The Phony Big Government Debate

by: Chris Bowers

Mon Apr 27, 2009 at 14:20


Rasmussen has a new poll out this morning showing that support for a "free market" economy is up to 77%, while support for a "government managed" economy is down to only 11%. Such a poll is a good example of the phoniness of the debate over the role of government in our economy. Instead of offering a perspective on the percentage of the economy that the government currently manages, and asking people if they would prefer a higher or lower percentage of management, the poll posits there is a switch governments decide to flip to make an economy either entirely "free market" or "government managed."

Of course, there is no such switch. Every economy is a mixed economy where both markets and the government manage a certain percentage of the overall whole. The question is where the balance should be. 80-20? 50-50? Something else?

A true ideological debate over the size of government would argue for a drastic shift away from current levels. However, no matter the rhetoric of Reagan, Clinton, Gingrich, both Bushes or Tom Delay, that simply is not an debate we have engaged much over the last 30 years. Apart from a brief flare-up over Social Security in 2005, there simply has not been a significant argument over the long-term size of government in either the United States of America, or other wealthy democracies, over the past thirty years. Our debate over the size of government, recently manifested in the "tea party" protests, is a phony, hollow ideological debate that, at best, is nibbling around the edges of a broad economic consensus.

To demonstrate this point, consider the following chart (PDF, pages 13-14), which measure the actual size of government management of the economy within what are now wealthy democracies over the past 140 years. It shows that the size of government reached a stasis point of roughly 40-50% around 1980, and hasn't changed much since that time:

More in the extended entry

Chris Bowers :: The Phony Big Government Debate

Government spending as a percentage of GDP, 17 current wealthy democracies, 1870-1960
Country 1870 1913 1920 1937 1960
Mean 10.7 12.7 18.7 22.8 27.9
Australia 18.3 16.5 19.3 14.8 21.1
Austria 10.5 17.0 14.7 20.6 35.7
Belgium --- 13.8 22.1 21.8 30.3
Canada --- --- 16.7 25.0 28.6
France 12.6 17.0 27.6 29.0 34.6
Germany 10.0 14.8 25.0 34.1 32.4
Italy 13.7 17.1 30.1 31.1 30.1
Ireland --- --- 18.8 25.5 28.0
Japan 8.8 8.3 14.8 25.4 17.5
Netherlands 9.1 9.0 13.5 19.0 33.7
New Zealand --- --- 24.6 25.3 26.9
Norway 5.9 9.3 16.0 11.8 29.9
Spain --- 11.0 14.6 18.0 27.6
Sweden 5.7 10.4 10.9 16.5 31.0
Switzerland 16.5 14.0 17.0 24.1 17.2
UK 9.4 12.7 26.2 30.0 32.2
USA 7.3 7.5 12.1 19.7 27.0

Government spending as a percentage of GDP, 17 current wealthy democracies, 1960-2007
Country 1960 1980 1990 1996 2007*
Mean 27.9 43.1 44.8 45.6 48.6
Australia 21.1 34.1 34.9 35.9 43.6
Austria 35.7 48.1 38.6 51.6 54.3
Belgium 30.3 57.8 54.3 52.9 56.0
Canada 28.6 38.8 46.0 44.7 48.2
France 34.6 46.1 49.8 55.0 61.1
Germany 32.4 47.9 45.1 49.1 48.8
Italy 30.1 42.1 53.4 52.7 55.3
Ireland 28.0 48.9 41.2 42.0 41.5
Japan 17.5 32.0 31.3 35.9 30.9
Netherlands 33.7 55.8 54.1 49.3 54.7
New Zealand 26.9 38.1 41.3 34.7 46.6
Norway 29.9 43.8 54.9 49.2 58.8
Spain 27.6 32.2 42.0 43.7 47.3
Sweden 31.0 60.1 59.1 64,2 58.1
Switzerland 17.2 32.8 33.5 39.4 37.8
UK 32.2 43.0 39.9 43.0 50.0
USA 27.0 31.4 32.8 32.4 35.5

* = Numbers for 2007 are derived from here, and are not as solid as the 1870-1996 figures.

This chart shows, broadly speaking, that after a long period of slow growth from 1870-1960, the percentage of the economy managed by the government in wealthy democracies dramatically increased from 1960-1980. From 1980 to 2007, the slow growth pattern returned. One reasonable conclusion from this is that, along with the defeat of fascism, the end of colonialism, the rise of universal suffrage, the extension of equal rights, and the end of Soviet communism, the great ideological debate over the proper size of government functionally ended in wealthy democracies about 20 or 30 years ago.

An actual, significant ideological debate over the size of government would include conservative parties advocating for along-term return to 1960 levels of government spending as a percentage of GDP, along with left-wing parties advocating for a long-term increase of at least 10% or more. However, there are simply no mainstream advocates to alter the current percentage of the economy managed by the government by even 10%. To put this in perspective, a 10% shift would mean a either $5 trillion, or a $2.1 trillion, federal budget instead of the current $3.55 trillion. No significant block of federally elected officials is advocating for budgets of those sizes. As I explain in the extended entry, right-wing Republicans and left-wing Democrats are about 5% apart from each other on how much the economy they believe should be managed by the government. That 5% is the reality behind the sham of our supposed great debate over the size of government.

In their real and proposed budgets, neither President George W. Bush, nor the Congressional Progressive Caucus, have advocated for anywhere close to a 10% shift in government management of the economy:

  1. President Bush submitted a budget of $2.4 trillion to an all-Republican Congress in for fiscal year 2004 (in 2004 dollars and GDP size, too). Further, that didn't even include the supplemental funding for Iraq and Afghanistan. The final budget that he submitted to an all-Republican Congress was $2.77, and also didn't include money for Iraq and Afghanistan. With the exception of Social Security, Republicans simply were never advocating to reduce the overall percentage of the economy managed by the government, much less reducing it by 10%.

  2. The Congressional Progressive Caucus is advocating for a budget that, according to their own documents, "is $469 billion over the President's budget." That is an increase of only 3.3% of GDP, $300 billion of which is listed as short-term stimulus. Their proposed increase in long-term programs is only 1.2% of GDP.
While we keep pretending that a great ideological debate is raging in America over the size of government, the truth is that the right-wing of the Republican Party and the left-wing of the Democratic Party are, in terms of their actual proposed spending, about 5% apart on the percentage of the economy they are advocating for government to manage. In the United States, government spending as a percentage of GDP has been about the same under Carter and Clinton as it was under Reagan and both Bushes. While it will increase a bit under President Obama, most of that increase will actually come from the recession shrinking the size of the GDP. Almost the entire $158 billion difference in discretionary spending between the 2009 and 2010 budgets comes from including Iraq and Afghanistan spending in the budget rather than as supplemental funding.

Over the past decade, the largest debates over the size of government this decade were, with one exception, pretty small bore:

  1. Defense spending, including both overseas wars, increased from 3.8% to 5.8% of GDP under Bush. That spending argument was only over 2.0% of the economy.

  2. President Obama's new health care investment, totaling $634 billion over ten years, will represent only about 0.4% of the national economy over those ten years. In percentage terms, that is five times smaller than the change Bush made to defense spending.

  3. The Wall Street bailout, in the form of the TARP / TALF and PIPP programs, did represent nearly 5% of GDP. However, it is a temporary increase in government spending, and not a long-term program that will be renewed annually.

  4. The public spending portions of the stimulus / jobs package represented roughly 3.5% of GDP. However, most of them are also temporary, and also spread out over multiple years.
The main arguments in the United States over the size of government have been either small-bore (a fluctuation of 2-3%), or temporary. The one exception was the 2005 push by Republicans to privatize Social Security, which would have pushed 5% (and growing) of the economy from the public sector to the private sector over the long-term. Of course, that push was quickly defeated, and sent Republicans into a slow tailspin from which they have yet to recover.

In their 2000 book, Public Spending In the Twentieth Century, Vito Tanzi and Ludgar Schuknecht predicted that government spending as a percentage of GDP would decline in the early decades of the 20th century. However, even at the end of the decade with the most pro-corporate rhetoric of all-time, they were still forced to conclude the following:

With some noteworthy exceptions, relatively few countries have so far accompanied their anti-government rhetoric with successful shifts in their policy regimes toward less state involvement and cuts in public expenditure. In part because of the tyranny of past commitments, and because of the power and resistance of groups with strong entitlements on public spending, on average, public expenditures levels have continued to rise, but the pace has definitely slowed down.

We now stand one decade distance from this book, and the pace still has not reversed itself. In fact, due to the global recession last year, the pace is actually starting to pick up again.

As much as we pretend otherwise, there is no great ideological debate in America over the percentage of the economy that should be managed by the government. Right-wing Republicans and left-wing Democrats are about 5% apart from each other in their proposed budgets. In the United States, and really most other wealth democracies, there just is no longer a great ideological debate on this topic. We are just nibbling around the edges, no matter how we are pretending otherwise. Honestly, we really seem to be entering Francis Fukuyama's "last man" territory.


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There is no switch... (4.00 / 1)
and there is no "free market." Never was, never will be.

The debate is specious, a distraction and a wedge, at best an occasion to repeat boiler-plate talking points...


Earmarks, etc (0.00 / 0)
Part of the phoniness of the debate is revealed by the type of spending that Republicans attack. Its always small bore.

For example, McCain attacked earmarks ad infintum, even though they aren't actually even additional spending. They are just specific allocation of money that has already been approved.

And, on the stimulus, Republicans kept attacking a few hundred million here and there in contraception funding, volcano monitoring, disease outbreaks, etc. Overall, the size of these programs was pretty small.

Attacking about $5 billion in spending for a government that spending $3.55 trillion isn't attacking "big government." It is totally just nibbling around the edges.


[ Parent ]
Class war (0.00 / 0)
That's what we're actually talking about here, Chris, once the ostrich fans are dropped, and the kabuki ends (h/t Digby.)

All this flapdoodle about the miniscule part of the budget which goes to entitlements obscures the fact that the principal argument between the Republicans and the Democrats hasn't ever been about what government spends, but about what government is for. In fact -- and this is the real elephant in the room -- the Democrats, for reasons principally having to do with insuring the party's economic competitiveness with their rivals, have lately come to agree with the Republicans more often than they disagree.

When Clinton announced the end of big government, I just scratched my head. Any country with a dozen nuclear powered aircraft carrier attack groups, thousands of nuclear weapons deployed on not one, but three major delivery systems, and military bases scattered from Guam to Diego Garcia, with troops quartered in countries as far apart as Japan and Kuwait, is deluding itself if it thinks it's small in any meaningful sense, even if it is contemplating cutting social security or medicare.

The government squanders its wealth largely on the business class, ensuring -- or so everyone seems to think -- American dominance of markets and unfettered American access to raw materials. That it does so inefficiently, largely through a hypertrophied military, bothers no one in either party. That the government runs enormous geopolitical risks to do so, and neglects every other aspect of national security, from education to infrastructure development and maintenance, seems never to occur to anyone in a position of responsibility in either party.

It may be true that the Democrats, given their ideological history, are more susceptible to the efforts of determined reformers. That's what we're counting on, of course, but we're still barely able to make our case in a national forum, and seemingly aeons away from actually controlling the terms of the debate.

Bill Clinton. Pardon me, but fuck him, and the corrupt horses he rode in on. If Obama goes the same route, I wonder if we'll even have the energy to get it up, let alone convince him to pay serious attention to our feeble advances. That's the real question, it seems to me.


[ Parent ]
How could this be? (4.00 / 3)
This entire post can be easily proven false by pointing out two facts that are simple common knowledge:

1) Ronald Reagan is a god.
2) Barak Obama is a socialist.


Oh yeah (0.00 / 0)
I forgot about that. :)

[ Parent ]
Also (4.00 / 4)
There's the little detail about how "government management" is essential in preserving free markets from anti-competetive monopoly domination.

A more dishonestly framed polling question would be hard to imagine.  

Oh, wait.... "Should George Bush be given the Medal of Ultimate Freedom?  Or the Ultimate Medal of Freedom?"

Repeat for Dick Cheney, Alberto Gonzales, Jay Bybee, John Yoo, Scooter Libby, David Addington, etc., etc., etc.

Not so hard after all.

Nevermind.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


Not just Rasmussen (4.00 / 3)
This level of dishonesty pervades our entire discussion of "big government." Conservatives, when they control the entire government, go ahead and propose public spending equal to 36% of GDP, and then decry "socialism," as though someone else is doing the spending.

And Democrats aren't much better. We claim that we aren't for "big government" either.

Our national inability to properly frame the argument is astounding. It isn't really a surprise that most people are unaware of the small differences in total proposed spending that the two major parties are debating. We have reached a near national consensus, and we don't even know it.


[ Parent ]
<a href="http://melatanon.com/Colon-Cleanse/index.html ">colon cleanse</a> (0.00 / 1)
Thanks for this article it gives a decisive fact about how "government administration" acts a dominant rule in preserving free market from anti-competitive monopoly control

Hello Admins! Why wasn't that spammer deleted days ago??? (0.00 / 0)
Not the first time she tries to post her spam links here!

[ Parent ]
We are comparing apples to oranges (0.00 / 0)
The many or all of the other countries include all medical spending in their government expenditures.  We do not.

For a fair comparison, we should add all private medical spending to our government expenditures.

Bookwormhole.net  -- links to  over 10,000 published book reviews



The ideological debate is more over the type of spending than the spending itself (4.00 / 5)
Republicans always want more military spending, and Democrats (supposedly) want more social spending.  They both are happy with various forms of corporate giveaways.  

The part of the social security debate that I loved by the way, is that it would have, in the short term, been a massive drain on the government's resources, as they never really proposed a revenue stream to replace all of the money that would have gone to the private savings account instead of FICA, which, of course, would have been necessary to pay all of the social security benefits going out.


Precisely (4.00 / 1)
That is it precisely. Further, the type of spending can make a big difference in income equality. We have a relatively high level of inequality among the countries listed above, largely because we have such high levels of defense spending.

[ Parent ]
Idiots design questionaires as well as cars. (0.00 / 0)


The figures are Hilarious ! (0.00 / 0)
Don't know if this affects your argument concerning the US or not....... but you're figures for european countries public spending as a % of GDP are WAY out.

I followed the link chain, and it seems these are CIA world factbook figures, and they are pretty freaking bad.

The UK figure (I'm a brit) is ludicrous. 50% ? in 2007 ? Pre-crunch and bailout ? No chance. France 61.1% ? Are you kidding me ?

It seriously makes me doubt the rest of the numbers..... and as a guy with an interest in stats and economics, most of the EU nations %'s look way too high.

I can get reliable taxation as % of GDP stats from the OECD at (http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/48/27/41498733.pdf)

This was at 36.6% in the UK in 2007...(OECD Figures).. that would mean deficits running at 13.4% of GDP a year, over decades ! Someone would have noticed ! Wouldn't it have been news in the US if the US ran a 15% of GDP defecit in 2007 ? If we were running debts that high for a long time why is it still only 60% of GDP (total) today, post bailout and crunch.

Netherlands tax as % of GDP is 38%. France, 43.6%. Germany 36.2% and these are solid economic figures from the OECD. The defecits that would have needed to be run are colossal in almost every countries case.

I would certainly say these CIA figures need a thorough check, if they are entirely valid in the cases of the EU countries I would be astounded...... and quite possibly the story should be how "We've discovered EU nations running ridiculously high defecits for years now with no-one noticing !".

Hell, according to the OECD and your figures combined....... The German Govt. taxed 36.2% of GDP, but spent 48.8% of GDP at in a year they ran a budget surplus !!

Something is wrong here, and with no provenance for your figures..... and the OECD on the other side.... I really you suggest you check your figures very closely as to how they are calculated. I don't know whats going on over at the CIA world factbook.

For the UK........ a correct figure would be between 40% and 42% depending on how big our deficit was that year. 50% is hilariously out.

It may be, once refactored with good data, everyone just drops a notch and the US point is still entirely valid. But someone ought to check.

Yours,

TGP


[ Parent ]
the 2007 numbers might well be off (0.00 / 0)
The problem is that this sort of data is not easy to find.

That was the best I could do for finding 2007 info. Seriously, if you have better numbers, I would be happy to replace them.


[ Parent ]
I'd do some stats for you but it's 01:22 over here ! (0.00 / 0)
Well,

I did "the google" before I wrote the comment (hoping to find the "right" figures) and found nothing better as a pre-composed unit of stats. It seems no-one does this simple sum for some reason, which in itself rings alarm bells (why not ? IS it more complicated than this ?)

But this guys stats are bad, either his sums, the CIA figures, or some combination of the two.

However, if you read his blog post all he did was go to the CIA site and divide their reported GDP by their reported Govt. Expenditure. If you want that measure, try some reliable stats like the OECD site, or The Economist, or anywhere more solid than the CIA stuff (this isn't the first time they have been awful) and re-do his sums. I bet you get a much more realistic result.

Maybe the US point holds up for 2007, maybe not..... my bet is it would still be reasonable, and most of the argument relies on older data anyway.

Or, alternatively, there is some other factor here we are not spotting, an "unknown unknown".

In that case, Perhaps a better measure would be Total Tax + Defecit as a % of GDP ....... all govt. income. That might also give a much more realistic figure, maybe that calculation is more valid for a technical statistical or economic reason. Again a simple sum could be done, if it agrees with the above totals then a fulsome apology should come from me, but I doubt it.

These figures are bad for some reason. I don't know if they are systemattically bad, or proportionally bad on some countries or others. I'm just saying be wary of these particular numbers.

Just some simple sums..... from more reliable sources than the CIA world factbook...... should provide much better data and it would be every bit as "valid" as the source you are using (which appears to be someone's private, and wildly inaccurate, mash-up).

But, REALLY, if the UK spent at 50% in 2007...... someone really ought to have told us Brits about it !

And hell, even by just pure "Hang On, is this really right ?" second guessing...... nearly 2/3rds of ALL eceonomic production in france by the government in 2007 ? Something is wrong with any stat that tells you that. And, what will it be in 2009 with bailouts and whatnot ? 80% ? essentially 4 out of 5 people employed by the state ?

Those figures are ridiculously high. So high it jumped out that some serious mistake has been made somewhere. When I checked it against the "tax as % of GDP totals" as a rough and ready comparison to check I wasn't going insane...... they were obviously wrong by large margins, taking into account reasonable defecits (5% say)they are still out by 5-12% at least in the countries I compared on (a half-dozen EU countries). You'd be better placed to tell me if the US estimate is wrong, but Eu countries wern't running defecits over 5%, the EU limit which only a few breached in 2007 is 3%.

The figures seem to be adding 5-12% over that.

Hell, ignore me. Just don't say you wern't warned. I'd think twice about using that particular link again without having a good old check first or at least doing the sums for one or two countries from a better source...... if they come up way out, you know the whole set is highly suspect.

TGP


[ Parent ]
What's spent, who pays (4.00 / 1)
The two parties mostly agree about the total size of the spending.  Bigger disagreements fall into two categories, what items receive the spending and who pays for it.

Go back 50 years and businesses paid 27% of federal taxes.  Today it is about 14%.  The top indidvidual tax rates plummeted from over 90% down to IIRC around 37%.  Meanwhile payroll taxes have risen.  The result is that taxes have been shited from corporations to people, from the very rich to the middle class and poor.  Among the wealthy, taxes on self-employed (such as doctors) have risen somewhat more than among those employed by corporations due to payroll taxes (but the Social Security cap severely limits this). Republican deficits have shifted taxes from the present to the future.

Republicans favor spending on the military and on corporations in one form or another.  Democrats favor (somewhat) spending on individuals, health care, and education.  Both sides seem to favor spending on the police and prisons.  Republicans favor spending huge sums of federal money through private contractors and constantly tout the rfficiency of the private sector (Katrina, cough, cough; Blackwater, cough, cough).  Federallly paid medical insurance through private companies to dismantle Medicare is a quintessential Republican stealth program.  So are mercenaries including the rent-a-thugs in the Middle East.  So is highway construction and othjer improvements meant to coddle large corporations.

IMO, the Republicans' ideas are inefficient except at ripping off tax payers.

Republican ideas can infilitrate Democratic programs.  As Rep. Gary Peters said today, the reason for the auto bailout was to save jobs not to save GM.  Cutting 21,000 blue collar jobs and 250,000 car dealers sounds double plus ungood.  Basing the strategy on curreent and short term demand is lunacy when that demand is the lowest of the last decades by a huge margin (chopping from 16 million base to 13 million is OK but 10?).


real debate (0.00 / 0)
If we were able to get beyond the phony rhetoric to a real debate, I would propose from these numbers that the overall level of gevernment spending should be reduced, since earning have stagnated ever since govt spending started escalating.

In part because of the tyranny of past commitments, and because of the power and resistance of groups with strong entitlements on public spending, on average, public expenditures levels have continued to rise...

This quote highlights the unhealthy stranglehold that the public spending "special interest" holds on our process.

I believe that the main source of opposition that is fueling the obstruction of progress in this country is a lack of trust in government, mainly due to this wasteful spending trend. If we populist progressives could ever embrace an approach that would roll back wasteful public spending in a healthy, constructive way, we could overcome this opposition to make some real progress.


Wasteful spending? (4.00 / 1)
Waste is a Republican frame that obscures poorly directed, emotionally driven, Republican spending.

Conservatives often label things as "wasteful" that are clearly not.  Susan Collins personally axed $900 million for pandemic flu prevention (the previous allotment lasted for three years) because she considered it "wasteful."  Now, Ms. Nerdy Glasses is being publicly labelled the micro-managing fool that she is.  Otoh, billions for prisons for non-violent drug offenders and spending half the world's total military budget are OK.  Privatizing FEMA was briefly OK.  Spending three times per head on rent-a-thigs from Blackwater is OK and we use them to guard embassies thanks to Condi Rice.  All that is not only waste, it is huge waste. Personally, I think the US Marines are the finest troops in the world and Condi's Blackwater thugs are expensive scum of the earth that create problems for the real soldiers to clean up.

Heck, privatizing Medicare by cherry picking the healthy recipients is a huge waste.  Not allowing the Feds to negotiate Medicare prescription drug costs is a waste.

All of these are due to "anti-waste" Republican initiatives.

Btw, if earmarks need to singled out, start on the military.  That was where Duke Cunningham did his damage.


[ Parent ]
missed my point (0.00 / 0)
I agree about the harm of republican "anti-waste" proposals, but that does not in any way rule out actual wasteful spending, and as I said, if we could take the lead on cutting in a responsible way, it would not only be better directed, but would rally a huge segment of the voting population who understand that there IS waste, despite the fact that Rep's point to phony exmaples of it.

[ Parent ]
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