cuba... Obama's stances in 2004 are somehow more relevant than the one's he gave in 2007? His campaign stance on Cuba was exactly what he did.

http://www.politifact.com/trut...

That NAFTA thing though... Obama literally gave two stances on the issue. One was, I'll renegotiate, the other was, I'll renegotiate if the other countries want to. The former obviously was a lie, the latter isn't going to happen because these countries aren't exactly upset with NAFTA. To me, this is one area where there was obvious contradictions in Obama's position and no one really pressed him on clearing it up. And I don't think Obama cared to make a concrete position because really the democrats aren't unified on the whole free trade vs. fair trade (if such a thing exists, I think it's political well wishing).

It isnt' really hope vs. cynicism, it's the fact that people need to concentrate on what's happening. Trade was obviously a wrinkle that Obama refused to iron out. And no one really cared to have him iron it out because they wanted to see the hillary (who might as well been the devil incarnate in some cirles) slayed.


Sure (4.00 / 1)
But it is still fair to hold Obama's statements against him to apply pressure.  

But yes, anyone who thought Obama was a solid Fair Trade guy wasn't paying much attention during the primaries.

If fact, once you take into account the various contradictory statements he made during the campaign and look at what promises he made consistently, Obama has done exactly what consistently promised.  The shock is the degree his presidency could be predicted by campaign rhetoric, not the lack of follow through.

If we aren't grading on a curve, Obama's contradictory statements on the campaign trail deserve all the criticisms he gets.  And as I said, it is fair to hold Obama accountable for his own statements.  But yes, none of this is surprising.


[ Parent ]
Please show (4.00 / 3)
me Obama's "contradictory statements on NAFTA"--the places where he said he wouldn't revisit the deal. I mean, yeah, there was the Goolsbie thing with Canada and his regretting his overheated rhetoric, but as far as I can recall, his desire to redo NAFTA seemed like a consistent position.

In any case, it's amusing-annoying to me now how often I hear Obama supporters and/or apologists say things like Well, of course he's not a fair trader, or, He never said he's be especially progressive on economics, given that a dominant meme during the primary was that there were no major differences among the candidates. Maybe more to the point, sure, his pandering was obvious to the politically astute, but 95 percent of the population had no way to know he was spewing bullshit on NAFTA.



[ Parent ]
"None Of This Is Surprising" (4.00 / 6)
Well, 90% of it isn't surprising, since I expected him to be lying about NAFTA and a whole lot more.

But the 10% I wasn't expecting--like how far he's willing to go to undermine the rule of law by backing the Bush/Cheney play--has been a real doozy.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Secrecy (0.00 / 0)
Yeah, the secrecy stuff really surprised me, as well.  I'm not surprised about the torture, though.  He never looked gung ho to prosecute anyone.  I was hoping he would just step aside and let his AG and/or Congress handle it.  I'm still see evidence of that, but only if he is really pushed.

[ Parent ]
Seems strange (4.00 / 2)
It seems strange to attack Obama from the left for his Cuban policy when he has done more to open Cuba in the past few weeks than anyone has done over the past, what?, 50 years?

On NAFTA, yeah, sure.  Until Obama shows any evidence of moving at all he deserves your wrath on the issue.  But Cuba??


I don't understand why people don't read (4.00 / 2)
It really is incredibly irritating when people comment on diaries that they don't bother to read:

* By the way, I still hold out hope - based on the White House's rhetoric - that even though Obama is going back on his promise to reopen NAFTA, there will nonetheless be progressive trade policy changes soon. Likewise, I'm definitely encouraged by Obama's moves on Cuba, even if he is not yet lifting the embargo. But the point of this post, as noted, isn't really about the substance - it's about whether politicians should scoff at/ridicule their own promises.  


[ Parent ]
You think the By The Way saves this? (0.00 / 0)
Just because you put in a BTW doesn't necessarily save the post.  Obama took steps in the direction of his earlier statements.  He didn't go all the way and joked about it.  This is fundamental to the meaning of the post, in my eyes, at least, even if you don't see it that way.

This is like a small child yelling from the back of the car "are we there yet" and then campaigning that the driver joked about it.  The side note doesn't save the post.


[ Parent ]
Willfully ignorant (4.00 / 2)
Ah I see - so you acknowledge you didn't read, and that I actually said what you criticized me for supposedly not saying...but somehow, I'm at fault.

Yes, yes. I get it now. You make perfect sense.


[ Parent ]
This Is Unfair Mark (4.00 / 3)
You really are mischaracterizing David's post.  I know you're one of the >>1% of Americans who actually read Obama's position papers in any depth, but Obama rather deliberately campaigned in a way that downplayed a lot of the subtlety that you were hip to, and played up a great deal the almost substance-free aspect of hope, change and trust, to which a few different major issues got appeneded at different points in the campaign.

Renegotiating NAFTA was certainly one of them, and a crucial one at that, since without shifting position on that during crucial Midwest primaries, Clinton might well have eeked out a nail-biter.

What's more, his Cuba position was part of progressive foreign policy cred that served to show there was more to the package than his 2002 anti-Iraq speech, which had been somewhat tainted in the eyes of some due to his later rhetoric and votes, basically failing to challenge Bush/Cheney in the way he might have been expected to.  This certainly helped with building the activist edge that helped him win the nomination.

You might build a case that David has overstated his case, but then, isn't that rather common in trying to make the case for one side in an argument?  You'd have a much harder time building a case that David is just plain wrong, because the contradictions he points to really are there, really do matter, and really were important during the campaign.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
The heart of the arguement (0.00 / 0)
The heart of David's arguement goes like this.  Let's take away the context and lay it out.  Let's say Sally makes two statements:

A) Sally lies
B) Sally admits she lied

Which two statements deserves criticism?  I think everyone agrees it is statement A.  But David isn't attacking statement A, he's attacking statement B.  That's just stupid.

But okay, perhaps he is just using statement B to highlight statement A.  That would be fair.  But the very line he felt the need to put in bold and italics:

But the point of this post, as noted, isn't really about the substance - it's about whether politicians should scoff at/ridicule their own promises, whatever those promises may be.

proves that, no, he really is talking about statement B.

-----

Now, I'd have a lot more sympathy if this was a post about something where Obama actually reversed himself on a campaign promise; say, FISA.  But given how lame and (IMO) dishonest Obama's actually response was to his FISA reversal, I tend to think I'd take this over that.  Of course, the truly honest answer of worrying about the general election and/or covering up for fellow Democrats and/or whatever, would be better still.

-----

So let's put this back in context, even though David thinks it is irrelevant.  Let's imagine two scenarios:

1) Obama makes campaign promise to end the embargo on Cuba.  Once in office, he announces he will do no such thing, the embargo stays intact.  Obama then jokes about why he reversed himself.

2) Obama says he believes the embargo on Cuba is wrong.  A couple months into a very busy presidency he takes major steps towards fulfilling that desire.  Had he done nothing at all, nobody would have noticed.  But Obama does not end the full embargo at this time.  Obama jokes about it.

I'm supposed to believe context doesn't matter?  No, sorry.  I'm not buying that bridge.


[ Parent ]
Your statement B (4.00 / 2)
B) Sally admits she lied

Isn't a fair representation of what Obama said. If it were, all of us, including David, would be cheering his honesty.



[ Parent ]
Fair Enough, But (4.00 / 1)
you should be self-conscious enough to realize how much your different perspectives influence how both of you are reading this.

I, personally, really despise the meta-stuff that David's trying to highlight here, not just on a fingernails-on-the-chalkboard level (though that certainly bugs me), but also because that meta-level stuff really does have a pervasive impact on how policy plays out.  David may not have done the best job of articulating his argument to your satisfaction, but that doesn't mean he doesn't have a point.  Your point may matter more to you, but that's not the same as proving that David has no point.

Part of what's behind my intervention here, btw, is that you and David seem very much at odds with one another, while you and I seem to communicate much better.  Yet, at the same time, I perceive David as much more optomistic about Obama than I am.

So I think there's definitely some sorting out of substantive positions vs. communication styles to be done here.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I know, I know (4.00 / 1)
At the end of the day, it may well be that David and I agree more than you and I.  But I fundamentally understand why you have your opinions.  I've got nothing on David.

Ok, that isn't quite true.  Getting back to temperament (response I gave below), I'm fairly certain David's an ESFJ, where I'm an INFP.  Our one overlap is we are both emotional.  :-)  (I'm guessing you are INTJ, btw.  Am I close?)  David talks about trees and you talk about forests.  I get forests; trees don't mean that much to me.

I keep promising myself I'll stop posting negative responses to David's posts and usually do okay for a week or two.  I don't know why I let myself get sucked in, particularly on a post like this which isn't all that important.  Actually, that may be it, because this post isn't all that important I let my guard down.  There is no substantive policy point here; no case for "make him do it".

While I don't understand David all that well, I support what he is doing.  It is a role someone needs to play and he seems to be very good at it, even if it doesn't work for me, personally.


[ Parent ]
Fair Enough, But (0.00 / 0)
you should be self-conscious enough to realize how much your different perspectives influence how both of you are reading this.

I, personally, really despise the meta-stuff that David's trying to highlight here, not just on a fingernails-on-the-chalkboard level (though that certainly bugs me), but also because that meta-level stuff really does have a pervasive impact on how policy plays out.  David may not have done the best job of articulating his argument to your satisfaction, but that doesn't mean he doesn't have a point.  Your point may matter more to you, but that's not the same as proving that David has no point.

Part of what's behind my intervention here, btw, is that you and David seem very much at odds with one another, while you and I seem to communicate much better.  Yet, at the same time, I perceive David as much more optomistic about Obama than I am.

So I think there's definitely some sorting out of substantive positions vs. communication styles to be done here.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Oops, sry misunderstanding! Thought you had something substantial to say. (0.00 / 0)
So, this is only a rant about politicians and promises. OK. Well, is there any politician who ever fulfilled all promises, or at least tried? And secondly, what's the half life of a campaign promise? Is it fair to hold politicians responsible for things they promised 20 years ago? 10 years? 4 years? Where's the maigc limit?

[ Parent ]
Nope (4.00 / 5)
Any politician who kept their promises?  No.  But that isn't the point.  Obama promised a new kind of politics.  Among the ways in which it was supposed to be new was honesty.  Or at least that was what I was heard from him and other people making phone calls with me.

He promised a new kind of politics and he hasn't engaged in a new kind of politics.  As you point out, he is very much like every other politician.  The problem is that a lot of people still think he is practicing a new brand of politics. Progressive pressure will be hard to generate when most of the people disposed to accept progressive positions think that Obama's politics are something other than warmed over Clintonism.  You won't be able to mobilize them to engage in the right kinds of politica activity if you don't first convince them that the system is broken enough that you can't rely on exceptional individuals to fix it for you.

As for the half life of campaign promises, I would think the reasonable thing to do would be to hold politicians accountable for promises just as long as you would hold anyone else accountable for a promise about something of great significance.  It seems to me thinking of it in terms of a time limit is shallow.  When you promise to be faithful to your spouse (I use this example too much) no one thinks there is an implicit time limit on the promise.  The promise is in play until the conditions in which the promise was made change.  If the spouse dies, leaves, cheats on you first, etc. than the presuppositions built into the promise no longer hold, and it is no longer reasonable to hold the person to the promise.  Similarly if we had found out that Cuba had created a pool of slave labor ready to use in service of creating goods to sell to America, that would be the kind of pressuposition defeating fact that should lead any rational person to treat Obama's promise as no longer relevant.  Which is why Sirota has been asking, 'What has changed in our relationship with Cuba?'  Something has to change for the promise not to hold.  

And before you start in with 'its stupid to expect politicians to keep their promises' notice that I am not talking about expecting them to do anything.  I am talking about holding them accountable for not doing it.  We know it is unreasonable to expect everyone to follow the laws.  That fact has nothing to do with whether we should hold people accountable for breaking the law.


[ Parent ]
Good points, but pls note... (0.00 / 0)
..that I already did see the "changing conditions" arguement as crucial in my other comment in this thread. So, we're not far apart on this. And I guess Sirota accepts that campaign promises are subject to changing circumstances, too. Of course, this still leaves the question of evaluation: When has the situation changed so much that the promise has become moot?

However, this doesn't seems to be the point of argument here. Instead, Sirota seems to criticize Obama for not moving fast enough to get rid of the trade sanctions against Cuba. This is confusing me, since free trade with Cuba would likely lead to the very same consequences that Sirota is vehemently criticizing regarding NAFTA. Isn't David afraid of simply exchanging cheap workers in Mexico for their brethren in Cuba? That danger is real if the US try to move to fast and get into an unfavorable new trade agreement. So, to me this looks like Sirota is somehow using a double standard in this case.

But, ok, I'm very often in conflict with David's arguments, no big deal. And imho this is much less important now than the unconvincing stance Obama shows towards torture. This urgent issue should have a much higher priority, and getting distracted from it isn't really helpful. But that's just my two eurocent.


[ Parent ]
"nothing has changed in the U.S.-Cuba relationship"??? (0.00 / 0)
Excuse me pls, but polls have changed! Nowadays,a majority supports a normalisation of relations between Cuba and the US. The reason for this may be that since early 2008, Raul Castrol took over the presidency, and ven though he hasn't totally reversed the course, he has implemented some reforms, for instance a lossening of travel regulations. Imho, if the situation changed, you can't blame a politician for adjusting his stance to the new conditions. Not to speak of that a president has the ability to execute policies that would be nearly impossible to implement for a Senator.

So, I think your criticism of the slightly altered Cuba policy is unfair. And I can't really see how this is related to NAFTA. Do you fear cheap competition from Cuban workers any time soon? D'oh.


I'd rather take the Progress we can under Clinton II (0.00 / 0)
than take a risk of resurrecting the Nixonian wing of the GOP.

Better to spend energy "growing liberalism" than fighting Obama.


I really don't mind pushing Obama (0.00 / 0)
In theory, I have no problem with this.  But the specifics; yikes.

Apparently David just loves the way most politicians speak, where they are careful to never actually say anything, always giving vague non-answers.

But obviously I just worship Dear Leader, because it would be impossible to actually disagree with what David is saying.  His logic is always perfect and his opinion never beyond reproach.

To be fair, though, there is a bit of Dear Leaderism in my response.  You see, I like the way Obama jokes and doesn't take himself too seriously, even as he takes the job seriously.  This is totally outside of policy, so it does, in fact, come down to personal taste.  


[ Parent ]
Excuse me (4.00 / 3)
Obama basically says that he made a campaign promise on a pretty important issue, jokes that, in effect, he only did so for political expediency, and you find that refreshing and charming?

Please, Mr Politician, lie to us! And when you're finished, laugh because so many people believed your lies! It's so refreshing!


[ Parent ]
Compare and Contrast (0.00 / 0)
I only think that within the context of other politicians just lying all the time and not even attempting to address the reality of politics.

As far as campaign promises go, Obama actually promised to not lift the embargo.  I hadn't realized that until Googling around today, looking for something else.

May 23, 2008

Miami, FL (AHN) - Attending a celebration held by the influential Cuban American National Foundation in Miami, Sen. Barack Obama (D-IL) promised to continue the economic embargo against the Castro regime until political and social freedoms are brought to Havana.

Which goes to show how we are all hypocrites to some degree.  We want Obama to break this campaign promise.  We criticize broken promises when it meets our agenda, not because we put all that much worth on the promises themselves.  When we agree, it is call "changing your mind", which is always ok, as long as the change is in our favor.


[ Parent ]
This is a good point (4.00 / 1)
But it seems like David's point in another guise.  He is saying we should be cynical in our approach to Obama because Obama breaks campaign promises.  You are saying that he made contradictory promises.  That is also a reason to be cycnical.  

I think people are missing David's point.  This is understandable because his writing style is often way over the top.  But all he is saying, I take it, is to treat Obama as you would any other politician, with cynicism and distrust.  Most of the responses to David's post are 'What do you expect, he is a politician', and those don't address the issue.  To those of you who admit he lied during the campaign about this issues, I think you are not who David is trying to convince.


[ Parent ]
"treat Obama as you would any other politician" (0.00 / 0)
I certainly agree with that; always have.

But I also approach how to look at any politician differently then (it seems, at least) David does.  When a candidate runs for office I try to figure out how they approach problems, what their fundamental beliefs are and so on.  I expect reality will mess up specific details of promises, anyway, even assuming 100% honesty.

I think it comes down to personality and temperament.  In Meyers-Briggs tests I come down 100% on the iNtuitive side, literally score a 0 on Sensing.  (If that makes no sense, feel free to ignore it.  :-)


[ Parent ]
. (0.00 / 0)
He never made contradictory promises unless you want to pretend his agenda from his 04 senate campaign should be exactly the same as his agenda for his 08 presidential campaign.

I mean, why would you be dredging up quotes from 04 to hold him accountable to if he fuckin flat out gave you a new agenda in 08. That's nonsensical to me.

Really the only thing I'll concede Obama taking both sides of the fence on is free trade. Like Paul said, it was easy to sense that he wasn't being up front about what he was saying. Whether it was his advisors saying other things or Obama himself hedging his bets.

But everything else i tend to take a "grow the fuck up" view about. He told you what he was going to do and you voted for him. Too late to blame him for it now, whether it's the bank bailout, afghanistan, or not criminally prosecuting the bush admin.


[ Parent ]
Why shouldn't we hold him accountable for '04? (4.00 / 2)
I don't follow the Cuba issue at all.  It is way, way down on my list of priorities, and I am not that informed about it.  But what strikes me as really deeply wrong is this idea that we should only hold Obama accountable for what he said in running for president.  In '04 he took a policy position.  Unless we are just being cynical about his reasons for doing so from the get go (in which case I take it that you are agreeing with sirota about how to treat Obama), then we should assume that there was some policy relevant reason for why he took the position he did.  When he made a promise in '08 that went against that policy position he contradicted himself, unless he gave reasons why the policy position was a good idea in '04 and not a good idea in '08.  The only way I can see of justifying hte claim that we only hold politicians accountable for what they said in the last election cycle is if you already are assuming that the only reason they make the commitments they do is to get elected.  If you treat policy positions as tools to gain votes then you recognize that he took the position he did in '04 to get votes from liberals in Illinois and he said what he said in '08 to get votes from conservative Cuban expats in Florida.  If you don't treat him as taking the positions he does not because of the merits of the position, but because of its usefullness in getting votes, then it makes sense to ignore the '04 quote.  But if you take him to be saying what he thinks the best policy for America is, then I see no reason the '04 quote shouldn't matter.

So if you are already cynical, great.  Then you aren't who Sirota is trying to convince.  I would suggest though that instead of throwing out condescending lines like 'grow the fuck up' you actually spend some time thinking about what is being said to you.  Sirota is not expressing surprise that Obama is behaving like a normal politician, but simply pointing out that he is behaving like any normal politician.  In the campaign he said what he knew he needed to say to get elected, and as President he is doing what he thinks he needs to do to preserve the political capital he needs to get his goals satisfied.  We aren't expressing surprise.  Its not like we all thought he would keep his word.  But, and I feel like this is going to come off just as patronizing as you came off, there is a difference between what you predict and expect Obama to do, and whether what Obama is doing is ok.  We don't need to grow the fuck up, you need to realize that Sirota can point out Obama's failings without his being surprised that Obama has such failings.


[ Parent ]
Not Clinton II-- (4.00 / 1)
Obama.

Sooner or later he needs to take responsibility for his own actions and stop blaming someone who left office eight years ago.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
bizarre (0.00 / 0)
What are you talking about?  Did he blame Bill Clinton for appointing Hillary Clinton as SoS, relations with Cuba, or NAFTA?


New Jersey politics at Blue Jersey.

[ Parent ]
Whenever he fucks up people call him (4.00 / 3)
"Clinton."

And it pisses me off because when he was campaigning, Obama praised Reagan and dissed Clinton. It really made me wonder whose side he's on. I'm still wondering.

If Obama turns out to be half as progressive as Clinton, I'll be happy.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
Stylistic issues (0.00 / 0)
I think his praise of Reagan and disdain for Clinton had to do with the type of politics they practiced.  Clinton's politics was one of small ideas, deal making and triangulation.  He got a lot done, and some of what he did was helpful, but he was not arguing boldly for his positions from a general account of political morality or national identity.  Its clear that Obama prefers politics with a little more flair and grandiosity.  At least in public.  When it comes down to policy decisions I have trouble distinguishing his approach from Clinton's.  If Obama ends up being more progressive I am betting it will just be because the republican party is so much weaker now than it was in the 1990s.

[ Parent ]
What? (4.00 / 1)
I am not seeing a lot of flair and grandiosity. Nothing like Clinton's attempt to hit the ball out of the park in his first at-bat, trying to reform healthcare and integrate the military.

Obama's approach seems far more timid and incremental to me, and it makes  less sense because he is facing the weakest GOP in decades, while Clinton faced the strongest.

But we'll see.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
Dribbler to First (0.00 / 0)
The health care plan and gays in the military were hardly attempts to hit the ball out of the park.  His healthcare plan was extrmely pro-corporate, and far short of anything that could be called a progressive reform of health care, at least as far as I was concerned.  And the process that led to Don't Ask Don't Tell would actually be my prime example of the smallness of Clinton's politics.  He made a campaign issue out of equality for homosexuals in the military, let Powell know he was interested in pursuing the issue once he was elected, and when Powell said no, rather than take a stand both for equality and civilian control of the military, Clinton backed down to avoid a fight and settled for a comprimise which didn't really make anything better (if you are in the military and there is evidence you are gay, then you are dishonorably discharged.  And now the government is officially in favor of encouraging homosexuals to hide their sexual orientation).  Compare Clinton's half hearted prevaricating move towards equality for homosexuals in the military to Truman's forced racial integration of the military in the face of even greater opposition from America at large and from the Pentagon, and you get a sense of why I think of Clinton the way I do.

[ Parent ]
I didn't say he didn't fail. (0.00 / 0)
But he tried. He had heart.

I'm not seeing a lot of that from Obama right now.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
I am saying he failed (0.00 / 0)
because he didn't really try.  He sounded Colin Powell out on the idea and the backed down as soon as Powell showed resistance (to his commanding officer by the way).

As for health care reform, he did try, its just that given what he was trying to do I am not sure that his trying to do that is something to give him credit for.


[ Parent ]
Tell you what (4.00 / 1)
if Obama's healthcare reform is LESS corporate friendly than what Clinton tried, then you win, hands down. But I'm not holding my breath.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
WHICH corporations? (0.00 / 0)
Sometimes "corporate friendly" tells the story, but this is not one of those cases.  What's good for GM, hospitals, insurance companies are three different things.

I assume you mean insurance companies.


[ Parent ]
Pharmaceutical (0.00 / 0)
and insurance.

The people who created the mess we are in now, with the most expensive, least accessible healthcare system in the developed world -- these are the ones Obama will cater to the most.

Like the Wall Street bailout.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
Fair enough (0.00 / 0)
Though in fairness to your position, the American people seem to be a lot less ready to swallow bullshit about the evils of socialism now than they were in 93.  So it will be easier for Obama to be more ambitious.

[ Parent ]
Yes but, (4.00 / 1)
does HE know that?

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
I'm agreeing with Sadie Baker again? (0.00 / 0)
If Obama turns out to be half as progressive as Clinton, I'll be happy.

I got killed, dismembered, and eaten on Daily Kos for claiming Obama was less progressive than the Clintons!

So what's with all those 50 TR's you keep slapping on my comments?

Is it because I support Kucinich? Are you a total Clintonista? Or is "Sadie Baker" just some netbot for generating random comments?

Or what?


[ Parent ]
Even I agree now, (4.00 / 1)
it's weird. I'm getting 4s from you and kanzeon? What's next, cats and dogs living together?

The reason I'm so free with the TRs is the same reason I have to stick up for Clinton. It's a tribal thing. When you go after someone I consider a friend or ally, I go after you.

And I'll tell you a secret, sometimes I think you say some really right-on things. I never gave you a 4 before (again, the tribal thing) but since you have broken the ice on that one, from now on I will.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
Final conclusion (0.00 / 0)
Perhaps it is just me, but I seem to remember the final conclusion was Clinton was slightly better with domestic policy and Obama was slightly better with foreign policy, but in reality the two would be nearly identical in both counts.

[ Parent ]
But here is where hope comes back into the (0.00 / 0)
picture.

I believe Obama is basically the same as Bill Clinton, which is why it makes me mad when people use the word "Clinton" as an insult. It means they think Obama is inherently superior somehow.

But the world of 2009 is not the world of 1992. It's an almost perfect experiment -- what happens when you put the same man in two different environments? You get different (hopefuly better) results.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
I also made that point (0.00 / 0)
Even if we used a time machine and snatched a 46 year old Bill Clinton, the end result would be much different today than it was 16 years ago.

I did rule out Hillary early on, but the reason was no fault of hers.  I simply don't like the idea of dynasties or the feel of someone enheriting the presidency.  I felt that way despite the fact I agreed she was highly qualified for the position and would do a good job overall.


[ Parent ]
I agree with you David (4.00 / 5)
about the quote from Obama on his change in his Cuba policy.

Truly, that quote is breathtaking. I'm not sure I can even think of a quote from another national politician that is so cynical about his reasons for stating and holding his own positions.

Thought experiment for the "progressives" out there who have no real problem with Obama "joking" like this: imagine the same words coming out of Bush's mouth about his own campaign promises. How many hours, days, months, and years would you continue bringing it up to demonstrate how depraved and amoral is Bush and every Republican?

Of course, I know that these "progressives" can't really engage such a thought experiment. They will always find some dishonest way to distinguish their reactions to Bush's saying such a thing from their reactions to Obama's statement.

What makes them faux progressives, at base, is, I think, precisely their inability to look at their own behavior, and put the shoe on the other foot.  


Actually (0.00 / 0)
This is exactly the kind of thing I did defend Bush on.

[ Parent ]
Like to see (0.00 / 0)
an example of Bush or any other national politician saying something so cynical about his motives for stating and holding a position.

And I'd like to see an example of you defending Bush against the charge that he was extremely cynical to do so.


[ Parent ]
. (0.00 / 0)
While I actually do find Obama to have a cynical side that often rears it's head, this is Tapper being a dumbass. I mean, if a reporter's point is so obviously ridiculous, then it's response isn't going to be serious.

It makes zero sense to hold Obama accountable to positions he had running for a different position with a different constituency. I mean, primary promises matter, but he never made any promise to end the Cuban embargo during the primary in the first place.


[ Parent ]
too funny - you've outdone yourself (4.00 / 1)
I look forward to this being remembered as the most cynical statement by an American politician:

Q Thank you, Mr. President. You've heard from a lot of Latin America leaders here who want the U.S. to lift the embargo against Cuba. You've said that you think it's an important leverage to not lift it. But in 2004, you did support lifting the embargo. You said, it's failed to provide the source of raising standards of living, it's squeezed the innocent, and it's time for us to acknowledge that this particular policy has failed. I'm wondering, what made you change your mind about the embargo?

THE PRESIDENT: Well, 2004, that seems just eons ago. What was I doing in 2004?

Q Running for Senate.

THE PRESIDENT: Is it while -- I was running for Senate. There you go. Look, what I said and what I think my entire administration has acknowledged is, is that the policy that we've had in place for 50 years hasn't worked the way we want it to. The Cuban people are not free. And that's our lodestone, our North Star, when it come to our policy in Cuba.

It is my belief that we're not going to change that policy overnight, and the steps that we took I think were constructive in sending a signal that we'd like to see a transformation. But I am persuaded that it is important to send a signal that issues of political prisoners, freedom of speech, freedom of religion, democracy -- that those continue to be important, that they're not simply something to be brushed aside.

What was remarkable about the summit was that every leader who was participating was democratically elected. We might not be happy with the results of some elections; we might be happier with others; we might disagree with some of the leaders, but they all were conferred the legitimacy of a country speaking through democratic channels. And that is not yet there in Cuba.

Now, I think that as a starting point, it's important for us not to think that completely ignoring Cuba is somehow going to change policy, and the fact that you had Raul Castro say he's willing to have his government discuss with ours not just issues of lifting the embargo, but issues of human rights, political prisoners, that's a sign of progress.

And so we're going to explore and see if we can make some further steps. There are some things that the Cuban government could do. They could release political prisoners. They could reduce charges on remittances to match up with the policies that we have put in place to allow Cuban merican families to send remittances. It turns out that Cuba charges an awful lot, they take a lot off the top. That would be an example of cooperation where both governments are working to help Cuban families and raise standards of living in Cuba.

So there are going to be some ways that the Cuban government I think can send some signals that they're serious about pursuing change. And I'm hopeful that over time the overwhelming trend in the hemisphere will occur in Cuba, as well. And I think that all of the governments here were encouraged by the fact that we had taken some first steps. Many of them want us to go further, but they at least see that we are not dug in into policies that were
formulated before I was born.

Do you people really think we just read the out-of-context sentence?

New Jersey politics at Blue Jersey.


[ Parent ]
Sorry, But Hopeful In NJ Has Won This Argument (4.00 / 1)


[ Parent ]
Yeah, whatever (0.00 / 0)
I should think that if he "won the argument", either you or he could actually make the argument -- rather than acting as if the quotes "prove" it.

Just lame.


[ Parent ]
No. (4.00 / 1)
His transcript isn't even an argument.

That transcript does nothing to help Obama's position, except couch his argument for abandoning past positions in a bunch of other reasonable sounding sentences.

If you cut out all the other essentially meaningless statements in that response, you are left with:

Q: You used to support lifting the embargo, now you do not.  Why?

Obama: Yeah, that was a while ago.  Welp.  but hey, look at these other things I support, now!

And that's it.

He just said it in a way that seems to leave a lot of people somehow imagining that he didn't actually abandon his former position for ending the embargo.

How do you not understand this?


[ Parent ]
I don't even get (4.00 / 3)
the point of the quote from your transcript.

It says nothing relevant to undo the implications of what Obama said. At best, it tries to drown what he said in all manner of surrounding verbiage to dilute its effect.

In other words, all you seem to be trying to do here is obfuscate the point.


[ Parent ]
He's the american idol president ... (0.00 / 0)
... he gave us the best song and dance about all the wonderful things he was going to do for us.  Now after we elected him, he's laughing in our faces and telling us that he was just lip synching.  

Z


My Fear Is (4.00 / 4)
that Obama's charisma--plus the appalling nature of the GOP alternative--will immunize him from serious scrutiny for quite some time, so that he won't get the sort of negative feedback needed to sensibly correct direction.

Then, at some point down the line, he will go one step too far, and all the cynical business-as-usual dealings he's done will come back to bite him all at once.

This is, to some extent, a fairly decent parallel to what happened to LBJ on Vietnam.  (It wasn't charisma that was carrying him, obviously.  More like Washington gravitas, plus the Cold War consensus.) But with Obama, it applies to so many different facets of his political agenda that it's easier to think about where it doesn't apply.

Any way you look at it, though, the end results are not pretty.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


Well, I believe (4.00 / 1)
it will be the economy, not any sort of political opposition or political trouble, that will force a correction and by then it might be too late.

[ Parent ]
Agreed (0.00 / 0)
The economy is almost always where it comes from, and it's unlikely that Afghanistan will become prominent enough to break that pattern.

Still "the economy" covers a whole lot of territory in these treacherous times.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
The pushback on torture (4.00 / 1)
seems to be having an effect, though. He issued a "correction" or whatever, reversing course, or opening the door to reversing course.

But I agree with your general point, that the halo effect is as much a curse as it is a blessing. It can lead to some nasty falls.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
LBJ (0.00 / 0)
With you on every point but LBJ and charisma.  LBJ was an incredibly charismatic guy in real life.  Many of us of our generation tend to think of the LBJ on TV defending the indefensible when we remember LBJ, and forget the lively, personable man who rose through congress to the vice presidency on the power he'd gathered using his charm and intellect.

LBJ loved the idea of television, but was always uncomfortable in front of a TV camera, and tended to adopt his idea of a presidential persona in his TV addresses that unfortunately made him appear dull and flat and near the end, broken.

"Ignorance is the most dangerous element in any society." - Emma Goldman


[ Parent ]
Blockade Congressional? (4.00 / 1)
I may be way off base here--relying on memory--but wasn't the blockade the result of an act of congress?  If that's correct, then Obama doesn't have the authority to lift it.  Congress has to do that.

Which really is beyond the point.  Cuba policy and NAFTA were poor examples for David's point, only the most recent obvious ones. They're of minor import when compared to his disappointing abandonment of his pledges to the constitution and the rule of law.  First, his AGs argue for the expansion of presidential power to order warrantless spying on us, then he refuses to order investigation and prosecution of war crimes committed under the previous administration, in direct and intentional violation of both U.S. and international law!

At any other time, this latter decision would be seen broadly as an impeachable offense, but Obama is gambling that he is protected by the "there's nobody else" factor.  And I think he's correct -- at least for now.  Do we really want Joe Biden in the White House right now?  The unthinkability of a President Biden puts even being aware of the idea of impeachment so far off the table that it's on another continent.



"Ignorance is the most dangerous element in any society." - Emma Goldman


Profoundly Revealing (4.00 / 1)
The two instances provide real insight into the heart of the meritocratic, elite oriented, beltway mindset of which Obama is perhaps the purest representative.  

Namely, there is one story (on NAFTA, EFCA, Detroit, Wall Street etc.) you direct towards what Walter Lippman called the "ignorant meddlesome masses" and another which you share with carefully selected insiders who know the score and can be trusted not to spill the beans as to what's really going on.

It is also relevant to the previous thread having to do with protest, and the contempt which Obamaphiles have for "wackos"-a code word for the overwhelming majority of the population who are the victims of their policies.

Something to keep in mind: when they say they oppose protest, what they really mean is that they fear it, and the expression of unfiltered, popular politics which it represents and, at least potentially, portends.

That's why, in case there was any doubt, protest is essential as the only means of instilling fear in politicians.

The progress we make is directly proportional to the fear they have of us.


Meritocratic elite . . . (0.00 / 0)
isn't that what we used to call, in the eighties anyway, "yuppies?"

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
The Trope: Meritrocratic, Elite Oriented, Beltway Mindset Is (0.00 / 0)
getting old, especially when you use in every one of your comments in some form or another.

    No shit, Washington is broken, but don't try to make every Democrat or Obama stained with blood on their hands.  Seriously, cry me a river. Change will be a long and patient process.  Maybe you should read Taylor Branch on the subject--especially concerning movements that are successful, and Mike's book.  


[ Parent ]
If the shoe fits . . . (4.00 / 1)
In case you didn't notice, the purpose of the posting was to argue for the necessity of protest, the main, indeed the only weapon which MLK had at his disposal. How dare you recommend Taylor Branch's book when the Obamaites and Kosnik enablers are the heirs to the self-satisfied Urban League elites who counseled patience and faith in the system all the while perpetually redbaiting MLK for his ties to the pink left.

Who they are, and who you are, is revealed by a palpable contempt for democracy and of those who are both their main constituency and the victims of their policies.

It is you, and the dear leader attitudes which you blindly accept, which will insure that Obama will continue down the path to abject failure-with the price paid by everyone.


[ Parent ]
Why? (0.00 / 0)
A) he has some secret Pony Plan to reverse breaking a promise B) that those upset about broken promises just don't "understand" what's happening C) that Obama is being misquoted or D) that apropos of nothing, he's at least better than George W. Bush.

You don't assume we have any professional spinners here?

My blog  


Do you have to choose between hope and cynicism? (4.00 / 1)
I find myself bouncing like a box of superballs between those two poles on an almost hourly basis.

David, a couple of hours ago, I praised you for your great interview on CNN.  You there defended yourself and Obama against a Republican operative who ATTACKED the both of you for putting his (silly) campaign promises against America's supposed "security needs".  Now you've got yourself all het up by other instances in which Obama has seemed to sneer at his own campaign promises.  And you're not wrong to do so.

Hope and cynicism: we should not choose between them, we need them both!

The point, as always, is to figure out how to build the movement that will fight for what we need whether or not Obama is on our side.

sTiVo's rule: Just because YOU "wouldn't put it past 'em" doesn't prove that THEY did it.


Put forth a serious argument and people will take you seriously david (4.00 / 1)
Have we become so deluded that we can't acknowledge broken promises for fear of offending the Dear Leader?

Your basic argument almost always boils down to the idea that everyone who disagrees with you is deluded.  Do you expect serious debate with that?

http://transgendermom.blogspot....


And, as usual, he distorts the views of his critics! (0.00 / 0)
"Evidently, there is not just a hard-core contingent of people willing to pretend Obama did or didn't do things so as to make Obama look good, there is a contingent of folks who actually think it's great for politicians to make statements suggesting that their past promises - whatever those promises were - weren't serious."

Where did anybody say that's great? And didn't David himself frame this whole issue as a fight between hope and cynism? Aparently, it's just that there are many more cynics than he thought, who believe that criticizing a politician for not moving fast enough on his promises is useless hair-splitting. That's not an unreasonable view, and Sirota shouldn't distort and ridicule this the way hze does. And David himself isn't even showing a congruent stance when demanding a reform of NAFTA and the ablishment of trade sanctions against Cuba in the very same story. I guess he will have good arguments why both points are not really contradictional, but it's still quite confusing.

On the other hand, the discussion about torture shows that ethical values prevail over cynism when it comes to issues where people don't accept compromises. Obama shouldn't stand in the way of prosecuting torturers, period. And the stance of his administration, firstly to rule out the prosecution not only of the torturers thenselves, but also of their masters, and then to paddle back again, is disturbing. This is the much more serious issue regarding campaign promises now. I don't think trying to fight several battles at the same time is helpful, so the examples David uses here to make his point only result in distrating the discussion. Let's stay focussed on one urgent issue at a time, pls!


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