Obama, John Rawls, and a Defense of the Unreasonable

by: Nonpartisan

Sat Jun 13, 2009 at 20:30


(This is THE best explanation of Obama I've ever seen.  It's not even close to being close. I don't agree with every sentence, but I agree with every one that really counts.  See for yourself if you agree. - promoted by Paul Rosenberg)

Cross-posted from ProgressiveHistorians

 If you want to understand President Obama's soul, read his books.  But if you want to understand his beliefs, read John Rawls.  The Harvard academic, who died in 2002, was the most important philosopher of liberalism in the twentieth century, mostly because, in so many ways, Rawls' ideas describe the world we live in.  That has never been more true than today, when our President has, consciously or unconsciously, exalted Rawlsian ideas to the position of the greatest possible good.

Care to hear more about this explanatory model that is so central to Obama's thought, whether he acknowledges the influence or not?  Read on.

Nonpartisan :: Obama, John Rawls, and a Defense of the Unreasonable
* * * * * * * * *

The big question that confronted liberal theorists in Rawls' heyday was the problem of pluralism.  The old liberal theories -- those by Locke, Kant, J.S. Mill, and others -- were based on the idea that one set of values was "right" and others were "wrong."  For Locke, an atheist or someone who didn't believe in the afterlife couldn't be trusted to hold to the social contract (because they wouldn't be afraid of divine retribution), so such people were cut out of his philosophy.  Mill was okay with nonbelievers but considered non-Western peoples to be "barbarians" who had to be educated in rationality before they could enjoy the fruits of liberalism.  In the modern, post-colonial world, such assumptions simply didn't hold water.  So could liberalism be made to encompass the immense variety of peoples and beliefs in the world -- without either losing its punch or discriminating against vast numbers of people?

Rawls' first attempt to solve this problem, A Theory of Justice (1971), was fairly well-received.  Rawls imagined a bunch of reasonable people deciding to form a society from scratch -- what he called the "original position".  Given that these reasonable people disagreed on many things, what kind of society would they make that could accommodate all of them?  Rawls thought they would agree on two principles.  The first principle was that all of them would have as much freedom as they possibly could without infringing on the freedom of others.  This wasn't a new idea; in fact, it came straight from Mill's writings a century earlier.  The second principle was more interesting.  Rawls said that there would be equality of opportunity with regard to positions of power.  He also said that inequalities, which were necessary in a non-Marxist society, would "be of the greatest benefit to the least-advantaged members of society."  This last bit became known as the "difference principle."  What Rawls was getting at, put simply, was that if someone was going to get a leg up from the system, it should be the least fortunate, not the most.  A perfect example of this idea is affirmative action: since we can't make hiring and college admissions completely fair, they should be biased toward those who need them most.

A Theory of Justice was a good system, and it took into account a lot of the problems with earlier liberal theories.  But soon critics, most prominently Michael Sandel, began to pick it apart.  Rawls, they said, hadn't solved the problem of pluralism because he hadn't offered a theory that could supersede all other possible theories.  Some people in the original position might choose Rawls' system, but other people would make other, equally valid systems.  What made Rawls' ideas any better than anyone else's?

Rawls was stung by these criticisms, and he significantly reformulated his theory.  The result was Political Liberalism (1993), a much more innovative and significant philosophy.

Rawls began Political Liberalism by acknowledging that his earlier theory was only one of many competing philosophies -- what he called "comprehensive doctrines" -- held by participants in liberal governments across the world.  However, he noted that most liberals, whatever comprehensive doctrine they held, wanted at least some of the same things other liberals wanted.  For instance, President Bush and President Obama (both "liberals" under the political theory definition) have strikingly different views on American politics, but they both supported the federal bailouts and stimulus packages.  Bush's comprehensive doctrine is pro-business, and Obama's is pro-big government, but it didn't matter that they had different reasons for supporting the same legislation -- the bills got passed anyway, and both presidents were happy about it.

According to Rawls, a large majority of people with different views are able to form what he called an "overlapping consensus" -- a core set of policies and governing principles that are contained within all their comprehensive doctrines.  So long as those people are "reasonable" -- that is, so long as they are rational and willing to work with other reasonable people -- there's no need for them to share the same comprehensive doctrine or agree on fundamental principles.  They can govern just fine without any such philosophical agreement, just by passing laws that all or most of them can agree on for their own different reasons.

This is, of course, exactly how our government works: a bunch of people who disagree on ideas come together and agree on policies.  But Rawls was the first to elevate this practical political solution to the level of a philosophy.  Rawls' great insight was that our political system works precisely because of, not in spite of, the fact that we lack universal philosophical standards of right and wrong.  The reason all previous liberal theories had run afoul of pluralism was that they had divided the world into right (those who agreed with the theory) and wrong (those who disagreed with it).  Rawls replaced this dichotomy with another one: he divided the world into the reasonable (those who were willing to work within the overlapping consensus) and the unreasonable (those who weren't).  Rawls' overlapping consensus was much more inclusive than previous theories, since only people with extreme positions would be unwilling to work with others in the overlapping consensus -- and it also meant that people could only be excluded from the consensus by choice, not for any other reason (deep-seated religious belief for Locke, incorrect beliefs for Kant, ethnic/racial/national origin for Mill).  Anyone was welcome within the overlapping consensus unless they voluntarily absented themselves from it.  And anyone who worked within the overlapping consensus had a voice in shaping what that consensus turned out to be.

* * * * * * * * *

I've given Rawls a lot of credit here, because I think Political Liberalism is one of the most innovative ideas ever formulated.  But I also believe the Rawlsian system is fatally flawed.  To understand why, we need to look at what it means to be "unreasonable" in a Rawlsian sense.

By definition, an unreasonable person is someone who's unwilling to work within the overlapping consensus.  There are several reasons a person might choose not to work within this consensus.  S/he may want to overthrow the system entirely, as Marx did from the left or Turner Diaries author William Pierce did from the right.  S/he may object to some of the people working within the system and feel that she shouldn't have to work with such individuals.  Or s/he may feel that the overlapping consensus is incapable of solving important problems within society.  Let's take each of these cases separately to see the problems they pose for the Rawlsian model.

People who want to overthrow the system, like Marx and Pierce, are generally pretty extreme.  And there aren't many people who are going to cry over the exclusion of either of these guys from the halls of power.  But the problem with Rawls' theory is that it excludes them without providing any logical or moral reason for doing so.  Rather, they are excluded precisely because their view differs from the mainstream (the overlapping consensus).  Rawls' innovation was to eliminate the concept of a "wrong" political view, but in doing so he removed the justifications previous liberal theories had devised for excluding extremists from power.  It's one thing to be told your opinions don't matter because they're morally and logically wrong; it's another to be told they don't matter because, regardless of their merits, most people think they're extreme.  The latter option is familiar as mob rule, as the law of the street -- but no liberal philosophy has ever viewed this as a good thing, until Rawls.

Looking at the second case, we can quickly see that populism is not permitted in the Rawlsian world.  "Throw the bums out," as Ross Perot put it, is a distinctly un-Rawlsian sentiment.  You can't throw the bums out, because the bums want to be there and are willing to work with you.  The only way to get rid of political figures you don't like -- not just to remove them from office, but to prevent them from exercising substantive political influence -- is to wait for them to retire.  Rawls' overlapping consensus is so welcoming, so all-encompassing, that it denies the voting public the right to choose who influences their government.  This is particularly problematic when it comes to powerful corporations and special interests.  Corporate fat cats always want influence and are willing to work with anyone in power, so they can't be removed from a Rawlsian government, even though they usually don't represent the best interests of the people.  Sure, you can vote the party in power out of office, but the corporations will just cosy up to the new party in power, and nothing will change.  There's something profoundly undemocratic about a system where the people have to play Whack-A-Mole with nefarious characters who refuse to stay out of power no matter how many times they're sent packing.

As troubling as these cases are, it's the third case that poses the most problems.  By doing away with the concepts of right and wrong, Rawls has ensured that the de facto "right" is what most people in power think at any one time.  A government based on overlapping consensus operates within the Overton window -- the range of generally acceptable alternatives on any given issue.  The problem isn't just that alternatives outside the Overton window are automatically devalued; it's that for some issues the objective truth lies outside the Overton window.  Global warming is an excellent example.  Most reasonable people (by the Rawlsian definition) agree that the range of possible alternatives ranges from no action (the Bush administration's choice) to the 5-7% carbon emissions reductions proposed by the Kyoto Protocol (at least theoretically Obama's choice).  But the science clearly shows that only a 50% or greater reduction can stave off environmental holocaust.  In the Rawlsian bizarro-world, the science is wrong because it disagrees with the overlapping consensus.  Rawls gives us no way to move beyond the practical in order to achieve the necessary.

* * * * * * * * *

Sadly, we live in that Rawlsian bizarro-world.  There have been plenty of presidents in our history who have elevated the overlapping consensus to a high art through the ideas of "bipartisanship" and "getting things done" -- think of Bill Clinton's "triangulation" or Eisenhower's inveterate moderacy.  But few (perhaps only John F. Kennedy) have venerated the overlapping consensus as itself the supreme good of the nation in the way Barack Obama does.  Few have failed to spend political capital on expansive policies, not because they feared losing reelection, but because they believed doing so would be breaking a sacred trust -- but Obama is one of those few.

Read his books and you'll see that, despite the fact that Obama holds strikingly liberal views on a variety of issues, his anger at the Bush administration is directed not at its policies, but at its politics.  For Obama, Bush's supreme betrayal was in breaking the Rawlsian consensus.  Bush's extreme partisanship, his utter disregard of the Democratic members of his government, turned Americans against each other and polarized the electorate.  For Obama, that was Bush's greatest crime -- because to the President, we are a nation of consensus before we are a nation of laws or dreams or anything else.

It's the only interpretation that explains Obama's baffling and infuriating rejection of progressives and his embrace of the moderate wing of the Republican party.  It's the only interpretation that explains his choice to elevate people like Judd Gregg, Ray LaHood, and John McHugh, who committed the unforgivable sin of voting to impeach a President because they didn't like him, to high posts in his administration.  It's the only interpretation that explains his active support of Republican Arlen Specter against Democrat Joe Sestak.  It's the only interpretation that explains his unwillingness to proceed in passing legislation without Republican support, or to pressure his party's Majority Leader to eliminate the Senate's pernicious filibuster rule and strip Republicans of their last vestiges of power.  Obama does these things not because Mr. 68% in the polls needs the additional support, but because he truly believes that Republicans within the overlapping consensus are more important than Democrats outside it.  The consensus, for Obama, is more important than the outcome.

John Rawls was a great thinker, and Barack Obama is a great man.  But by excluding the unreasonable from meaningful political participation, they have ensured that only mediocrity can emerge from the political system they both venerate.  And in these troubling times, mediocrity just isn't good enough.  So I'm proud to declare myself a member of the unreasonable.  It's the only place where great change happens, where democracy succeeds fully, and where populism reigns.  In the Rawlsian world, where the practical defines the realm of possibility, the necessary simply cannot triumph.


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"It's the only interpretation that explains..." (4.00 / 8)
"It's the only interpretation that explains..."
"It's the only interpretation that explains..."
"It's the only interpretation that explains..."
"It's the only interpretation that explains..."

Repetition after repetition of the same silly claim, and it's the stylistic equivalent of Jeremy Young's superficial and selective misreading of John Rawls to make him fit the con-man Barack Obama's ridiculous political gyrations.

As anyone who ever spent more than a minute with A Theory of Justice already knows, the most important single principle in Rawl's entire ideological structure is maximizing social benefits for the least fortunate members of society.

This is Rawls' famous maximin principle, and it's front and center in every reasonable discussion of John Rawls. Any and all social inequalities are only allowable if they serve "the greatest benefit of the least advantaged members of society." (Political Liberalism, p.6)

Most progressive criticism of Obama concentrates exactly on the absence of this principle in Obama's despicable pandering to the Republican Party, but somehow the obtuse Mr. Young has entirely ignored the (amply documented) Kantian foundation of John Rawls' moral and political philosophy, and constructed an absurd equivalence between a great liberal thinker and the completely unprincipled con-man Barack Obama.


[ Parent ]
There's more Bentham than Kant in this reading of Rawls, (4.00 / 1)
a big mistake when it comes to understanding the great theorist's work (although the same can't be said thusfar of Obama).

[ Parent ]
I can't exactly see Bentham here. (0.00 / 0)
I'm not disagreeing with you, wobbly. I just don't know enough about Bentham to understand your comment. For me the main difference between Rawls and Bentham is the difference between benefits for "the greatest number" and benefits for the least fortunate.

But Bentham is out of my sphere.

More?


[ Parent ]
I could have substituted Spenser or Malthus for Bentham (4.00 / 1)
Nonpartisan's reading of Rawls treats him simply as a consequentialist -  "Rawls has ensured that the de facto "right" is what most people in power think at any one time."  

Rawls's liberalism reserves a robust role for the normative that goes well beyond mere outcomes, and such a reading tortures what Rawls himself saw as his task.  


[ Parent ]
I understand what Rawls saw as his task (0.00 / 0)
My point is that in Political Liberalism (NOT in the rest of his theory), he achieved one part of his task (accommodating pluralism) at the expense of nearly all the others.  Political Liberalism isn't the definitive statement of Rawlsian liberalism, and you don't have to condemn Rawls for this one idea (note that I describe him as "a great thinker," and I mean that).  But it's the one of his ideas that's particularly relevant because of the way Obama's using it.  Obama is stripping PL of the rest of Rawlsian philosophy, and using it in isolation from Rawls' notions of the good.

The Crolian Progressive: as great an adventure as ever I heard of...

[ Parent ]
I don't see the use (0.00 / 0)
of labeling a political style as Rawlsian when doing so emptying Rawls's thought of the a priori.  

What you call Rawlsian could pass for any number of thinkers who discuss the problem of the relationship of democracy and representation to liberalism.  Therefore, I don't see the particular salience in your use of Rawls here.  


[ Parent ]
Joseph Schumpeter's view (0.00 / 0)
of the relation of the electorate to representatives as one of relatively uninterested employers to employees more accurately describes the George W. Bushian transgression that Nonpartisan correctly identifies than anything in Rawls.  

[ Parent ]
Obama as Con-Man? (4.00 / 7)
Invoking John Rawls to explain the pandering behavior of Obama is quite a a bit of a stretch, in my view.

I like the con-man metaphor that Jacob Freeze uses above much better because it gets right to the point.

Obama duped people into voting for him with his phony "Change You Can Believe In" rhetoric.

But once he got into the White House, not only has he failed to change anything much at all, but he is actually aiding and abetting those fighting change.

Putting Geithner and Summers in charge of the financial mess says it all. Letting Democratic lawmakers and their campaign financiers from the private insurance industry cheat the American people out of a single payer health care system is a sacrilege.

Obama is worse than a duplicitous politician. He is a Trojan horse in the White House who is siding with the most egregious predators in Congress and the financial sector whose goal is to make sure that no change occurs.

No amount of theorizing about what drives Obama can explain or excuse his failure to protect the American people from those who have put them and the entire country at the brink of disaster.



[ Parent ]
That's a very well-written comment! (4.00 / 2)
"... a Trojan horse in the White House who is siding with the most egregious predators in Congress..."

That's really a step up from my "con-man" characterization!


[ Parent ]
Glen Ford used the title "Trojan Horse" for Obama (4.00 / 2)
when I had him on my radio show in February 2008.  He said Obama was a brilliant man, but not a good man.  And then said that he was a Trojan Horse.  Having read his very conservative views in his book coupled with his disdain for the movements of the 1960s and the great programs that came out of that, I totally agreed with Glen.  

Glen is the executive editor of blackagendareport.com and the people there have been following Obama forever.

I'm going to have Glen on again this Saturday at 2PM Mountain Time live streaming at kmmsam.com.

For more real lefty ideas listen to Dave Marsh every Sunday at 2PM Eastern on Sirius Left.  He has the great Kevin Alexander Gray on each week.  His review of "Audacity of Hope" was devastating.

Bill Maher said a few years ago "We elect liars".  Yes, and Jacob Freeze is right, we elect con men.  So we need to really understand what the con is ahead of time. And people need to try and find some time in this brutish sharecropper existence to rediscover civic action.

I will buy your book because I am out of ideas about how to get rid of the con men.  I'm mean look at who I worked my ass off for, Jon Tester????


[ Parent ]
The book is free online (4.00 / 1)
Hello FeralCat,

Thanks for your comments, insights and references above.

My book, Re-Inventing Democracy, is free.

You can read it online at www.reinventingdemocracy.us

Would be happy to have your feedback.

Nancy


[ Parent ]
Wow, I've just read a few pages and I'm hooked. (0.00 / 0)
I'm posting this on my website.    

[ Parent ]
The problem with this (4.00 / 2)
is the conflation of A Theory of Justice with Political Liberalism.  Rawls thought they were compatible, and many other commentators agree, but I don't.  In Political Liberalism, Rawls relegates his own Theory of Justice to just one of many competing comprehensive doctrines.  In doing so, he essentially defangs it.

This isn't a conflation of Rawls with Obama; it's a conflation of Political Liberalism with Obama.  For Rawls, Political Liberalism was a tool.  For Obama, it is in itself a comprehensive doctrine -- more important to him than his own personal views.

The Crolian Progressive: as great an adventure as ever I heard of...


[ Parent ]
But perhaps Rawls understood liberalism as a limit condition (0.00 / 0)
for the practice of a type of politics constituted by the Lockean notions of representative government, tolerance, and reason.

Understood as such, what we can conceive of as justice would be dialectically enmeshed by definition with these foundational principles.  


[ Parent ]
Perhaps he did (4.00 / 1)
But I don't see that in his exposition of the overlapping consensus.  And neither do I see it in Obama's behavior.

The Crolian Progressive: as great an adventure as ever I heard of...

[ Parent ]
A weird claim (4.00 / 1)
Jeremy Young (nonpartisan) makes the weird claim that Rawls' "defangs" his theory of justice in Political Liberalism, so that policies advantageous to the rich and oppressive to the less fortunate would still somehow qualify as "liberal," and therefore Obama is still practicing "political liberalism" with his trillion-dollar give-aways to criminal bankers, tax-cuts, flip-flopping about NAFTA and the EFCA, and so on.

This absurd contention has no basis in Political Liberalism, and Rawls took the trouble to make that perfectly clear on several occasions in the text, for example in a note on page 7, where he observes that "some have thought that my working out the ideas of political liberalism meant giving up the egalitarian conception of Theory. I am not aware of any revisions that imply such a change, and think the surmise has no basis."

Mr. Young's diary is a ludicrous attempt to transmogrify the meaning of "liberal" into an infinitely fluid centrism, and there is no support whatsoever for this nonsense anywhere in the work of John Rawls.


[ Parent ]
Interrelated concepts (4.00 / 4)
Allowing opportunity for the disadvantaged increases diversity in the political process.  A diverse political process can exclude unreasonable voices without being oppressive.  A consensus that is insufficiently diverse is in itself unreasonable, and doesn't have moral authority to exclude unreasonable positions.

Obama defends the status quo without seeking to diversify the scope of debate, but we knew that back when he praised Reagan and criticised "mandates" in a health plan.  


[ Parent ]
Process vs outcome (4.00 / 2)
There's a trade-off here.  You can either specify the political process and hope that you get a good outcome or you can specify the outcome you want to reach and hope that you can come up with a good process to get there.  You can't guarantee that A leads to B, no matter how much you want it to be so.  My preference is for coming up with a process that lends authenticity and legitimacy to democratic outcomes, even if those outcomes are "bad" by progressive standards.  I don't believe that adherence to democratic principles guarantees progressive wins.

What I see as a current problem is that there is a dissolving consensus on the fairness of the process.  Personally, I'm increasingly doubtful about the usefulness of our current U.S. Constitution and I am sort of rooting for the state of California to implode politically in order to provide a catalyst for re-opening democratic debate about the consensus for our peculiarly American political process.  Whether it's those on the right talking about secession or those on the left talking about the unfairness of the Electoral College and the Senate, there is a fading agreement about the basic legitimacy of our system.

It's been a long time since I've read Rawls and I never did get more than excerpts and summaries of Political Liberalism.  It seems possible to me that you go to far with the notion of an "overlapping consensus".  The concept may apply merely to the more basic laws such as those that set up government, but not with day-to-day policy.  Rather, the "overlapping consensus" gives authoritative weight to those outcomes produced by a process that we mostly agree with, whether we like it or not.  

In your example of global warming, the overlapping consensus doesn't claim that the science is wrong, it affirms the right of the country to do nothing, even if that is a bad idea.  The democratic principle is that elections have consequences and consequences we don't like still have legitimacy.


Things You Don't Talk About in Polite Company: Religion, Politics, the Occasional Intersection of Both


And that's where we differ (4.00 / 2)
I think the imminent threat of global destruction overrides the right of the country to do nothing.

The Crolian Progressive: as great an adventure as ever I heard of...

[ Parent ]
If it were the only way to fight global warming (4.00 / 1)
Would you favor institution of a dictatorship and the end of democracy?

Things You Don't Talk About in Polite Company: Religion, Politics, the Occasional Intersection of Both

[ Parent ]
Without question (4.00 / 2)
Universal human extinction versus the end of democracy?  Not even a question.

The Crolian Progressive: as great an adventure as ever I heard of...

[ Parent ]
I should add (0.00 / 0)
I don't believe that's necessary though.  I believe the system can be made to work without breaking it.

The Crolian Progressive: as great an adventure as ever I heard of...

[ Parent ]
It's an extreme hypothetical scenario (4.00 / 2)
A thought experiment meant to prime people to think about how broken things have to be before you are willing to overthrow the system.  I tend to evoke very negative reactions when I suggest that we should at least explore the idea of compromise on social issues if it will help address what I consider more important issues such as climate change.  Some people seem outraged that I might actually prioritize other things.

It's a matter of trade-offs.  It sounds like you would be willing to torture if it would somehow stave off the end of the human race.  What if you thought that torture was necessary to save a fraction of humanity?  Some would say torture under no circumstances, others would give a slam-dunk affirmative. (I'm not claiming that I am for torture under some circumstances, just that I can set up equations that mathematically model the decision process for whether or not one believes torture is ever justified.)

As it happens, I am hopeful that global warming can be addressed within our system, more or less, but I don't think it will be possible without affirming the sort of government authority to dictate restrictions on private behavior that liberals have traditionally resisted.  The question I ask myself often is how far should we be willing to go.

Things You Don't Talk About in Polite Company: Religion, Politics, the Occasional Intersection of Both


[ Parent ]
How far should we go? Huh? (4.00 / 3)
Sorry, but you come off as more interested in trade-offs than the resulting policies. This is pretty standard corporatist DLC schtick. Pols do this as a matter of making money (fund raising). I don't know what your motivation is.

With respect to this particular problem of which you speak, there are two problems: AGW itself and Peak Oil. This means we're looking at the choice of 1) doing little to nothing and paying the price in the end (which is probably not bearable by this society) or 2), making deep structural changes to our economy, which will take massive investment and a lot of time. Time which we probably do not have anymore.

By the time you're done making your trade-offs, nothing will come of whatever it is you think you're doing. The current situation with Waxman-Markey illustrates this point rather well. So fine, they'll make their trade-offs and precisely nothing of value will happen. We're back to the starting line and we've just wasted yet another year doing nothing that will actually deal with the problem. Feel better?

Some issues we can take some time with and do a lot of bargaining. AGW and Peak Oil aren't of that type. We have to move off of oil and carbon in general. This is not a multiple choice question.

You need to learn how to distinguish between normal priorities and urgent ones.

"More than any other time in history, mankind faces a crossroads. One path leads to despair and utter hopelessness. The other, to total extinction. Let us pray we have the wisdom to choose correctly." -Woody Allen, My Speech to the Graduates


[ Parent ]
I'm interested in how things work (0.00 / 0)
If you act based on setting a goal and saying it has to be accomplished at all costs, then you get things like Bush's crusade in Iraq.  There's a part of me that wonders if we're facing something like an unwinnable war and we're better off accepting global warming as a given and looking into how we can mitigate the effects.  Either that or figure how to instigate a non-nuclear global war that metaphorically bombs everyone back to the Stone Age and decreases a reliance on technology.

Are there similarities to how the DLC frames things?  Perhaps, but I have different priorities than they do.  They want to compromise on the economic stuff while sticking to liberal orthodoxy on social issues.  I want to do the reverse.  Some within the Democratic coalition will scream bloody murder because they disagree with progressive economic policies or because they would rather prioritize liberal social stances.  I see both groups as enemies.

Things You Don't Talk About in Polite Company: Religion, Politics, the Occasional Intersection of Both


[ Parent ]
Um, no, the DLC is only orthodox in neo-liberal economic terms (4.00 / 4)
Beyond that, they have no orthodoxy. Well, if making money off of the money spigot that is K Street can pass as orthodoxy, I suppose they do have one.

As for the non-nuclear global war, we're already pretty damn close to it. Iran will do the trick nicely and if they're serious about hitting the nuclear facilities, that will in fact involve the offensive use of nukes. So you may get your wish on that one. Time will tell and pretty soon on that count.

The vast bulk of the climatological community is already doubting whether or not AGW can be prevented from causing disaster at this point. Another couple years of backward looking data will tell us whether or not that is true. But from a policy making position, how would you define the National Interest in all this? How many cities (and their populations which will have to move somewhere else) are you willing to sacrifice for the sake of inane horse trading? Has that even entered your mind? More than half our population and economy is on the coasts. Just do the math.

While I admit I am increasingly tending towards hyperbole on this issue (out of sheer frustration), you seem to think AGW is something of a mild irritant at worst. This, of course, is the CW in DC. You say you once studied engineering and yet you seem to be rather illiterate on the topic, which would surprise me coming from a technically savvy person.

Some within the Democratic coalition will scream bloody murder because they disagree with progressive economic policies or because they would rather prioritize liberal social stances.  I see both groups as enemies.

This is incoherent. Perhaps you should try again. This is kind of a modified Straw Man argument in which both sides are straw men--and you oppose both of them! It makes no sense. You have to be more specific when you write of "groups." What groups are you talking about?

"More than any other time in history, mankind faces a crossroads. One path leads to despair and utter hopelessness. The other, to total extinction. Let us pray we have the wisdom to choose correctly." -Woody Allen, My Speech to the Graduates


[ Parent ]
You seem to misunderstand me (0.00 / 0)
I'm pretty much willing to put a lot of things on the table in order to get more progressive outcomes on specifically health care and global warming.  However, I am not sure if I am willing to compromise on reaching such things through a process that is at least vaguely democratic.  I'm willing to see bad outcomes if the proper process is not followed, such as letting a murderer go free if the police don't follow proper procedures like respecting Miranda rights.

The areas I am willing to compromise if it win significant gains in those priorities would be those culture war subjects beloved by the Religious Right and certain things in Afghanistan.  Single-issue groups interested in specifically those areas that I am willing to compromise who would complain about such deals would be the ones I am labeling as "the enemy".  I am sure you can figure out who they are.  I wouldn't be shocked if some of them happen along and jump on me in this thread, as they are prone to do.

Things You Don't Talk About in Polite Company: Religion, Politics, the Occasional Intersection of Both


[ Parent ]
Thanks! (0.00 / 0)
Great post about the problem of outcomes and process.

Conservative Social Democracy aims for outcomes - a fiscally sound social benefit system, but a real and comprehensive benefit system, not a holey mess. They concentrate realistically on the process needed (fiscal policy) to accomplish these outcomes. The left Social Democrats focus on roughly the same outcomes but are too often careless about the mens (fiscal policy).

We are stuck with liberalism (mild alleviation of the constant crisis of the underprivileged) versus conservatism (retaining the privileges of the privileged).


[ Parent ]
Good article, but there is a glaring flaw. (4.00 / 3)
Corporate fat cats always want influence and are willing to work with anyone in power, so they can't be removed from a Rawlsian government, even though they usually don't represent the best interests of the people.  Sure, you can vote the party in power out of office, but the corporations will just cosy up to the new party in power, and nothing will change.

That's exactly what corporate interests did with the Democratic Party.  Seeing that the Republicans had become so synonymous with failure and fascism, corporate backers hitched their wagons to the Democrats - with Obama their chief investment.  Just look at everything he's done as a politician, ignoring his empty words, and you'll see that he has always been closer to George W. Bush and Dick Cheney than most people care to realize, much less admit.

Bush is pro-business, but he is also pro-big government.  Obama is pro-big government, but he is also pro-business.  The difference between Obama and Bush is not in kind, but in style.  You cannot deny that on many issues, such as illegal detention and illegal surveillance, Obama has tacked farther to the right even than Bush and Cheney.

It is wrong to call Rawls a great thinker and Obama a great man.  Rawls was an idiot, and Obama is just another degenerate politician who only serves one interest: that of power for the few at the expense of the many.



You know (4.00 / 5)
I don't disagree with this one bit, and I thought my article made that clear.  I'm trying to channel my inchoate anger at Obama into something meaningful, though I'll admit that's not easy for me.

The Crolian Progressive: as great an adventure as ever I heard of...

[ Parent ]
I know. I'm just providing my own take. (4.00 / 1)
The way I see it, any honest criticism of Obama (which includes yours) must be backed by frank admission that he is a right-wing Democrat who embraces most if not all of Bush-Cheney policies.  Giving him credit for anything when he has not earned it really just waters down what would otherwise be a hard-hitting article.  I realize you're trying to be diplomatic in offering up criticism of Obama, holding out the possibility that maybe he is at heart a good man who means well, but such thinking needs to be based on the facts in his record - and there's simply nothing there that indicates Obama is anything but what Adolph Reed, Jr., called "a vacuous opportunist" (which he did in the May Issue of "The Progressive).



[ Parent ]
I Never Understood Obama's Fanatacism Over Consensus (4.00 / 11)
But this:

For Obama, Bush's supreme betrayal was in breaking the Rawlsian consensus.  Bush's extreme partisanship, his utter disregard of the Democratic members of his government, turned Americans against each other and polarized the electorate.  For Obama, that was Bush's greatest crime -- because to the President, we are a nation of consensus before we are a nation of laws or dreams or anything else.

now makes perfect sense to me.  Perfect, nauseating sense.

So, the question now becomes, how do we deal with this?

Because it also seems quite clear that the meaning of "consensus" is pretty damn slippery, given the vast gulfs that exist, say between the popular will on the Wall Street Bailout and the position that Obama took.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


Perhaps (4.00 / 6)
But it does strike me as odd that someone as smart and well-read as Obama, who has had some experience of the world and specifically of injustice, prejudice and foul play, can still be this seemingly naive and ideological about process, i.e. that it's possible for people of widely divergent ideas AND political behaviors (including, especially, ones that are clearly dishonest, despicable and anti-democratic) to come together to forge a meaningful consensus, without the less honorable members of such a consensus having this consensus effectively imposed upon them. I.e. liberalism only works with liberal-minded AND acting people. Once you let non-liberals into the tent (i.e. those who don't merely disagree with liberal ideas and policies, but refuse to behave in a liberal manner, i.e. fair, honest and respectful), you make meaningful liberalism impossible, or at least very unlikely and watered down.

Put another way, while you can get football players to play baseball, however clumsily, you can't get bleacher hooligans to do so, because they'll just end up pissing on the infield and hitting the other team's players over the head with beer bottles. The ONLY way to do this, barring a miraculous transformation of such people into civilized (i.e. liberal) types, is to either force them to behave properly, which itself is unliberal (i.e. liberal hawkism), or to create positive and negative incentives for them to do so, i.e. rewards for good behavior and punishments for bad behavior, hope for the best, but otherwise ignore them to the extent possible. But you can't just invite them in and expect them to act nicely. They won't.

Again, Obama is either massively naive in his understanding of how politics works, or else is simply not up for a fight, and calling it something else to avoid being accused of such. I think that it's some of both, but more the latter than the former. I.e. cowardice posing as Kumbaya, but also a bit of Kumbaya for good measure. But maybe I'm wrong, and he really does believe in Kumbaya, and it only looks like cowardice to some of us (and perhaps is in some cases). In which case, he truly does believe in his own cultism. Oh boy. Because at the very least, most of these people will never agree with him on core liberal ideas and policies. They're just too far gone. And beyond that, many if not most of them will likely never play fair. So what's the point of even trying, except to set them up for a fall, which the cultists believe is precisely what he's doing, but which I don't (anymore, but used to, I will admit). 11D Chess!

And I better be careful. Stuff like this can get me blogswarmed as a hater on DKos!

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton


[ Parent ]
Well Here's The Deal (4.00 / 4)
I think there are two thing going on.  One's psychological, the other is conceptual.  This diary makes perfect sense to me conceptually.

If Obama buys into this as a matter of faith, then it also severely distorts his perceptions so that he doesn't see the obvious bad faith we see--at least not in the same terms.  He sees it, perhaps, as a curable bad habit.  As a character flaw, maybe.  But above all, my sense is that he sees such things as challenges for him to overcome.  "Most people don't think we can make a deal here, but I think we can"--that kind of thing.

In short, while I might agree with your assesments as an objective description--at least as a first approximation--I don't think that's how Obama sees it at all.  I think there's a complex system of denial going on, and that system is at least partially rooted in this political philosophy, and partially rooted in the combination of his personal experience and psychology.  Figuring all that out more specifically is what would get us to a second approximation description.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I've never been been deeply ideological (4.00 / 3)
That is, while I believe deeply in certain core values that are essential to liberalism and progressivism, e.g. equality of treatment and opportunity, fairness, justice, liberty, freedom from oppression, community, etc., I've never been "religious" about HOW to achieve them, and find people who do to be off-putting, and strike me as ideological for largely psychological reasons (if, as you say, such people are persuaded by more by faith than evidence and logic).

I.e. such people appear to have a psychological NEED to deeply believe in a superior path to nirvana that offers all the answers, that they eventually find in a form that works for them, and who then become true believers. E.g. Trotskyites, Stalinists, Randians, etc. Even when such ideologies are grounded in some empirical and rational bases, there's still a huge faith-based aspect to them that turns me off to them.

And if that explains Obama and his supposedly deep belief in the ideology of bipartisanship (or whatever one chooses to call it), then it's one that I personally find hard to understand because it doesn't align with my own non-"religious" approach to ideology and politics. I.e. I don't get true believers of ANY persuasion, right, left, center, whatever. Plus, THIS particular ideology further doesn't make sense to me because it doesn't comport with my knowledge and experience of reality, which tells me that there are certain people with whom one simply cannot forge a MEANINGFUL consensus and working relationship on certain matter, not matter how one goes about it. Thus, not only its faith-based aspect, but its evidentiary aspect (or lack thereof), makes me seriously question this ideology's legitimacy.

I.e. I don't have serious doubts about Obama's apparent embrace of the cult of bipartisanship merely because it strikes me (and you) as faith-based and psychological in nature to a large extent (although this is certainly a good reason to question it), but also because it just doesn't make any sense, based on what I know of and have experienced with people and politics, which is often adversarial, and at times deliberately and unavoidably malicious. Call me a liberal Hobbesian, if you will. I want and believe in liberal progress, but not as the result of Kumbaya, but of sustained conflict, at least in part (but not exclusively).

Kumbaya might work when you're dealing with reasonable, mature and decent people who might disagree about a lot but be able and willing to work together in common to achieve common goals (and to even decide what those goals are), but it simply doesn't work when you're dealing with crazy, malicious, dishonest, and sometimes even monstrous people. It just doesn't. And anyone who does believe that it works, is dreaming. And if Obama does indeed believe in it, then, given how smart and experienced he is, it can only be due to psychological reasons. I.e. he NEEDS to believe in it, due to some psychological needs and quirks.

And yes, of course this is a first pass approximation. That's what blogs are about. The real work is done elsewhere, and simply gets discussed and disseminated here.

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton


[ Parent ]
I'm No Ideologue Either (4.00 / 3)
I see ideologies as maps or tools.  So I'm of a similar frame of mind.  But I don't think psychological need alone necessarily explains those who are more ideologically fixed.  One aspect is simply the Kegan level of cognitive development.  But in Obma's case I do think there's an element of need, one that's particularly messed up, since the ideology involves a belief that it's non-ideological.  And this diary gives me the most plausible explanation of how Obama construes it that I've ever heard--construes it in a way that hides from itself how ideological it actually is.

I differ from most other Obama critics, so far as I can tell, in that I've always felt there was a significant amount of self-deception involved, and this is the first description of what that might look like that's made a lick of sense to me.


"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I know someone who reminds me a lot of Obama (4.00 / 5)
Around the same age, experienced parental neglect early on (less actual abandonment than lack of affection and attention), got into trouble as a youth in a rebellious streak (in ways that were worse than, but similar to, Obama's rebellious "fuck you world" phase), got his act together in his late teens but still without much direction, finally found his path, applied himself and worked hard, and eventually transformed into a successful adult, professionally and personally. A real "He done good" story, that's genuinely to be commended.

Except, there were some short cuts taken along the way, intellectually and psychologically. Intellectually, he bought into that whole "I'm ok, you're ok, there's no such thing as a bad person" mantra that was so popular in the 70's, such that to this day, he denies that there are some people in this world with whom you simply cannot make peace or work with, and that you'll just burn yourself out trying (and he has), when instead you have to either fight them, avoid them, or work around them. While on the one hand this mentality allowed him to contend with a lot of crap that he probably had no choice but to contend with while coming up, on the other hand, now that he's a success and shouldn't have to contend with such crap, it compels him to continue to contend with it, to his detriment.

And psychologically, he became emotionally distant and detached from people. Funny, charming, fun to be with, easygoing, etc., but nevertheless not someone that you're ever likely to really get to know deep down, on any intimate level. He just doesn't trust people. Which kind of belies that whole "There are no bad people" mantra. But then lots of people possess such contradictions between how they feel and how they think. On the one hand he pretends to be able to, and tries, to get along with everyone, yet on the other hand it's clear that he doesn't trust ANYONE. I've never quite been able to get very close to him, despite knowing him for years, and likely never will.

I only bring him up because he reminds me uncannily of Obama, in this and other ways (he can also be disengenuous at the drop of a hat, almost unself-consciously, and even lie to himself, and he's also smart, although not Obama smart), and since I know him, but not Obama, I can sort of better understand the dynamic that's going on with Obama by thinking of this person. I.e. this whole embracing of an untenable sociopolitical ideology of being able to get along and work with anyone on the one hand, yet being cool and distant and untrusting (and thus, incidentally, closed to criticism) on the other. Huh?!?

We are, I suppose, all victims, to one extent or another, of our psychological makeup and demons (or angels), no matter how hard we try not to, and how much we might kid ourselves that we're not. And Obama's no different. And perhaps at least part of the reason that he appears to embrace this cult of Kumbayaism is that he psychologically needs to.

Damn, comments like this would REALLY get me into trouble at DKos!

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton


[ Parent ]
Sound Like You Have Your Key For Understanding Obama (4.00 / 1)
A concrete model is often better than an abstract one.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
And I will repeat (4.00 / 3)
It's principally their leaders, with whom no meaningful working relationship can be forged, that Obama is kidding himself about. I do see some room for reaching out to and finding some common ground with some of their followers, and maybe even "converting" some of them to at least a somewhat more liberal and enlightened way of thinking. But the leaders are politically dead to us forever, by their own choice, not ours.

Sorry Mr. Rawls. Some people DO need to be excluded.

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton


[ Parent ]
I'd agree with you, but it's hard to argue that Kumbaya isn't politically- (4.00 / 2)
at least in the sense of swaying an electorate- successful for Obama. Wildly so, really. Stylistically he's different than Clinton, but it strikes me that the need to be liked that's present in both of them is what, y'know, gets them elected. And yet it condemns both to such risk averse policies that ultimately they minimize their own potential for impact.  
       All of which is really to say that a psychological examination of Obama is incomplete without- well, something along the lines of before you accuse me, better look to yourself. You not being kovie, but you in the larger sense, the American electorate. Why can't we get beyond a cult of personality, even, as you say, in a political blog such as Kos, which widely rejects the norms of the MSM?

[ Parent ]
I Think It's More Like Adding Another Trophy To His Case (4.00 / 2)
than the need to be liked that motivates Obama. In that sense he reminds me of Richard Nixon. Also like Nixon, Obama was known to be a stanch liberal in private life, but someone so unprincipled in his political philosophy, he'll disregard his political philosophy at the drop of a dime if it meant winning by any means necessary. I remember Chomsky and Nader saying in interviews that Nixon was perhaps the last president that feared the power of liberals, thus he extended and continued many progressive domestic initiatives while in office. The same is true for Obama fearing the Rethuglicans and continuing many of their policies. They both feared conflict with the supposedly predominant political establishment.

I know some would say that's sacrilegious to compare Obama to a discredited president like Tricky Dicky, but I can't help to see some parallels.


[ Parent ]
Interesting Comparison (4.00 / 1)
Obama doesn't have Nixon's psychology.  Or his degree of experience.  But the dynamics of accommodation you point to are certainly strikingly similar.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Obama reminds me more of JFK (0.00 / 0)
Initially, Kennedy opposed plans for the March on Washington because he generally seemed to think that grassroots civil rights efforts were counter-productive to actual change, but he did support the March when it was inevitable that it was going to happen.  Despite that, I believe Kennedy had a commitment to advancing civil rights, but at a pace of his own choosing, to the consternation of black leaders.

Things You Don't Talk About in Polite Company: Religion, Politics, the Occasional Intersection of Both

[ Parent ]
I've Commented On Obama's Similarities To JFK For Years (0.00 / 0)
And I can only hope that, like JFK, Obama will help inspire action from below that goes well beyond anything he might imagine.

But the Nixon comparison is one I hadn't really thought about before.  And it seems like a pretty good one.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Also (4.00 / 2)
When I say that these are people that we literally cannot work with because they're too dishonest, mean-spirited, malicious, etc., I'm referring specifically to today's GOP and conservative leaders, not only in politics but in academia, punditry and the media, think tanks, PAC's, etc. E.g. the McConnells, Cantors, Gingriches, Limbaughs, Hannity's, Scaifes, Aileses, Wills, Krauthammers, Kristols, Cheneys, etc. We simply cannot work with these people. They're too far gone. And if Obama thinks otherwise, then he's a fool. He might be able to co-opt them, or fool them, or trap them. But that doesn't appear to be what he's doing (i.e. 11D chess). Maybe I'm wrong, but it doesn't seem so to me. And they're not that easily foolable.

On the other hand, I do believe that there are people on the other side with whom we can work, if approached properly. Not because we have much common ideological ground, but because they're not intractably committed to destroying liberalism--i.e. we at least have some common procedural ground, an ability and willingness to work together HONESTLY to bridge or at least find a way to live with our differences. But they're not the ones we need to work with, because they currently don't have real power, and likely never will (and Obama's been gobbling them up in any case). But the real power brokers of today's right are simply too far gone for us to be able to work with meaningfully. Co-opt, contain, do end runs around, ignore, yes. But work with? No freaking way. They are--or should be--politically dead to us.

Yet Obama won't go there. Pity.

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton


[ Parent ]
I See The Problem Differently (4.00 / 6)
The problem isn't that Obama can't hold his own with these bad faith actors.  At one level, certainly, he can run rings around them.  

No, the problem is that he should be throwing them in jail and throwing away the key, and instead he's more interested in wooing them and shooing the likes of you and me.  Which would be fine if they had a way to deal with global warming, so that human civilization would survive at much the same level is today, if not better.  But since they don't even believe that global warming exists, that's sort of a problem.  And that's just the biggest problem we face, not the only one.

To summarize: the problem isn't whether he can win.  The problem is he's playing the wrong game.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I think that we're saying much the same thing (4.00 / 5)
in different ways. Sure he CAN run rings around them, in the sense of pretending to need them and care about their opinion and then doing more or less what he wanted to do without their support (even if in watered down form, although a lot of that has to do more with Obama's issues and accomodation with conservative Dems than with Repubs).

And yet for whatever reason, he chooses not to. I.e. he grants them more than he politically needs to, especially on national security and civil liberties matters. Even though he can PLAY with them and show them up as the charlatans and liars that they are, he instead chooses to WORK with them and grant them a respect that they clearly do not deserve and which only empowers them at a time when he needs to be stomping on them.

The olive branches that he hands them aren't symbolic. They appear to be real. Which makes no sense with these monsters, not only because it's not politically necessary, and not only because they ARE monsters with whom we cannot possible work, but because it's politicall stupid and self-defeating. It's like showing pity to the evil emperor just when you've got him beaten. Um, WHY?!? He's EVIL--KILL HIM!!! (Politically and metaphorically, of course.)

Maybe you're right, and it's not weakness or cowardice on his part that's causing him to reach out to them, but a genuine belief in the power of Kumbaya--as practiced by Obama. It's like Othello trying to make peace with Iago, because he sees the "good" in him (as opposed to Hamlet trying to make peace with Claudius, because he's a vacillating this coward). WTF?!?

Or, maybe, to return to the Star Wars theme, Luke seeing the "good" in Darth Vader, and refusing to kill him off, even though he can. (The fact that he's also his father and WAS once good makes it all the more apt, as a psychological analogy, I think.)

What I don't get is how someone this smart, experienced, and seemingly sane, can believe in this crap. Mitch McConnell is not his father, who's NEVER coming back!

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton


[ Parent ]
Use Your Intuition, Kovie! (4.00 / 4)
Without this model of how Obama's thinking, there's this huge bafflement about his psychology.  Call it a big black box.

This model is like a light saber.  That plus your intuition about how Obama's reacting psychologically gives you a lot better shot at making sense of him than just having the big black box.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Maybe it'll be easier with my eyes closed (4.00 / 1)
Here, I'll put on the helmet.

Thank you, Obi-Paul!

And use the Schwartz!

Oh, wait, I didn't mean it that way... The Mel Brooks movie!

(My second reference to a Brooks movie today, the other being the fart scene in Blazing Saddles in response to a really dumb diary on DKos.)

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton


[ Parent ]
One final thing (4.00 / 1)
It also just occured to me that these people, the bad-faith power brokers on the right with whom we cannot possibly work, well, they too appear to be psychologically driven, IMO. Except that, as opposed to Obama, they appear to be driven by some pretty dark and disturbing ones, ones fueled by anger, hatred and resentment, and a will to raw power for its own sake, and not by some desire to do good in order to overcome some past bad and prevent some future bad.

It's almost a Cain and Abel sort of thing. Sort of.

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton


[ Parent ]
The set up (0.00 / 0)
Part of what Obama tries to do with his insistence on wide participation is to draw out his potential opposition, to get them to expose their positions and the strategies they might use to oppose him later. He is a fighter who takes a very long view, and for right now he is more focused on process issues like consensus than he may be later, after he has consolidated power. The Sotomayor pick is a good example of his current approach. The pick does a lot to consolidate power, and both draws out and weakens his opposition.

I won't pretend to know exactly what Obama's eventual goals are, and I don't like everything he's done so far, but I am pretty sure he thinks of this year as the opening round of an eight year fight.

Nobody gets to be president without being extremely competitive, with an almost absurd fixation on personal power. Obama hides it well, but I think a lot of progressive criticism of Obama underrates his motivation to increase and consolidate power. Ideology is a secondary motivation at the moment. I believe it will be more important later.

ec=-8.50 soc=-8.41   (3,967 Watts)


[ Parent ]
This is the 11D chess take on his approach, of course (4.00 / 3)
I used to be tempted by it. I'm not so sure anymore. We're talking a level of fakeout so vast, it boggles the mind and would need a team of clerks to keep up with. And even if it IS what he's up to, it strikes me as WAY too ambitious and clever by half to be likely to succeed. When has this EVER worked? Who's even tried this, in US history, let alone succeeded at it?

I simply do not believe that Obama, or anyone, could possibly be this smart and talented to pull it off, and if this is what he's up to, he may well find himself trapped by his own over-cleverness once all those markers come due. Is he really going to punk the banksters and insurance industry and MIC and spooks and so on and get away with it? I think not.

But I'm not at all convinced that this IS what he's up to.

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton


[ Parent ]
On what planet (4.00 / 4)
do you consolidate power by pissing off and betraying your allies?  

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
Too Late (4.00 / 4)
It's past the expiration date on the label for this one. Sadie and Kovie are both right.  This doesn't explain why he started bombing civilians his first week in office, why he started defending Bush era "intelligence" policies, why he accepted a stimulus "compromise" that left state governments to make massive anti-stimulative cuts, why he failed to require meaningful restrictions on banks getting bailouts, the list goes on and on.  None of these policies were necessary for an 11D chess scenario, they all pissed on his and off his base, and they imperiled his long-term chances of policy success.

It's an axiom of politics that a President is never more powerful than in his year in office.  You don't consolidate power for later.  You use your power when you have it.  And if you do that well, you have altered the landscape so that the game favors you, even when the dynamics shift.

This is what Reagan did.  If only Obama understood that much about Reagan, I might have forgiven all he misunderstood.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Obama has more power now (0.00 / 0)
than he did on inauguration day. Bush was more powerful after 9/11 than he was his first year. I  expect  Obama to be more powerful in early 2011 than he is today.

My observation was not about a 11D chess game, just that Obama's drive, like most presidents, is more influenced by a struggle for more power than it is by ideology or policy goals. It is not that I am expecting him to do anything that I especially like, it's just that I think power is one of the most important things to him or any president.

I think what Obama's behavior makes clear it that he does not believe that full approval from people like us is necessary for him to increase his power at this point.

ec=-8.50 soc=-8.41   (3,967 Watts)


[ Parent ]
Then you must have a (4.00 / 4)
strange idea of what "power" is.

Already I am beginning to wonder -- if the election were held today, would he win? Would the same people who voted for him, gave him money and volunteered to help him do so again, knowing what they do now?  

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
Paul (0.00 / 0)
I'm humbled by your promotion, and by your comments.  Thank you, truly.

The Crolian Progressive: as great an adventure as ever I heard of...

[ Parent ]
Obama's overlapping consensus - not Rawls' (0.00 / 0)
Well for Rawls, the relevant 'consensus' relates to acceptance of principles of government, which usually take the form of a constitution. So if Obama were really a Rawlsian, he'd be committed to upholding laws no matter what.

I'm not saying he is or isn't doing that; I'm just saying that if he is holding political consensus as a more important virtue than the law, there is nothing Rawlsian about it.


[ Parent ]
I think a significant (0.00 / 0)
problem for Obama is that he is not an economist.  There is a similarity, I think between Obama and his economists and LBJ and his advisors on Vietnam.  LBJ's instincts, if some of the tapes are to be believed. were to stay out of Vietnam.  Instead, the "wise men" convinced him to overule his gut instinct.

For Obama, the problem is arguably worse.  There is a poverty of thought on the left in the economics profession.  Even someone like Krugman pretty much ignores the implications of Globalization.

The entire context of "reasonable debate" is skewed to the right in many ways because the profession that defines that debate is skewed right.  Too many on the left have never recovered from the collapse of communism and its impact on the relevance of Marx. The typical reaction was either of complete capitulation to neo-classical economics or increasingly futile attempts to revive some shred of Marxist thought.   It is also worth noting that Keynes himself was out of favor among much of the profession until this crisis.  

For Obama, then, "reasonable debate" contains within it an enourmous blindspot to the fundemental force in economics today.

My fear is that it will prove fatal.  


[ Parent ]
I Think You're Making Excuses For Obama Here (4.00 / 1)
There are plenty of critical economists around--not as many percentage-wise as we might like, but plenty enough to give good solid advice to any President who wants it.  Even Nobel Prize winners like Stiglitz are well to the left of Obama's inner circle.  And most of the economists speaking out before the stimulus was passed were saying that it wasn't as big as it should have been.  Figures ranged up to twice what was passed.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
interesting essay (4.00 / 1)
and goes a long way to explain Obama's failure to confront torture.

One of your best diaries in a long time. (4.00 / 1)
Thanks Paul, this was very interesting. Moreso than some of your detailed, analytical pieces (not that they are bad, just sometimes a bit obscure). It provides a good framework for thinking about what Obama is doing.

This does not lead me to automatically condemn Obama (like some) for being less-than-radical, in fact, I can see where his Rawlsian approach may be useful if not necessary. I can wish that he would follow a more radical leadership role or faster implementation of policies, but I can understand that the reality of the political situation might suggest following a more pragmatic approach.

There is always a tension between getting our best or most radical ideas implemented and maintaining a  broad enough consensus to succeed. Get too far ahead and you give an opening to political enemies. Too cautious and you don't actually implement anything. While I think the American populace can be persuaded to accept quicker implementation of radical policies, the rest of the political establishment, both moneyed interests, media and Democratic politicians have a lot more inertia.

First, in terms of some kind of Rawlsian consensus, it is politically beneficial for Obama to build broad agreement in order isolate the extremists on the Republican fringe. They won't go quietly into the night, but to the extent that Obama "looks reasonable" he invalidates their appeal, and validates liberal ideas for the broadest slice of the population.

Second, the Republican horse ain't dead yet, but Corporate influence is already moving into the Democratic Party. I don't see the Blue Dogs as an ideological bloc, rather a demonstration that power interests have many ways to pursue their power interests. The political reality is that even writing of the Republicans, Obama needs these votes to get anything accomplished.

Third, I'm not yet seeing the broad swell of popular insurrection that would push Obama or other US politicians to move more radically. I think people are hurting, maybe pretty angry, and they might even agree with us on a number of issues, but complacency (or a sense of being disenfranchised) rules. Maybe Obama could lead harder, but nothing's really going to happen unless the people push harder.

Fourth, there is the dimension of time. We all want faster progress. But, political movements usually build slowly (before perhaps showing sudden jumps). It isn't just about elections in 2008, 2010 or 2012. It takes more than a couple of cycles for new politicians to gain credentials.

Here in Colorado, we have a huge, embedded establishment of Democratic politicians who have built their careers on avoiding rocking the boat, especially with business interests. We just don't have a new crop of radical new faces, let alone radicals with sufficient resumes or name recognition.


In the interest of full disclosure (0.00 / 0)
I should note that it was I, not Paul, who penned this piece.  But thank you for your kind words.

The Crolian Progressive: as great an adventure as ever I heard of...

[ Parent ]
My apologies. (4.00 / 1)
Of course that was noted at the top of the diary, but i had forgotten it by the end.

[ Parent ]
The discussion never becomes about the merits of a policy proposal or what would be the best for (4.00 / 1)
country but discussion centers around that which idolizes the 'consensus', hence the worship of 'bipartisanship'

Maybe that's why I have said too many times since January to  a few activist friends( read Obama loyalists first, last, and always), you want me to applaud?

Give me something to cheer about besides the goal of bi-partisanship, let him use the political capital  he has to achieve something as lasting and transformative as Social Security and Medicare....

Which President had the tag "Era of Good Feelings' assigned to his tenure? Monroe I think.....but I can't shake the feeling that Obama would dearly LOVE to have that assigned to him as well......it's a useless tag without accomplishments because our problems are so big.

 


It is an interesting hypothetical. (0.00 / 0)
So I'm proud to declare myself a member of the unreasonable.  It's the only place where great change happens, where democracy succeeds fully, and where populism reigns

I think this sums up most liberal criticisms of Obama pretty well.

I think in many ways my support of Obama's thought process over yours is because I can see the effects of both put into action in designing software.  

I think yours is something that relaxes the mind and is both mentally enriching and very calming.  It teaches you how to build things and really expands your ability to program.

But the problem with that way of thinking shows in how you describe global warming

You take an inherent unknown (the effects of global warning) and assign a 100% chance of a specific course of events.  Your way of thinking can't deal with the unknown.

http://transgendermom.blogspot....


OTOH, *this* canny explanation of Obama had the virtue of... (0.00 / 0)
being written when he could have been productively challenged about his pathological "centrism":

http://www.correntewire.com/ob...


Well, That Was A Great Political Argument (4.00 / 6)
Which is not really the same thing.  Lambert didn't try to explain why Obama believed as he did, he was making the case for why it was wrong-headed.  And actually, the logical case for that was much simpler than what Lambert laid out.  He had to beef it up because he was making a political case as well--in the middle of a campaign, no less.

For me, the case is just this simple--there's not one case in American history where a major problem has been solved on a bipartisan basis, other than defending the country militarily.  (And most of our bipartisan militarism has had nothing to do with defending our country.)  

So, really, Obama is proposing a problem-solving method that has never worked.  Not for the scale of problems we face.  

It doesn't even require an argument to refute that.  If you're proposing something that's never worked before, the burden of proof lies with you.  

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
True, Lambert didn't explain *why* Obama proffered a completely wrong-headed approach (4.00 / 3)
Merely that he was doing so, a fact that was strangely unexamined at the time.

Of course, bipartisanship not only had never worked, it was insanely untimely in our era.

Now, one could claim that kissing Reagan's posthumous ass was necessary and effective to getting elected. That wouldn't be true, but when did such concerns ever trouble a transcendent movement?

If only there had been some kind of electronic medium by which progressives could have critiqued the candidates and pressed them to champion the liberal policies that the public was ready to support and which the country badly needed....


[ Parent ]
Obama is a politician, at the least (4.00 / 3)
Good essay and discussion, thank you. However, as commentors note, this essay does not provide a complete model of what underlies Obama's decisions and method of working.

I would question the purpose of trying to develop any model of Obama's decision process beyond provoking discussion. Clearly the President is a politician of some caliber. Clearly we as a progressive community need to apply pressure to get what we want in terms of policy. Clearly Obama's personal history, education, and life experience give progressives more opportunities for success than with Bush. But I don't see Obama's non-progressive decisions as anything more than a politician responding to pressures and, as opportunity permits, blending in his own views, his own ideals.

It infuriated me, but did not surprise me, that Obama voted for telecom immunity four days after Independance Day last summer. That is when I realized Obama is nothing more than a politician. I would have liked FDR, or the trust busting Teddy Roosevelt, but this is 2009, not the 1930s. As a community, we need to pressure politicians to do the right thing. We need to educate other voters to enlist more support and build pressure. We need to play our part in our political system.

It might be nice to have a model for how Obama makes decisions. But he is at heart a politician and, therefore, susceptible to pressure of all kinds.


It doesn't mean to be a "complete model" (4.00 / 3)
Rather, it means to explain an aspect of Obama's thought that has previously been baffling.

The Crolian Progressive: as great an adventure as ever I heard of...

[ Parent ]
Exactly (4.00 / 2)
Your essay is a terrific start point for discussion. I especially like the exchanges between kovie and Rosenberg, among others. But at the end of the discussion at best we're only more enlightened. We still have to go out and play our role in our political system. We have to pressure politicians if all stripes. We have to educate, cajole, and work to be heard. Our chances to sway Obama are better than with Bush, for many reasons, but Obama won't do the right things without pressure. No politician will.

[ Parent ]
Post-industrial politics (4.00 / 4)
What threatens us now isn't just an obviously too-narrow political consensus (too narrow when considered sub specie aeternitatis, that is.)  A far more significant threat is that this consensus is the de facto guardian of a gigantic and delicate social and economic construction, part dynamo and part house of cards, in which we're all embedded. To deviate in any significant way from conventional wisdom -- by revolution, say, or even by entertaining the thought of genuine democracy -- could undo far more than was undone on that rude wooden bridge 234 years ago. It doesn't help much, if you're sitting in the hot seat, to be told that the radical way is, in fact, the safest way forward -- especially if it's true.

That, more than anything else, seems to me to underlie Obama's hesitancy. Even if his psychology, his training, his instincts as a politician, or whatever have you, are what you say they are, even the best and the brightest have a right to be daunted by the sheer inertia and fragility of the status quo which Obama has been given to reform.

I shouldn't weigh in here, as I'm in the process of writing something myself which comes at this same dilemma from a different tangent altogether, and I'm finding it difficult enough to separate the threads of my own argument without having someone else add a whole new skein.

It's damned tempting, though, I have to admit. Well done, Nonpartisan.


It's his hesitancy that is baffling if we are to believe that he is as smart (4.00 / 4)
as everyone says.

Hesitancy in the face of problems that cry out for action because he pauses to accommodate and appeal to the very people which are almost completely responsible for the problems to begin with is incomprehensible to me and many others.

That acronym 'WWJD' is helpful only as a prompter....there is a moment in our collective history when it was clear that there was no more accommodation, no more appeals to the King and Parliament but a strong sizable group advocated just that thing.....which philosophical side would Obama have been on in Philadelphia? What would you have done in Philadelphia in 1775-76.........can you picture him sticking his neck out like the MA and VA delegations? I can't. I can't assign a leadership role to him in that setting except as one who would advocate one more attempt at reconciliation with Great Britain.Maybe he would have written as eloquently as Jefferson for the opposite viewpoint but sticking his neck out??? I realize that this is a hypothetical exercise but one can place Presidents in that setting( Truman - I have no doubt about where to place him) and theorize about their reactions/actions and it seems that  moments of clear choices:one way will produce this and the flip side of the argument diametrically opposite....those times do not come along that often. Some leaders relish those times. Either reject the status quo and forge a new way or not.

Obama has consistently chosen to protect the status quo....IMO,I think it is not only an opportunity lost, it reveals something about his character( avoidance issues?) and his sense of US History(poor IMHO)


[ Parent ]
There is more than one explanation for these phenomena... (4.00 / 1)
 It's the only interpretation that explains his choice to elevate people like Judd Gregg, Ray LaHood, and John McHugh

It's the "Hugging Republicans until they hurt" philosophy that weakens the opposition by assimilating members of their own.  The Explanation is strategic politics, nothing more..

It's the only interpretation that explains his active support of Republican Arlen Specter against Democrat Joe Sestak.

The explanation is that conventional wisdom believes that uncontested primaries are better for the incumbent party.  There is no evidence that Obama's support for Specter is absolute, and plenty of evidence that it is extremely conditional.  This is again, nothing more than political strategy.

It's the only interpretation that explains his unwillingness to proceed in passing legislation without Republican support

Where do you get that?  The stimulus was passed with the minimum necessary votes, the budget with no votes... While the president would like republicans to vote for his health care plan, the fact he put in reconciliation as an option shows that the preference is not absolute...

or to pressure his party's Majority Leader to eliminate the Senate's pernicious filibuster rule and strip Republicans of their last vestiges of power.

Changing the senate rules requires a 2/3rds vote....

Obama does these things not because Mr. 68% in the polls needs the additional support, but because he truly believes that Republicans within the overlapping consensus are more important than Democrats outside it.  The consensus, for Obama, is more important than the outcome.

No, for years, Democrats have cared more about policy than politics, and it showed by losing elections again and again.... Obama is the first Democrat since FDR to really understand and utilize the art of politics.  There political explanation is usually the best one... as it is here...

As I've said before.. Republicans care too much about politics and democrats not enough... 'cos it's always the latter complaining about "principles" and "purpose" while the right only cares about winning the battle...  Until we start caring a little less about why and a little more about how, we will continue to lose.

REID: Voting against us was never part of our arrangement!
SPECTER: I am altering the deal! Pray I don't alter it any further!
REID: This deal keeps getting worse all the time!


Some responses (4.00 / 3)
Changing the senate rules requires a 2/3rds vote....

Not true, as Bill Frist reminded us repeatedly back when he wanted to use the nuclear option.  There are procedural tricks that can be used to do it with a simple majority.

It's the "Hugging Republicans until they hurt" philosophy that weakens the opposition by assimilating members of their own.

Just try weakening a cancer by assimilating its cells into your body.  Bill Clinton tried that; the result was the Democratic Party circa 2002.  Thank goodness we're free of at least some of that now.

The Crolian Progressive: as great an adventure as ever I heard of...


[ Parent ]
Be careful in mixing your definitions (0.00 / 0)
Most reasonable people (by the Rawlsian definition) agree that the range of possible alternatives ranges from no action (the Bush administration's choice) to the 5-7% carbon emissions reductions proposed by the Kyoto Protocol (at least theoretically Obama's choice).  But the science clearly shows that only a 50% or greater reduction can stave off environmental holocaust.  In the Rawlsian bizarro-world, the science is wrong because it disagrees with the overlapping consensus.  Rawls gives us no way to move beyond the practical in order to achieve the necessary.

Be careful in mixing your definitions.

Unreasonable people are those who refuse by choice to work within the overlapping consensus and are excluded. You have not shown that the science saying 50% reduction is needed is "unreasonable" - that is refusing to work within the overlapping consensus. It is only an argument that then leads people to a consensus.

Remember Rawls didn't label something "right" or "wrong" and that isn't done here about the science either. It is a view point in the policy argument.

Building consensus means maximizing your outcome for the most people - it never means 100% agreement although such agreement can happen on certain issues.

I don't think Rawls ideas are fatally flawed.

What bothers me about liberalism and is probably true about some on the right is when they throw the baby out with the bath water - that is they turn their back on some political person who isn't 100% ideological or who doesn't support their particular pet cause.

When looking for a candidate or elected official to support I look to find them sharing a number of my political ideas. I know I will never find someone who fits my ideals 100% so I am looking for a consensus.


what rawls meant by the overlapping consensus (4.00 / 1)
I was arguing that Obama had Rawlsian motives back during the primary, so I appreciate much of this analysis. But some of the specific conclusions are flawed - specifically, they seem to take Rawls to be locating the overlapping consensus at the level of everyday politics, but the OC is only the basis for different people/groups to adopt a given form of government (i.e., endorse a constitution, basically).

For instance:

Looking at the second case, we can quickly see that populism is not permitted in the Rawlsian world.  "Throw the bums out," as Ross Perot put it, is a distinctly un-Rawlsian sentiment.  You can't throw the bums out, because the bums want to be there and are willing to work with you.  The only way to get rid of political figures you don't like -- not just to remove them from office, but to prevent them from exercising substantive political influence -- is to wait for them to retire.

That's just not true at all. Of course Rawls isn't against electoral politics. Again, the OC applies at the level of accepting a form of government; obviously people will disagree on individual issues, and therefore people might vote in a new representative. Indeed, what the OC really is is a basis for disagreeing - a context within which discourse and disagreement can occur.

As for this:

Most reasonable people (by the Rawlsian definition) agree that the range of possible alternatives ranges from no action (the Bush administration's choice) to the 5-7% carbon emissions reductions proposed by the Kyoto Protocol (at least theoretically Obama's choice).  But the science clearly shows that only a 50% or greater reduction can stave off environmental holocaust.  In the Rawlsian bizarro-world, the science is wrong because it disagrees with the overlapping consensus.  Rawls gives us no way to move beyond the practical in order to achieve the necessary.

Again, reasonableness as far as the overlapping concensus is concerned has to do with accepting a given form of government. So long as there's consensus on that issue, any belief can be based on any facts, and people can have different views on what the facts are, so of course people will disagree and the debate can shift over time.


asdf (4.00 / 2)
That's just not true at all. Of course Rawls isn't against electoral politics.

Where did I say he was?  Rawls fully supported throwing the bums out of office -- but he didn't provide us with any means of keeping them out of unelected positions of influence.  I want an election system something more like the Athenian concept of banishment -- where a defeated candidate is simply prohibited from ever exercising influence again unless s/he can get reelected somehow.  Rawls doesn't allow for that.

The Crolian Progressive: as great an adventure as ever I heard of...


[ Parent ]
ghjk (0.00 / 0)
he didn't provide us with any means of keeping them out of unelected positions of influence.

If he didn't, its because that just wasn't part of his project (which, being political philosophy, didn't have much to do with practical questions of, e.g., how to reduce corruption). But you argue as if Rawls precludes us from throwing the bums out, so long as the bums accept the overlapping concensus. But that's not true. I mean, they're still bums - we don't have to listen to them, and we don't have to vote for the people who listen to them.

As for this:

I want an election system something more like the Athenian concept of banishment -- where a defeated candidate is simply prohibited from ever exercising influence again unless s/he can get reelected somehow.

Really? Have you thought this through? You don't want Al Gore to ever give a speech on global warming? Once Ralph Nader runs and loses, you don't think he should ever be heard from again? That strikes me as not only impractical, but blatantly unconstitutional. At the very least, it's extremely radical.


[ Parent ]
Personally (4.00 / 3)
I find philosophy unfathomable.  I took a college course called "History of Philosophy."  The professor always used three syllable words instead of one syllable words even when the one syllable word was more precise: e.g. "I perceive" rather than "I see".  Every philosopher contradicted and disproved the previous philosopher, inventing words and concepts as he (they were all male) went along (a "monad"?).  In the end nothing was proved and the words got harder and more impossible understand.

When "translations" leave things still in a foreign language requiring the constant use of a dictionary, we really have useless mush.  A Prolegomena to Any Future Metaphysics is still German to me.  When I spent half an hour trying to understand one sentence, it was really better to throw out the book (at least after the course) with total and utter contempt.  Kant sucks.  Big Time.

The whole purpose of this entry is more than condemning some lousily written philosophy.  The purpose is to say that it is arcane, impersonal, and hardly the best place to go.  A simple, more personal reading would say that Obama was totally impressed by at least part of grandma.  Grandma was a bank vice president for decades and the principal bread winner for her extended family.  That was a nearly impossible position for a woman to achieve in the 1950s.  From grandma cometh the big checks and the big goodies.  Entry into the world of privilege (grandma wrote big checks for prep school, it was not just scholarships) was nice.  But the people in the world of privilege ultimately became his reference group.  Obama wants to please and impress the upper crusties of the corporate world and get their good opinion because the upper crusties are the only ones who count.  W wanted to exceed his father.  Obama has already far exceeded grandma.

Of course, it is more than this.  Obama believes totally in at least one thing.  Obama.  He believes that he can charm and convince the coat off a mink while it it is still alive.  He believes that given a shot he can talk Republicans into his stable.  Get a life.  They may even like him but the shivs are out and he gets no support.  They are not made that way.  Charm and convince them?  Where the heck was he in four brutal years in the Senate?  It makes no sense except for the total belief in himself.

Sure, maybe underneath he has liberal ideas but how much do liberal ideas matter if people like me, or you, or even Nobel laureates like Krugman and Stiglitz are off the table but airheads like Coburn get a polite listen.  We don't need Coburn's vote.  In fact, by the time we go far enough to get Coburn's vote on any major policy it is no different than a Bush policy, maybe worse (please note, major policy, not "bright idea").

My private mantra has been, he doesn't like me or my kind.  And yes, I earned a graduate degree from Harvard but I was never part of the prep school or corporate world and was mostly not (alas) welcome in that world.  There is a lot more than Harvard Law operating here.  A lot more.

The two most insightful and valuable pieces I read on Obama came from Paul Rosenberg and David Sirota.

The first piece, from Paul, said that Obama was not a liberal but an early 20th century progressive with top down reform and the elite know best mentality.  And far more like Woodrow Wilson than Teddy Roosevelt.  The difference?  Roosevelt was the first President to recognize and fight for a labor union.  Roosevelt integrated White House functions.  On these two areas, Wilson was a big come down.  The little guy got a hearing from TR.  "Progressive ideas" from reformers got a hearing from Wilson. (That's from me, not Paul).

David Sirota talked about being in a Denver restaurant during the Democratic Convention and stumbling into a meeting between Obama advisers and a group of huge time bankers (Citi was certainly prominent).  The bankers were almost IIRC giving orders.  The light bulb went off and I started making connections that proved (unfortunately) true.  Witness Geithner, Summers, the bailouts and TARP.

So, I think the key is in psychology and personal biography rather than in philosophy.  Read Eric Ericson (spelling?) rather than Rawls.  

We have not had a great President since FDR.  Nixon could have been great.  He had at least some liberal instincts and was the best political strategist (certainly not tactician) of the past 60 years (and maybe more).  But Nixon was mentally ill and conflicted all over the place.  LBJ could have been great but there was Vietnam.  Damn that war (not the warriors, the war).  Maybe JFK could have been great (Thirteen Days gives that impression, book and movie) but the time was too short and too much was left undone.  Greatness needs to do more than follow consensus.  Greatness creates consensus.  Greatness defines consensus.  It is time for greatness rather than  consensus.


FYI (0.00 / 0)
I've actually read a great deal of Erik Erikson, and written an extensive paper on him.  His book on Gandhi is an unfairly overlooked gem.

The Crolian Progressive: as great an adventure as ever I heard of...

[ Parent ]
Yeah (4.00 / 2)
I think Erickson makes a lot of sense.  Something important happened to Obama when he got to Occidental.  The ambition meter took a huge jump.  The serious meter took a huge jump.  It would br fascinating for a biographical/psychological scholar to take a shot at that period.

[ Parent ]
Philosophy is bunkum (0.00 / 0)
You and Henry Ford. Pissing on philosophy may make you a populist -- of a certain kind -- but then so does believing that the Joos run international banking.

A lot of what you think you see when you look around makes sense because a philosopher first called your great-grandfather's attention to it. And cheap shots at Kant? Come on, DK, that's the moral equivalent of pinning a flag pin on your lapel.

Is there no place safe from this kind of posturing? Not even OpenLeft?


[ Parent ]
Not cheap shots (4.00 / 2)
Kant's book failed to convey any meaning whatsoever to me.  It did so in an irritating fashion.  Reading that translation of Kant was worse than reading a foreign language.  At least some of the words in a foreign language are familiar or can be figured out a little by common roots.  I never learned Spanish but some of it makes sense.  Kant's translation was gobbledygook to me.

I am not stupid.  If I read a sentence or a paragraph more than one dozen times and have no idea what it says, the sentence or paragraph is poorly written.  My quarrel there is not based on what somenody else said.  It is based on the man's book. That does not make my Archie Bunker.  It makes Kant a terrible writer.  


[ Parent ]
More (4.00 / 2)
Saying Kant wrote badly is not supposed to be an anti-Semitic comment.  I have no isea what religious background Kant had.  Wikipedia makes it sound like conventional Protestantism.  Ford was a well known anti-Semite.  I don't know that he ever said much about philosophy but Ford was famous for saying history is bunk.  I clearly don't believe that. The comment about "Joos" and "bankers" is off the wall.  It has nothing to do with Rawls, Obama, Kant or anything else in this discusssion.

When comments go so far to the ad hominem level something is really getting hit.  I generally agree with your comments so this is a real surprise.

The fact is that Kant was considered a "hard nut to crack" by German philosophy professors in his own time.  Two hundred plus years later he is still a hard nut to crack given the added burdens of time and language.  Most of the other ologies are a lot, lot easier to grasp.  Economics, history, psychology, sociology, anthropology, cosmology are easier.  There is a reason why people deal with Rawls based on summaries and net articles.  The material is not widely available or widely read.  I don't know about Rawls but ....  Go to Erickson.


[ Parent ]
This deserves an answer (4.00 / 2)
The oblique reference to Ford was not intended to imply anything about anyone's antisemitism except that it's a simple idea, and that it's wrong -- wrong at least as much because of its simplicity as its bigotry.  The same is true of his idea that most intellectuals -- historians, artists, philosophers, etc. were more trouble than they were worth. The point is that Henry Ford liked to make fun of complicated ideas, and to think that a combination of sobriety, cold showers and work on assembly lines, principally his, was all the moral or intellectual tonic anyone needed. He was just as unreflective about his own prejudices.

I see something like that in attacks on Kant, and on metaphysics generally. It doesn't necessarily follow that because Kant is hard to read, A Critique of Pure Reason is meaningless. A common prejudice, this, and if you don't mind my saying so, a very American one. What I was accusing you of, if I was accusing you of anything more serious than a misdemeanor, was your surrender to another aspect of Paul's famous hegemonic limitations on discourse. Maybe doing so was a stretch, given the high regard I have for most of your comments, but you gotta admit, Kant sucks is closer to Spiro Agnew's phrasing than is usual for you.

I don't defend Kant, or any other philosopher because he's obscure, but because his obscurity is a result of some complicated thinking, which had to be done even if many people were unable, or unwilling to do it. Sometimes, given a hundred years or so, someone smarter can make the same points with greater clarity, but that doesn't turn his predecessor into a clown.

Finally, as far as difficult writing goes, have you read many dissertations in sociology, or economics? Not a lot clearer than Kant, some of them, and not always for reasons as selfless as his. I'd add physics and mathematics to the list as well, but because they aren't actually written in a language I can read, I'm not in a position to judge whether on not they make sense. Even so, I would scarcely dismiss them as a lot of garbage, given the indirect evidence of their value all around me.

Enough, already. You took a shot at Kant, and I took one at you. I admit that my crime was greater, in that it was directed at the living. For that, I apologize.


[ Parent ]
Thanks (4.00 / 2)
In my case, Kant actiually is a sore point.I put considerable effort into him once and it left stronger feelings than it should have.  

The course was the worst single one I had at any level, grade school, junior high, high school, college or grad school.  Kant was the worst part.  My response is unfortunate and over blown.

I can't say that I have read many dissertations.  I am certainly a lay person when it comes to the sciences. The strange thing about physics, which may confirm your comment, is that Einstein or Hawking come across to me as more readable than many standard physics texts.  That says a mouthful.  My trick for high school physics was to skip the mathematical formulas and go straight to the final line and the following text.  Alas, there is no similar trick for philosophy.

Thanks again.


[ Parent ]
I Never Cared For Kant Either (0.00 / 0)
For the same reasons you pointed out. Same goes for Hegel (whose writing was more muddled than Kant's). I guess that's why I preferred someone like Schopenhauer because he strove for clarity in his writing while still having a lot of important things to say.  

[ Parent ]
Great thoughts (4.00 / 3)
This all seems reasonable to me.

When you listen to Obama complain about Republicans, you'll notice it is always from this perspective.  The good news is Obama really does seem to get upset with Republicans act "unreasonably".  I agree with Paul that Obama seems to take this on as one of his big challenges, however.  Will the frustration ever change Obama?


Obama the Centrist (4.00 / 2)
Now we know what Obama the Centrist means, and what he meant by change - a return to governance by reasonable consensus (sometimes bipartisan, always involving the powerful and the entrenched).

Not fully knowing why, I did tell everyone pre-election that he was a centrist who would want to involve all stakeholders to order to have them feel they own any reforms he put forth. And that consensus building would mean that health care reform would be formulated primarily to appease the insurance companies. He would also agree to work with the military on their priorities.

Excluding "objective truth" as formulated largely through religion and abstract philosophical reasoning was a good idea. Excluding objective truth from empirical science is a bad idea, once a scientific consensus is widespread. Yet it was once "scientific" to endorse some sort of racism, and "empirical" data were sought to fit the racist theory. Wariness in endowing science with a voice of truth is understandable.

I would favor creating two Senate seats for scientists to elect their own. I would also favor a single Senate seat for non-profit humanitarian organizations, the arts, and key industries.

Thank you for so briefly  but validly outlining incredibly important ideas, and provoking such thoughtful comments.


I don't know if you... (4.00 / 3)
understand Rawls or not, but I think you have described at least a major aspect of the Community Organizer In Chief. This should come as no surprise to anyone. If the consensus is assumed to be just, simply because it's the current prevailing consensus (doesn't that define Centrism rather than Liberalism?), then count me unreasonable too.  

Obama's "America does not torture" (4.00 / 4)
is an instructive example of what can go wrong with this approach. He tried to create the appearance of a consensus that reconciles a bunch of irreconcilable positions regarding the controversy over torture and accountability for it, including:
1. America clearly has tortured and has broken our laws and treaties in doing so (aside from whether this is still on-going).
2. We traditionally see ourselves as humanitarians, superior to nations that would torture.
3. We don't want to know the truth about our use of torture.
4. We want to focus on other issues for practical reasons.
5. Torture doesn't work generally, but it might work in certain situations.
6. It isn't torture when we do it.
7. We are a nation of laws and no one is above the law.
8. We promise to not do it anymore.

The consensus that "reconciles" these positions then becomes the absurdity that "America does not torture", which can only make sense if we become brain-washed zombies.  I do trust Obama more than the Bushies in this area, but this kind of centrist mental acrobatics with values and logic can amount to acceptance of kinda sorta torture with kinda sorta due process and little accountability for the decision-makers, a certain  willingness to compromise human rights, due process,  and civil liberties. Obama is an effective politician, which we do need, but I'm afraid he may have lost part of his soul and some of his intellectual integrity when he threw Rev. Wright under the bus for criticizing America's record of human rights violations. He did so in order to win an election. Whether that is morally justified in the long run, I'm not wise enough to know, but I think  sometimes we need to tolerate some cognitive dissonance and work with it, have some "partisan bickering", and reject some inhumane or fact-free viewpoints and their proponents because our values say they are wrong.    


Shorter One Size Fits All: (4.00 / 1)
We didn't do it and we promise not to do it again.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
That's what I thought, too -- (4.00 / 2)
when Obama shitcanned Jeremiah Wright, and hooked up with Rick Warren instead, it was only a matter of time before he would end up justifying torture. And now here we are.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
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