Obama Is Wrong, Andrew Sullivan Is Right

by: Paul Rosenberg

Tue Apr 21, 2009 at 15:55


A Man for All Seasons:

William Roper: So, now you give the Devil the benefit of law!
Sir Thomas More: Yes! What would you do? Cut a great road through the law to get after the Devil?
William Roper: Yes, I'd cut down every law in England to do that!
Sir Thomas More: Oh? And when the last law was down, and the Devil turned 'round on you, where would you hide, Roper, the laws all being flat? This country is planted thick with laws, from coast to coast, Man's laws, not God's! And if you cut them down, and you're just the man to do it, do you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then? Yes, I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!

Embedding a clip of the scene that interchange comes from, Sullivan writes ("Obama, Bush And The Rule Of Law"):

This is the deepest and darkest aspect of the impact of Bush-Cheney's torture program on the constitution and the future. Leave aside for a moment the policy debate over torture in the abstract. From the very beginning, that has been largely moot. Why? Because even if you believe that the president has the duty to torture terror suspects, under the constitution, he has no legal right to do so without Congress' passage of legislation repealing the laws and treaties governing such torture. The use of torture is part of the laws of war and only Congress has the constitutional authority
    To declare war, grant letters of marque and reprisal, and make rules concerning captures on land and water

It can't really be clearer than that.

On the flip: Sullivan goes on to spell why it can't be clearer, and then gets into the illegality of failing to investigate and prosecute torture--first by Bush, and now by Obama.  After that, I cite Bruce Fein as another example of a high-profile conservative who gets it--my choice for a special prosecutor on torture, precisely because he is a high-profile conservative.  And I try to elucidate the vast difference between a healthy liberal-conservative dialogue, in the context of history, and the diseased shadow-play that Obama is furthering, in which both sides undermine everything good America is supposed to stand for.

Paul Rosenberg :: Obama Is Wrong, Andrew Sullivan Is Right
Picking up where the Sullivan quote left off (with slight overlap):

It can't really be clearer than that.  And the reason, of course, is the colonists' memory of the power of the monarch, especially with respect to torturing and mistreating prisoners of war. Now no legal authority in  human history would judge the waterboarding of a prisoner 83 or 183 times in one month as anything but torture. If it were done to a US soldier, would Dick Cheney refuse to call it torture? Of course not, although it is telling that no reporter has ever asked him this obvious question directly.

And so it is simply an empirical fact that president Bush broke the law and violated his oath of office by ordering the torture of prisoners.

Sullivan goes on to cite the Feb 2007 Red Cross notification of Bush that his administration has engaged in torture--which triggers a legal requirement for investigation and prosecution.  Bush refused to do so--"another breach of the law"--and now Obama is breaking the law (including the Geneva Conventions) as well:

And so Obama's refusal to investigate war crimes is itself against the law. And so torture's cancerous route through the legal and constitutional system continues, contaminating the future as well as the past, rendering the US incapable of upholding Geneva against other nations, because it has violated Geneva itself, and giving to every tyrant on the planet a justification for the torture of prisoners.

In this scenario, America becomes a city on a hill, where the rule of law is optional and torture acceptable if parsed into legal memos that do not pass the most basic professional sniff-test.

America becomes a banana republic.

Conservative Bruce Fein is Right, Too

Sullivan is not the only conservative who understands the inredibly high stakes here. as counterspin notes in Quick Hits, Bruce Fein, a high-level Reagan DOJ official, makes a similar, though more empirically-oriented argument.  He gives a quick run-threough of how Obama has taken up the cause of defending Bush-era lawlessness:

Obama, however, promised non-prosecution of all CIA personnel complicit in torture who relied on the flawed OLC advice. He further pledged to defend them from criminal investigations initiated by foreign jurisdictions and to indemnify them if they are held liable in damages for constitutional or statutory wrongdoing. Obama is similarly defending former OLC Deputy Assistant Attorney General John Yoo against a torture suit initiated by Jose Padilla, convicted of terrorism in 2007 after the government dropped charges that as an "enemy combatant" he plotted to set off a "dirty bomb." The Yoo memoranda on torture have also been renounced and discredited. Obama also promised to follow the Bush-Cheney duumvirate in claiming secrecy for alleged national-security secrets because "the world is dangerous." Indeed, he did not voluntarily initiate release of the four OLC memoranda, but responded to a Freedom of Information Act suit. And President Obama has echoed the Bush-Cheney state secrets arguments to block lawsuits challenging the legality of spying on Americans without warrants in contravention of the Fourth Amendment or federal law, or seeking damages for torture.

He then points to the utterly Bushian, fact-free nature of Obama's "argument":

Moreover, Obama has been unable to recite a single instance where transparency proved more dangerous to the liberties of the American people than has secrecy, the birthplace of COINTELPRO, Shamrock, Minaret, Abu Ghraib, and torture of 14 "High Value al Qaeda" detainees in secret prisons abroad (according to the International Committee of the Red Cross).

Fein next notes the NYT story on further NSA lawbreaking--even after previous restrictions were relaxed, and goes on to say, regarding Obama's abandonment of his Constitutional duty, and the adoption of an imperialist mindset, rather than a republican one:

The evidence is now undeniable. President Barack Obama is flouting his unflagging constitutional obligation enshrined in Article II, Section 3 to "take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed." He is also reneging on his signature campaign promise to restore the rule of law, transparency, and accountability to the White House. He is displaying the psychology of an arrogant empire as opposed to a modest republic in continuing and escalating the Bush-Cheney duumvirate's global and perpetual war against international terrorism heedless of foreign sovereignties or the lives of civilians.

And goes on to take note of Obama's political cowardice:

Even more disappointing, Obama has proven a political coward dangerous to the republic. Before April 16, he had decided against any criminal investigation of the Bush-Cheney duumvirate or their inner circles for their boasted complicity in torture, i.e., waterboarding, which Attorney General Eric Holder has declared is torture. He has similarly declined investigations of extraordinary renditions that have occasioned, among other things, the indictments and in absentia trials of 26 CIA operatives in Milan, Italy, for the kidnapping and torture of Egyptian cleric Abu Omar.

Fein also draws attention to the foolish fruits of Obama's mindless "looking forward, not backward" rhetoric:

In sweeping the Bush-Cheney lawlessness under the rug, Obama has set a precedent of whitewashing White House lawlessness in the name of national security that will lie around like a loaded weapon ready for resurrection by any commander in chief eager to appear "tough on terrorism" and to exploit popular fear. Obama urges that the crimes were justified because the duumvirate acted to protect the nation from international terrorism. But Congress did not create a national-security defense to torture or commit FISA felonies.

As a conservative, it's only natural that Fein is far too forgiving of power's perogatives in some ways, but he insists on drawing the line at letting criminality go unacknowledged, which at this late date has become dividing line between preserving and undermining the rule of law (expanding the rule of law is clearly off the table here in the US, for the time being, at least).  Thus he lays out the minimal conditions Obama should have met to preserve his charade:

President Obama should have invoked his pardon power if he believed circumstances justified the crimes by Bush and Cheney and the CIA's interrogators. A pardon or lesser clemency properly exposes the president to political accountability, as Bush discovered with Cheney's Chief of Staff Scooter Libby and President Ford with former President Nixon. More significant, a pardon does not set a precedent making lawful what was unlawful. It acknowledges the criminality of the underlying activity, and acceptance of the pardon is an admission of guilt by the recipient.

The Value of Conservatism

What we can see in Fein and Sullivan is the crucial difference between conservatism and movement conservatism. It's not that I approve of the former.  I believe it is a seriously flawed political philosophy that holds back human progress.  But at least it stands open to accepting--and even, in crucial ways, defending--the human progress of the past.  Movement conservatism, OTOH, is wholly destructive of human progress, and even, potentially, the human race itself.  What we see in both Sullivan and Fein's arguments is clear, full-throated defense of established principles of the rule of law.

Of course such principles were only established in the first place by the struggles of liberals and progressives, but this is quite simply the way of the world: Ideas start off as being crazy, proceed to the status of being radical, then over time, they become progressive, then liberal, then mainstream, then commonplace, and a generation or more later, finally, they become conservative.

This is why we have conservatives (as opposed to movement conservatives) embracing 16th- and 17th-century liberal rights to freedom of conscience and religion, 18th-century liberal rights to freedom of the press, 19th-century liberal rights to freedom from slavery, and 20th-century rights for women's suffrage.  IN this respect, conservatives have functioned as a sort of political backstop insurance that the progress of the past shall not be forefeitted.  The value of this can easily be taken for granted--until we are confronted with the likes of Barack Obama, heir to a generation and more of "New Democrat" "thinking" that has absolutely zero moral core.

If Obama were arguing for the principle of a restoring a civil dialogue between progressives and legitimate conservatism, as represented, in this instance, at least, by Fein and Sullivan, then I would have no objection to it, although I might not think it should be our prime consideration.  Still, I would have no objection to it in principle.  Indeed, I would regard it as a good thing, if not given precedent over other important agenda items, such as saving the planet from global warming.  Under my broad endorsement of a walk-and-chew-gum approach to politics, it should not be hard to do both things at once, and so I could fully support such a trans-ideologically reaching out.

But as Fein and Sullivan's fundamental criticism of Obama makes clear, this is not what Obama is up to at all.  In fact, he's up to the exact opposite: affirming support for, and even agreement with the lawless core of movement conservatism.  Oh, yes, he will cut back on the extremes, at least he says so, and at least for now.  But he will do so only to reaffirm the deepest foundations of lawlessness and arbitrary rule.  He is, in short, joining with Bush/Cheney is seeking to establish a reactionary, pre-1215, pre Magna Charta "post-partisan concensus" that is fundamentally opposed to nearly eight centuries of Anglo-American law.

Is there anything about this that is not unspeakably evil?


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Wonderful quote (4.00 / 6)
from Thomas More.

Is the rule of law only for the sanctity of bonus contracts?  


No, Not Really (4.00 / 5)
Is the rule of law only for the sanctity of bonus contracts?  

As Glenn Greenwald has noted on more than one occassion, it's still good for imprisoning about 1/4 of the entire prison population on Earth.

So, there's that.

Got's to keep the death chambers working, whether the prisoners are guilty or not, don'tcha know!


"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Is there anything...? (4.00 / 9)
Nothing whatsoever. Nothing at all. The only good news here is that there really is no place for Obama to hide. Eventually he'll have to make the implicit explicit, and admit that he's treating justice itself as an enemy of the state.

I suppose you could argue that he asked for it. Even so, my lack of pity for him isn't occasioned by his ambition, but for wasting an opportunity which is given to few. I honestly believe that Obama is among the best and brightest that the country has produced in this generation, which is all the more reason not to look the other way as he trades his patrimony for a mess of pottage.


this is the right angle (4.00 / 5)
It appears this line of criticism has been very effective, that Presidents and Chiefs of Staffs don't make judgments on prosecutions.  Obama and Rahm ironically moved the situation into one where it is clear-cut that their promises of immunity are wrong.  I see Isikoff is pointing out all prosecutions "look backwards" on CNN right now.



New Jersey politics at Blue Jersey.


Yes, Well, (4.00 / 2)
I seriously had thought of writing a diary, "Obama: Abolish the DOJ ('Looking Backwards Is Just WRONG!')"

But the deeper points this diary allowed me to get to tipped me in a different direction.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Was Obama playing us all along? (0.00 / 0)
Were he and Holder intending all along to play good cop bad cop?  In retrospect I think it's a great possibility given that he and his team's strategies have hit home year after year.

Obama may be transforming the role of President into one more like that of a referee, rather than a one headed decider. But still letting his team rip away at his op-onent.

I kind of like that.
And it just may be the ticket to help the Left get precisely the justice they seek.  

Nationalism is not the same thing as terrorism, and an adversary is not the same thing as an enemy.


[ Parent ]
Except (4.00 / 4)
the head decider just decided the United States would not prosecute war crimes (a  crime in and of itself, and not a decision he is legally authorized to make on our behalf) and then decided to maybe think about it.

That's still a pretty capricious and autocratic form of government, not democratic at all.

But if it makes you feel better to believe you are being manipulated for your own good by a benevolent man-god, well, whatever.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
This reminds me of a movie quote. Was it in JFK? (4.00 / 1)
Reciting from memory:
"Now, some ask: What's to be gained from prosecuting the murderer when the victim is already dead? Why, only truth and justice!"

[ Parent ]
Talk About "A Man for All Season" (4.00 / 2)
     Sullivan has had more changes on positions than almost any important pulic intellectual.  I am almost sure he has supported every war since he arrived in the country.
He turned The New Republican into Republican and DLC favorite.  I am glad that there readership is down.  A principled conservative?  Maybe old Andrew is right now on machinations regarding torture and Obama's inherent corruptible soul?  Though, I will have to look at Andrew'entire remarks on the issue.  That said, I would not trust Andrew as far I can throw him.  He loves the spotlight.

      Bruce Fein, where was he when his Almight Reagan was acting clueless during the Iran Contra Affairs?  A definite impeachable offense, but nowhere to be found! Sure, he has found The Genius of Impeachment and now what's to use it everywhere! Please. . . how Andrew is still a "conservative" and a Reagan/Thatcher Republican does not square with any one his latest writings.  Talk about inconsistent!? Give me a break!  


Look, I Never Said They Weren't Conservatives (4.00 / 3)
And I certainly haven't forgiven Sullivan's past, nor have I agreed with Fein's positions much more recently than Reagan.

But neither one of them is simply a creature of convenience, and that clearly sets them apart from 99% of the other conservatives out there in the public limelight.

OTOH, I had wanted to write a diary about Russ Douhat last weekend, as his apologetics re the Tea Parties once again revealed his total toolhood.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I Have Sorry But I Have To Disagree Regarding Sullivan (4.00 / 1)
     Actually, if you have followed Sullivan over the last three years, you will see the many contradictions of his beliefs and his love of limelight.  Rarely does he ever disagree with his comrade, Mr. Hitchens.  Anyway, that said, I think his departure from mainstream conservatives--for the most part--has been a pretty significant voice for people moving to the middle and left. Yet, I see his polemicist nature as one more of opportunism, too often.  

[ Parent ]
Why does in matter? (4.00 / 2)
Why focus on Sullivan's (or Fein's) previous arguments, instead of the one that Paul highlights and comments on?  Seems to me, on this extremely important topic, it's a distraction to focus on the individuals instead of what they are saying. Whether you are correct or not about their motives, how does that help us assess what they said?  



Politics is the art of the possible, but that means you have to think about changing what is possible, not that you have to accept it in perpetuity.


[ Parent ]
Because, I Don't Trust The Political Nature (0.00 / 0)
of the subject being debated from the right.  This is a contentious political issue--with strong interests involved--and the only thing I could see is try to tarnish Obama.  And right, there is not enough reporting to make the claims being made by Sullivan.  Even the legalities are murky.  And God knows the politics of the matter is too contentious, at the moment.

If Congress--which I think is very likely--will push for an Independent Prosecutor and for the Department of Justice to uphold the laws.  While the country may be center-left and a majority of citizens wants investigations and prosecutions, Washington D.C. is a different animal.  Does Sullivan want to pull a Christopher Hitchens? Get wholly righteous on an issue, and cause major problems for this adminstration that in the end are fraught with a lot of political hit-jobs.  I just read The Hunting of A President and gives me cause.  


[ Parent ]
There is nothing murky (4.00 / 3)
about the law on this.  

Nothing.

Politics is the art of the possible, but that means you have to think about changing what is possible, not that you have to accept it in perpetuity.


[ Parent ]
Sorry, You're Just Plain Wrong (4.00 / 4)
(1) There's nothing the least bit murky about the law, and it's primarily been liberal civil libertarians calling for the law to be followed.

(2) Sullivan and Fein are exceptional figures on the right, and they were calling for the law to be followed before Obama was elected.  Bill Moyers even had Fein on his show last summer.

(3) Whitewater was a manufactured scandal, there was no "there" there, but the NY Times and WaPo were willing tools of the rightwing noise machine.  (Fools For Scandal, Gene Lyon's earlier book, is more tightly focused on the media's role.) This was the opposite: the Beltway media did its level best to keep this story hidden for the benefit of the Bush Administration.  It's Obama who is now playing a similar role of obstructing the truth getting out--though he seems to have backed off a bit today.  However, the movement conservatives are all about keeping this hidden--the exact opposite of Fein and Sullivan.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Ok, I Agree With The Arguments and Facts You Lay Out, Though (0.00 / 0)
1.  While I have been reading Jonathan Turley, John Dean, Greenwald, and others I still read different problems in regards to the law: 1. Bush and Co. put in different provisions to make it harder for Obama to investigate as President.  (Sorry, a bit murky.)  Anyway, as I said, a few days ago in comments, I think Congress will push Holder for a special prosecutor.

2.  I bought The Genius of Impeachment when it first came out.  And, I think Bruce Fein has been a fierce advocate against consitutional abuses over the last 4-6 years.  
Andrew, I have been reading for years.  And while he has a sharp mind, I question his motives.  But who am I?

3.  And the Beltway media did its best to pump all the unfiltered noise machine of the right.  As David Brock has written about in memoir and other book.  Also, as Media Matters shows us everday of the crap that still goes on.

    Anyway, you are right. However, I don't that it's makes any political sense for Obama to push this in the public.  Paul, you know how it would be portrayed by MSM and the right's noise machine.  There are a lot of ex-CIA officers calling for reform.  I forget their group. Let's back them. But, I think Obama as the titular head of investigation, prosecution will stymie Democrats--let alone progressive Democrats from gaining seats.  One attack, and Obama "went on a withchunt--and Democrats are on weak on Security.  It can flip fast. While, the public is leaning more liberal, even if unaware, still can be flippant. Civil liberties need to be restored, torturers need to be investigated, but we need the help of our intelligence agencies.  The Sey Hersh's piece if true--about Cheney entreched cronies in high intelligence posts is disturbing. Sey has a pretty high batting average.

PS  Sorry for the long reply with concession, yet with some illogical musings.  Lastly, I would love to see the law followed and carried out. These people have burnt a hole in my soul.  Though, I worry that we handle this right.  I read too much angry and gottcha pieces on Obama and Democrats on this issue.  


[ Parent ]
Ross, not Russ, Douhat. Now that he's Bill Kristol's NYT replacement, (0.00 / 0)
we'll be hearing a lot more from him. Hold on to your work, as always.

[ Parent ]
Use of the Pardon power need not look bad. (0.00 / 0)
I've been arguing for years that someone should draw up a bill of particulars on all these turkeys and issue pardons for those specific crimes. Establishes the historical record while preserving the "no legal accountability" the powerful seem to demand. Formal pardons also increase the likelihood of another country exercising universal jurisdiction.


Excellent, thoughtful analasis! (4.00 / 1)
the crucial difference between conservatism and movement conservatism:

"Movement conservatism, OTOH, is wholly destructive of human progress, and even, potentially, the human race itself."

"What we see in both Sullivan and Fein's arguments is clear, full-throated defense of established principles of the rule of law."

"...conservatives have functioned as a sort of political backstop insurance that the progress of the past shall not be forefeitted.  The value of this can easily be taken for granted--until we are confronted with the likes of Barack Obama, heir to a generation and more of "New Democrat" "thinking" that has absolutely zero moral core."

PERHAPS A BIT OVERLY HARSH, BUT NONETHELESS VERY INSIGHTFUL!


I Hope You're Right (0.00 / 0)
I'd love to be pleasantly surprised.  Hasn't happened much as of yet.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Crucial difference (4.00 / 2)
Paul is right to split traditional conservatives from movement conservatives. Traditional conservatives DO have a sense of grounding in 19th century enlightenment thinking. Movement conservatives are really about oligarchy because movement conservative thinking is in essence rule by the privileged. The analogy apples to the Democratic party as well where movement conservatism (in the form of enforcing the orthodoxy of Wall St., the MI complex, and other institutions) is more influential in the party than traditional conservative principles of the rule of law.  

Save Our Schools! March & National Call to Action, July 28-31, 2011 in Washington, DC: http://www.saveourschoolsmarch...

[ Parent ]
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