Barack Obama: Legitimate Disappointment And What To Do About It

by: Paul Rosenberg

Sat May 09, 2009 at 11:00


There are lots of ways people express disappointment with Barack Obama on lots of different subjects.  There's a similar diversity of responses defending him, on the one hand, as well as those deriding people for ever having expected anything more.  Without denying any of this diversity, I'd like to argue non-exclusively a case for disappointment, and what should be done about it.  This case goes back to several statements, and the overall tone conveyed in David's 2006 piece on Obama for The Nation, "Mr. Obama Goes to Washington".

The general outlines of my argument are these:

(1) There many defenders who still insist that Obama is a great progressive leader, and anyone who doesn't see that unrealistic, rigid, and/or an ideologue.  

(2) There are many detractors who say that anyone who ever thought Obama was a progressive was delusional.

(3) My position has always been that Obama's conciliatory, risk-averse style was inherently problematic, but not necessarily fatally so, particularly since he showed signs, and gave verbal assurances that he was capable of a much more confrontational approach, if that should prove necessary.  Thus both (1) and (2) were plausibly defensible positions at one time, before Obama took office.  But that time has now passed.

(4) The case for legitimate disappointment now rests on the fact that Obama has not lived up to the promise of taking a harder line, if necessary--quite the opposite, he has been conciliatory in ways that undermine the prospects for even the sorts of change that he himself  still advocates for.

(5) The proper response should not depend on trying to figure out "what Obama really thinks" or "how he feels" or anything else to do with his personal disposition.  The response should have to do with changing the overall political situation in which he's acting.  (The disposition/situation dichotomy is a major theme this weekend, up to and including the extensive theoretical work of Harvard law professor Jon D. Hanson on the situationist perspective.) This does mean making one judgment about his disposition: he's a whole let less proactive in changing the political landscape than a lot of his supporters took him to be.  Which is why I've repeatedly said that he reminds me of JFK.  In the long run, JFK's relatively timid disposition was overwhelmed by the changing situation.  So may it be again.

Paul Rosenberg :: Barack Obama: Legitimate Disappointment And What To Do About It
Here are two key passages from David's article where Obama makes his case for a flexible progressivism that's non-confrontational in preference, but not rigidly so.

In the first passage, Obama even goes so far as to reject the "non-confrontational" perception.  The issue is not confrontational vs. non-confrontational, he argues, but whether one lets confrontation emerge organically:

Many progressives wonder whether Obama will show that an outsider can force real change in government, or that the Senate club has become so insulated that Mr. Smith can no longer go to Washington. But that question brings another one: whether Obama wants to challenge the club in the first place. "There's no doubt that I will be staking out more public positions on more issues as time goes on," Obama said cryptically. Does that mean he is going to be more confrontational? "The question is not whether you end up being confrontational," he said in a tone that made clear he had been pondering that idea long before I brought it up. "The question is, Do you let confrontations arise as a consequence of your putting forward a positive vision of what needs to happen and letting the confrontation organically emerge, or do you go out of your way for it?"

Now, I want to make very clear that I have no problem whatsoever with the position Obama stakes out in the bolded passage above.  In fact, more than that, I heartily endorse it--despite, or even because of the fact that I'm at least two orders of magnitude to the left of Obama.  Indeed, I see this exact same philosophy regarding confrontation in the politics of many figures whom I most admire.  It was certainly there in Martin Luther King's philosophy, as spelled out quite explicitly in his Letter From Birmingham Jail, as I discussed in my December 2007 diary "Martin Luther King and The Moral Imperative For Polarization".  And it was there in elected political figures like Ron Dellums and Paul Wellstone.

It's just common sense, really.  If your politics is both morally-based and reality-based, then the firmest possible foundation for success is to focus on advancing what you stand for, rather than throwing yourself off-balance by picking fights based on strategy or tactics divorced from your core vision.  Heck, forget progressive politics.  This is just martial arts 101. (And my sister's the black belt in our family.)

But how has this promise worked out in practice?  Not very well, it would seem.

On issue after issue where naturally allowing confrontation to unfold would have both advanced the cause of justice and put a solid majority of the American people on his side, Obama has ducked--and actually weakened his political position.  He's done this most notably on the stimulus, reducing its size and effectiveness in a fruitless effort to gain more GOP support, on the issue of torture, where a clear majority of American people wants either criminal or general fact-finding investigations.

His bottom line rationale in both these cases seems to be that conflict on these issues would make progress on other "more important" issues more difficult.  But this  rationale effectively contradicts the heart of what the bolded passage above.  Indeed, Obama's actions indicate that he's quite willing to avoid confrontation, despite the fact that doing so weakens his position overall.  Of course, I'm sure he doesn't see it that way.  But that's largely because his governing style shows a distinct bias to over-value the power of Versailles insiders--in direct contradiction of his campaigning style and strategy.  Forget "having the courage of his convictions".  Obama seems utterly oblivious to the primary source of his own political power.  It's like Sampson insisting on a daily haircut--a buzz-cut at that.

In short, what I'm pointing to here is that Obama's failure to deliver is quite plausibly explicable in terms of his perception of his political situation, and the radical disjuncture between that and what we might reasonably take for granted given both his campaign rhetoric and his campaign practice of grassroots mobilization.

This is where Obama's relative lack of political experience comes into focus as genuinely problematic--not because he it means he's political incapable (the standard argument), but because it means we have had an inadequate track record on which to judge how he might perceive his own situation, and therefore how he might act within it.

This is further reinforced, and given added specificity by the following passage:

Shifting back to how he sees himself in the Senate, Obama seemed to amend his previous statement about what kind of leadership progressives can expect from him. "I am agnostic in terms of the models that solve these problems," he said. "If the only way to solve a problem is structural, institutional change, then I will be for structural, institutional change. If I think we can achieve those same goals within the existing institutions, then I am going to try to do that, because I think it's going to be easier to do and less disruptive and less costly and less painful.... I think everybody in this country should have basic healthcare. And what I'm trying to figure out is how to get from here to there." He went on to tell me about his support for other structural changes such as public financing of elections, forcing broadcasters to offer free airtime for candidates, adding strong labor protections to trade pacts and major efforts to create a more just tax system.

It's important to note that the bolded passage above referred to Obama describing his outlook within a two-fold framework: (1) that of being a senator, and (2) that of working for change in a fundamentally stable situation, where there is demonstrably less pain in the present situation than there would be in the process of structural change.  Given that framework, there's a certain inherent pragmatic logic that one might philosophically disagree with, but would still have to respect as having legitimacy, especially if it comports with his basic temperament, and is held in good faith.

However, that two-fold framework no longer obtains for a number of the most important issues that Obama confronts. Equally importantly, some of his political timidity doesn't even involve matters of "structural, institutional change," about which he seems disturbingly unclear.

For example, on the promisory side, "forcing broadcasters to offer free airtime for candidates," is not a "structural, institutional change."  It's a rather modest functional reform.  It might face fierce special interest opposition, but that fact alone does nothing to alter the nature of the proposed reform itself.  Full public financing of elections--with free public airtime as part of the package--now that's "structural, institutional change."  

On the delivery side, Obama appears to regard EFCA--which he has barely even given lip-service to since taking office--as another example of  "structural, institutional change."  But that's utterly mistaken.  Indeed, part of the beauty of EFCA is precisely that it's not that sort of change, but rather an example of procedural change with the potential for vast and sweeping changes over time, but ones that will necessarily unfold in a relatively organic, gradualist fashion.  One might even argue that EFCA is an ideal example of a Cass Sunstein Nudge, in the best possible sense.

Again, it seems quite likely that Obama just doesn't see things this way, else his actions would be quite different.  One doesn't have to believe there's some flaw in his character, causing him not to deliver.  It's quite sufficient to posit that he simply perceives his political situation in very different terms, and is responding consistently, given that perception.

What all the above implies is two-fold:  First, that progressives need to focus on the political situation, more than on Obama disposition.  Second, in a somewhat contradictory manner, that progressives need to focus on Obama's perception of his political situation.  The apparent contradiction is lessened, however--though not resolved--by observing that Obama's perception appears to be highly dependent on his social surround: bring pressure to alter the consensus around him, and his perception will change as well.

Easier said than done, of course.  But it does at least afford some conceptual clarity of what we are up against, and some guide as to how we might strategize to make him act differently.  If the goal is to "make him do it" ala FDR, then we need an accurate understanding of what that would entail.  This analysis in a attempt to improve that understanding, and advance the discussion so that others might improve it further.

A Final Word On Confronting Hegemony

The above analysis also provides some insight into one of the benefits of a hegemonic analysis.  The more that background assumptions are made problematic--which is one of the key components of hegemonic analysis--the greater the possibility for a shift in Obama's perception of his political situation.  This is not the only purpose for a hegemonic analysis, nor is hegemonic analysis all that's needed to move Obama.  It's merely an indication of how the two are related--and not necessarily the only way they are related, either.

With that in mind, the majority of my diaries this weekend will revolve around confronting hegemony on three fronts:

(1) Supreme Court nominations & conservative hegemony in law.
(2) The military, the media and the war.
(3) The meltdown and economics.

In the spirit of the above discussion, Obama and his policies are not the prime targets of these forthcoming diaries, but they are not unrelated, either, even when they are not directly implicated.


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I don't have time to do a full response or even read this now (4.00 / 7)
but I just wanted to say that I agree with your thrust that point is no longer to evaluate Obama but how to put pressure on and move him where we want him to take the country.  It's an argument I've been making for some time.

sTiVo's rule: Just because YOU "wouldn't put it past 'em" doesn't prove that THEY did it.

I'm back now and I'm disappointed (4.00 / 7)
About 90% of the responses are still dealing with forging an assessment of Barack Obama.  That seems to be all that the responders know how to do.

I will keep my assessment of Barack Obama provisional until such time as it has some consequences - support him or not for re-election and if so, how much.  Otherwise, it's all bullshit.  I don't know Barack Obama's inner soul, I cannot, and it's a waste of time.  I can come up with plausible scenarios that put him on the progressive side of the line, doing the best that can be done in this environment for the country - and other scenarios that are far more negative.  I'm not ashamed to admit that I vacillate between these two poles.  I guess it does largely come down to where he spends his political capital.  It will become more solid based on what is actually accomplished during his Presidency.  

But for those who are determined to give their final grade to Barack Obama now - pro or con - I would ask you this question:

What, given your assessment, are you DOING (as opposed to writing here) that is different from what you would be DOING if your assessment went the other way?

sTiVo's rule: Just because YOU "wouldn't put it past 'em" doesn't prove that THEY did it.


[ Parent ]
. (1.00 / 8)
I'd like to point out that my personal narrative isn't that you are unrealistic/rigid or delusional.

I just think you suck at what you do. If you could do anything about Obama then maybe you'd be able to take the real step and get candidates you like elected in the first place. But you can't so I put your political prognostications in the same category as I put shit I read from Jonah Goldberg.

Really it comes to point 3. Obama's "risk adverse style" still got him more and placed him in the position to do more than some dumb fuck like Edwards who would never even sniff the presidency in the first place. But Edwards was the confrontational one. Style points yes, accomplishment... not so much.

To explain the dynamic, I like the cap and trade example. It's vintage Obama. He didn't make a big fight to get cap and trade passed through the budget because he doesn't have too. He can put the squeeze on people using the EPA. That's the way things usually work with Obama. He puts people in a position where they stand to lose more by shunning him.


You STILL Can't Read (4.00 / 4)
This:

I put your political prognostications in the same category as I put shit I read from Jonah Goldberg.

Might hurt if you had any demonstrable reading skills whatsoever.  Unfortunatel, you do not.  So this comment is written for the benefit of others, not you, even though it is formally addressed to you.

Nothing I wrote here was a call for a more confrontational style ala Edwards, even though I certainly do feel that that would be far more effective in the current political climate.

What I did write about was how Obama has failed to deliver what he himself promised: a style that is patient, and consensus-seeking, but that nonetheless allows confrontation to emerge organically.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
WHOA! (4.00 / 2)
John Edwards was 'confrontational'?  REALLY?  This is a guy who ran for federal office 3 times, and all 3, he had the most popular and profitable positions staked out as his own - mind you they were completely different each time.

Running for NC Senator he was a right of center Dixiecrat type Democrat with no hint of any progressive or gasp liberal thoughts.

Running for president in 2004 he was slightly left of center, talking with some populist tone mixed with a conservative family values wrapper, not quite shed of his dixiecratness but also not quite in the realm of a populist or progressive, still no hint of anything in the direction of 'liberal'.

Running for President in 2008, he was nearly 100% populist and made an effort to project supreme leftness at every turn.  There were some missteps along the way as his old thoughts tripped him up on gay marriage, but he used his wife (who always projected slightly left of him) as a deflector shield.  He then pushed farther left on just about every issue.

How can you be "confrontational" when you have taken the most popular positions?  You are only making false confrontations, the jury had deliberated and come back against big oil, so sure he could 'attack' them.  The same goes for Iraq and Health Care.

Having met every presidential candidate (on both sides) for 2008, John Edwards and Tom Tancredo were the only ones who made me feel like I needed a disinfectant shower immediately after shaking their hands, for different reasons.  Tancredo has some serious 'I hate brown people' cooties going on, hate like that is tough to wash off.


[ Parent ]
Edwards Was "Confrontational" (4.00 / 5)
in the sense that he spoke plainly and bluntly about what he stood for, even though it was only supported by the people, and not the political elites, who either sneered at or ignored him.

He was far from the ideal candidate, even aside from his infidelity, which was not known at the time.  But his focus on populist substance most certainly was confrontational, so far as Versailles is concerned.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Oh really? .. (4.00 / 3)
That's the way things usually work with Obama. He puts people in a position where they stand to lose more by shunning him.

You mean like the bankruptcy bill?  Where he campaigned for it and then didn't work the Senate to get it passed?


[ Parent ]
. (0.00 / 0)
It's looking like he traded cramdown for credit card bill which is going to require a bigger fight anyways.

[ Parent ]
It passed the House 357-70. (4.00 / 3)
It's difficult to argue that it's politically bolder to advocate for the credit card bill over cramdown.

[ Parent ]
. (0.00 / 0)
The fight is keeping the banks from getting uppity and pressing their congressional buttons.

I think for a lot of this, people don't see where the power centers are. They think it's just Obama vs. senator X. It isn't always like that.


[ Parent ]
You mean that useless credit card bill (4.00 / 2)
that does nothing to address the usurious rate hikes that have already occurred, constituting the majority of credit customers? If so it's a pathetic tradeoff. The credit card bill is a sham, allowing Washington to look like it's doing something for consumers when it really isn't.

[ Parent ]
Are you joking? (1.33 / 6)
Alomost a year and a half ago I stood up and cast my lot for Barack Obama in the middle of a local Democratic convention made up of a combination of Edwards and Clinton blue collar union workers.  They thought I was nuts.  Some threatened my career.  Well we won my state of MO in the primary and of course the rest is history.  All the way we were threatened with birth certificate, flag pins, you name it, and that was by the Clinton supporters.  In fact what McCain threw at Barack did not even approximate what Hillary threw at him, and for that I thank her.  We overcame at every turn and now we have a President who early on is showing signs of having righted the economic ship, and is lifting the mood of the country.  So why the FUCK you think you are smarter than him is beyond me, but please, share your stash, because you must be smoking good stuff.  You must not be so enamored with the the vaunted concept of progessivism that you ignore a progressive accomplishment.  You have your own radical agenda, far beyond health care or EFCA, in fact you are a radical narcissist who is more concerned with your own brand of takeover than any reasonable attempt at sensible governance.  Sure restructure the banks right now Paul and David.  Because we all know the first thing a trauma victim needs in the ER is a dietician, STAT!  

[ Parent ]
Criticizing someone (4.00 / 7)
and analyzing their behaviour, and finding ways they could do something better has nothing to do with thinking you are smarter than they are.  

This comment is vacuous.  It basically just tells us to get the fuck in line and accept whatever our leaders want us to do.  When the Republicans did it, they followed the Pied Piper Bush into the river.

Oh, and the implication that anyone to the left of Obama is a pot smoking airhead is also appreciated.


[ Parent ]
Good thing you (4.00 / 4)
put those idiot blue collar union workers in their place. That'll learn 'em whose side the Democratic Party is on.

Ass.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
sure, Obama achieved the pinnacle of power (4.00 / 4)
but will he use that power to solve problems?

Bush also achieved the pinnacle of power (by theft, yes, but he did it). And he squandered it.

As avid watchers of Scarface know, getting to the top is totally different from knowing what to do when you get to the top.

As for cap and trade, 1) the administration is moving away from 100% auction, even before the bill hits the full House; and 2) the EPA regulating carbon emissions in vehicles is not a substitute for Congressional action.

There are also rumblings from "centrist" and conservative Democrats in the House to table cap and trade in favor of health care:

"I think it's the wrong time for a cap and trade," said Rep. Artur Davis (D-Ala.), the co-chairman of the centrist House New Democrat Coalition. "I think health care is achievable. It's doable. And when I move around my district, and my state, and people ask me what is Congress going to do to fix health care. They don't frankly ask me what Congress is going to do to fix climate change."

Davis, who is running for governor in 2010, said he could count on about 40 to 50 House Democrats who would vote against the climate proposal despite President Obama's request earlier this week to push ahead on the issue.

"It's not my role to stop anybody," Davis said. "I'm just saying there's a significant body of members who are not going to vote for a cap-and-trade regime. And you can dress it up in a lot of different ways, but if it's still a cap-and-trade regime at the end of the day, it's still going to be hard to sell to a lot of members."

And the bill is being watered down dramatically:

Perhaps most important, sponsors of the legislation appear to be inching closer to a deal on the distribution of emission allowances that begins by giving away as much as 55 percent of the credits for free: 40 percent for the local distribution companies that service the electric utility industry, and 15 percent for heavy industries deemed especially vulnerable to international trade.

After about 10 to 15 years of the cap-and-trade program, the free credits would phase out in favor of an auction, said Rep. Mike Doyle (D-Pa.).

So, still think that "softly, softly" is the right approach?


[ Parent ]
. (0.00 / 0)
Of course it's going to be watered down, it has to go through fucking congress. The key right now is getting them to pass it at all. You can worry about purity later.

the point is that the EPA regulations will force industries to put pressure on congress to pass a cap and trade bill they have a stake in. Like I said, it's about recognizing power centers and how to use them


[ Parent ]
if the goal is merely to pass a piece of paper (4.00 / 4)
with the words "climate protection" written over the top, then it will fail.

The key is to get it right. And no, we can't "worry about it later", because we need to start moving now to avoid the worst effects of climate change. 10-15 years is time we can't afford to waste.


[ Parent ]
Political constraints are political constraints. Special interests don't disappear (0.00 / 0)
Filibusters don't disappear

[ Parent ]
you can't negotiate with nature. (4.00 / 4)
Period. The climate doesn't give a damn about political constraints.

If the problem is not addressed immediately, we're in for a world of hurt. There's simply no way around it.


[ Parent ]
I have a problem wiht your pemise.... (4.00 / 4)
I'm not disappointed with him at all...

Sure, I'd like him to do some more spending on that enormous political capital that he has, but he's already done more positive good for the country than we've had in 30 years...

I'm not sure what people were hoping for, but like Lyndsey Graham, who retreats to his red state enclave and presumes that Obama is alienating America 'cos everyone "he knows" doesn't approve, I can only presume that something similar is happening with our group here...

But, as a GenX'er (the most republican group in America) living in a conservative swing state that has been red until this year, Obama's changes have been nothing short of revolutionary.... The fact that he still has such high approval ratings after going against the conventional political wisdom of the last 30 years amazes and impresses me....  I remember vividly the hope of Clinton's progressive presidency turn to dust due to the ignorance of the masses... eventually, he just gave up...

Maybe, I am still recovering from battered Dem syndrome, but I think people need to be a little more grateful for what we've received... a guy who's leading a transformational presidency at the moment (knock on wood)...

Do we want him to do more?  Absolutely!  And we should keep pushing him... just remember, that with everything the right got in the past 30 years, they didn't get the big things... social security destruction, major tax reform (i.e. flat tax), total theocracy embedded in the constitution....  If you ask any right wing activist, they would say the last 30 years were a failure...  Just some perspective to keep in mind...

REID: Voting against us was never part of our arrangement!
SPECTER: I am altering the deal! Pray I don't alter it any further!
REID: This deal keeps getting worse all the time!


BREAKING NEWS: It's NOT "The Last 30 Years" Any More! (4.00 / 5)
The fact that he still has such high approval ratings after going against the conventional political wisdom of the last 30 years amazes and impresses me....

This just in: the American people, as a whole, have turned almost totally against the conventional political wisdom of the last 30 years.

Of course, they were always against much of it, since the heart of the CW was that they had to be either fooled or ignored, but now even that's not working so well.  And the end result is that Obama is much more a continuation of the old CW than what the people themselves now want.  

Bailing out the banks, but not the homeowners (whose bankruptcies depress the values of entire neighborhoods, thereby taking down progressively more and more homeowners)?  How is this such an amazing break with the CW of the past?

I think you're confusing Barack Obama with Dick Durbin.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I think its much easier to see the effects of Obama's style in a conservative state (4.00 / 1)
I don't think its a matter of the more liberal democrats seeing obama as a conservative though.  

Its mainly a matter of priorities.  EFCA is something Obama supports, but it isn't his priority.  So those democrats that have EFCA as first priority are going to be unhappy with Obama.

Much like how the Republican party used to have the libertarians vs the social conservative the democrats have the unionists vs the professionals.  

The unionists already have good healthcare.  And they don't see themselves as fitting into the culture of the new energy companies so Obama's main priorities are a wash for them.  And Obama's transformational style doesn't really benefit them either.

Obama won because he united the minorities of the democratic party with the professionals.  Obama both fits with some of the culture of minorities and some of the culture of the professionals.  But he only supports the priorities of the unionists.  He doesn't go out of his way to promote them.

So its perfectly reasonable for the unionists to be unhappy with Obama's priorities.  

And that's not going to change.  I think in the end they will be happy enough with how things turn out, but they will never be happy with Obama.

http://transgendermom.blogspot....


[ Parent ]
So Wrong In So Many Ways (4.00 / 4)
First, let's think of this like wonky teenagers, visualizing things in terms of Venn diagrams.  First of all, the set U of all union members and the set P of all professionals has a non-empty intersection.  There are teachers, engineers, nurses, even some doctors in that set, just to name a few.  Second, the set U of all union members only overlaps with the set H of those who have decent healthcare, it's not a subset of H.  As a matter of fact, unions amongst the very strongest supporters of universal health care.  Third, the set M of minorities and the set U of union members also has a non-empty intersection.  And this intersection is particularly prone to not have decent health care, even if they do have some coverage.

So, in short, your Versailles-provided cheat sheet is utterly and totally misleading, as is almost always the case with anything from Versailles.

Now, switching gears to put it in down and dirty terms: if labor gets shafted on EFCA, the Dems who shafted them are going to have a very hard time getting re-elected.  In fact, they might as well start thinking about doing a reverse Arlen Specter.  It is not going to be pretty.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Given Obama's demonstrated propensity (4.00 / 1)
for apologetically (but still peremptorily) shoving a shit-encrusted thumb in the eye of the 'progressive' wing of his base, how do 'we' imagine 'we'll' be able to direct him to take tougher, more principled stands on issues of importance in tyerms of equity and social justice?

just askin...

permit me to repeat a line i've uttered here and elsewhere for over a year: If Obama had EVER posed the faintest, slightes, remotest scintilla of a threat to the status quo, he'd not be in the position he is now...


You And lord_mike Should Argue With One Another (4.00 / 1)
I'll take the winner.

Scouts' honor!

(Specially since neither of you has addressed my argument, but instead merely restated your own positions.)

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I disagree... (4.00 / 1)
...I believe that konopelli is basically telling you that he agrees with the 2nd listed argument in your post.

And that is where I find myself.  I was asking of others a year and a half ago on Sirota's previous blog for any strong argument on why people believed that Obama would be a progressive populist in office.  I really never saw a strong argument for that, other than their hopes.

In fact it amazed me how people transferred their own beliefs and hopes on to Obama (which is probably an important talent for politicians to have).  I remember thinking to myself there are going to be a lot of disappointed progressives and populists if he gets elected.

On the other hand I do notice that he is more popular with centrists and center right people than I thought possible.  And electorally that is probably a more important group, since progressive populists really have not other place to go, other than a 3rd party.

Regards,

Never before in all our history have these forces been so united against one candidate as they stand today. They are unanimous in their hate for me-and I welcome their hatred. - FDR


[ Parent ]
Well, Sure (0.00 / 0)
And lord_mike is taking the first one.  I think they're both based on a narrow-minded view of things.  There are good arguments for each position, but they tend to ignore or reflexively dismiss the arguments of the other side that would lead to a more nuanced view.  And I'm saying that a more nuanced view is called for, but that it still indicates Obama has fallen far short, even on his own terms.  And I'm suggesting a general course of action that tries to take all of that into account.

Which is why I don't want to waste my stime and enegry arguing with pure adherents of either (1) or (2).  It's not that I think they don't have some good arguments.  I absolutely believe that they do.  It's that I don't think they've integrated a well-rounded perspective that gives other perspectives their due.

Shifting gears now, what you're leaving out of this equation:

On the other hand I do notice that he is more popular with centrists and center right people than I thought possible.  And electorally that is probably a more important group, since progressive populists really have not other place to go, other than a 3rd party.

are two things.  One is that economic populism has strong support across the political spectrum, particular in a recession, and hence Obama's resistence to it is sooner or later going to exact a toll, unless he changes course.  Second is that a lot of what progressive populists are looking for is not just a matter of our preferences.  It's a matter of survival--be it a worable health care system, a viable economic recovery, or a habitable planet.  So it's not our electoral clout or lack of same that's the primary factor here.  It's the real-world consequences of mistakenly thinking that it's only a mater of our electoral clout or lack of same.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I Will Be Listing Some Disagreements With Hopes Of Understanding Where We Can Go (4.00 / 2)
1.
He's done this most notably on the stimulus, reducing its size and effectiveness in a fruitless effort to gain more GOP support, on the issue of torture, where a clear majority of American people wants either criminal or general fact-finding investigations.

    One would think that reaching out to Republicans on the stimulus would not be such a poor decision:  The Republicans had lost big in 2006 and further more in 2008.  As Obama has explicitly stated, he erred, did not demand a bigger stimulus package to go the bargaining table with.  In the midst of that "lost opportunity", a large majority of people feel that the Republicans acted as obstructionists, pertaining to the stimulus. And Obama gained higher approval levels and more political capital in regards to the economy as a whole.  (How much he has squandered regarding the the bank and financial mess is yet to be determined.)

    As far as torture goes, a clear majority do not want either criminal investigations and prosecutions.  As far as as fact-finding commissions/investigations still has a majority, though slim.  Now whether or not this is due to Obama's lack of leadership on this matter is possible. Yet, I do not think so.

    However, as polls show more and more people now equate Obama to socialism--close to 20%--still shows the right's strength to indoctrinate through their powerful propaganda machine.  I say this, because no issue in a long time would bring out the circus, as much as torture investigations.  [(An aside, I think that you cherry-picked Danner's words last week on this issue.  Argue his premise for a lackluster commission or his lack of "back-bone" to investigate.  It's a cheap shot to call Danner "the suppposed liberal on the panel"--paraphrasing.  (I do know you have argued his and others stance on this issue.)  Yet, to make it out that Danner is rudderless on torture proceedings is unfair.  If my recollection serves correct, Danner has been an important investigative reporter, thinker, and voice on this issue; he broke a lot of news on this issue.

    I mention the aforementioned paragraph, to question if Obama's leadership on this issue would have further strengthened the position to investigate matters of torture.  On the contrary, I think Obama was and is the wrong person to advance this issue.  I think members of Congress pushing the Justice Department would be the more tenable route.  Now, if you want to say Obama is pushing Holder away that is a fair argument, but Obama does not have the last word.  As awful, as unlawful, as immoral the entire torture debable played out in the upper echelons of our government. . . unfornutately, an investigation and prosecutions would become a minor civil war. Nothing would impassion the right as matters of supposed "national defense".  I wonder if one of Cheney's goons released the memo of Pelosi yesterday.  (I believe Sey Hersh's reporting on Cheney planting his people in high positions in our huge intelligence apparatus 100%.) Is torture going away? No.  Why not take it up when the GOP and the conservative movement is even more weakened (Chris and others show pickups for Democrats over the next 4 years--hopefully with more progressive leaders)?  

    I know, a few answers you may fire back: a.) we are a nation of laws  b.) torture will still go on  c.) Obama is culpable if he does not pursue  d.) It weakens our moral and constitional fabric as a people, nation

     Note:  Wellstone's job was to play defense; did he get more than 1 bill passed in his career?  Not a knock, just a question.  It is much different to govern as an executive, especially of this nation.

 


this is not the 90s. (4.00 / 4)
Moderation for moderation's sake is not a virtue in this political climate.

And there is no way around it; the rot at the heart of the Republic must be confronted.

Bill Clinton agreed to not pursue investigations into Iran-Contra; that sowed the seeds for the resurgence of the neocons and their lawless policies.

Now torture has become the policy of the US government. If the perpetrators are allowed to go unpunished this time, they will return in eight, or possibly even four years. They will pick up where Bush/Cheney left off. And next time they will not stop at torturing suspected terrorists, but will do it to all their opposition.

Right now there is nothing save Obama's good will that prevents the president from throwing you into Bagram prison and declaring you outside the bounds of the Geneva conventions. That is a precarious state of affairs, because 1) Obama won't be president forever and 2) Obama's good will may change, if there's another terrorist attack or national emergency.


[ Parent ]
Clearing Things Up (4.00 / 5)
It's refreshing to see someone actually responding to my argument, rather than just seeing this as an opportunity to restate their pre-determined position.  Unfortunately, I think there's considerable confusion here, which I'll try to clean up.

(1) On the stimulus: My point was that Obama didn't deliver either what was wanted or needed.  The fact that he gained political capital as a result of GOP folly would be a hell of a lot more relevant if it weren't the case that so much human suffering--and potential future disaster--was the price to be paid for it.  Versailles cares mightily about the political capital side of things.  But meanwhile thousands of teachers are being laid off, medical care is being cut back, all sorts of ordinary people are suffering needlessly.  Call me funny, but I like to keep the real world in mind.

(2) I wrote:

[A]

a clear majority of American people wants either criminal or general fact-finding investigations.

You wrote:

[B]

a clear majority do not want either criminal investigations and prosecutions

You see how [B] is not a refutation of [A]?

It's quite natural and expected that a majority doesn't want criminal investigations when they're still largely ignorant of what actually went on.  It took over a year of Watergrate investigations before the public really started to get very clear that criminal conduct was involved, not just at the street level, but all the way up.

(3) Obama and socialism 20%?  Not impressed.  The hard-core GOP base is around 25%.  They will believe anything their masters tell them.

I say this, because no issue in a long time would bring out the circus, as much as torture investigations.

Which is why you do it right.  Create an impeccable process, and let the GOP base further alienate itself from the mainstream.  Torture investigations are not something Obama should do, they are something he should  allow to proceed in accordance with our own legal obligations.  Obstruction of justice should not be an option.

(4) You've completely misunderstood what I was saying about Danner.  I have no beef with him at all, and think he's done really great work.  Rather, my remarks were meant as commentary on the construction of the discourse about ideology.

(5)

Now, if you want to say Obama is pushing Holder away that is a fair argument, but Obama does not have the last word.

Actually, Obama took an oath of office to make sure that the laws are faithfully executed.  It's his job to make sure that we abide by our treaty obligations prohibiting torture.  Even though Holder is the constitutional officer charged with the front-line responsibility, if he should fail to discharge his duty on such a fundamental issue, it's Obama's responsibility to replace him with someone who will discharge his duty.

There are plenty of cases--the vast majority of them--in which there is reasonable cause for the Attorney General to be left alone to exercise his own discretion.  But this is not one of them.

As I stated above, this isn't a call for Obama to get his hands dirty.  It's a call for him to ensure that a credible process is put in place, and then given all the resources and cooperation necessary to do its job.

This is what I'm calling for, and you simply follow the hegemonic discourse by failing to even consider it as a serious possibility.

(6) You really have no idea who Paul Wellstone was.  None whatsoever.  He didn't just get bill passed, he got bills passed with GOP cosponsorship.

Guy could not just walk and chew gum, he could wrestle and blow bubbles.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Thanks For The Exchange (4.00 / 2)
1.  I agree with your sentiments regarding the stimulus.  I just don't know, however well he played his hand that he have gotten 3x--or close to--the amount which a lot of economists that I admire wanted.  Again, if you said, "Jason, tomorrow, we are going to have a social market economy, I would be thrilled!"
    Remember Paul, "conservative" and "moderate" Democrats would have been skittish, with asshole Ben Nelson leading the charge. Alas, it would have still been watered down with too many tax cuts--relative to size to get 60 votes.  (Please, do not garner from one sentence that I think that "the end justifies the means", via political capital.  I think this rotten capitalist system is causing too much harm.  I know it personally to well.  That said, Obama trusted the Congress too much in the stimulus process.  Maybe, he needed to be more confrontational.)

2. Nixon was unpopular President; the Vietnam War was crushing the soul of this country.  Obama does not suffer either these fates.  Sure, Iraq is unpopular, but no one pins it on the Obama administration. Unless, he handles the Af-Pak war incompetently with its foolish mission--which I believe it will occur--though in that instance, I don't the people will stand for it.  Nor do I think Obama has much willingness for this war, as he leads on.  "I listened to his soul." lol  Truly, I think this will be his JFK moment; unfortunately, I hope not too late.
  Yet, it was a different media environment during Nixon's tenure.  Actually the MSM was more liberal, and their was a anti-government/anti-authoritative atmoshphere that was more palpable.  Bush and Co. leave, and the air is let out of the balloon.  Any at rate, I hope investigations do happen.

3. I figured you shoot back that answer, pertaining to the hard-core right. Threw it out though, to show how a small percentage, especially in Babylone can create hell. D.C. is another animal.

 

Which is why you do it right.  Create an impeccable process, and let the GOP base further alienate itself from the mainstream. Torture investigations are not something Obama should do, they are something he should  allow to proceed in accordance with our own legal obligations.  Obstruction of justice should not be an option.

  I agree with everything I emboldened.  Yet, I am faint at heart maybe, because I do not think it can be done right. Our government is broken; it is incompetent. And look how the MSM handled the Swine Flu.  It will be National Security, Christians, dedicated soldiers, CIA officials, FBI agents versus civil liberty fundamentalists and Arab and Muslim supporters. That's how the MSM will play this tune! NATIONAL SECURITY vs CIVIL RIGHT FUNDAMENTALISTS!
   Though, if more and more ex-CIA, FBI, and military officials keeping coming out, then I think we have a better story. Let's the spigots keep pouring it out.

4.  Ok, I got you on Danner.

5.  I agree with much on what you wrote on #5, and I allow the possibility--albeit the I think the conservative hegemonic structures are still very strong.

6.  Whoa!!  Sorry, to insult the late great Paul Wellstone, sincerly.  Actually, I just book a handful of books about him, and a couple by him.  I admire the man a great deal.  I love the training organization they set up in his name--his family and friends.

7.  Lastly, I want a health-care reform, a renewable energy program, the end of both wars sooner than later, a strongly regulated Wall St. and ECFA passed.  The last one is impossible until the next Congress, even is Obama made it his number issue. I sorry, I cannot see it.

PS  I have no idea why from #3 down, my comments are in the Quote section.  Unbelievable.  I suck at the use of computers.



[ Parent ]
A Few Replies (4.00 / 5)
[New numbering system, sorry.]

(1) Easy ones first: you didn't close the blockquote.  Just select the text you want to enclose in the quote and click on the "Quote" button at the bottom of the input area.  No techie knowledge required!

(2) The stimulus battle could have and should have been open and shut.  The natural allies were the state legislatures, which have constituents in genuine, deep pain, and for them federal stimulus money is manna from heaven.  You go to them, and to the local officials and service providers who are depending on them.  Any time anyone in the Senate starts talking about cutting spending, you ask, "Why does Senator So-And-So hate school children?"  And you don't stop asking until they turn tail.

The failure to pursue this obvious line of attack is proof positive of enormous political stupidity.

(3) The Nixon/Obama comparison is totally off the mark.  I wasn't making any such argument.  The issue was simply about what it takes for people to think that criminal investigations are warranted.  And the point is that it generlly takes a significant running start with non-criminal investigations first, before a solid majority wants criminal investigations.  That's the only argument I was making.

(4) It can be done right.  You're confusing two different questions--doing it right vs. taking on the larger dysfunction of Versailles. And my answer is that doing it right will help in the effort to start rolling back the dysfunction of Versailles.  You don't want partisans involved in this process.  You want career investigators.  You want professionals.  You let them do their jobs, and let their work speak for itself.

(5) EFCA is quite doable, if Obama wants to go out there and start twisting some arms.  It would be a very smart move for him in terms of strengthening his long-term relationship with labor. He's not always going to have such high approval ratings, and having them ready to get his back when the going gets tough would just be common sense in the most basic politics 101 sense.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
(6) (4.00 / 1)
some people don't fit into the little categories that you create.  

John McCain: Beacuse lobbyists should have more power

I HARDLY Pretended To Characterize Everyone (4.00 / 1)
These are common positions that tend to at least partially define somewhat intractable extremes that tend to block more wide-ranging debate.

The folks who don't fit into them may not need to read or consider my arguments at all--at least for themselves.

But it's my hope that they will find it useful in dealing with those who do fit in these categories, or those who take the resulting positions too seriously.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
As in (4.00 / 3)
the following:

I think there are issues where he doesn't go far enough (globalization) or even really have a clue.  You can also believe that he is one hell of a politician.  

I keep reading how Obama is always getting rolled.
And then I remember that the stimulus package he proposed was 790, and Congress passed a stimulus package of 789.  He wanted a budget with a downpayment for health care: he got a budget with a down payment for health care.  

There are fights to come: but what I find difficult to accept is the notion that the policy choices that have been enacted are not what he wanted.  When you realize that this is the case, much of the critique here seems mistaken.  In fact, I rather suspect that the Obama people think they have been enormously successful both from a policy perspective AND a political perspective.  They have the high ratings, and their opponents are in disarray.  They have gotten most of what they wanted from Congress - not their opponents.

I don't think the Obama people would accept the core of the argument being made here.  


[ Parent ]
I'm Quite Sure Obama's People Are Pleased As Punch (4.00 / 2)
After all, Obama's people are part of the problem, defining his goals much as you have done.  But those aren't the goals as Obama communicated them to David in that 2006 interview, and as many people still persist in reading into his actions.

If we didn't face a systemic healthcare crisis, the biggest recession since the 1930s, the longterm decline of the American economy, and the unprecedented threat of global warming, then I'd agree that Obama's short-term political success was all that really mattered, and that it was just too bad if folks like me weren't happy.

But that's not the world we live in.  And above all, Obama's original promise was that he was someone who was uniquely aware of that.

Now, it seems, not so much.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Hanson is great. (0.00 / 0)
I took a number of classes with him in law school and still consider him a huge influence on my thinking and career. Really great guy too. His stuff (which is kind of like behavioral economics on steroids) is really powerful, and draws on a wide variety of social psychological phenomenon that has been studied by researchers in psychology for years, but has largely been ignored by legal academics and economists.

Well, I Hope You'll Stick Around And Help Me Out (0.00 / 0)
As I intend to discuss his work in one or diaries later this weekend.  I've only just now discovered his work.  It crosses some familiar territory, but he makes his own connections, and covers some territory that's new to me as well.  So I'd really appreciate hearing from someone with more intimate knowledge.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
A little bit on Hanson (4.00 / 2)
Yeah, absolutely.

Hanson started off as a kind of center-left law and econ professor in the mold of Guido Calabresi (who he was also a research assistant for at one point).  He had some pretty powerful and original leftist law and economics arguments, especially focusing on arguments for why tort law should be used for insurance, not just deterrence (which is still the position of the mainstream center-right/libertarian law and econ cadre).  He also worked a lot with behavioral economics along with others like Christine Jolls and Cass Sunstein. After he got tenure at HLS he began to move more and more to the left as his work delved into socio-psychology and people like Zimbardo, Milgrim, and other theorists. He began to see the behavioral economics of people like Jolls and Sunstein (and as I'm sure you know, many of Obama's advisors) was just scratching the surface of the ways that people are really motivated.  So he began writing about things like how we (i.e., humans) view such concepts as causation, control, responsibility, blame, and especially choice, and how those conceptions shape our views of morality, politics and law.
He is also very interested in corporate law, media and advertising, and the way we that we see certain things as being "caused" by individuals and their inherent characteristics (what he terms "dispositionism") versus the more subtle, but usually more powerful situational effects (such as cognitive biases, power, our upbringing, our family, socio-economic class and group dynamics).  This is really just scratching the surface of Hanson's work and it is really worth reading some of his articles.  A good start would be:

(1) "The Situational Character: A Critical Realist Perspective on the Human Animal," 93 Georgetown Law Journal 1 (2004).

and

(2)"The Situation: An Introduction to the Situational Character, Critical Realism, Power Economics, and Deep Capture," 152 University of Pennsylvania Law Review 129 (2003).

(1) deals with the social psychology research from which he draws much of his inspiration for critiquing the law and society.  (2) looks as the effects of law and economics, advertising, and especially the amassing of wealth by corporations, which he argues have further increased our already somewhat "natural" human tendency to miss the power of the situation.  


[ Parent ]
Thanks (0.00 / 0)
I've read the first 35 pages or so of (2) as well as the conclusion, with some skimming in between.  Plan to read the whole thing next week.  I've got 4 or 5 others downloaded as well.

His work intersects with others in interesting ways.  Altemeyer, for one, in his research into rightwing authoritarianism deals with the funadamental attribution error, and different permutations of Milgram's experiment.  But perhaps most directly related to what I've read of Hanson so far is simply that Altemeyer says flat out that even though he's spent his life researching RWA, which is a dispositional variable par excellence, the influence of RWA pales in comparison to possible environmental factors--such as 9/11, for example. (Though he used an earlier Canadian example when making the point well before 9/11 happened.)

So I'm definitely interested in reading more.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I love the comparison between JFK and Obama! (4.00 / 1)
"... I've repeatedly said that he reminds me of JFK."

Remember when Obama towed one of his shipmates 9 miles through the Pacific Ocean, with the strap of a life-jacket between his teeth, just like Jack Kennedy?

And that was after both Obama and JFK had sustained severe back injuries that haunted them for the rest of their lives!

How could two honchos possibly be more alike?

So when Paul Rosenberg talks about "JFK's relatively timid disposition," he probably means "timid" as in towing one guy to a nearby island, and then swimming back to the wreckage of his PT boat to rescue a second shipmate, with Japanese destroyers sailing around in the same water.

Exactly like Obama!

But lots of us can't see any any resemblance whatsoever between the war-hero and playboy Jack Kennedy, and the chicken-hearted con-man Barack Obama, and that's why we need a genius like Paul Rosenberg to share his deep psychological insights with us!

Harharharhar!!!


Your Self-Parody Is ALWAYS Welcome, Jacob (0.00 / 0)
You're your own Steven Colbert!

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Obama and George W. Bush! I love those chicken-hawks! (0.00 / 0)
Now we have another President who's happy to send tens of thousands of our brave soldiers to fight and die in Afghanistan, but never went anywhere near a combat zone himself.

And so what?

"War" is just a word for the Paul Rosenberg and most of the suckers who elected Obama.

But it isn't just a word for the 147 Afghans who were murdered by Obama last week, and "murder" is exactly the right word.

The rules of engagement in Afghanistan are absolutely under the control of the President of the United States, and when those rules of engagement allow bombing from the stratosphere based on always questionable intelligence...

Then it's ridiculous to claim that the death of 147 Afghan non-combatants was an accident.

It was the obviously foreseeable outcome of the rules of engagement, and responsibility for those rules of engagement belongs to Barack Obama and nobody else.

So now we have another President who just happens to be...

A coward and murderer.

And so what?

"War" is just a word for Paul Rosenberg and most of the suckers who elected Obama.


[ Parent ]
OK, I'll bite (0.00 / 0)
How many Vietnamese did Kennedy "murder"? More or less than 147?

Also, do you really think it makes a lick of sense to compare Kennedy's heroism in the Navy, with his own behavior as a political leader (much less that of the current President)? If you really want to go for a non-sensical comparison, why not compare Kennedy as a swimmer against Obama as a swimmer?

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[ Parent ]
I really don't care (0.00 / 0)
about Obama's inner thoughts, nor his motives. What I care about are his actions. And so far, his actions do not remotely approach what this country needs. And in fact, many of his actions are digging us even deeper into ruin as a prosperous and free nation.

2 cents: (0.00 / 0)
i agree with you about the stimulus -- he should have pressed for more from the get-go.  however, we will never know what the conservadems in the senate would have done, and whether there was a chance that the whole thing could have been blown up, and that we might have ended up with a worse result.  i happen to think this likely wouldn't have happened, but history being irreversible, we will never know.

i'm not convinced that the WH isn't working to pass EFCA behind the scenes.  this may very well have been part of what motivated them to embrace Specter so effusively (knowing that, in whatever form the bill was passed, Specter would have to vote for cloture).  also, and most importantly, we've been hearing some glimmers of hope on EFCA in the last couple of days, so I wouldn't count this as a failure yet (nor am i sanguine about its prospects, or about the WH's commitment to the bill -- i am just unsure at this point of what is happening, or what the future will hold).    

in terms of torture, again, i don't see the WH as having foreclosed the possibility of further action, and i'm not entirely clear on what they might be doing on this issue behind the scenes.  clearly, obama is not willing to spend the first summer of his presidency carrying out and defending a decision to pursue prosecutions of Bush admin officials. instead, it seems that he wants to spend the summer on healthcare, above all else.  if no torture hearings or prosecutions occur, and if there are no steps taken to render it more difficult for a torture regime to be instituted in the future, i will be quite disappointed, even fearful for the future.    

on the healthcare front, i'm quite pleased that obama spoke in favor of the public plan in his most recent press conference.  i'm also glad that democrats in the senate are talking about how to do the public plan, not whether to do it.  this is going to be a huge fight, and i'm moderately pleasantly surprised about how its opening rounds have been playing out.  but again, much is unknown at this point.  

don't get me wrong, i am not wholly satisfied, by any stretch of the imagination, with obama's first few months in office.  i'm actually most disappointed with his 'afpak' policy.  but i think where i differ from you is that i don't think what has happened / what will happen is quite as clear as you seem to.  there is much that remains open -- which is all the more reason for us to work to change the landscape.      


I Would Merely Observe (4.00 / 1)
That you're reading a good deal into very ambiguous circumstances.

And that doesn't exactly strike me as what leadership looks like.  Murkiness and ambiguity come from lack of leadership, at least where I come from.

Unless, of course, we're talking art, not politics.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
i suppose i see politics as more of an art, especially (0.00 / 0)
the politics performed by the white house.  

that said, i greatly respect your piece, and saw my response not so much as a counter to it, but as a slightly different 'reading' of what has been happening.

i'm curious though -- what do you find least plausible in my post?


[ Parent ]
It's Not About Plausibility (4.00 / 2)
I want to shift attention away from the question of plausibility.  It may all be quite plausible.  But what's needed, IMHO, is not plausible developments, solutions or programs.  We need declarative commitments.  And on that score, we've gotten very small beer, I'd have to say.

We will not torture.  Well, that's nice.  Unless, of course, another Republican is elected.  Because there's absolutely no consequences for torture, and Republicans will pretty much always do anything they can get away with.

And so it goes.

What I meant by my remark about art is that ambiguity in art is often a very good thing.  It's often central to making works rich and complex.  But that's really the last thing one wants in good politics.  One wants things to be crystal clear.  Liberty and justice for all, that kind of thing.  The whole 3/5ths of a person thing really doesn't cut it.

Of course, compromise and ambiguity are often forced upon us, but they are not, generally, things we ought to seek.

It's very different in art.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
3/5ths of a human being is quite clear. what is less clear than numbers? (0.00 / 0)
i'm not sure if 'clarity' is a great standard, especially since many events don't reveal their true significance until years after they happen.  how many people realized how transformative reagan would be in 1980?  many other examples could be drawn upon from history, but i feel like reagan's first election is a good parallel.

to clarify what i see as our disagreement: i don't think that obama should not be embracing substantively more progressive positions, with much more regularity.  but i do think that finesse, behind-the-scenes negotiations, and a willingness to bide one's time are not necessarily objectionable qualities.  they have their place too.  and no, these practices don't enable too much clarity about what is happening, but that doesn't mean that nothing is happening.  hence, we shouldn't assume that something isn't happening because it's not being loudly broadcast in black and white terms.  but we also shouldn't assume it is....

i agree with you about the importance of holding torturers accountable -- i think i made this quite clear in my first post.  my point was simply that the possibility of holding them accountable has not been foreclosed by the WH.  

activists, on the other hand, should deal in definitive goals and principles.  we are in agreement on that much.      


[ Parent ]
So Much Confusion! (0.00 / 0)
Re: The "clarity" of numbers, see: How To Lie With Statistics.

Re: Reagan's election in 1980. Reagan was quite clear, thank you.  Very clear, and very wrong.  He embraced substantively reactionary positions without equivocation, even when forced to compromise.  Nothing remotely like Obama.  Of course, he moved to the left--particularly on foreign policy--after Iran/Contra was revealed and his approval ratings tanked.  But that was much later in the game.

Re: doing things behind the scenes:  Obama is undercutting progressive goals behind the scenes.  See, for example, his dropping the ball on cramdown. David's written about it, and even more details have come out since he first wrote about it.  It's now abundantly clear that Obama's behind-the-scenes moves helped defeat cramdown, despite the fact that Obama owes Durbin big-time.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
i think we are talking past each other, here (0.00 / 0)
my point about reagan was that the effects he had on the shape of the national budget weren't clear in his first 100 days -- he had a multi-step plan to shift the budget radically to the right, and he didn't necessarily broadcast the plan in the first 100 days.  a lot of what he did was done under the radar of most people.  

re: cramdown -- yes, the WH dropped the ball.  do you have links to show how its "abundantly clear" that Obama "helped defeat cramdown"?  my read of the situation was that he didn't fight hard with the conservadems on this issue (even as he played hardball on the student loan debate).  so, he largely abandons some issues while fighting on others... he should fight on more, i would agree with you, but to imply that all of his behind the scenes activities serve to undercut progressive goals is disingenuous, at best.

about articulating progressive principles -- his pseudo-SOTU was quite substantively progressive, not to mention incredibly savvy (as he had republicans applauding regulation of the banks by the end).  i would propose that speech as the prime reference point for any conversations about obama's explicitly articulated goals and principles.    


[ Parent ]
Replies (0.00 / 0)
(1) Reagan's intentions were clear from Day 1.  There was all sort of deceptive blather, but what else do you expect from a conservative?  If they tell you what they really want, no one will vote for them.

(2) From the Washington Independent:

White House Silence Paved Way for 'Cramdown' Crash
Reluctance to Spend Political Capital Doomed Bankruptcy Reforms

By Mike Lillis 5/7/09 5:12 PM

Though mortgage bankruptcy reform has been a central component of the Obama administration's foreclosure prevention strategy, the White House all but abandoned the proposal in the days leading up to last week's Senate vote, providing some Democrats with the political cover to kill the bill and leaving supporters scratching their heads in wonder why the administration didn't push harder for passage.

The proposal, sponsored by Sen. Richard Durbin (D-Ill.), would have empowered bankruptcy judges to reduce, or "cramdown," the terms of primary mortgages, allowing some struggling homeowners to avoid foreclosure. Obama supported the measure on the campaign trail last year, and endorsed it again in February as he unveiled his anti-foreclosure plan.

Yet in the days before Thursday's Senate vote, the silence emanating from the White House was palpable. Unlike Obama's high-profile support for legislation to reform the credit card industry, the president made no public statements on cramdown, nor did he pressure Democratic lawmakers to support the bill.

"When the time came to stand up to the banking lobbies and cajole yes votes from reluctant senators - the White House didn't," The New York Times wrote in a biting editorial Monday.

The administrative hush led some lawmakers to believe that issue was no longer a priority for the White House. Indeed, a spokesperson for Sen. Michael Bennet (D-Colo.) - who opposed the proposal, saying it was too broad and would have raised interest rates - told The Denver Post that a "no" vote was not inconsistent with Obama's position.

That sentiment allowed on-the-fence Democrats to oppose the measure without being perceived as defying the White House. Indeed, the measure failed 45 to 51 - 15 votes shy of defeating the GOP filibuster - with 12 Democrats joining every Republican to kill the bill.

(3) Actions speak louder than words.  

And with Obama, the best words come on special occassions, when the everydaty woerds would have much greater consequences.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
as an artist... (0.00 / 0)
I'd have to say that ambiguity isn't necessarily a goal in art and could be (and many times is) a detriment to a finished work. For most contemporary artists, once you know their process and interests, there can be very little ambiguity.  

[ Parent ]
No One Could Have Foreseen Endless Confusion Over Ambiguity (0.00 / 0)
Silly me!  Seven Types of Ambiguity warped me at an early age.

Truth is, however, what was probably foremost in my mind was the season (hopefully not series) finale of Dollhouse*, echoing themes that ran throughout Angel, which in turn was a classic contemporary updating of the noir tradition.

Moral ambiguity, epistemic ambiguity, ontological ambiguity, you name it, we got it.  (I managed to get one article about Buffy past my publisher at Random Lengths [if only his daughter had been in charge!]  Title: "Buffy The Moral Clarity Slayer"  Key line [from memory, my mileage may vary]: "'Moral clarity' must die that moral clarity may live.")

* A wee bit of bantering moral clarity from the finale, via Heather Havrilesky:

"We're not just humans anymore," Alpha urges her, on a break between body blows. "We're not multiple personalities. We're many personalities!"

"We're not gods," Echo snaps.

"Fine, Ubermensch. Nietzsche predicted our rise. Perfected, objective, something new," says Alpha.

"Right, new superior people, with a little German thrown in," she snaps back. "What could possibly go wrong?"



"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Paul, true - but (4.00 / 1)
what looks like lack of leadership may come in time to be evaluated differently.

One thing that keeps me a vacillator is my reading of Lincoln history.  Lincoln was roundly excoriated in terms much harsher than anything seen here, by politicians and agitators, some of whose status has grown over the years but mostly by people now seen as lightweights.  (Like Chase, for example, who did have a following at the time).  And when it was all said and done, Lincoln was later perceived as having been leading in ways that weren't perceived at the time.

If Obama can deliver on at least one of the big tickets that he's said he's for, his leadership may come to be viewed as inspired.

My biggest problem isn't even with Obama, per se, as it is with the whole political culture.  Too much of the progressive side of politics seems to be happy wrapping itself up in the tales of Republican death-march regularly peddled on Olbermann and Maddow.  And our congress-critters still seem largely to have the courage of mice.

I see the Republicans seeming to be just plain happier than Democrats right now.  They seem to be waiting for a Democratic failure after which all their clowning will be forgotten as they say "I told you so."  Republicans are MUCH more adept at making political points than Democrats for digestion by those of low information.  We don't have any good fire-breathers, who could get up there and make fun of Republicans arguing, say, "They say they're for competition in health care, but not from the government.  We say, we're for whatever works, and if government can provide better health insurance than the claim-denial industry that everyone knows the private sector has provided, let's have that competition!"

Obama shouldn't have to do this all by himself, maybe can't and maybe doesn't want to.  But where is the REST of our political class?

sTiVo's rule: Just because YOU "wouldn't put it past 'em" doesn't prove that THEY did it.


[ Parent ]
Yes And No (4.00 / 1)
I totally agree with you on what the Democrats lack.  And while I agree wholeheartedly that Obama should not be doing it all, he should be doing some of it, since he's the man with the bully pulpit, and he's pretty much not.

Where I really disagree, however, is with the Lincoln analogy, and for a very simple reason: Lincoln, basically, "only" had one mega-problem. It had plenty of facets, but still, win the war, that was it.  Ending slavery came out of that organically.  Sure, other important stuff got done--the railroads and land grant colleges, for exmple.  But if they hadn't gotten done then, Lincoln's stature wouldn't have been dramatically different in the eyes of history.

Obama, though, has at least four biggies--the recession (biggest since the Great Depression), the wars, health care and global warming.  Delivering on just one won't be enough.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
My point about Lincoln (4.00 / 1)
went to the question of what leadership is and what it isn't.  Lincoln did not lead by enunciating clear positions on the issues of the day.  He was quite rather opaque and routinely underestimated.  You want clear moral leadership here's William Lloyd Garrison on slavery:

I will be as harsh as truth, and uncompromising as justice... I am in earnest, I will not equivocate, I will not excuse, I will not retreat a single inch, and I will be heard.

Lincoln's words on slavery were considerably less transparent than that:

If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union.

But all the Garrisons in America could not free the slaves.  A Lincoln was needed.  A month after that quotation, he issued the Emancipation Proclamation.  And he made that speech after he had notified his cabinet of his intent to issue the proclamation.  Clear as a bell, no it wasn't.  It was a deeply political speech.  He knew how to bob and weave.

As you write, Obama is presented with more tasks than Lincoln had (but that one was quite a task, as I'm sure you'd agree).  Obama MAY be prioritizing, focusing most intently on one thing at at time (perhaps at the expense of others).  I don't know.

That's my optimistic scenario.  It may be too optimistic.  but I'm not ready to completely dismiss it yet.  And whether it comes about or not is not entirely in the hands of Barack Obama.  The progressive community and what they can organize will have a big say and responsibility in the matter as well, as do the American people as a whole.  

sTiVo's rule: Just because YOU "wouldn't put it past 'em" doesn't prove that THEY did it.


[ Parent ]
And My Point (0.00 / 0)
is that Lincoln succeeded in that context, because the issue of preserving the Union and winning the war was paramount, and the abolition of slavery became inevitably crucial to that end.

Had there been more than one paramount challenge, then we would have seen if Lincoln's style would have succeeded as well--or, if, perhaps, his style might have changed somewhat.

Don't forget, it was Garrison--working for decades--who helped make Lincoln possible.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I'm not forgetting Garrison's contribution (0.00 / 0)
not at all.

But there is a reason why William Garrison (and Paul Rosenberg) never became President.  Understanding that does not diminish their role in the least.  It was and is an important role.  If I didn't believe that, I wouldn't be wasting my time on Open Left.

sTiVo's rule: Just because YOU "wouldn't put it past 'em" doesn't prove that THEY did it.


[ Parent ]
Also, I don't necessarily believe Lincoln (0.00 / 0)
when he claimed to be only interested in saving the union and that slavery was a matter of little concern to him.  There is much in his early writing to suggest that he deeply cared about slavery and quite a bit to suggest that his professed indifference was a political pose.

His timing on the Emancipation Proclamation was profoundly political.  Had he issued it immediately, when the Abolitionists wished him to, he would have provoked great anger in the North which did not want to be seen as fighting a war FOR Abolition.  As it was, there was quite enough of this "Copperhead" sentiment when he did issue the proclamation and even before.  But he certainly looked for the optimum time to do so.

Whether that was his intention all along is hard to gauge.  He probably would have been satisfied with stopping the spread of slavery and its eventual elimination, or with compensated emancipation or any of those other halfway measures if he could have gotten them.

sTiVo's rule: Just because YOU "wouldn't put it past 'em" doesn't prove that THEY did it.


[ Parent ]
Yes And No (0.00 / 0)
I totally agree with you on what the Democrats lack.  And while I agree wholeheartedly that Obama should not be doing it all, he should be doing some of it, since he's the man with the bully pulpit, and he's pretty much not.

Where I really disagree, however, is with the Lincoln analogy, and for a very simple reason: Lincoln, basically, "only" had one mega-problem. It had plenty of facets, but still, win the war, that was it.  Ending slavery came out of that organically.  Sure, other important stuff got done--the railroads and land grant colleges, for exmple.  But if they hadn't gotten done then, Lincoln's stature wouldn't have been dramatically different in the eyes of history.

Obama, though, has at least four biggies--the recession (biggest since the Great Depression), the wars, health care and global warming.  Delivering on just one won't be enough.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Yes And No (0.00 / 0)
I totally agree with you on what the Democrats lack.  And while I agree wholeheartedly that Obama should not be doing it all, he should be doing some of it, since he's the man with the bully pulpit, and he's pretty much not.

Where I really disagree, however, is with the Lincoln analogy, and for a very simple reason: Lincoln, basically, "only" had one mega-problem. It had plenty of facets, but still, win the war, that was it.  Ending slavery came out of that organically.  Sure, other important stuff got done--the railroads and land grant colleges, for exmple.  But if they hadn't gotten done then, Lincoln's stature wouldn't have been dramatically different in the eyes of history.

Obama, though, has at least four biggies--the recession (biggest since the Great Depression), the wars, health care and global warming.  Delivering on just one won't be enough.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Conservadems (4.00 / 1)
On the most critical issues, all Obama has to do is say to the Conservadems, "Do you want to be reelected?"

He's holding all the cards right now.  I seriously doubt that they could be reelected without his support, and even more so if he supported a primary challenger.

These are not normal times, and he has a lot of power.  He needs to use it, for all of our sakes.


[ Parent ]
Whatever the reasons, he doesn't like to fight (4.00 / 6)
Whether it comes from an innate aversion to confrontation, an acquired one in reaction to various life experiences, or a chosen one based upon his view of politics and how it's most effectively conducted in situations such as the present one, he actively tries to avoid, and certainly doesn't seek out--not directly at least--confrontation.

One could argue that this is untrue, that he is confrontational, just in a more subtle and long-term manner than many of us are used to or would prefer--i.e. the 11D chess take on his political MO, in which he passively-aggressively pretends to be non-confrontational and conciliatory while slowly goading his opponents into losing their cool and coming at him half-cocked, by actually tricking them repeatedly, at which point he can cut them down (or perhaps that's more jiu-jitsu). There are signs that he did this during the campaign, against both major opponents (but especially against Hillary).

But if so, what exactly has he done to so rattle his opponents into coming after him half-cocked, and trick them into getting more out of them than he let on? After the first few weeks of easy wins, we've seen one watered down bill after another in congress, one campaign promise after another fall by the wayside, one RW meme validated after another.

So where exactly is the trickery, the shell game, the goading, the 11D chess? I agree that it's too soon to expect major political payoff from this alleged non-confrontational confrontational strategy, as these things take time. But where's the setup? I don't see it. I hear lots of talk, but I don't see lots of action, on the political front.

Forget about motivation. I'm talking about process. How do we get from here, to where we'd like to be, policy-wise, or anywhere close to it? How do we get a viable public option that's affordable, available, has good coverage, and is properly funded? How do we get the financial system to work again without it costing taxpayers more than it should? How do we get accountability, disclosure, justice, and some measure of closure over the vast crimes of the Bush regime? What exactly has Obama done that gets us there?

I do believe, though, that at least some of this is still possible. But in my view, only if he's sufficiently pressured to do so, because left to his own devices, his tendency is usually to take the path of least resistance, to either do nothing, or do far less than is necessary and possible. And obviously, getting any of these things to happen will meet with vastly more resistance than allowing the status quo to continue, or coming up with watered down compromises. And if so, the question then becomes, how do we pressure him to go for the maximal possible solutions to these problems, and not the minimal possible ones that it's generally his tendency to persue.

By, I think, on the one hand making the paths of least or even lesser resistance, harder for him to take, and on the other hand making the path of greatest or at least greater resistance (assuming that its also the one that leads to the most desirable outcome), less resistive. I.e. make it politically harder for him to take the easy way out, and make it politically easier for him to take the harder way forward. If he's really pragmatic and not ideological, then he will always seek out the most easily achievable path that still produces something minimally acceptable. By making it harder for him to seek out the otherwise easiest or easier paths, and easier for him to seek out the otherwise hardest or harder paths, we may be able to push him in the right direction. Which is the whole point, of course, of there being a non-gratuitously adversarial element on the left, criticizing and pressuring Obama not for its own sake, but to make him be the most progressive president possible, and certainly more progressive than his natural tendencies (whatever their source) would otherwise lead to.

I.e. "make him do it", because he doesn't appear willing or eager to do it on his own.

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton


I'm Delighted with Obama (0.00 / 0)
thus far for his outstanding personal example of honesty, integrity, and openness.

He seems to be navigating the economic crisis pretty well, and the prestige of the US is soaring overseas as we have stopped torture and ended Bush's my-way-or-the-highway approaches.

Only if he drops the ball on financial system and healthcare reform will I admit to disappointment.  But give him time.

Until that happens, I am proud to be an American again.


I Wish I Were Like You (4.00 / 1)
easily amused.

Just quoting.  Nothing personal.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Principles Before Personalities. Issues Before Candidates. (4.00 / 1)
People have understandably been caught up in electoral politics because the last 8 years have been so awful.  But it's time to move back to an issues-based left.  It's easy to envision the Democrats dominating national politics for decades.  So what?  All it seems to mean is that they get more of the bribes, but not much else changes.

For example, we demand that the war in Iraq be ended, and they say "Okay, -- but not now."  We demand that the people who lied us into this international war crime of a war of aggression be prosecuted, and the people who set up a program of torture, then kidnapped, tortured, and murdered people from other countries be prosecuted.  And the Democrats say -- I don't think so.  We demand that the criminals who have looted our country be prosecuted, their assets seized, and the Democrats say -- we can't.  They give us bribes, so instead of prosecuting them, we're going to give them bonuses.  

We demand that they Democrats in Congress stop the credit card industry which is raping the public, and demand a 10% cap on interest rates, but the Democrats say no, we can't, because the credit card industry pays so much money in bribes to the Democratic politicians.  So in order to fool the public, the Democrats pass some ridiculous, pointless "consumer's rights freedom bill of credit" which does absolutely nothing to help the public.  

We need to return to an issues-based left.  I would start with the following:

1.  End the war in Iraq and Afghanistan.  Do not proceed with the pending war against Pakistan.  U.S. Out of Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan and Israel.

2.  Single-payor healthcare should be available to all Americans.  I do not want to pay one penny to an insurance company, but would gladly pay in to Medicare, since I am a working person, and get away from the insurance-based healthcare system which seems more designed to kill people than to help them.  And we need government-paid dental care too.  

3.  U.S. out of South America, Central America.  Stop propping up these right-wing dictators and instead begin to work cooperatively with our neighbors to the South, which is where our interests should be focused.

4.  End every "free trade" treaty or agreement.  Re-do the economy.  The only laws that should be passed are ones which serve the goals of getting good jobs for all Americans.  Shut down WalMart, and ship the owners to China along with the poisoned crap they keep trying to sell us.  

5.  Set a real minimum wage of $15/hour.  Demand full employment.  Every able-bodied person works.  No more of this 5% unemployment is "acceptable."  To whom?  It's not acceptable to the people who are out of work.

6.  Re-do the entire immigration system.  Nobody should be allowed to come in and take a job until all Americans are employed with good-jobs.  End the H1b visa system which lets Microsoft import contract workers from India for 6-years and pay them $11,000/year less than they pay Americans, while throwing more and more Americans out of work.

7.  Invest in small farm agriculture.  Knock down those tract homes and grow food for local consumption.  End the international trade in food completely, and most national shipping of food.  How much of global warming would be ended if we simply invested in locally-based food systems?  And help all third world countries do the same.  Grow for local consumption only.

8.  Seize the assets of every person above the level of receptionist who worked on Wall Street and in the banks during the past 10 years.  Call it fraudulent transfers, disgorgement, whatever you like, but take that money back.

9.  Seize all the money in these bogus private charities -- starting with Bill Gates, Clinton, and Buffett -- which has been stuffed away into private accounts, "charities," solely for the purpose of avoiding paying taxes owed to this country.  End the private charity scam, and seize all the assets.  We can distribute it to the poor people ourselves.

10.  2% of the people own 50% of the assets of the world.  Impose a wealth tax, and seize those assets.  Use them to redistribute to all people -- with local land purchases, farms, industry as appropriate.

11.  Pass a law giving each person who qualified a limited amount of TV, radio, print time and space to list their qualifications as a candidate for public office, then make it illegal for any candidate, politician, or family member, to accept anything of value from any person for any reason whatsoever, whether current or a promise of future consideration.  Get corruption out of politics before they kill us all.


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