uh, she already answered your question (0.00 / 0)

http://abeautifulfire.blogspot...


New Jersey politics at Blue Jersey.

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by: Hopeful in NJ @ Mon May 18, 2009 at 23:21:48 PM CDT

As noted in the blog post you linked to (4.00 / 1)

Erica Williams did post a response:

When the conversation veered slightly off topic and turned into a  yelling match about torture between two other bloggers, making it difficult for me to jump in, my talking point about "moving forward and taking the American people's attention off Obama's ambitious legislative agenda" (which I intended to say only in reference to the Pelosi/CIA who-dunnit) somehow came out as [the noted quote].

That sounds like a plausible and acceptable explanation.

Things You Don't Talk About in Polite Company: Religion, Politics, the Occasional Intersection of Both

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by: Anthony de Jesus @ Mon May 18, 2009 at 23:24:23 PM CDT

yep, me too. (4.00 / 1)

Thanks for pointing to that link. That was definitely a constructive response on her part!

As Greenwald said in the comments to her post:

Kudos to Erica Williams for her acknowledgment of error. Our political discourse would be vastly improved if more people were willing to offer such straightforward and authentic apologies for their mistakes.

Ditto.

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by: AdamGreen @ Mon May 18, 2009 at 23:34:07 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I'm glad she apologized (4.00 / 2)

But I doubt she did not mean what she said at the time.

And this:

"moving forward and taking the American people's attention off Obama's ambitious legislative agenda"

Are we supposed to laugh or cry after reading that part of her explanation? She said it herself, she missed her talking points. I wonder if she has any depth/sincerity beyond that that fact?

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by: Eureka Springs AR @ Mon May 18, 2009 at 23:37:28 PM CDT

Someone else pointed this out (4.00 / 1)

But how does demonstrating (and hopefully proving in a court of law) Bush/Republican's mendacity harm Obama's legislative activity?

Right now they are the party of "No", but are hoping to ride that to a return to glory if the economy stays down.  Reminding the American public just how batshit crazy the Bushies and their Republican toadies actually are can only improve the progressive position in American politics...

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by: elhuevon @ Mon May 18, 2009 at 23:51:10 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I think there is a portion of the public (4.00 / 1)

Who have decided that post-9/11 was a crazy time.  The Iraq war once had the support of 70+% of the American people.  There's a third of America out there which includes a good chunk of people who probably don't want evidence continually thrown in their faces that they were idiots.  I really do think there are people out there who believe that torture occurred and that it was wrong, but who don't really want a big public spectacle looking into it.

There's a part of Congress that feels the same way. There's probably a better chance of getting punishment of members of the Bush administration if you agree that rank-and-file CIA members can be excused for committing torture under a good faith acceptance of legal arguments and that, by extension of the same logic, you can forgive Congressional Democrats for supporting the war under a good faith acceptance of Bush administration lies.  The problem with that is that it paints Democrats as having been hoodwinked by a guy perceived as an idiot, which makes them seem unfit to rule.  Plus, some on the left just won't agree to treat them as blameless victims.

So, there are parts of both Congress and the American public who will act defensively if torture is probed, and that is a bad mindset to put people in if Obama's legislative agenda is centered around bold action on health care.  It may be that the best path to seeing the truth uncovered is to have Congress set up a commission sometime around 2011, once US troops have been theoretically (mostly) withdrawn from Iraq.

Things You Don't Talk About in Polite Company: Religion, Politics, the Occasional Intersection of Both

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by: Anthony de Jesus @ Tue May 19, 2009 at 01:44:48 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Sweeping torture under the rug (4.00 / 1)

so as not to embarrass torture apologists is an extremely bad idea.

In fact it is the road to hell.

Montani semper liberi

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by: Sadie Baker @ Tue May 19, 2009 at 10:23:23 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

This all makes sense, IF (0.00 / 0)

the abuse and torture of those the US deems an "enemy" was a product of the attacks on 9/11/01.

If, instead, what was revealed is actually business as usual for the Pentagon and the CIA and was only noticed because the abuses were photographed, then the characterization of these as the product of a "crazy time" is actually a way to divert attention from the depth of the program and how integrated "enhanced interrogation" is within our intelligence/military community.

Maybe that's why President Obama won't release more photos - because the extent and number of incidents makes it impossible to write these off as due to "crazy times" or "bad apples".


"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."

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by: SpitBall @ Tue May 19, 2009 at 11:15:03 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

This is the point right here: (4.00 / 1)

"nobody can defend what he called "torture for political reasons" -- cooking the evidence to justify an unwarranted war to the American people."

In fact, it may be the 800 lb elephant in the room every single time a guy like Dik Chainy sits down to be interviewed by the syncophant of the day.

"The US does not torture"*

* void where contradicted by secret memos. May be set aside for political and/or financial gain. Valid only in the USA. Some restrictions apply.


"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."

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by: SpitBall @ Tue May 19, 2009 at 07:58:40 AM CDT

Pretty Amazing (4.00 / 3)

I was shocked by Williams when I first saw this segment.  The contrast between Waldman's articulation of a fresh progressive frame, and Williams echoing the torture apologists' line ("no one cares") was particularly shocking.

Now that she's retracted what she said--a distressing rare occurrence, that deserves to be praised--we should all reflect on what it says about the power of endlessly repeated conservative narratives.  When oh when are liberals and Democrats with the most prominent platforms going to learn the importance of framing, messaging and narratives?

What the heck did I just say? Dear God - A TORTURE APOLOGIST TOOK OVER MY BODY.    

Looking back at the quote, I'm honestly not sure how I could have said something so wholly inaccurate and misrepresenting of my own personal opinion and the work of my organization and "the American people".  Me? A black woman who proudly wears her "Where are my reparations T-shirt" every Black History Month? Would I really suggest that America look away from and excuse its very recent and inhumane past? I think not. And yet, it appears as if I did.    

How that happened was simple: GOP leaders with double-digit negative approval numbers endlessly repeat their narratives, so that everyone in America can repeat them word-for-word in their sleep.  Dem leaders who people actually like?  Not so much. So when a novel conflict erupts, the conservative narrative is right there as a default mode to fall back into.

And that's precisely what happened.  I know it must have been particularly embarrassing for Erica, but this same sort of thing goes on in millions and millions of people's minds, and rather than see this as some sort of personal failing on her part, we should see it as a valuable lesson about how all of us are affected by the uncontested dominance of hegemonic conservative discourse.

I'm very pleased with her response so far.  But I hope she'll take it even farther, by looking more deeply into how what happened to her is indicative of this much more general and far-reaching problem that should have been dealt with years ago.  Nothing would be greater than having her turn this incident into the foundation for becoming a zealous advocate for counter-hegemonic narrative warfare.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

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by: Paul Rosenberg @ Tue May 19, 2009 at 08:26:18 AM CDT

The content was good (4.00 / 1)

But I actually think the presentation was better. The bow-tied goon was clearly trying to shout Waldman down, and he wasn't allowed to. The hackles rose, and he argued right back.

That doesn't necessarily make for edifying debate, but it makes it that much harder for the morons to dominate the airwaves. It prevents them using the Bitchslap Theory of politics.

Forgotten Countries - a foreign policy-focused blog

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by: Englishlefty @ Tue May 19, 2009 at 08:29:01 AM CDT