Obama's Roll-Back On "A Few Bad Apples"

by: Paul Rosenberg

Sun May 17, 2009 at 14:00


One part of Obama's justification in withholding the promised release of additional photos showing abuse of prisoners was the revival of the "few bad apples" defense, which, as noted in my previous diary, xxxxx, was thoroughly devastated by Dan Fromkin.  Here's his full treatment:

Then there was the the-bad-apples-have-been-dealt-with excuse. This one, to me, is the most troubling.

Obama said the incidents pictured in the photographs "were investigated -- and, I might add, investigated long before I took office -- and, where appropriate, sanctions have been applied....[T]his is not a situation in which the Pentagon has concealed or sought to justify inappropriate action. Rather, it has gone through the appropriate and regular processes. And the individuals who were involved have been identified, and appropriate actions have been taken."

But this suggests that Obama has bought into the false Bush-administration narrative that the abuses of detainees were isolated acts, rather than part of an endemic system of abuse implicitly sanctioned at the highest levels of government. The Bushian view has been widely discredited -- and for Obama to endorse it suggests a fundamental misunderstanding of the past.

The notion that responsibility for the sorts of actions depicted in those photos lies at the highest -- not lowest -- levels of government is not exactly a radical view. No less an authority than the Senate Armed Services Committee concluded in a bipartisan report: "The abuse of detainees in U.S. custody cannot simply be attributed to the actions of 'a few bad apples' acting on their own....The fact is that senior officials in the United States government solicited information on how to use aggressive techniques, redefined the law to create the appearance of their legality, and authorized their use against detainees."

But as The Washington Post notes: "[N]o commanding officers or Defense Department officials were jailed or fired in connection with the abuse, which the Bush administration dismissed as the misbehavior of low-ranking soldiers." And the "appropriate actions," as Obama put it, have certainly not yet been taken. The architects of the system in which the abuse took place have yet to be held to account.

Paul Rosenberg :: Obama's Roll-Back On "A Few Bad Apples"
Froomkin's own original take on the aforementioned bipartisan report, back in December began thus:

Pack of Liars

By Dan Froomkin
Special to washingtonpost.com
Friday, December 12, 2008; 12:48 PM

Yesterday's bipartisan Senate report on the abuse of detainees in U.S. custody at Guantanamo, Abu Ghraib and elsewhere doesn't just lay out a clear line of responsibility starting with President Bush, it also exposes the administration's repeated explanation for what happened as a pack of lies.

"The abuse of detainees in U.S. custody cannot simply be attributed to the actions of 'a few bad apples' acting on their own," the report finds. "The fact is that senior officials in the United States government solicited information on how to use aggressive techniques, redefined the law to create the appearance of their legality, and authorized their use against detainees. Those efforts damaged our ability to collect accurate intelligence that could save lives, strengthened the hand of our enemies, and compromised our moral authority."

....

And the report concludes: "The abuse of detainees at Abu Ghraib in late 2003 was not simply the result of a few soldiers acting on their own. Interrogation techniques such as stripping detainees of their clothes, placing them in stress positions, and using military working dogs to intimidate them appeared in Iraq only after they had been approved for use in Afghanistan and at [Guantanamo]. Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld's December 2, 2002 authorization of aggressive interrogation techniques and subsequent interrogation policies and plans approved by senior military and civilian officials conveyed the message that physical pressures and degradation were appropriate treatment for detainees in U.S. military custody. What followed was an erosion in standards dictating that detainees be treated humanely."

Froomkin went to offer evidence of Bush's direct involvement in lying to cover up what had happened:

Bush himself repeatedly and sanctimoniously blamed Abu Ghraib on a small number of low-level perpetrators, even while trying to get credit for what he insisted was a transparent system that held those who were responsible accountable.

Bush, on May 24, 2004, described what happened at Abu Ghraib as "disgraceful conduct by a few American troops who dishonored our country and disregarded our values."

On June 1, 2004, he told a reporter: "Obviously, it was a shameful moment when we saw on our TV screens that soldiers took it upon themselves to humiliate Iraqi prisoners -- because it doesn't reflect the nature of the American people, or the nature of the men and women in our uniform. And what the world will see is that we will handle this matter in a very transparent way, that there will be rule of law -- which is an important part of any democracy. And there will be transparency, which is a second important part of a democracy. And people who have done wrong will be held to account for the world to see.

"That will stand -- this process will stand in stark contrast to what would happen under a tyrant. You would never know about the abuses in the first place. And if you did know about the abuses, you certainly wouldn't see any process to correct them."

In a May 18, 2004, interview, Bush told an Iraqi journalist: "I want to know the truth, too. . . . [Y]ou've just got to know that I'm interested in the truth, as well, just like you're interested in the truth."

And by April 6, 2006, after seven soldiers had been convicted, Bush made it clear that his quest was over: "I'm proud to report that the people who made that decision are being brought to justice, and there was a full investigation over why something like that could have happened."

By contrast, yesterday's Senate report suggests that those responsible for the abuse have emphatically not been brought to justice, and that there's more investigating to be done. Among the issues still to be addressed: the CIA interrogation program, which even more overtly included techniques commonly considered to be torture, such as waterboarding. There's also the obvious question that comes to mind after considering the sequence of events: How are these not war crimes?

The evidence was much more widespread than this however.  For example, by sheer accident, looking for something entirely different this morning, I came across this entry in Washington Monthly's Poliotical Animal, back on May 7, 2004:

BROKEN PROCESS OR OFFICIAL POLICY?....Apparently everyone's been trying to warn Bush and Rumsfeld about possible abuse of prisoners in Iraq for months now.  And not just the usual bleeding hearts:
  • David Kay: "I was there and I kept saying the interrogation process is broken. The prison process is broken. And no one wanted to deal with it.  It was too, too distasteful. This is a known problem, and the military refuses to deal with it."

  • Paul Bremer: "Bremer repeatedly raised the issue of prison conditions as early as last fall - both in one-on-one meetings with Rumsfeld and other administration leaders, and in group meetings with the president's inner circle on national security. Officials described Bremer as 'kicking and screaming' about the need to release thousands of uncharged prisoners and improve conditions for those who remained."

  • Colin Powell: "According to eye witnesses to debate at the highest levels of the Administration...whenever Powell or [Richard] Armitage sought to question prisoner treatment issues, they were forced to endure what our source characterizes as 'around the table, coarse, vulgar, frat-boy bully remarks about what these tough guys would do if THEY ever got their hands on prisoners....'"
Well, maybe these folks really did try to get everyone to pay attention to this issue or maybe they're just covering their own asses after the fact.  Who knows?

But I think it misses the point anyway.  Everyone is desperately trying to dismiss Abu Ghraib as an "aberration," nothing more than a "broken process" and a few rogue soldiers who are now being taken care of by the military justice system.  But it just ain't so.

This kind of thing doesn't just happen.  It happens because people order it to happen.  So who gave the orders?

May 7, 2004 was right around the time that Zogby wrote that the 2004 election was "Kerry's to lose," and while Zogby himself has fallen in well-deserved disrepute since then, his work up to that time wasn't that far from the norm, and the overall polling data from that from that period supports his conclusion.  Indeed, Kerry continued to solidify his position up until about 2 weeks before the convention in late July when he started to freeze up into the ineptly defensive posture that would eventually cripple his campaign.  

Kerry would not aggressively go after the Bush Administration for promoting such a horrific policy and then blaming low-level personnel, who were thus victimized twice, even as they victimized Iraqi prisoners in turn.  Instead, he acquiessed in the standard imperial narrative that uncritically links all levels of command together in one big happy military family--and drafts the civilian population into service as well, in the role of cheerleader corps.

And now that so much more information has come out, and the story has grown monstrously worse, Obama is continuing the same fatal moral, as well as political mistake that Kerry made back in the summer of 2004, when only Michael Moore, it seemed, was willing to speak out loudly against the dominant hegemonic narrative of the time.  We are now at the point where the Democrats should be consolidating control over the political system for the next 36 years or so (the typical period between realigning elections), but Obama's moral and political cowardice, echoing Kerry's own fear to break with the once-dominant power that has now been twice defeated at the polls, is precisely the sort of fatal failure that could actually enable the Republicans to come back, when they have nothing whatsoever to offer except the thoroughly discredited policies that have brought our country to a state of ruin unparalleled since they last held power in dark days of the early Great Depression.

The point here is that Obama's embrace of the discredited BushCo "few bad apples" narrative is not an isolated act, but rather part of a much more sweeping, much more widespread pattern.  Faced with the choice between blanket imperial coverup and democratic truth-telling that discriminates not just between the honorable and dishonorable, but also between the powerful and relatively powerless, Obama has decided to go with the imperial coverup.

This is fully compatible with his other efforts to protect the guilty elites in virtually every sector, while passing on the pain to the relatively innocent--or even entirely innocent average Americans who are being asked to shoulder by far the greatest burden.

This form of "socialization" of pain and suffering, while privatizing benefits out the wazoo is the preferred pattern of Obama Administration, in almost lock-step conformity with the Bush Administration before it.  It embraces the logic of the conservative welfare state in it's American form, a logic whose primary aim is to strengthen the power of elites over the masses, and to use state power to mobilize a unified people behind the leadership of unaccountable elite institutions and individuals.  There are, of course, differences between Bush and Obama--the stylistic ones are overwhelming, in fact.  But it's becoming increasingly obvious that the substantive differences are merely a matter of how much more efficiently and comprehensively the Obama Administration can carry out policies that Bush struggled with and bumbled.

Prime example: Bush drew enormous heat, and only barely managed to pass a Medicare drug benefit that provided a mighty windfall for the drug companies.  Obama, in contrast, is about to shepard through a massive "health care reform" that will force tens of millions of Americans to pour money that most of them really don't have into the coffers of the health insurance industry.  It's the same exact form of state-forced special interest benefit, but Obama's packaging is so far superior to Bush's that the comparison is simply not believable to most observers.  The packaging is just too shiny for anyone to actually see what's inside.

And so we go, continuing, for most part, in the same exact direction that we've been headed for the past 30+ years, but with a much steadier hand on the helm than we've had for the past 8.

And this is "change we can believe in."   But the reality is that it falls so far short of what people are expecting that we may well experience a severe backlash, and a sudden return to the most incompetent version of what we've been experiencing for the past 30+ years.

Those are the two choices we're now be given.  And from a big-picture point of view--or from a getting-evicted-from-your-house point of view--that's really no choice at all.


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We Need A Special Prosecutor To Investigate And Prosecute Americans Involved With Torture And International War Crimes. (4.00 / 3)
The sad truth is that many of the witnesses to the torture, beatings, kickings, near-drownings, brutalities conducted by U.S. employees and representatives are probably dead.  How many people did we kidnap, torture, then murder to make sure they could never testify in a court of law?  Why transport people to secret black hole prisons maintained by the CIA in undisclosed locations in Europe except that the person  will be murdered after interrogation?  Too risky to have lots of bodies being thrown into the water off of Guantanamo.

The photographs are evidence of a crime.  Obama now says that if we disclose the evidence of crimes, or turn that evidence over to an independent prosecutor, then some people will be very angry when they see what we've done.  

Well yes.  That's always the case with evidence of a crime.  Corpses, pictures, videos of dead bodies often  make other people angry.  Particularly if the bodies are dead because of intentional killing.  

If the photos are released, the citizens of Iraq and Afghanistan might be angry at the U.S.  Psst:  get a clue folks, they're already angry.  They don't want us there.  We invaded.  We have bombed, murdered, disappeared, brutalized, imprisoned, destroyed their countries, their institutions, their utilities, their medical system, their schools, their government -- we've destroyed it all, and now we military occupy their countries telling the citizens that they'd better stay out of the way of we'll kill them.

So those people are already angry.  Wake up.  

Release the photos.  End the wars and bring our troops home.  And appoint an independent prosecutor, allow him or her to pick their assistants and begin public hearings to determine who should be prosecuted.  If it is Bush and Cheney, then do it.  Don't keep whining that we can't enforce the law against wealthy powerful people.  That's how things are run in dictatorships, not in democracies.

Then appoint Elizabeth Warren to act as independent prosecutor to begin hearings about the financial crimes.  We need to seize assets of every person who has worked in Wall Street over the past 10 years, investigate, prosecute, and throw them in prison.  Then take back whatever TARP or other money that has been given to them.  For the money hidden off-shore in secret private accounts, hedge funds, equity funds, go get it and arrest the people running those money-laundering scams.

Here's the truth:  the Wall Street Criminals and the politicians they own have done much more harm to us than Al Queda ever did.  They have ruined our economy, bankrupt the people and the federal and state governments.  They have looted, taken their money off-shore, and are just waiting in predator funds to move in and buy up everything.  While we are wandering around the world with our little armies, killing and invading at random, stealing assets, looting, pillaging, raping, pretending to be a mighty Empire, the truth is that we are flat broke and in big trouble.

Arnold the Terminator is getting ready to sell off all assets belonging to the state of California in order to pay the bills, and to shut down the public school system so David Horowitz and his for-profit education team can move in and take over that, ending public education forever.

And we're debating some Polaroid:  Eke, eke, we can't let people see, it's such a terrible picture of me.  I look awful in profile!  No butt-shots, no knee-shots.  

Maybe the picture we should have on the front pages of our newspapers is one of Obama with a fiddle in his hand, and the entire Empire of the U.S. in the background burning.


Bad Apples, just not just (4.00 / 1)
I agree with this almost completely.  My only additional point is it is possible to have "bad apples" and also have the systematic abuse that leads directly to Bush.  There is a big difference between sticking with Bush's corrupt attempt to legalize torture versus pilling on your own additional creative torture techniques.

I know we disagree on this, but it is my belief that the only people who should be prosecuted for torture are those who expanded it use.  That includes Bush, Cheney, their lawyers, and a variety of other leaders, but also includes agents that went beyond their official orders.

Since these pictures include torture going well beyond water boarding, sleep deprivation and other "legalized" techniques, the players really were "bad apples", just not "just bad apples".  The bad apples go all the way up the chain of command.


Well Whoever We Prosecute (0.00 / 0)
I think you'd agree that we need to establish a clear, irrefutable, and universally known record of what actually happened.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Yep (4.00 / 4)
None of this can be kept a secret any longer.  Obama has a lot of good will among the Muslim nations right now.  Somehow, he seems to miss the point that releasing all of stuff and shining light on Bush's sins will increase this good will, but the reverse could throw it all away.

[ Parent ]
Exactly! (0.00 / 0)
And you would think he'd be the first to realize this, from everything he said as a candidate.

Too bad he didn't believe what he was saying.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
At this point, my only hope (4.00 / 3)
is that, whether by design/hope (i.e. 11D chess), or in spite of it (i.e. he truly does want to just "move on"), the situation will get out of hand and explode in his and Dems' faces, and they'll have no choice but to "look back". I don't know how this will happen, but if it's going to happen, this is probably the only way that it can happen, because he, and Dems, who now ARE the establishment, will never do it on their own--genuine investigations and if warranted prosecutions, that is. They are simply too stupid, too foolish, too spineless, too unprincipled and craven self-interested, to be capable of doing this of their own free will. And Obama is now one of them. And if they're not careful, it will destroy them.

My only advice to Obama at this point is to read a certain Thomas Wolfe novel, and follow its title's advice. Or Proust, s'il vous preferez. And stop trying to live out Joe Heller's novel!

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton


[ Parent ]
It's not just apples anymore (4.00 / 2)
The entire orchard is infested with Grima Wormetongues!

Read Glenn, Rich, Wheeler, Kagro X and of course Paul (*s*) today.

It's like the false run up to the war never ended. Every single person defending the torturers... whether they say, "let's just look ahead" or "fear the ticking time bomb" which was never the case. These are the people who should be promoting the release of the torture photos most of all... yet they are not... because they are liars and cowards.

The whole orchard is infested.. the orchard being:

Constitution
Rule of Law
Troops
Treasure
Basic common sense
Human decency at its most basic level

Are all under assault.


Bad Applesauce (0.00 / 0)
That's how I put it.  Industrial spoilage of the entire crop.

But maybe that's just because I picked apples for a living one summer, and I just hate to even think of an entire orchard blighted.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
"Kagro X" being David Waldman (0.00 / 0)
Of Daily Kos and now CNN.

And yes, we're dealing with a rotten orchard, which has at most a few GOOD apples, all due to some truly rotten MANAGEMENT.

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton


[ Parent ]
If true, then Obama is a coward, a fool, and sellout, who will fail (4.00 / 3)
Because if true--and which each passing day the evidence mounts that it is--then he's putting us on an unsustainable course towards political and economic disaster that might right to the level of 1930 Germany. And we all know how that turned out. By refusing to do what needs to be done, on the legal, political and economic fronts, as well as the moral front, and instead siding with the course of American Empire, he is making an historically bad bargain, that can only end badly for us all, because this imperial project is unsustainable, and if persued much further, instead of being abandoned, will destroy us.

I don't think that I'm being hyperbolic. This is how empires collapse, by overreaching, at the expense of dealing with serious internal problems that are the byproducts of such imperial overreach. And when they collapse, they do so violently and horrifically. E.g. the Dark Ages, the French Revolution, WWI, the Russian Revolution, WWII and the Holocaust. Obama is almost literally feeding the beast that is killing us all--including the beast itself.

What a coward, and fool, and moral midget, if this is indeed what he's doing. And anyone who thinks that we're going to get genuine universal health insurance, a thriving new economy, high speed rail, security from future terrorist attacks, better schools, etc., is just as much of a fool as he is. We're in a pivotal moment in our history where if we DON'T "look back", there may well be no "looking forward". The past has entrapped us, and there is no going forward without first addressing it properly and squarely.

We needed a leader and what we got was just another slick politician.

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton


Who is in charge (4.00 / 1)
I'll repeat myself. No president is free to act in ways which disturb the permanent government unduly, specifically the fourth branch - the military.

Now that Obama is in office he is discovering how powerful this group is. The military persists almost unchanged from one administration to another and has powerful allies in congress that ensure that it stays that way.

For example, suppose Obama orders the CIA to clean up its act. How could he tell that they complied? Who is going to report the results? The only source of information will be the CIA itself. Was Iran/contra a "rogue" operation or was Reagan involved in some way? Can we really tell and does it really matter? The point was that it was an illegal operation done without any oversight and the perpetrators mostly got a slap on the wrist. Some have even parlayed their misdeeds into new careers pandering to the military/industrial complex.

Another example: the atrocities of the A bombs were covered up at the time, and the photos of the devastation taken afterwards are still classified. If the US can cover up this sort of mass murder for 60 years what is to be expected of the mistreatment of a few hundred prisoners?

Perhaps the public can generate enough pressure to force some sorts of meaningful investigations to take place, but I doubt it, a significant portion of the population is still taken with the Jack Bauer approach to "terrorism".

Are people just looking for revenge for all the misdeeds of the Bush era or are they really interested in reforming the power structure so that it performs useful functions in the future? I sense too much payback and not enough future planning.

Policies not Politics


You OVerstate The Case (0.00 / 0)
After all, Bush/Cheney wrecked absolute havoc on the military and the intelligence communities.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Right (0.00 / 0)
Robert's basic point is correct, but it forgives the fact that Obama is the one making choices.  The pressure for the president to follow the advice of the establishment is huge, but it is still Obama who holds the real power.

I'm a believer that you have to choose your battles and fighting the hundred-sided war is the wrong way to go, so I have more sympathy for Obama on this than many, but sympathy isn't the same thing as agreeing.  At some point it won't be the same thing as forgiving, either.


[ Parent ]
See this (0.00 / 0)
Today's Toles cartoon makes a similar point.

http://d.yimg.com/a/p/uc/20090...

Policies not Politics


[ Parent ]
Chose Yes, But... (0.00 / 0)
I'm a believer that you have to choose your battles and fighting the hundred-sided war is the wrong way to go

There are exceptions to every rule (including this one), and this looks like one of those times when it makes sense to fight more battles, rather than less (though not exactly 100 of them!)  The reason being that there are solid interconnections--between massive spending and massive investments to prevent the worst of global warming, for exmple.  And it seems to me that Obama has indicated some of these connections, and after mentioning them once, he then goes back to dealing with things in a piecemeal fashion that actually makes it harder to win the separate battles.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Perhaps, rabbit, perhaps (0.00 / 0)
But, in the long run, the Bush/Cheney doctrines fully and overtly tied the future survival of the US way of life, hell the very existence of the nation, to the ability of the military (at least particular, hand-picked, elements of it) to do pretty much whatever they deem necessary to "protect" the USA. They cemented the future of the military/industrial/congressional complex in a way that all the idle chatter about the end of the Cold War and "peace dividends" never could. No one questions that the troops must be supported and we all know that its virtually impossible to support the troops while opposing the Pentagon.

I mean, upon whom did they "wreck havoc"? They finally put away the ghosts of Viet Nam. We are back to being the military worshipping citizens that make the generals so damned pleased. All the talk of a "broken" military is a great way to channel even more $ their way, and without questions being raised.

How much money have we spent on our military since the end of WW2?  And all we got was a fighting force that "broke" after invading an occupying two nations that can barely raise an infantry? Good thing we never had to take on any nation that had an airforce, or heavy armor, huh?  Now, was that money well-spent?  No.  But, now that the Bush/Cheney types have managed to get us all frightened again, we'll fork over more money willingly and call ourselves "patriots" for doing so.



"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
Robert you said: (4.00 / 1)
Are people just looking for revenge for all the misdeeds of the Bush era or are they really interested in reforming the power structure so that it performs useful functions in the future? I sense too much payback and not enough future planning.

********

I don't even know what this type of question means anymore. Have you been listening to the GOPer videos and talking points? Have you been reading here or any of the posts mentioned in this thread? Nobody on the left (and yes, I will be that generalized) is talking about anything remotely close to revenge.

Far to many on "the leftt", imo, are talking about truth commissions and looking forward. The rest are pleading for rule of law, with evidence and prosecutions, and truly stopping what we have been doing for far to long.. Ford's pardon, Iran Contra.. and of course our string of needless wars. Now we torture globally, while the torturers are still winning the day in both politics and the media.

But the rest are out for revenge?

Ridiculous.


[ Parent ]
Slap at Zogby is factually wrong - and undermines your other argumens . . . (0.00 / 0)

Whatever the strengths of your other arguments, the gratuitous slap at Zogby polling in 2004 is simply wrong. He was the closest pollster in that election, both interactively and on the telephone. You write that Zogby has fallen into "well-deserved disrepute", and you can have whatever opinion you want - but the truth is that the cumulative star of political polling from 1996 through 2008 is Zogby.

And in the 2006 midterms, at least Zogby had the stones to poll 18 U.S. Senate races interactively - something no one else has dared to do. He got 17 of 18 correct, and even though Silver has claimed the average Zogby error was about 8 percent, the truth is there is no way to exactly poll a blowout - everyone who pays attention to the industry knows this. The farther ahead one candidate gets from an opponent, the harder it is to poll for any number of reasons. In the 10 closest races Zogby polled interactively in 2006, he was withing about 3 percent - well within the margin of error, and he got all but one of those very close races correct (the one he missed was in Missouri).

The bottom line is, whether you like Zogby's clients or not, there is a very good reason he is at the top of the industry - he understands the art and science of polling and gets it right as often as anyone else, and he has the guts to pursue new technology as it becomes clear people want to communicate in a new way.  Give him his due.


Slap at Zogby is factually wrong - and undermines your other arguments . . . (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
Chill (0.00 / 0)
Zogby has a decent record in the bigs, as Charles Franklin's comparative analysis last August showed at pollster.com.

But Zogby has also done some very questionable polling--not because of his clients so much as some of his question choices and some of his results.  Because these problems are fairly well known, I wanted to make sure people did not transfer assumptions from them to what he said in Spring of 2004.  Up to that point, I think that Zogby was not just at the top of his game as a professional pollster, he was also on top in terms of analyzing results.  But that's really a very hard case to make at this point in time, and I was simply being realistic in noting this.

Now, your claim, that my acknowledgment in passing of Zorgby's questionable status somehow undermines my "other arguments" (meaning my only arguments, since I didn't mount an argument over Zogby, merely made an observation) is totally illogical, as Spock might say.  There is no logical connection between what I said about Zogby's later questionable status and anything else that I said.

In fact, you didn't even try to make any conntection.  A smart move, I guess, since there obviously isn't any.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
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