No, Obama, Conservatives Are NOT Just Liberals With A Different Set Of Ideas

by: Paul Rosenberg

Sat May 02, 2009 at 11:00


I don't know when I first thought it, but as soon as I did, it became deeply etched in mind: "Obama thinks that conservatives are just liberals with a different set of ideas."  For me, this captured one of his fundamental misapprehensions-though one that is surely broadly shared among establishment liberals, neo-liberals and the like.  This is such a typically narrowminded thing for a liberal to think-all the while thinking he's being broadminded--quite unlike the DFHs such as you and me.

But as a whole liberals and conservatives don't just differ in their ideas-as Obama himself well knows in a different compartment of his brain.  They differ in attitudes, in sensibilities, in ways of thinking about ideas, as well as in larger life purposes.  The origins of modern conservatism lie in the European landed aristocracy, descended from a predatory warrior class.  Although tens of millions of self-identified conservatives today are culturally, historically, and/or genetically far removed from those origins, there is nonetheless a continuity in the kinds of life activities that such a culture breeds.

Similarly, the origins of modern liberalism lie in the European urban middle class-the burghers, or bourgeoisie, who inhabited a very different life-world, with some very different kinds of activity, much of which centers around the finding of facts, and all manner of intellectual pursuits that flow from or depend on factual knowledge. This includes all manner of occupations dating back centuries, even millennia-from artisans to shopkeepers, traders, lawyers, bankers, doctors and teachers-as well as occupations that scarcely existed as such more than two to five generations ago, such as scientists, technicians, engineers, etc.

From the conservative aristocracy's point of view, all such occupations are inherently servile: the aristocracy rules, it exists to rule, and all the factually-oriented occupations exist solely to serve the ruling aristocracy.  

Paul Rosenberg :: No, Obama, Conservatives Are NOT Just Liberals With A Different Set Of Ideas
Such are the deep historical roots behind the famous "reality-based community" interchange related by Ron Suskind in his October 17, 2004 NY Times magazine article, "Without a Doubt".  The exchange is well worth quoting in its larger context, particularly given the newly-evident salience of the torture/Iraq War justification connection:

In the summer of 2002, after I had written an article in Esquire that the White House didn't like about Bush's former communications director, Karen Hughes, I had a meeting with a senior adviser to Bush. He expressed the White House's displeasure, and then he told me something that at the time I didn't fully comprehend -- but which I now believe gets to the very heart of the Bush presidency.

The aide said that guys like me were "in what we call the reality-based community," which he defined as people who "believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality." I nodded and murmured something about enlightenment principles and empiricism. He cut me off. "That's not the way the world really works anymore," he continued. "We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality -- judiciously, as you will -- we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors . . . and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do."

Who besides guys like me are part of the reality-based community? Many of the other elected officials in Washington, it would seem. A group of Democratic and Republican members of Congress were called in to discuss Iraq sometime before the October 2002 vote authorizing Bush to move forward. A Republican senator recently told Time Magazine that the president walked in and said: "Look, I want your vote. I'm not going to debate it with you." When one of the senators began to ask a question, Bush snapped, "Look, I'm not going to debate it with you."

Torture as an epistemic method, anyone?

Suskind continues:

The 9/11 commission did not directly address the question of whether Bush exerted influence over the intelligence community about the existence of weapons of mass destruction. That question will be investigated after the election, but if no tangible evidence of undue pressure is found, few officials or alumni of the administration whom I spoke to are likely to be surprised. "If you operate in a certain way -- by saying this is how I want to justify what I've already decided to do, and I don't care how you pull it off -- you guarantee that you'll get faulty, one-sided information," Paul O'Neill, who was asked to resign his post of treasury secretary in December 2002, said when we had dinner a few weeks ago. "You don't have to issue an edict, or twist arms, or be overt."

O'Neill's reflection says it all:  Any hereditary aristocrat would know this intuitively-it's part of the very foundation of their being: You let the help know what you want, with a glance, or a look, or a shrug, and they bring it to you.  The best help doesn't even need you to hint.  In fact, the very best help-such as Karl Rove-will actually figure it out for you, so you don't even have to think of it yourself.  It's only the servile reality-based liberals who spell things out to one another in such detail that it's relatively easy to see when someone's pressuring someone else, directly manipulating intelligence, or simply outright lying.  And because the stupid narrow-minded liberals expect the conservative aristocrats to do things the very same way, the aristocrats can run circles around the reality-based liberals and the liberals won't even see what's happening.

Thus, while Suskind stepped back from that original interchange, and grasped a larger significance for it at that time, we can continue the thread of his reflection, both farther back in time to the pre-Enlightenment era, when conservative aristocracies were far more dominant, almost without question-as I have cursorily done above-and forward to the present moment, when we must ask ourselves about the various forms of blindness to what's going on, and the various costs involved in Obama's naïve disregard for the profound differences between liberal and conservative traditions.

There are, in fact, multiple levels in which the same basic logic plays out: The taken-for-granted reality-based liberal/Enlightenment approach is responded to by the conservative/feudal/aristocracy as either a threat (if it could conceivably damage them) or a sign of weakness (if it lets them off the hook).  The central reality-based concerns with procedural fairness, consistency, and avoidance of bias are literally invisible to the conservative mindset, except as some kind of joke-or trick.

Just yesterday, I came across a passage in Rick Perlstein's review of Eric Alterman's What Liberal Media? that makes pretty much the same point about the difference between liberalism and conservatism, from a different context (emphasis added):

Why do the conservative media fight politics as a life-and-death struggle whereas an avowed leftist like me can look at an old tradition like National Review's publishing liberals and conservatives side by side and think it's kind of nifty? That contrast, between conservative bunkerism and liberal openness, speaks to the very structural heart of the difference between conservatives and liberals. We Americans love to cite the "political spectrum" as the best way to classify ideologies. The metaphor is incorrect: it implies symmetry. But left and right today are not opposites. They are different species. It has to do with core principles.

To put it abstractly, the right always has in mind a prescriptive vision of its ideal future world - a normative vision. Unlike the left (at least since Karl Marx neglected to include an actual description of the "dictatorship of the proletariat" within the 2,500 pages of Das Kapital), conservatives have always known what the world would look like after their revolution: hearth, home, church, a businessman's republic. The dominant strain of the American left, on the other hand, certainly since the decline of the socialist left, fetishizes fairness, openness, and diversity. (Liberals have no problem with home, hearth, and church in themselves; they just see them as one viable life-style option among many.) If the stakes for liberals are fair procedures, the stakes for conservatives are last things: either humanity trends toward Grace, or it hurtles toward Armageddon.

This is why conservatives spy left-wing authoritarians everywhere. Seeing the world in terms of norms and presuming others do the same, they easily mistake a liberal tolerance for diverse options, even unconventional options, as an endorsement of the unconventional options. The presence of gay people on TV, for example, looks like a recommendation of homosexuality. That break in the natural order tempts chaos; chaos invites panic. Which is why conservatives fight by any means necessary to make the world look the way they insist it must look, while liberals are busy playing fair. And which is why it is now more accurate to say, as Eric Alterman, The Nation columnist and MSNBC.com blogger, does, that even as it "so perfectly contradicts conventional wisdom . . . the bias of the American media is more conservative than liberal." They fight the media war ruthlessly, and they are winning.

I actually disagree somewhat with Perlstein, as I think it's clear that there's more than fair procedures to liberalism.  Lakoff cites nurturance and empathy as central. Some basic floor of substantive equality is also involved, preventing anyone from falling into absolute destitution. Still, it's equally clear that fair procedures play a central role, and that conservatives consistently fail to understand this. Furthermore, "fairness, openness, and diversity" certainly qualify as norms in their own right, so the more one looks at the two traditions, the more one understands how the spectrum model makes sense to people.  Perlstein's central thrust is surely right, but in the world of workaday politics, the sharp differences get blurred, which is generally much to the benefit of conservatives, as their core intolerance-now so visibly on display with the tea-parties and such-really doesn't sell that well with the majority of Americans.  

As a further example of blurring, the vast majority of self-described conservatives embrace a wide range of rights that come directly out of the liberal tradition-even though their embrace often breaks down when it comes in conflict with their core beliefs.  The sharp differences are particularly visible with the activist core, especially the high-level architects, but among the great mass of everyday people, there's a great deal of such blurring, and that's where genuine cross-ideological progress can be made.  Unfortunately, Obama looks to the political leadership as the ones to negotiate with, and they are where the differences are particularly sharp.  So all the caveats I might have with Perlstein's description go by the boards, when it comes to how Obama mistakes the nature of the ideological terrain.

In fact, there are two levels to Obama's confusion about the possibility of high-level cross-ideological progress:

(1) Obama expects the general possibility of good-faith rational negotiations, producing consensus between liberals and conservatives "of good will."   He mistakes the reality of specific cooperative achievements-of the sort that even flaming liberals like Ted Kennedy and Paul Wellstone managed to achieve-for a viable paradigm applicable across the boards.

He fails to recognize that such specific achievements only appear as potentially paradigmatic on the liberal/procedural side of the ledger, and only there among those, such as himself, who are blind to the topography of the conservative value space. In reality, such cross-ideological agreements are not possible in general, but are only specifically possible because they do not intrude into the realm of core normative principles on the conservative side.

(2) Having failed to make these crucial distinctions, Obama consequently sets himself up for a second level of confusions.  This level consists of abandoning the liberal/procedural framework for achieving cross-ideological consensus, and accepting instead elements-from micro- to macro- of the conservative characterization of potential consensus (such as letting torturers off the hook as simple fairness.) This effort is doomed to failure, as I will describe in a followup post.

Before proceeding to that post, however, I must first discuss another sort of background material on liberal/conservative differences, that which comes from the study of values and cognitive processes as summarized by Robert Altemeyer in his online book, The Authoritarians.


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Generally agree (4.00 / 2)
Just wanted to point out one thing: while I think it is true that bi-partinsanship between conservatives and liberals is practically impossible, and should generally be met with a knee-jerk distrust; the same is not true for bi-partisanship between Democrats and Republicans.

After all, the number of true conservatives in America is actually fairly small.  The only way they can succeed is basically to propagandize enough moderates/liberals to give them 50%+1 of the vote.  This means that, among voters at least, there are a lot of Republicans that Obama (or anyone else) can reach out to.  But you're right that trying to negotiate with the leadership is a lost cause.  They're either completely conservative themselves or controlled by their movement conservative base.

One thing I've often wondered is, what exactly is the relationship between the conservative base and its elected officials?  One is tempted to say that the base influences their leaders, but their highly authoritarian tendencies makes this viewpoint slightly strange.  It's certainly a circular causation situation, but one player in that relationship has to be dominant, right?

Sorry if I'm not making sense.  I have to leave the computer now, so I can't edit it to make it clearer.


Party vs. Ideology (4.00 / 1)
You're right, of course.  I'm more narrowly focused here for the sake of this mini-series of diaries, and the simple fact is that even your ordinary conservatives are broadly supportive of the welfare state, so there's not much of a need to talk about Republicans in general.

But stepping back from the specific focus here, the larger point you make is certainly important.  Or at least it will become important if moderate Republicans ever manage to reassert themselves somehow.

One way they could do that, of course, would be if Obama were to target them, and motivate them to put pressure on their elected representatives.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
The whole thing is almost too weird for me (4.00 / 2)
The people whose lives most fascinated me as a teenager and college student included people like Leonardo da Vinci, Francis Bacon, Raphael, Marie Curie, Michelangelo, Van Gogh, Rene Descartes, Goethe, Newton, Alan Turing, Einstein, Paul Klee, James Agee, Wittgenstein, Kurt Godel, Hildegard of Bingen (yeah, you heard me), Bucky Fuller, James Joyce, Bach. . . and lots of others.

If you really want to really change the world for the better, that's how you do it.

Tell me somebody, please. Why would anyone want to be a CEO of a company or a politician when you can be an artist, or a scientist, or a poet, or a musician, or a mathematician, or all five, or anything or anybody as long as you try to love your life and try to see everyone around you as part of a living world in an infinitely expanding universe and maybe even try to act accordingly.


Who calls the shots (4.00 / 2)
Good to see Paul Klee on the list -- he's long been a favorite of mine. His Tagebücher was the first book I read all the way through in German. A wonderful soul.

As for why anyone...the first thing that springs to mind is Brave New World. I may be misrepresenting Huxley -- I read it a long time ago, when I was still a teenager -- but I seem to remember a passage in which one of the custodians was explaining the process by which destructive and self-aggrandizing personalities were transformed into protectors, defenders and entrepreneurs. Voilá, says our tour guide -- the testosterone-poisoned are no longer a danger to themselves or to us, and better yet, we've preserved their vigor and their desire for risk, which now acts to preserve and extend our civilization and its poets, artists, etc. rather than devouring them.

Being a kid, and used to being surrounded by authoritarians -- parents, teachers, random busybody adults -- who invariably took what seemed to me to be a prurient interest in my transgressions, this gave me a shudder. To me it sounded like pigeon breeding. I'd instinctively grasped the dark side of social engineering, whether by fiat or by nudge, and I've been uncomfortable with the whole business ever since.

I suppose early experiences like this are the reason why I eventually fetched up on the left. Someone has to decide where to pour the concrete, and whether to shoot or imprison the Hell's Angel threatening the old man down at the end of the block. Especially since it was and is never going to me, I've always been interested in the make-up of those who volunteer.

My conclusion is that people very unlike me are just as necessary as I am, maybe even moreso. If they need to be controlled in some way, let it be the community as a whole which does it, not an elite with delusions of grandur of its own.


[ Parent ]
I agree (4.00 / 2)
I started out in a Catholic school and ended up in a public high school. I was about 1-2 years younger and about 6" shorter than most of the other boys. It didn't help that I wore long hair and bell bottom pants to a public high school in Shreveport, Louisiana. I was on the receiving end of more fist sandwiches than I can remember. Normally, while face down on the concrete with knots welling up on the back of my head from a steady rain of knuckles, I would eventually yell "Uncle" or whatever else seemed appropriate at the time and the other guy would usually let me up. But once I was back on my feet, I couldn't seem to stop myself. I would put my hand out to the other guy in my best "no hard feelings" gesture and say, "It takes all kinds of people to make the world go round. I just wish it didn't take so many of some."

Not the best reconciliation speech when dealing with another male of the species who is experiencing a major testosterone imbalance.


[ Parent ]
Maybe I'm not the best person to ask... (0.00 / 0)
I agree--I wouldn't want to be a CEO, or a politician.  But I will try to answer your question anyway.

It's quite true: CEOs don't change the world.  But most people don't.  In the end, especially as they get older, I think most people end up losing their desire to change the world.  They want to support themselves and their kids, have a good life via material things.  In this culture, at least.

And you know what?  I don't think that's really a bad thing.  Everyone has their own goals in life.  Some people want to help others, and some people just want to make money.  And that's okay.  Different strokes for different folks, and all that.


[ Parent ]
Who put us all in the same room? Was it the Devil? (4.00 / 3)
It's the mix that's toxic, I think. While they're breaking kneecaps and pouring heavy metal sludge into the rivers, we're trying to build a civilization in between the bulldozers and goosesteppers that they've hired to do their bidding.

Left alone on their own planet, they'd all be dead in a generation. Here on ours, they seem intent on never resting until everyone experiences a little bit of hell.


My priest likes to say (0.00 / 0)
"I blame Jesus." Maybe that's why he's my priest.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
Per Obama's Thursday evening comments on abortion, (4.00 / 4)
"I think that those who are pro-choice make a mistake when they -- if they suggest -- and I don't want create straw men here, but I think there are some who suggest that this is simply an issue about women's freedom and that there's no other considerations...I think they are in a better position to make these decisions, ultimately, than members of Congress or... in consultation with their families, with their doctors, with their clergy."

He's perfectly willing to normalize right wing frames for the sake of his own political expediency. Why isn't women's freedom enough? Why are clergy made to enter the picture- it's a bone to anti-choicers that will never give an inch. It advocates on behalf of a group that will never advocate for him in return. For the mushy middle, it gives him the aura of compromise, but, in doing so, he injects paternalism into a debate that is rightfully about women's freedom.  


It's A Bit More Subtle (4.00 / 1)
He's definitely re-inforcing rightwing frames here, but the way he does it gets into the sort of issues I've promised for the diary after next in this series.  Since you brought it up, I'll try to see about incorporating something about this into the body of the diary.  If not, we'll still be in a better position to discuss it then, as we'll have some other examples to use as comparisons.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Paul this is one of your best (4.00 / 1)
and most insightful. Hope that someone at the White House reads it.

Steven D (0.00 / 0)
Steven D has a much more condensed version of the same thing.

[ Parent ]
Paul, this was a great insightful read.... (4.00 / 4)
it brought back many "coming of age" memories.

I was raised catholic, went to catholic school and my father was a cop.  And yet, my parents, for some reason, were not at all authoritarian.  As well, at the time, there was a strong group of catholic priests and nuns into civil disobedience, leading marches for civil rights, against the war.

I was always encouraged to think for myself.  Maybe because my mother's roots were in Sicily, and her family left to escape the authoritarian squeeze of government and church......
anyway, I became, early on, quite sure that liberal thought suited my views.

Anyway in my 20s I moved to an extremely conservative area of CO.  I had no idea about the politics as I was still in the "romanticizing the west, the cowboys" stage of life.
One of my friends ended up engaged to a wealthy man from the aristocratic families of the rich area of our city.  We were teachers, and at the time "on strike".  Her fiancee and his friends were constantly talking down to us about "unions" and how we were being led.  I was the debater, the arguer, unlike my friend and our other friends who were generally the more quiet, acquiescent women, typical of many women at the time (which of course made me quite unpopular with that crowd..).

But what really opened my eyes at the time about who these people were was a particular comment. Understand, I came from an immigrant family, where poverty was the norm yet hard work and making sure the children got an education was always the most important thing.  I never felt poor.  I knew others had more material stuff than I did, but my parents fed us well, and I don't remember a time when my parents (who both started working in factories by the age of 14) did not mention college as my future.  And so both of us, my sister and I were given the opportunity.

Anyway, at one of the many parties for my friends engagement, we were talking about some restaurant I had heard about...and I asked where it was.  And this guy said it was in the GU neighborhood....and they all started to laugh and snicker. I was not in on the joke.  But what I eventually learned was that GU meant "geographically unacceptable".  I did not still quite get it but eventually their hateful rhetoric made sense.  It was a poor neighborhood (albeit not nearly as poor in housing/visually as where I grew up). These were guys that laughed about, snickered at poverty.....at poor people and even the thought of rubbing shoulders with those poor people was a joke.

I was so offended and so angry.  These were guys who were like W, given free rides to prestigious colleges, flunked out or graduated after some money was donated to the schools...who were given business to run by their parents.  More than a few of them, my friend's husband being one, failed as his main goal in life was getting drunk at "the club (an exclusive country club).  These were guys who got into accidents of the DUI type but never lost their licenses or served jail time because their fathers had "influence."

And to this day, the few I occasionally see around town, still see themselves as better than those of us who have worked as teachers, or artists.....
these guys are the descendants of aristocracy.
My friend's husband's wealth is all gone, his father having lost it all in bad investments for year and his son's bitterness in palpable.  
While they have a decent home (because my friend spent 40 years teaching, keeping them above water while paying off his debts to the IRS and credit card companies), he still acts like he has been cheated......HIS wealth, HIS rightful place in society(money he never worked for) has been stolen in his mind.

He constantly makes smug remarks to me about my political activism on the left.....like somehow I am responsible for his loss of his "rightful place."  Of course I worked steadily since the age of 16, all through college and forty years as a teacher while in total he may have worked for ten years (two years here, two there in between stints in rehab after years of doing nothing but drinking and partying).

I know more than a few people like this....people who resent taxes on their "unearned income from inheritance."  
I don't get their self serving greed but your piece really makes sense.  These people see people like me (retired teacher from a family who worked in factories all their lives to get ahead) as having no right to a decent life....they see us as the "servant class" and resent even the notion of a "middle class."  

YOU ARE RIGHT....Obama is wrong in this.  Those people will never see him as having a right to anything, let alone leadership.
Anyway, thanks for the insightful diary.


Thanks For Sharing This (4.00 / 1)
It puts a lot of ordinary life experience meat on the bones of my historical overview, which in turn makes it much easier for lots of folks to relate to.

It does leave me wondering, however, about your friend spending all those decades with such a person.

Talk about "What does she see in him?"

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Believe me.... (4.00 / 1)

I have pondered these questions myself many times.....

It does leave me wondering, however, about your friend spending all those decades with such a person.

Talk about "What does she see in him?"

I never got it in the beginning and still don't......
she is truly loving, good human being and the one time I asked her (and it took a lot for me to do so because quite frankly I never wanted to lose her friendship)....she told me, ".....sometimes I don't know why....I do know I meant it when we said "in sickness or in health".  

Admittedly his drinking is less of a problem, but still.....
it's hard for me to get it.   But I respect her right to make that choice.


[ Parent ]
two (or more) kinds of Conservatives (0.00 / 0)
Jjc2008,

  Thank you for sharing your personal experience. It helps to illustrate the general ideas we are discussing.
  I started out fully agreeing with Rosenberg's recent posts, about inherent differences between Conservatives and Liberals.
  But that agreement, and my first posts on the topic, occurred when I was half-awake last night. Today I have second thoughts, which I think everyone here should read.
  It is true that SOME Conservatives have a completely authoritarian mindset, and some are cynical and power-hungry predators. SOME of those may be that way, due a family tradition or culture that comes from the old landed aristocracy.
  But, here is the problem. There are millions of Conservatives in America, and they have a range of traits. Some are further to the Right than others, and likewise each one will vary in the degree of authoritarian ideology, degree of cynicism, and so on.
  I think that it would be "naive and dangerous" to believe that we can negotiate in good faith with men like Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, and others that are hopelessly far to the right. The only way of dealing with those far-right fanatics is to remove them from power (vote the politicians out of office, and bring down the approval ratings and audience size of far-right media figures).
  But in the long run, we will be most successful if we can convert the Joe-the-Plumber types, and show them that our policies are best. And even if there are millions of Joe-the-Plumber types that have been brainwashed by the Right for so long that they will never see the truth, we can build a media machine to rival that of Limbaugh and Murdoch, so that the children of all the Joe-the-Plumber types will embrace Progressive politics.
  If each of us begins to belive that every Republican is actually a ruthless Fascist, we will lose the ability to reach out to, and recruit, Joe-the-Plumbers. And likewise, when we talk about Republicans and Conservatives, we will speak about them in terms of stereotypes.
  I will be a lifelong, die-hard opponent of Social Darwinsim and of theocracy. But even though I need to recognize that many of my opponents may be ruthless and cynical liars, I will constantly remind myself not to take a "guilty until proven innocent" view of my conservative opponents.

Luke 12:48 "to whom much is given, of him shall much be required". Would Jesus want progressive taxation, or regressive taxation?


[ Parent ]
Innocent, yes, (4.00 / 1)
but still different. Have you read Altemeyer's book?

It's available here, for free:

http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~a...

It is necessary to convert the Joe the Plumber" types but we will never succeed until we understand them.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
New Inisght (4.00 / 2)
This is why conservatives spy left-wing authoritarians everywhere. Seeing the world in terms of norms and presuming others do the same, they easily mistake a liberal tolerance for diverse options, even unconventional options, as an endorsement of the unconventional options.

I think this represents a new insight on your part. It helps explain, for example, why conservatives see gay marriage as a threat and goes beyond the standard view of male dominance in a hierarchical traditional family.

It also helps explain the degree to which dogmatists (especially religious ones) will go to suppress contrary ideas. I've always viewed this as them seeing it as a threat to their view by offering other framings and thus leading to the possibility of defection. This would be yet another example of the power framing, but if we interpret it as a fear instead things take on a whole new light.

It seems clear from recent history that conservatives are much more fearful than others and that is believed to be the motivation for them adhering to the strong father model (Daddy will protect me). But even without the protective aspect (are gays going to come into their homes and perform forced marriages?) the desire to eliminate the source of their anxiety justifies to them their intolerant actions.

As for the practical politics of the moment, it is not at all clear to me what sort of mindset Obama has. I think he has a great deal of empathy for the weak, but his whole life has been moving upward within the conventional meritocracy and power structure. He admires order and logic, hence his choice of a specialty which is highly formalist and his affiliation with U Chicago. He has also surrounded himself with highly conventional, though bright, advisers. Not a radical in the bunch.

The only hope is that he realizes that he will have to take a pragmatic approach if he wants to achieve his aims and follow the LBJ model of good old fashioned arm twisting. Time will tell.  

Policies not Politics


Several Things (4.00 / 2)
First off, that's not my insight. That was quoted from Perlstein's book review.

Second, however I think there's another close-related factor, which I have mentioned before that is my insight.  Picking up where you say:

It also helps explain the degree to which dogmatists (especially religious ones) will go to suppress contrary ideas. I've always viewed this as them seeing it as a threat to their view by offering other framings and thus leading to the possibility of defection. This would be yet another example of the power framing, but if we interpret it as a fear instead things take on a whole new light.

It seems clear from recent history that conservatives are much more fearful than others and that is believed to be the motivation for them adhering to the strong father model (Daddy will protect me). But even without the protective aspect (are gays going to come into their homes and perform forced marriages?) the desire to eliminate the source of their anxiety justifies to them their intolerant actions.

The power and fear frames are closely connected, IMHO.  The possibility of defection goes to the fear of one's own inner feelings getting the best of one, and the need for a strong outside authority to help keep one's inner demons under control.  This is relatively well-recognized and discussed, particularly around gay rights vs homophobia.

But there's an even deeper, more general thing going on, related to what I've written before about Kegan's Level 3 self, which is constituted out of the social roles and relationships of the existing society.  Liberal tolerance can extremely threatening simply because allowing something like gay marriage undermines the very foundations of the self as a sociallly-dependent construct.  Of course, there's no inherent reason whatsoever that gay people marrying should umdermine straight marriage. But if one buys the meme then what's at stake is not just something one values but something at the core of what one is.

This is roughly the same as the existential threat of black freedom to the dirt poor white portrayed in Bob Dylan's "Only A Pawn in Their Game":

A South politician preaches to the poor white man,
"You got more than the blacks, don't complain.
You're better than them, you been born with white skin," they explain.
And the Negro's name
Is used it is plain
For the politician's gain
As he rises to fame
And the poor white remains
On the caboose of the train
But it ain't him to blame
He's only a pawn in their game.

One thing Dylan didn't capture in this song was the level at which poor whites envied blacks, because blacks, at least, were quite clear about where they stood, and thus they enjoyed a certain existential freedom and clarity--although Dylan does pound quite hard on the poor white's lack of same.  This envy was often expressed in terms of taboo black sexuality, but this was only partial admission of a much deeper spiritual envy & taboo.

Third, I think your first sentence here is directly contradicted by the rest of the paragraph:

As for the practical politics of the moment, it is not at all clear to me what sort of mindset Obama has. I think he has a great deal of empathy for the weak, but his whole life has been moving upward within the conventional meritocracy and power structure. He admires order and logic, hence his choice of a specialty which is highly formalist and his affiliation with U Chicago. He has also surrounded himself with highly conventional, though bright, advisers. Not a radical in the bunch.

I think you've got a very good handle on it.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Agree with Paul. But Perlstein? Not so much. (4.00 / 4)
To put it abstractly, the right always has in mind a prescriptive vision of its ideal future world - a normative vision. Unlike the left (at least since Karl Marx neglected to include an actual description of the "dictatorship of the proletariat" within the 2,500 pages of Das Kapital), conservatives have always known what the world would look like after their revolution: hearth, home, church, a businessman's republic.
This is almost right, you just have to flip it around 180º. Perlstein seems to have been confused by their use of 'Reagan Revolution'. The Conservatives do not believe in 'revolution', instead they believe in 'restoration'. For Conservatives the Golden Age is always in the past, often an imagined past that never actually existed. And while that past is always hierarchical what is more important is that it is structured and that everyone knows his place.

Conservatives prize being seen to be from a 'good family' or the 'right people', they traditionally tended to valorize 'old money' over 'new money' (this broke down in the Reagan/Bush era, now any money is good if it comes in huge chunks). Conservatives have seen the future world and they don't like what they see, instead their prescriptive vision would have them firmly back in small town Ohio in 1898. Think Sinclair Lewis' 'Main Street'. Yes the Conservative world is built around hearth, home, church and a businesman's republic. But they wish Queen Victoria was still on the throne and that the servants knew their place. Which was in the neighborhood across the tracks with the rest of their 'kind'. Read the full text of Reagan's 1984 ad.

It's morning again in America. Today more men and women will go to work than ever before in our country's history. With interest rates at about half the record highs of 1980, nearly 2,000 families today will buy new homes, more than at any time in the past four years. This afternoon 6,500 young men and women will be married, and with inflation at less than half of what it was just four years ago, they can look forward with confidence to the future. It's morning again in America, and under the leadership of President Reagan, our country is prouder and stronger and better. Why would we ever want to return to where we were less than four short years ago?
Note the use of "again" and the repeated reference to the "past four years". Those pesky forward thinking Democrats broke America and Reagan put it right back where it was. In the past. Restored and of course under strong leadership.

Liberals typically look forward and wide and think in pragmatic terms of greatest good for greatest numbers. Conservatives look backwards and upwards and not only tolerate social and economic inequality but valorize it. Not only are the two world views divergent they don't even share the same axes while looking.


Right (4.00 / 1)
Conservatives always want to return to a Golden Age that never actually existed, even given their warped view of what such a Golden Age would look like.

[ Parent ]
Very True But (4.00 / 1)
I don't think this contradicts Perlstein at all. It merely adds something that he'd readily agree to. After all, the fact that the conservative vision is past-driven (albeit mostly an imaginary past) is one of the reasons it can be so succinctly described.

I didn't get into this further, because it was ancillary to my main thrust, but I also think that liberals have a good deal more in the way of a substantive vision than Perlstein suggests--it's just that it's not etched in stone, any number of ways to achieve it would be acceptable.  Which is only logical, since none of us have seen the future yet.

Again, I think that Perlstein would agree with my point as well.  This was, after all, a book review, not a full-blown teatise on political philosophy.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I had to title the piece something (4.00 / 2)
And I thought it important to introduce the idea that liberals and conservatives were not battling over alternate futures, that would put them in the Obama camp. I was suggesting that this particular passage from Perstein kind of undercut your argument.

[ Parent ]
Knowing your place (4.00 / 3)
Picking up on Paul and RDF's exchange.

First I don't quite buy the poor white envy piece. What a white man in the South expected and mostly got was deference, He was Mr. as opposed to Boy. This was threatened but not eliminated by knowing there were blacks who were more economically successful, as long as they shopped in their own shops, prayed in their own churches and lived in their own neighborhoods then deference was preserved. After all what are the words often used by white racists to justify violent action? The black man was 'insolent' or more tellingly 'uppity', he was refusing to maintain his place in the social structure.

And I think that same dynamic applies to gay marriage. American men tend to define masculinity in terms of non-gayness as in 'at least I am not gay' and gayness in terms of submission. This is there doesn't seem to be much fundamental distaste with the sexual act in general, the fear is being seen as submissive. Pre Stonewall the societal role for gays was to be submissive, to be roughed up on the school yard and to be freely harrassed on the streets by thugs and cops. In so doing they allowed non-gay men to maintain their place in the established order. Uncloseted gays are a threat to that order and married gays even more so.

The same analysis applies to women's liberation. The conservative white working class guy desperately clings to a world where he knows that whatever else and no matter how much a loser he is on the material front he can still look at himself in the mirror and say 'At least I am not black, or gay, or a woman'.

I took a course in Icelandic Saga from a visiting Professor from Germany who was openly gay. Many of the Sagas are built around the Feud and seem at first read to be undermotivated, why start something that could end up as an intergenerational war over what seems to be a trifle? Well the Professor went through and showed that in case after case the feuds started after one protagonist was put in a position (often literal) where he appeared submissive to the other. It turns out that pride of place was a life or death matter in medieval Iceland.

None of this excuses racism, misogyny, homophobia, I mean  we had the Enlightenment it is time to move beyond these fears that are rooted in insecurity. But before Conservatives or anyone for that matter can move on they have to understand the roots.

I am finding that you can explain a whole lot about human behavior by studying a baboon troop (another of my professors was a pioneer of long-term field study of primates). Not every male ends up with access to females or gets more food than the rest of the troop, but by God he gets deference from males below him and will fight to maintain position.

Why on earth would a mob lynch a black teenager because he whistled at a white girl? Why would one black teenager shoot another black teenager over a scuffed shoe? And why would a white guy get so worked up over gay marriage that he would consider  violence?

It is all about the Respect and your Inner Baboon. And avoiding being seen as being at the bottom of the social order.


[ Parent ]
Not A Contradiction (4.00 / 2)
I'm simply suggesting that there's a covert psychic undercurrent that runs counter to the more overt one.

Any sort of false privilege system has its costs that can only eat away at one all the more in the wee hours of the night the more unthinkable it is to contemplate them openly in polite company.

Hence, Ted Haggard and Jesse Helms' black love child.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Great post if written three months ago (4.00 / 1)
With Obama pushing for budgeting health care in conference to avoid the filibuster, this doesn't hit the mark as strong as it would have a few months ago.

Still, the core is just as true now as it ever was and ever will be.  Well worth reading.


I don't assume Obama misinterprets them (4.00 / 4)
I assume we misinterpret Obama.

I think Obama misleads liberals with progressive rhetoric but is a conservative.

My blog  


I have a different interpretation of Obama (0.00 / 0)
I think he buys into a ideology of (lowercase) democracy that says that everyone must be treated as (or at least be perceived to be treated as) good-faith rational actors.  This is the same as theoretically allowing everyone a vote, even though we know that some people are morons.  He may just be incapable of treating conservatives as unequal.

Things You Don't Talk About in Polite Company: Religion, Politics, the Occasional Intersection of Both

But It's NOT About Equality (4.00 / 3)
After all, they lost the election, and there come certain points where he is willing to remind them of that, and let that be the final word.

OTOH, the rational actor theory is definitely one particular species of the more inclusive attitude I'm describing, so I would agree with you there 100%.  It's the linking of this with the right to vote and therefore (implicitly) equality that's where you lose me.

Unless you're attempting to make different sort of linkage.  But that would still leave your last sentence unexplained.  It might well be the sort of thing he might say himself in some situation, but it's clearly nonsense in at least two senses:

(1) As noted above, they lost, and treating them as if they didn't is not treating them as equal, but as superior.

(2) They simply don't know the meaning of equal.  So treating them "as equal" is always going to fail, one way or another.  This shouldn't be taken as an excuse to abuse them the way they abuse us.  It should, however, serve to problematize the seemingly simple locution.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
THIS STUFF IS "ABOVE... (4.00 / 1)
...MY PAY GRADE." (LOL)

You're Getting PAID? (4.00 / 1)
Hey, how'd I miss out on that?

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Grand, isn't it? (0.00 / 0)
Some of the best brain candy on the internet, right here.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
Your formulation is a little off, I think (0.00 / 0)
For:

"Obama thinks that conservatives are just liberals with a different set of ideas."

Read:

"Obama thinks that liberals are just conservatives with a different set of ideas."

Eh?

I am in earnest -- I will not equivocate -- I will not excuse -- I will not retreat a single inch -- AND I WILL BE HEARD.  


The Old Yin-Yang (0.00 / 0)
I do think there's an undertone of that.  But only an undertone.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Obama doesn't think "conservatives are just liberals with different ideas." (0.00 / 0)
You're misreading his ideology.  Obama says and does what he does because he is, in fact, a member of the hard right.  He's just better at masking it than Bush and Cheney are.  When Obama uses right-wing framing to discuss issues such as torture, health care, and the economy, it's because he believes in the ideology of the far right.  When Obama praised the late and unlamented-by-all-but-Nazis Reagan, he really meant what he said.



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