Scattered Thoughts About Iran's Stolen Election

by: Paul Rosenberg

Sat Jun 13, 2009 at 15:20


Amidst the chaos of various reports from Iran, one thing seems clear: the election was stolen, and rather ham-fistedly at that.  

I should hasten to say, it's possible that they stole an election they would have won anyway.  I don't pretend to be an expert in Iranian politics, and with such a volatile situation--plus a class dimension pointed to by VLaszlo in quick hits that's never seriously discussed here--I doubt that many others outside Iran know much better either.

But I do know the tell-tale signs--at least some of them--when an election is being stolen.  Manipulating and cutting off communications are right there at the top of the list.

Given that nothing could possibly de-legitimate the unelected government more than this, one has to wonder why they did it.  Perhaps they didn't realize this. Perhaps they didn't care.  Perhaps they even wanted it, to show how little they cared if they were seen as illegitimate.  As I freely admit, I don't know enough about Iranian politics to even begin to say which is more likely.  But given what little I do know, this moment seems clearly parallel to a number of other crucial moments in world history--none of them too happy in the short run.  

Tianenman Square is an obvious parallel--a moment of potential transformation dashed, one that came at the end of a string of such moments that had swept through Eastern Europe.  The CIA's coup in Iran in 1953 is another such moment, as is the multi-nation European uprising of 1848.  These are all moments when it seemed that bonds of history might burst... but then they did not.

But what are those bonds of history?  They are primarily the bonds of the masters, but they are also the bonds of necessity as well, which often means they are the bonds of what the poor need to survive.  Those on the edge of starvation may eat like kings for a day if that's what it costs to rally enough of them to keep the Ancien Regime in place.

Paul Rosenberg :: Scattered Thoughts About Iran's Stolen Election
That's the bottom line of what I see happening in Iran just now.  I'm not claiming it's the dominant framework we all should adopt in understanding events there--I don't claim there's any dominant framework at all.  

I only claim that it's a valid one, that it gets at some significant piece of the truth--and that that piece is one that's widely shared around the world, not just now, but across a broad period of time, reaching back at least to the 19th Century, but forward we know not how long.  For if we do not find a way past this point of impasse before too long, then global warming and other forms of environmental catastrophe will close off the possibility of further progress for at least a period of centuries.

We need to find a way forward that empowers individual autonomy while at the same time ensuring the essential dignity and security of the least among us--the basics of both political and civil rights on the one hand and cultural/socio-economic rights on the other.

This is not conceptually an impossible dream.  It is entirely doable in terms of social dynamics.  But there are tremendously powerful special interests opposed to it, and their are powerful myths we have come to believe that tell us it is not possible.

This is one reason why it matters a great deal what is happening in Iran today, where it's been reported that many supporters of Mousavi have gone out to protest without any hope of success, merely because they feel they must do it--one might say, out of a sense of "duty now for the future."  And this sense of duty is not just important for them, but equally much for the poor masses who may have quite sincerely voted for Ahmadinejad as well.

Now, that's the kind of bi-partisan change I can believe in.  


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the Ayatollah wins, no matter what -- and 30% of the pop doesn't beat 70% -- (0.00 / 0)
it's not stolen because the upper classes there and our media here say it is.

and it's not either of the 2 running who run the country anyway.

this was an election for a new frontman, like we just had -- the appearance of change and reform without the reality.


Not Really The Point (4.00 / 6)
(1) The point is that when you try to steal a show election, that's when you can get people riled to the point where they start demanding a real democracy.

(2) I don't believe either of us is in a position to verify the 30/70 claim.  And if it were so, then there'd be no need to shut down all communications.

Like I said, you can even steal an election you win, just like cops & prosecutors can frame a guilty man.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
but Ahmadinejad himself was the challenger/reform candidate in the last election -- (0.00 / 0)
and from all accounts he's provided for the majority of the population -- esp those not in the urban upper classes, who don't need govt social services and programs anyway (just like here).

The Ayatollah and religious leaders run the country -- they shut or block communications and censor many things all the time -- not just at elections. They police the streets ensuring compliance with female headcovering, etc too -- all the time.

BBC has always been blocked in Iran, for instance -- it's not just now.

If we all know it was a show election anyway, how can it be stolen? seriously.

And the college kids and wealthy who are protesting this election are not representative of Iran's population -- they never ever ever were. And all accounts indicate that these groups are not hurting or becoming the poor, even tho Iran's economy is bad like everywhere else on Earth.

If the current leaders provide for the masses, and there's massive turnout, you can't call it stolen.  


[ Parent ]
ok... (0.00 / 0)
how would you respond to juan cole's take?

http://www.juancole.com/2009/0...


[ Parent ]
the real leader of the country fixed it so his chosen frontman won -- like in many countries -- (0.00 / 0)
I'm sure Cole is right about all of it.

I don't believe you can steal an election that couldn't possibly have ever produced a result the Ayatollah didn't want -- no matter what.

participating in this election, voting for the "reformer", and protesting the results, are not about overthrowing the leaders of Iran -- it's not possible.

They took power in a revolution, and any and all elections there have never been about changing the real leadership -- ever.

There never could have been an election result the Ayatollah didn't approve of. Call it "pre-stolen" or sham if you like, but you can't steal it.


[ Parent ]
i'm having trouble following. (0.00 / 0)
just because the candidates are pre-approved, doesn't mean the election could not have the effect of threatening the aims and ultimately power of the ayatollah.  he is not a god, and thus can't predict the future when he pre-approves the candidates.  mousavi's campaign exploded in a very unexpected way.  he was taking pretty bold stands, and (more importantly) many of his supporters were starting to question the power of the ayatollah.  i can see why the ayatollah felt threatened by his movement, and why he wouldn't have predicted that threat when he pre-approved mousavi.

also, there is a difference between a fair election between pre-approved candidates, and an 'election' whose results are falsified in order to maintain in power the incumbent (who is the preferred candidate of the ayatollah).  this should go without saying, but apparently it doesn't.


[ Parent ]
but the preferred candidate of those with real power can also be popular and get many votes -- see Russia and Putin's puppet, for instance -- (0.00 / 0)
just bec we only hear bad of the Iranian incumbent doesn't mean he didn't get many many millions of votes. It doesn't mean that those voting against him were for rights and democracy either.

those bold stands? -- they were not for freedom, but against helping the poor -- see my post at the bottom.


[ Parent ]
basically, i'm done with this debate -- i need to get some work done. (0.00 / 0)
but i'm still confused: do you think that ahmadinejad won the majority of votes or not.  you seem to be going back and forth on this, and it isn't a minor point.  

based on all the reports i have seen, i think you are fundamentally wrong about mousavi's supporters.  see robert dreyfuss at the nation, for example.  

on the economic issue, paul's response below is pretty much what i would say.  


[ Parent ]
. (0.00 / 0)
A) if ahmadienijad had lost it would be the first time since the 79 revolution that iranian voters have voted out an incumbent president.

B) obviously the ayatollah felt very threatened by the potential election results that they were pulling out all the stops to legitimize Ahmadinijad.

So in light of that it's a bit strange to try to sweep this under the rug. I mean, pointing out that poor people are perfectly happy with giving up their rights as long as they get their welfare checks has no bearing on the legitimacy of the government. It just means people will give up freedom for security, whether it's economic security or otherwise. That's the way most oil rich dictatorships work.

The problem though is that you have a recession which raises the anxiety of the middle class and an effort to subvert those people's desire for change. And if you lose the middle class, you lose the fuckin game.


[ Parent ]
I heard, I believe on Friday, the BBC's Lyse Doucet discussing the class (4.00 / 1)
issue as well. She mentioned, however, and this is in accordance with Juan Cole ( http://www.juancole.com/2009/0... ,) that the urban poor seem to support Mousavi over Ahmadinejad. So there appears to be at least some complexity to the class divide.

 


Agreed (4.00 / 1)
And this is a common phenomena, where cultural factors (regional, ethnic, urban/rural) divide the lower classes more than they do the middle--or, of course, the upper.

This was particularly notable in the US with the Populists joining the Democrats in 1896, just to take an example that's close to home.  The East Coast urban poor weren't even contested by the Dems.  They saw the Midwest as the swing region, and focused intensely on campaigning there.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Urban poor/rural poor (4.00 / 2)
It is somewhat of a historical fantasy that the interests of peasants and those of poorer townspeople have ever been in alignment. For example during the French Revolution the peasants ultimately launched a counter-revolution against the city based revolutionaries and their violently anti-clerical agenda and their demands that peasants join into their revolutionary army.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R...

Not only are rural poor and urban poor often divided on ethnic, religious and cultural lines, they also are pretty much always divided on economic lines. The controlling classes of the countryside, which include the higher range of the peasantry, thrive when urban food prices are high, which in pre-modern times mostly those times when food is scarce in the towns. Now at the extremes everyone  suffers, a few years of disasterous crop failures and everyone starves. But in the normal course of events there is a see-saw effect.

This only gets worse when world trade enters into the picture. My own state of Washington is a huge exporter of wheat  to Asia, which is probably a pretty good deal if you are a poor shop-keeper in Karachi who can thus afford to feed his family. But maybe not so good for his distant cousin who is now priced out of the urban market.

Given Iran's vast ethnic, religious, cultural differences and the vastly different economic interests of country vs city we shouldn't be surprised that things don't neatly fall into rich/poor categories when it comes to such things as elections.
___________________________

That being said Paul's comment about the Dems not contesting the East Coast urban poor kind of confuses me. Weren't the typical urban political machine predominately based on control of lower income largely ethnic populations and firmly Democratic? Did I miss something fundamental about Tammany Hall while I wasn't looking?

I don't know of any time after the Civil War that Democrats were not contesting control of large cities with all their might, and in most cases that meant corralling the urban poor against the Goo-Goos who represented the upper middle class. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G...


[ Parent ]
Two Points (4.00 / 1)
(1) One reason for the success of the Nordic social democratic welfare states is that urban workers were able to create alliances with farm workers and small farmers.  They were in the unusual position of being able to craft policy, rather than simply react, and they took advantage of it.

(2) Tammany Hall and other similar machines were white nativist, going a long way back.  It wasn't really until the Great Depression that this changed substantially.  It was the immigrant workers--primarily Catholic and Jewish--who were on the bottom rungs, who Bryant didn't even try to reach out to.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Good enough (0.00 / 0)
But the claim. that Bryant did not reach out to Catholics which at that point meant urban Irish, Bavarian German, Poles, 'Bohunks' (Bohemians), 'Hunkies' (Hungarians) does not mean that the Democratic Party of the time was not eagerly signing these manufacturing workers up.

The Democratic Party of the industrial mid-west was built on the backs of white urban 'ethnics'.


[ Parent ]
Right (0.00 / 0)
We were talking presidential politics in Iran here, so when I switched to talking about US 1896, I was carrying that context over implicitly, when I should have made it explicit.

Bryant's populism did not always merge so seamlessly with the rest of what the party was doing, and I was speaking specifically about how his campaign was conceived, where it saw it's strengths, and the fact that urban immigrant workers--particularly on the seaboard, where they were most densely settled--were culturally quite far removed from the prairie populist base.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Another historical parallel might be (0.00 / 0)
the failed attempted last-ditch Communist coup in Russia circa 1991, in which they were routed and Yeltsin became president. Of course, we all know how well that turned out for Russian democracy in the end. Perhaps countries can only be as democratic as they're ready and willing to be at any given time, and political situations kind of find their own level, like water. Of course, anti-democratic despots in power invariably seek to prevent the democratic spirit and will and democratic institutions and activities from achieving critical mass. Sometimes they succeed, and sometimes they don't. We'll see which is the case in Iran. I'm guessing that long-term, the clerics are doomed, but that it might not yet be their time to go.

Imagine, though, how much more powerful they'd be had we or Israel attacked Iran.

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton


I'm More Inclined To See That Election (0.00 / 0)
as a battle between stasis and regression.  Regression won.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
except that there's been real help and progress for the majority of Iranians -- (0.00 / 0)
it's only regression (and only selectively) on rights and freedoms -- which they didn't have under our puppet Shah either, by the way. And they're not at all as harsh as they were all thru the 80s by any measure.

Many of the women we see today on tv would have been fined or worse for showing that much hair and wearing makeup in public back in the 80s.


[ Parent ]
ok. this is basically becoming a brief for (4.00 / 1)
ahmadinejad.  it is hard for me to understand how members of the left could take this position...  

[ Parent ]
no -- it's not -- at all. it's about how govts provide for its people or don't -- (0.00 / 0)
and about how sham elections for leaders without real power anyway aren't always stolen.

[ Parent ]
i'm having trouble parsing this: (0.00 / 0)
how sham elections for leaders without real power anyway aren't always stolen

if it weren't stolen (i.e. if ahmadinejad had won a majority), it wouldn't be a sham election.  and if there were no power vested in the presidency, why would anyone have wanted to steal it in the first place?

and the idea that ahmadinejad has 'provided for the people' is borderline state propaganda.  the government distributes limited subsidies, but doesn't invest in ways that will create sustainable jobs, which has had the effect of multiplying inflation (which negatively effects standard of living).  this is apparent to the urban working classes, many of whom apparently (as pointed out upthread) were highly critical of ahmadinejad.    

and about rights? do you want to keep arguing that the state police forces aren't so bad, and that anyway they were bad under the shah, in the wake of what has happened today?    


[ Parent ]
it's not propaganda at all -- "growth rates for the lower deciles was twice that of the highest deciles" (0.00 / 0)
http://djavad.wordpress.com/20... --
...  The change during 2006-07 (the last year for which we have data is 2007)  is in the opposite direction and exactly as Mr. Ahmadinejad had promised!  The figure below shows average decile growth rates for the three-year period as well as for individual years.  Whereas Mr. Ahmadinejad's first year saw inequality rise (the expenditures of the top decile grew by 1.5%, compared to minus 1.8% for the lowest decile), the following year the situation reversed and the growth rates for the lower deciles was twice that of the highest deciles.   ...

The upper classes in Iran have not done as well under this guy as they'd like to do --- and they're not out protesting for any overthrow of the Ayatollah or system.

Things are not as bad as they were, and younger Iranians have far more freedom than those 20 and 30 years older did. None of that means they're free.

The Shah was not about bestowing rights on the people either -- in any way, shape, or form.


[ Parent ]
but the blogger you cite says that (0.00 / 0)
inequality has risen under ahmadinejad, an observation that you conveniently cut out from the beginning of your quote.  

but the issue of inequality doesn't address at all the question of inflation, which damages quality of life across the board.  but it seems to me that more narrowly 'political' questions came to the fore in the runup to this election.    

"none of that means they're free."  so, in other words, you are saying that the mass protests might actually have some basis other than upper class privilege.  whether or not the rights situation has improved (my sense is that it oscillates in various ways), this situation is still a cause for great frustration for (potentially) all iranians, women in particular.  this is what was animating the protests, which (if cole is right, which you concede), had mass support, well beyond the "upper classes."    


[ Parent ]
This REALLY Gets To The Heart Of It (4.00 / 1)
and the idea that ahmadinejad has 'provided for the people' is borderline state propaganda.  the government distributes limited subsidies, but doesn't invest in ways that will create sustainable jobs,

I've written about this before--the distinction between spending that is simple maintenance of a minimal standard of living vs. spending that is wealth-building, covering everything from education and job creation on up.  A half-decent conservative welfare state will take care of the poor, simply to keep them (a) loyal and (b) in their place.  It's damn sure better than starving to death, but it's not a pathway to autonomy available to all, which is what we ought to be fighting for.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Oh, cute. Then wearing makeup and showing hair are practically the same (4.00 / 2)
as, "'Thirty-four million women demand to have female Cabinet ministers; 34 million women demand to be eligible to run for president,' Zahra Rahnavard, wife of reformist candidate Mir Hossein Moussavi, told CNN's Christiane Amanpour.

'Thirty-four million women want the civil law to be revised; 34 million women want the family law revised.'"


[ Parent ]
thank you for that dose of sanity. nt. (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
and isn't the whole election just an outlet/distraction for whoever is discontented anyway? like many countries use the Palestinians for ? (0.00 / 0)
doesn't all this actually keep the Ayatollah and his councils in power, untouchable, and not targets?

Doesn't it actually prevent real systemic change?


no, as we saw yesterday, the election actually started to (4.00 / 1)
frighten the ayatollah.  just because something sometimes serves as a safety valve doesn't mean it can't be transformed, relatively quickly, into the site of authentic struggle.  

[ Parent ]
really? frighten him? (0.00 / 0)
or is he just being responsive (or appearing to be so) like he was when the current president won in the last election?

[ Parent ]
you are right, none of us knows for certain what is motivating the ayatollah. (4.00 / 1)
but it is hard to question the fact that his legitimacy has been tarnished by this episode, and that had he worked to ensure a fair election, he would have been confronted with the popular election of someone whose supporters were beginning to question the ayatollah's authority, at least around the edges.  

he seems to have chosen to throw his weight behind ahmadinejad rather than risk a mousavi win.  it seems to me that a reasonable explanation for this action is that he feared a mousavi win more than the uprisings we are seeing now.  

this claim can be supported insofar as he clearly favored ahmadinejad's reelection, as he presented an image of his 'ideal president' in the days leading up to the election that closely resembled ahmadinejad.

but if you want to maintain that his motives are simply to be responsive to the will of the people, go ahead.    


[ Parent ]
but a Mousavi win would not have threatened his power -- it's not possible for it to do so -- (0.00 / 0)
all real power is overtly vested in him and his people -- not in the presidency.

it's not believable that he was frightened -- if he was frightened he would have prevented Mousavi from being a candidate in the first place -- they do that, you know.

Real threats to their power are not allowed to run.


[ Parent ]
WTF??? (4.00 / 1)
According to you, nothing can be done because the real powers are omniscient and omnipotent, not allowing anything to happen that could threaten them.

So why the fuck spend your time commenting on a political blog?  Why not just go to the beach?


"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
not at all -- those voting for the challenger in Iran were not doing what you think they were -- (0.00 / 0)
they're not like those who made revolution in the former USSR -- at all.

nor was the election about overturning the Ayatollah, or changing their basic system.

you yourself admitted it was sham -- don't attack me for questioning the Ayatollah's supposed "fright".

this is not about everywhere -- this is about Iran's election.


[ Parent ]
You're Simply Ignoring The Evidence You Don't Like (4.00 / 2)
Both seabrook and I are arguing that it's a complicated situation, with cross-cutting motivations, and an underlying fluidity in which the power at stake in the election could and did rapidly increase as a result of unforeseen circumstances.

You are arguing with a straw man, assuming that we blindly accept a M$M classless "analysis" of what is going on there.

We'd just like you to stop arguing with someone who isn't here, and respond to the arguments that have been made.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
the opposite -- entirely class-based, and non-revolutionary entirely -- (0.00 / 0)
i'm not the one romanticizing and painting the opposition voters as thwarted revolutionaries.

i'm not the one painting the opposition as good or better than the incumbent.

the upper and middle class opposition voters are actually far more like anti-Chavez and anti-Morales voters -- not that the incumbent was Chavez or Morales. And they are just as selfish and materialistic as we are here.

the candidate himself was not advocating for freedom in any way shape or form, but for no more charity for the poor and for job creation and no more sanctions. (see below)


[ Parent ]
Precisely! (4.00 / 1)
Your interpretation is rigid, one-dimensional and doctrinaire.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Are human rights being violated? (0.00 / 0)
Then away with the government.

It's that simple.

Some would have you think that a handout from the government buys your rights and dignity.

Fuck that.


[ Parent ]
Reminds me a bit of some (0.00 / 0)
of the PRI's "greatest hits" in Mexico. Google the 1988 Mexican election, for example.

Then again, I'd rather - much rather be governed by the PRI. In theory, the PRI's political identity and policies weren't and aren't that bad. Can't exactly say that for A and his gang.

The good news is that it looks like some real splits are starting to emerge inside the regime itself about what is going on - that is the key.  Its up to us to keep up the spotlight. The MSM is frankly asleep at the switch with a few notable exceptions.


"criticism of the "charity economy" that opposition candidates accuse Mr. Ahmadinejad of having created." (0.00 / 0)
from an overview at Brookings -- http://www.brookings.edu/opini... -- Iran's Presidential Elections: A Surge of Reformists in Politics

... Second, Iran's middle class,[1] twice as large in number as they were in 1997 and now accounting for about half of all voters, are asserting themselves for the first time. Their challenge is reflected most visibly in their criticism of the "charity economy" that opposition candidates accuse Mr. Ahmadinejad of having created. ...

there's a really interesting piece i have to dig up -- about how the newer middle classes in 2nd/3rd world countries are often very un-Democratic, supporting dictators, etc....


here it is -- FP: The Bourgeois Revolution - How the global middle class declared war on democracy (0.00 / 0)
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/s... --

... one of the most confusing evolutions in developing countries over the last decade: the rise of the democracy-hating middle class. ...


[ Parent ]
more- Mousavi "derides Ahmadinejad's "charity economy" policies, while urging a return to the "fundamental values" of the Islamic Republic" (0.00 / 0)
Reuters -- Iran's Mousavi seen as main threat to Ahmadinejad -- http://uk.news.yahoo.com/22/20...

... Hoping to win votes from reformers and conservatives, the former prime minister derides Ahmadinejad's "charity economy" policies, while urging a return to the "fundamental values" of the Islamic Republic's founder, Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini.

The bespectacled, bearded 67-year-old enjoys the support of reformist former President Mohammad Khatami and apparent backing from Khatami's pragmatic predecessor, Ali Akbar Rafsanjani.

But Mousavi's bid to unseat Ahmadinejad could be undermined by another contender, Mehdi Karoubi, whose liberal outlook could split the vote among those avid for political and social change.

After two decades out of the political limelight, Mousavi may also struggle for recognition -- many voters are too young to recall his stint as prime minister when he kept Iranians supplied with rationed goods in the 1980-88 war with Iraq.

Mousavi, running partly on that economic record, says he would seek detente with the West, curb inflation and create jobs if elected president of the world's fifth-largest oil producer.

He has promised to change the "extremist" image that Iran earned abroad under Ahmadinejad and has hit out at his profligate spending of petrodollars and cash handouts to the poor, which he says have stoked rising consumer prices. ...



[ Parent ]
Democracy (0.00 / 0)
As a side note, a few years ago I looked into what Iran's system of government was, mostly just from various wiki pages, and found it very interesting.  In particular, I found myself comparing it to England's.

England, remember, still has an unelected House of Lords and the Queen still has some legal power.  But England is a true democracy because it is run that way.

In Iran, the Supreme Leader is elected from a body that is actually elected by popular vote.  However the Supreme Leader can determine who is allowed to run in those elections and is also allowed to determine who can run for President.  Up until now, though, the elections themselves have been generally fair.

So there is a dictatorship element and a democratic element that play off each other.  One could easily imagine the same constitution providing a real democracy, much like England has one, if the democratic portion ever takes control.


Right (4.00 / 1)
What this points to is how utterly crucial social norms are.

Taking an example from close to home, it was unthinkable 40 years ago for CEOs to make 100s of times more than their entry-level workers, and to make even more if they cut more jobs.  We could pass laws to make the business environment much more like it was 40 years ago, but without a change in social norms, it would only have a limited impact on how things work in terms of power relations.  Of course, we could almost certainly only pass such changes if the norms began changing as well.  But you get the point.


"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
That crazy mother fucker was never going to abide by the law (0.00 / 0)
You cannot negotiate with people like that. You can't talk to them. They are crazy fascists.

Does anyone think you could have negotiated with Hitler to your benefit? Look what he did to Chamberlain and the French.

The only thing to do is to strengthen the middle class in Iran. All this while he is providing bread and circuses to the poor.


I have a very focused thought for the self-proclaimed leftist apologists (4.00 / 2)
The American equivalent of what is happening now in Iran is if the christo-fascists were stealing elections in an essentially unfree electoral system. (we aren't so far from that now)

Where would you stand?

With the "majority" of village idiots?

Fuck democracy then.

There is right and wrong, and a majority cannot make wrong into right.

Freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of religion, freedom of assembly: worth fighting for, worth dying for.

If elections safeguard these freedoms, hallelujah!

If elections jeopardize these freedoms, aux armes!

Let this stolen election be a touchstone for who you are as a citizen.


"The mullahs have stolen everything" (0.00 / 0)
That is what an Iranian guy I worked with told me a few years ago. He was referring to property, not elections, but it's not a stretch (for this non-Iranian) to say that if the mullahcracy will steal property, then they would also steal an election.

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