Agreed of course n/t (0.00 / 0)

Can it happen here?

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by: janinsanfran @ Sat May 16, 2009 at 11:31:34 AM CDT

A rouge state (0.00 / 0)

Yep. Of course those matching cheery, powdery red spots looked better on Bush and Cheney's cheeks than they do on Obama's, especially when worn in tandem with their Republican rubber noses and that pointy hat with the bell at the end. It's only the teeth filed to a point which give the game away.

Friends keep writing me, saying what a prudent thing it was to forbid the government to release any more of those awful photographs. I write back, trying (and failing) to be polite, and tell them that the age of revelations is at hand, and that, given the limited number of fingers available, they should think seriously about whether or not they want to clap them over their eyes, or stick them in their ears.

And we thought Stephen King was the master of horror.

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by: William Timberman @ Sat May 16, 2009 at 11:42:52 AM CDT

"Secret Wars" Redux (4.00 / 1)

Remember the "secret wars" of the Reagan era?  Not secret from the people being slaughtered in them, certainly.  But most important not to talk about, anyway.

See, Obama really did admire Reagan, much more fundamentally than almost anyone seemed to guess.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

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by: Paul Rosenberg @ Sat May 16, 2009 at 12:03:38 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Eisenhower, too (0.00 / 0)

Is there something about genial old Republicans that leads them to wars all over the place on the cheap?  Some places like Lebanon got hit twice.  Eisenhower installed the Shah of Iran on the throne; Reagan avenged his ouster by arming Saddam.

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by: David Kowalski @ Sat May 16, 2009 at 17:11:14 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I usually say (4.00 / 2)

If the photos are so bad, then doing it was horrific. The world knows much more about what we have done than most Americans know about their own actions. Many Iraqi's cheered when we invaded the second time, they went ballistic when we tortured them. They know, because they were tortured. Cat's out of the bag, my fellow American idiots. /s

Hiding photos from ourselves is nothing but cowardice. Man up!

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by: Eureka Springs AR @ Sat May 16, 2009 at 13:02:33 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Good post (4.00 / 2)

Obama is like a miser hoarding his political capital and approval ratings.

Important bills like EFCA and cramdown, the banking crisis, the moral and legal crisis caused by his predecessor's war crimes: all this must not stand in the way of passing a medicore health care plan.

You get the sense he's governing the country he wished existed, as opposed to the country that actually exists, the one where Wall Street owns our government and the leaders of the previous regime belong in prison.

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by: david mizner @ Sat May 16, 2009 at 12:01:14 PM CDT

Yes, Exactly (0.00 / 0)

You get the sense he's governing the country he wished existed

He's stood Saul Alinsky on his head.  

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

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by: Paul Rosenberg @ Sat May 16, 2009 at 12:05:41 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

What is "new"? (4.00 / 1)

I don't understand why media, including bloggers on the left, are saying these are "new" revelations about torturing our way to war. Mayer's book was published last Summer, and it was based on reporting that she and others had already been doing for quite a while before the book was released. Are we suddenly just discovering all of this? It has been there for anyone who wanted to know.  

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by: DeanOR @ Sat May 16, 2009 at 12:51:24 PM CDT

There Were Gaps (0.00 / 0)

We have a great deal more detail, which makes the last shreds of plausible denial impossible to maintain.  Mayer herself seems to view things this way.

Of course, I'm one of those cranky types who still regards the Downing Street Memos as all the smoking guns we need, so I'm more in agreement with you than not.  Just trying to clarify why I wrote what I did.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

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by: Paul Rosenberg @ Sat May 16, 2009 at 13:19:05 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I suspect the main issue is that after seeing the extent (4.00 / 1)

of the torture and abuse depicted in these photos the notion of a "few bad apples" would be shattered beyond repair. The use of "enhanced interrogation" and torture by the US military, contractors, and intelligence agencies would be seen for what it is and has been: a part of the program. No aberration. Business as usual. A return to the stutus quo does not mean no more torture. It means, no more memos and no more "transparency", these acts will be confined to the dark corners and shadows, so as not to upset the American people's perception of the US military as a benevolent force for all that is good.

"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."

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by: SpitBall @ Mon May 18, 2009 at 13:09:50 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Our single greatest obsticle is still congress. (4.00 / 1)

The greatest disappointment as an ally, is still Obama, for those that had dreams about his willingness to act as we clearly see he must.

I wonder at the attacks on Pelosi, who knew some amount of the crimes being committed while she worked to end them. Rove pretends that he can shield the people he advised, who committed the crimes, by attacking the people trying to stop them, for not working hard enough.

Obama thinks too much, or it seems so to me. But he also thinks enough, and very well. He stifles change with compromise, because he thinks he has to. Paul is correct, that because this cat, this feral mangy cat, is out of the bag. The previous administration acted in ways so foul that not dealing with them, not prosecuting them, does exactly as Paul says, it places the country in such a place that we can never have allies again. Or at least no allies of principle. We will only ever be seen as a country that betrays its honor unless it exposes and admits to the Bush Cheney crimes.

I am sure Obama would have preferrd to avoid this, so as creat the changes that make Democracy and progress take deep rooot in America before it turned to its contradictions.

This will not be an easy struggle. It cant be avoided any longer. I might have wished for a few months more. But now is the time to work to apply what changes can be made with out compromise.

Events have overtaken us. Change without compromise is upon us.

Change
"We must break up the banks and never again let them get so big that they distort our politics and take down the economy.

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by: HousesofProgress @ Sat May 16, 2009 at 12:54:14 PM CDT

I'd suggest that the single greatest obstacle (4.00 / 1)

is the general perception on the part of the US populace that torture and abuse of our "enemies" was some kind of strange aberration of the Bush years.


"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."

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by: SpitBall @ Mon May 18, 2009 at 13:13:09 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Unrecognizable America (4.00 / 1)

The degradation of our national culture, induced largely by corporate media and corporate takeover of government, has made my country unrecognizable to me. Torture condoned, night and day, on every channel of the news, every headline celebrating any minimal continuation of Bush's horrendous policies. Policies designed, of course, to mask weakness and cowardice on both their parts, the media and the corporate puppetmasters.

If Cheney ordered all torture, it show that the corporate culture he was also steeped in framed all problems along the lines of the old ' kill 'em all, let Gd sort them out.'

From the fitness craze to the dream of hyperwealth, this is so reminiscent of prewar fascism in Europe. I guess our corporate culture felt envious of what went on there... As I say, unrecognizable to me, this contemporary America.

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by: jjmm @ Sat May 16, 2009 at 13:44:39 PM CDT

the end of plausible deniability (0.00 / 0)

In a weird way I'm heartened by these revelations. It seems that, precisely because all plausible deniability is gone, there will be no alternative but for such sort of truth commission or trial to lead to a legal accounting of the torture regime. It may take a while to sort itself out, but the present condition of torture for political purposes having been rather clearly established and not yet having any legal response to that fact seems unsustainable. And the palpable desperation of the attacks on Pelosi and Cheney's despicable torture defense tour just add to that sense.

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by: Chachy @ Sat May 16, 2009 at 14:44:24 PM CDT

I'm Hopefull, Too (0.00 / 0)

But I don't think we can just sit back and watch.

The popcorn is going to have to wait.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

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by: Paul Rosenberg @ Sat May 16, 2009 at 15:59:01 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

When are the protests starting? (4.00 / 1)

Why the heck aren't the ACLU and Amnesty Intl pushing to have protests in DC (elsewhere?) about torture and having investigations?  I would love to head out and spend a weekend standing up for this topic, so far I've seen nothing brewing.  

We just have to keep pushing, this can't be allowed to go away (because it never will and we're just waiting for Cheney II to get into office.)

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by: zot2323 @ Sat May 16, 2009 at 14:55:00 PM CDT

Direct Action is not very effective (0.00 / 0)

The work that we do organizing and educating is as effective as 200 folks on the street that are ignored by the MSM.

I am happy to see that Talk Left has its eye on the ball now.

The winning argument in this whole mess is that the torture was used to "make the case" for Iraq-9/11 connection that never existed.

The apologists for Cheney and company will lose this argument, if we can stay on message. I have seen some on the left distracted by the Polosi argument.

Imho, we need to point out that the Pelosi "story" is a "wag the dog."

Nice work Paul, thank you for post that keeps our eye on the ball.

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by: randy80302 @ Sat May 16, 2009 at 15:25:17 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I Agree That Protest For Protest Sake Is Not The Way To Go (4.00 / 1)

And education has to come first.

But I do think that a well-crafted protest strategy could be very helpful in ratcheting up the pressure to get serious action taken.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

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by: Paul Rosenberg @ Sat May 16, 2009 at 16:05:14 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Ring the WH with the photos? (0.00 / 0)

and line the streets on the way to Cheney's next interview with even more.


"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."

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by: SpitBall @ Mon May 18, 2009 at 13:16:39 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

It is very effective (4.00 / 1)

it just hasn't been tried since 1964.

Most protests are just theater, not direct action.

Direct action involved civil disobdience and boycotting.

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by: Dameocrat @ Sat May 16, 2009 at 17:59:21 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I Think This Should Happen Shortly (4.00 / 1)

and I hope it does.  But it has to be focused.  People sitting in at their Representatives' local district office, for example, if they haven't taken certain steps to effectively demand an investigation, something like that.

But it needs to be well-defined, and have credible spokespeople as well.  We don't want to be readily equatable with the tea-baggers.  They'll try to hang that on us anyway, but we should be in a position to just shrug them off.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

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by: Paul Rosenberg @ Sat May 16, 2009 at 16:03:09 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Looking forward (0.00 / 0)

It appears to me that the idea of not holding those responsible rests in the White House. With the constant refrain from the Obama Administration, "looking forward and not back" Democratic members of Congress will not buck the administration.

I do not agree with the President, and will continue to support investigation and prosecution of those that broke the law. I just do not have much faith that members of Congress will buck the administration and follow through with any calls for investigation.

Atty. Gen. Holder has the power to start the process, so I think that he should be pressured to bow to the will of the people.

I work for a fundraising company and make calls to ACLU members and have received much feedback this week from members that they are not in favor of looking back.

That tells me that we are losing the battle of the airwaves and that if card carrying ACLU members are ambivalent to prosecution we have a long way to go.

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by: randy80302 @ Sat May 16, 2009 at 16:31:39 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Two Things To Consider In Your Equation (4.00 / 1)

First, Pelosi's been calling for an inquiry for some time now.  She's repeated that call in response to the recent attacks on her, and that dynamic could very well lead to what we've been calling for, despite what the White House may want.  By redirecting the locus of the fight--a process that Cheney himself began--the influence of the White House has been somewhat diminished, and the point may well come where they figure the cost/benefit calculus has changed.

Second, former federal prosecutor Elizabeth De La Vega has argued that we don't have enough of a public record and common narrative yet for a special prosecutor to successfully work with.  She says that we need a good deal more public information to get out into the public domain.  So the current direction of increased public disclosure of one thing after another may be the best possible way for things to go, at least for a couple more weeks.

That doesn't mean just sitting back and watching, but it does mean that we should be happy for the time being raising the pressure to investigate, and using each new revelation to intensify those calls.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

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by: Paul Rosenberg @ Sat May 16, 2009 at 16:47:59 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I still have a lot of trouble (0.00 / 0)

With everyone from Newt Gingrich to Pelosi calling for congressional inquiries or commissions. I think we all lose if self congressional policing takes place in lieu of or in tandem with a special prosecutor.

I can't help but feel Pelosi is still interested in hiding something, by only suggesting commissions are the answer here.

Marcy Wheeler has really helped me understand how Pelosi is above board (so far) on the briefing situation.  She has a couple of posts up today which would help anyone in need of clarification on the Pelosi story.

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by: Eureka Springs AR @ Sat May 16, 2009 at 16:31:26 PM CDT

It's Been A Long Time Since ANYTHING Worked Properly In DC (4.00 / 1)

Congressional inquiries alone aren't the answer, that much I agree with 100%.  But as noted above, former federal prosecutor Elizabeth De La Vega has argued that we don't have enough of a public record and common narrative yet for a special prosecutor to successfully work with.  As one of the most credentialed people to argue for Bush's impeachment--writing a whole book on the subject--I think De La Vega has clearly earned respect for her views.

The ideal way for this to move forward is on two fronts--one in Congress, and one with a special prosecutor.  But it has to be well co-ordinated, with the public hearings in the lead, and the prosecution working in the background, functioning mainly as a pressure mechanism at first, increasing the likelihood of getting the maximum amount of the real story out onto the public record.  Ideally, the Congressional investigation should be completed (with no immunity deals) before the prosecution moves to the stage where deal-making with principals would even be thought about.  This sort of co-ordination was utterly lacking with Iran/Contra, particularly because Congress granted transactional immunity, and were in far too much of a hurry, which is one of the reasons that Reagan and Bush got off scott-free, thus enabling the mass pardoning of virtually everyone else.  It also got Oliver North off on appeal--though I still think that was a bum decision.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

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by: Paul Rosenberg @ Sat May 16, 2009 at 16:59:08 PM CDT

[ Parent ]