I suspect Paul would agree with you (0.00 / 0)

I didn't take any universals in his descriptions of conservatives, just generalities, which of course allow for plenty of individual exceptions.

But authoritarianism and conservativism are deeply linked and most conservatives are significantly more authoritarian than most liberals or even most moderates.  So you're always going to be talking about a minority of conservatives who are easily amenable to anti-authoritarian logic and reason.  

I've seen more than enough ordinary conservatives making emphatic defences of torture to give them a pass and that they're just victims of a few bad eggs at the top.  

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by: Daniel De Groot @ Sun May 03, 2009 at 19:28:52 PM CDT

I know a few Republican/Conservatives... (4.00 / 1)

...who I describe as self-projection delusional.  These are conservative businesspeople who run their businesses ethically and treat their employees well, fair pay, health care, etc.  They don't cook the books or manipulate appearances for maximum profits and minimum taxes (they do take advantage of the tax code legally and ethically).

They think every one runs their business this way and thus the government has no business intervening and mandating wages or health care, etc.

They are disgusted by the expenses of excessive regulatory actions and oversight, much like anyone else innocent of a crime, the accusation is very insulting to them.

A problem both sides have is demonizing the opposition in very general terms - it has proven to be a staple of electoral campaigning.  Those of us that do it for a living have certainly learned that black and white situations are certainly easier to explain to people than the millions of shades of gray that actually exist.

Some issues we just assume that all liberals support and conservatives oppose.  Generalizations are made and the worst among us (on both sides) are used as symbols of the whole 'group'.

I am a fierce liberal, proud and confident.  I oppose 'hate crimes legislation'.  Clearly this is at odds with a significant percentage of other self proclaimed liberals, who I see attacking every opponent of such legislation as being a bigot, racist, gay-basher, evil, etc and proclaiming that Hate Crimes legislation is a no brainer to support.  I believe in full recognition of rights of all citizens, protection from discrimination, equal rights and equal pay.  I cannot wrap my head around the concept that we should legislate based on thoughts and motives.  Murder is murder, I don't care if you did it because the person was the wrong ethnicity or because the person stepped on your shoelace.  If you are going to mark up crimes for being committed for bad reasons, are you going to mark down crimes for being committed for good reasons?  The whole thing is absurd to me.

In the end, we need to realize that the spectrum of citizens (voters) is not binary or even a 10 digit digital array.  It is more like an analog radio dial, you can find anything anywhere on the spectrum, and you can't judge what the station will play based on how they describe themselves.

This gets in to another discussion, self identification is challenging to deal with.  A person who self identifies as a Republican may have no conservative values whatsoever, and may or may not vote accordingly.  Many people are significantly influenced by their parents in how they register, either as a following of their parents lead, or a rebellion of their parents wishes.  The reality of American Politics often forgotten is that for every one of us discussing this on the Internet (or offline with friends/coworkers/family), there are thousands of Americans, many of whom vote regularly, that have no interest in any of the reasoning, history or outcome effects.  Most Americans see themselves as 'average' in nearly every way, income, education, etc - even those in the top 5% and bottom 5% of income.

People are significantly more likely to vote in the manner they are registered, I don't have stats but it is overwhelming.  The shift we are seeing to Democratic and Indy registration (depending on who's numbers you look at) and away from Republican are very encouraging, but not a "permanent majority" inducer.  Just as we flipped the switch this way, we can flip it back (or the opposition can flip it for us).

So back to those self projecting delusionals.  They aren't bad/evil people, and yet they also don't recognize people like Rove, Coulter and Cheney as such either.  Why?  Religion, the faith of Party Loyalty.  They know that we attack theirs and vilify them, just as their people attack and vilify our people.  They see the people on their side being "attacked" as heroes and champions standing up to the savage onslaught of "socialists".  It is all just successful marketing and faith generation.  Fox News and the increase in conservative ownership in major media outlets has of course hurt us in this regard.  So they trust their heroes and everything bad just reinforces their faith, it is counter-intuitive yes, but it functions like a religion.  The same is true on the left, maybe not as prevalent and exaggerated as it is on the right, currently, but still present.

This is a long comment and kind of all over the map, ymmv.

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by: mp @ Sun May 03, 2009 at 19:45:44 PM CDT

Please read Altemeyer's book (0.00 / 0)

There are links to it all over the thread.

When you read it, you will find yourself making much more precise distinctions about the word "conservative," which I myself have an issue with given that common usage has made it more or less meaningless, the rhetoric blowing through our national discourse and so on.

There are high-scoring, mid-scoring and low-scoring RWAs. These are important distinctions. Conservatives all fall into that continuum, but there are important differences between individuals.

Funny thing is, if you ask a conservative to make these same distinctions, they typically have a real difficulty doing so. I go through this with the conservatives I know and work with all the time.


When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it.

-- Frederic Bastiat, "The Law", 1850

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by: Emocrat @ Sun May 03, 2009 at 21:47:11 PM CDT

It Would Help If You'd Actually Read What I Write (0.00 / 0)

I was writing about movement conservatism.  I've repeatedly pointed out the differences between movement conservatism and everyday conservatives.

For example, I've shown that only around 1% of all Americans favor an intersection of two key movement conservative positions: (a) cutting government social spending and (b) opposing abortion in all cases, including health and safety of the mother.  It's not just liberals, or even liberals and moderates together.  The vast majority of conservatives oppose this agenda.

The problem with Obama--as with the rest of the political class--is that they confuse the much more diverse views of self-identified conservative voters with the much more narrow views of the movement conservatives who have a stranglehold on the Republican Party.

Of course, the influence of RWA also means that everyday conservatives are more likely to believe their leaders, even when those leaders are fooling them, and actually disagree with their values.  This is where the "Joe the Plumber" phenomena comes in.  You're never going to convince not-Joe the not-Plumber of anything.  But you can use him to educate others.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

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by: Paul Rosenberg @ Mon May 04, 2009 at 10:01:57 AM CDT