Everybody Stand Back

by: Natasha Chart

Mon Jun 15, 2009 at 21:27


There is an old saying in Arabic:

"Better a hundred years of tyranny than one day of fitna (civil chaos)."

But most Iranians aren't Arabs, as you may know, and as they would certainly tell you if you were to demonstrate confusion on that point. More than being of a different ethnicity, their entire cultural outlook is different.

As Stephen Kinzer wrote in All The Shah's Men, of the dominant, Persian-influenced perspective of Iran's people:

Natasha Chart :: Everybody Stand Back
Sunnis do not attribute great importance to the violent deaths of Ali and Hussein, but for Shiites, whose name comes from the phrase Shi'at-Ali, or "followers of Ali," they were cataclysmic events. To them, Ali and Hussein represent both the mystic spirituality of pure Islam and the self-sacrificing life that true Muslims must live. In this view, shaped by Zoroastrian tradition, the two heroes rebelled against an establishment that had become corrupt and thereby lost its farr. They are believed to have sacrificed themselves, as th etruly pious must, on the altar of evil. By doing[ so,] they bequeathed to Shiites a legacy of religious zeal and a willingness, even an eagerness, to embrace martyrdom at the hands of God's enemies.

Ali remains the most perfect soul and the most enlightened leader who ever lived, excepting only the Prophet himself; Shiites still pore over his speeches and memorize his thousands of proverbs and aphorisms. Hussein epitomizes the self-sacrifice that is the inevitable fate of all who truly love Islam and humanity. His martyrdom is considered even more universally significant than that of Ali because it was inflicted by government soldiers rather than by a lone fanatic. Grasping the depth of this passion is essential to any understanding of modern Iran.

Kinzer explains that the commemoration of Imam Hussein's death, with its rites of public mourning, is such an emotionally involved and cathartic event, that to witness it is to almost believe that the people in the streets are weeping for someone they knew who had only just died.

Iran's leaders will always have the pressure, though it may be slow to build, of a long cultural tradition holding that rulers must maintain some moral authority in order to rightly maintain temporal authority.

With such transparently fraudulent election results, Khamenei's government seems to have lost its farr in the eyes of Iranians.

What can we do to help?

I propose this: extremely little.

It may be goofy, but I'm wearing a touch of green today. I will say that I support the right of Iranians to have their votes counted and their choices respected. I will say that whatever government they end up with in the aftermath of this election, it should be recognized and negotiated with in good faith.

Because ... it's really none of my business. It's really not the US' business, and it isn't the business of any European nation.

So I will do one more thing on behalf of Iran's struggle for democracy: categorically condemn any calls for cessation of relations, additional sanctions or any sort of military or covert action designed to destabilize their government. If anyone suggests putting the Shah's son back in power in my hearing, that person will get a strenuous mocking.

Once upon a time, the Anglo-Iranian oil company operated a concession negotiated with the corrupt Qajar dynasty. As Kinzer describes, Iranians weren't allowed even to look at the company's books and received a pittance for the exploitation of their national resources.

When a new 50-50 profit sharing deal was announced between the US and Saudi Arabia, something the American ambassadors had been warning Britain was in the works, public pressure for greater transparency in Iran became louder. When the British refused to negotiate terms, full-throated calls for complete nationalization and expulsion of the British that no public official could speak against.

Against this backdrop, Prime Minister Mohammad Mossadeq came to power and nationalized Iran's oil industry.

When the British were expelled, when they made clear through military blockades and diplomatic pressure that Iran wasn't going to be able to sell its oil anywhere in the world, deepening its poverty, Mossadeq's popular government began to run into trouble.

Yet while there were legitimate detractors, he was not removed from power in an election. Iranians were not allowed to develop an alternative to his government. Instead, in 1953, a US-backed coup was planned out of the American embassy in Tehran at the behest of the Eisenhower administration and the Shah was returned to power.

Had Mossadeq made mistakes? Well, of course. But it wasn't really the point. As the Shah meted out bloody reprisals and set up a system of political repression that would last his entire reign, he and his American backers deprived Iran of the process of democracy itself. The process of setting up channels for non-violent dialogue between different sectors of society, and building public and private institutions for determining and expressing the terms of civilized debate.

It's a terrible crime to take democracy away from a country.

When the Shah fell, deposed by a broad coalition of groups, many who were secular, the only contingent focused and organized enough to seize power were the hardline ayatollahs.

Imagine, if you will, that following the stolen election of 2000, that Canada had invaded, set up a monarchy in Washington, DC, and dismantled all political parties, political action committees, independent political news sources and tortured or killed anyone who expressed interest in setting up new ones. Then imagine that, about 20 years later, the fed up populace rebelled and took back the government, only to have it taken over by a well-organized bloc of Catholic bishops - because they were the only organized group still standing.

Would that represent the will of the American people? Even the people who'd opposed Bush? No. Emphatically no.

Iranians used to worry about the predations of Britain and Russia. Now they worry about the United States. The US is seen as having, almost seamlessly, picked up the baton of imperial rule from right where the British dropped it.

The US embassy was seized in 1979 because Iranians fully expected that another coup would be arranged against them to destroy their autonomy and bring back the Shah.

Iran's clerical government has used that wholly reasonable concern, as well as the US' publicly known, permanent covert operations campaign against them, as a club against any opposition. It's all too easy in Iran to brand someone as 'soft on the United States,' as it were, if not as an outright tool of our government.

It's fear of foreign meddling as much as anything that has kept the extremely unpopular clerical government in power. Do you start a family argument when someone is trying to break down the front door? You do not.

Nonetheless, the Iranian people have diligently continued trying to build democratic institutions. They've achieved as much under the circumstances as probably anyone could. In spite of being terrorized by the regime, in spite of a horrible war with Iraq, they never gave up.

The Obama administration has, so far and very sensibly in my opinion, stayed out of this. Obama had not expressed an interest in one outcome or another of the election, he hasn't threatened to come in guns blazing to rescue people who don't want that kind of rescuing. The neocon response is merely stupid, as usual, as it always was under Bush.

There's no reason to listen now to the people who were wrong about everything Middle Eastern in the past.

Ther's some chaos right now, but for love of Graud, the best gift we could give to the people of Iran would be to let them know that they don't have to worry about external threats right now. That we'll be patient and let them figure it out.

If it should happen that the stolen election holds? Well, I'm still glad no one invaded the US in order to interfere in the 2000 results. Look what's happened since: at the incredible progressive movement we've built, at the president we elected.

Let them be, let them sort it out, let them own their country. It's the right thing to do.


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hmph (4.00 / 1)
I thought it was okay to support counterproductively interfering in democratic processes as long as it was in the name of being progressive. :P

In sincerity, thanks for this post.  I think it is hard from within the United States to appreciate how many people outside the United States - including people in the U.S.'s closest allies - resent what I can only call imperialism, though others may have other descriptions of it like 'soft power' or some of the aspects of 'globalization' or simply 'cultural exchange.'

Your post raises an important question, though, that has been troubling me since I did 'anti-sweatshop activism' and quit for some of these reasons.  What exactly does international solidarity look like if it is really international and really in solidarity?  This is a problem we confront in almost every scenario, not just this one.


You are correct that that is the conventional wisdom (0.00 / 0)
But that conventional wisdom is being challenged by a new dynamic.

[ Parent ]
i was joking :) (0.00 / 0)
the conventional wisdom is conventional...i'll give it that ;)

[ Parent ]
Imperialism is one thing (0.00 / 0)
But supporting my fellow human beings in their struggle to throw off a repressive regime is quite another. I don't give a damn which artificial national borders those human beings happen to live within.

There's a very large gap between "doing very little" and supporting a full-scale Imperialist take-over lead by the US military.  

"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
So, what do you suppose? (0.00 / 0)
You're for activism. OK. What actions exactly?
It's easy to criticise without putting up alternatives for review...

Let it be said by our children's children that when we were tested, we refused to let this journey end, that we did not turn back, nor did we falter

[ Parent ]
If you wanna do something, why not set up a proxy for the Iranians? (0.00 / 0)
I mean, a proxy server, as described by Austin Heap here:
http://blog.austinheap.com/200...
(hat tip to NeonBlack, who linked this in a QuickHit)

This would help the folks in Iran to stay connected to the rest of the world, in spite of the filtering by their government. Certainly a help for them.

Of course, this comes with the risk that the proxy may be exploited for other, perhaps criminal, purposes (even though blocking non-Iranian IPs would lower that risk). And it would slow your internet connection down. But at least it's a serious proposal, going beyond merely protesting at US blogs, something you can really do. If you're serious, give it a try.

Let it be said by our children's children that when we were tested, we refused to let this journey end, that we did not turn back, nor did we falter


[ Parent ]
I was in the streets yesterday (0.00 / 0)
and today I'm here trying to point out that "action" can mean more than what the US government does and using military might.

Have I been effective? Who knows.


"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
it's a bit like anti-racism (4.00 / 2)
a White person in the U.S. wouldn't say 'well i support anti-racism, so I'm going to ignore that I am White and otheer people are Black or Latino or Hmong..."  and be taken seriously in anti-racist work.  Saying that there is imperialism (which involves a lot more than military power - particularly the american variety) - doesn't mean that you do nothing - it just means that if you - like me - are coming from the more powerful place, you take account of that.  It's a note for caution and careful strategery and principles that try to give us much space and the lead to people actually in the place that's affected who share similar sensibilities to you- the people whose arms might be blown off or who might be denied their voices in an election or who might get a new style of government.

But I take your point completely - there is almost always something to do.  This was why I asked this question:  What exactly does international solidarity look like if it is really international and really in solidarity?  What does this work look like?  What are the principles it's based on (e.g. think globally act locally blah blah)?  What specific steps do people take?  Natasha gave some examples in her post of what she is doing and what she is not.  Do you agree with that approach or support more direct intervention by individual people, and why?

Also, I would note that this issue is taking place ina  context and there is a reason why everyone in the U.S. cares about the Iranian election being stolen but not any other elections being conducted or stolen or things that are far more oppressive to people outside the U.S.  To argue that we need to DO something about the iranian in election while there are American troops in Afghanistan and Iraq and there are several hundred thousand - maybe over a million - internally displaced persons in Pakistan in part because of American policy - that doesn't make sense to me.  Should Americans exercise their power over their own government to stop horrible things from happening without regard for borders if they are going to try to influence other governments?  I saw an article yesterday that speculated that Israel is considering military strikes on Iran and that this could potentially lead to Iraq being a theatre of operations for a wider war.  That sounds like another step towards WWIII to me and the U.S. government and by implication American people have far more power, right, and responsibility to affect that than they do to interfere in elections that most of us don't really understand very well.  If you want to help the people of Iran - don't pay your taxes and write a letter to the U.S. government why.

But if this is soething that one is passionate about
t and informed on and is comfortable knowing that the attention on Iran started as a propaganda effort, that U.S. involvement can be counterproductive, and that the likelihood of the U.S. and Iran becoming enmeshed in a war at some point int he next 30 years is not negligible - well, by all means, support these people and not others, though I don't see what could be done to actually support them.  Maybe moving to Iraq or Afghanistan and broadcasting pirate radio or moving to Iran and starting a health clinic...or funding something like that.  

Speaking of finding allies - is there a socialist party in Iran (even if it's not called that) that was or was not allowed to participate in this election?  I like to work with people who have similar sensibilities to me whcih usually means they are ideologically to the left of me because I am American :)  What's this third candidate like?  His supporters would be good to build support with.


[ Parent ]
what we can do is to lift sanctions and not surround the country with our troops, & demonize them -- for a start -- (4.00 / 1)
we have to do the things we can (possibly) affect in terms of our actions in the region.

our meddling in any way -- which we're probably still doing -- is not wanted by any Iranians -- except for those who will get richer as a result of it.


[ Parent ]
Context matters (4.00 / 1)
In Iran, and there are other countries where this is likely true as well, our history is so fraught that we can't really help anymore, except through our patience and expressions of support for their desire for democracy. What they really want from us is recognition of their independence and national sovereignty.

In other countries, the story may well be different, where the relationship has not deteriorated so badly as all that and we can be of more direct assistance.

With sweatshops, it's such a hard question. It becomes imo more of an issue of corporate, rather than governmental, accountability. I think we could do a lot by making corporations better regulated public actors, and working to undermine their political power.  


[ Parent ]
one thing we sometimes (used to) do is use aid/$$ as a stick for human rights, but (0.00 / 0)
that's stopped now --

they've abandoned prodding China on rights entirely, and Biden was just threatening Lebanon over Hezbollah being part of any coalition govt.

if this is about their rights and helping them change their situations for the better, starting with how we prod, cajole, reward, and/or threaten is key. Trade policy and agreements too -- -totally.

Look at how we kiss Saudi ass -- and they behead people and give no rights at all -- we do that for tons of dictators and hurt millions if not billions worldwide all the time.

and that's ignoring our actual military actions -- and arms shipments to countries that treat their people and others worse than dirt -- esp to Israel.

everything starts here -- and we harm people all over the world all the time in so many ways.


[ Parent ]
us aid used to harbor cia agents, from what i recollect (0.00 / 0)
I think it's a mistake to understand the way that the U.S. influences and controls other countries' solely as invasions and dramatic gestures like IMF structural adjustment poliies.  You can see this in, e.g., the funding that was attached to anti-abortion restrictions by the Bush Administration or the way that, for example, the Indian prime minister was a former IMF official (he's not the only one).

I think it goes beyond using power to enforce rights or restrictions on other peoples or states (most of the time...there are exceptions, e.g. the Sri Lanka ethnic cleansing recently, where i thoguht it was appropriate given the circumstances...) to actively working in partnership.  For the government it usually means working in partnership on a fair level with other governments that are less powerful (which they never do).  The Obama speech in Cairo was a good example of a beginning to this approach though at the end of the day the U.S. government is never going to be an anti-imperialist force unless it's against the imperialism of some other country or it serves selective ends (e.g. letting Afghan refugees into the U.S. during the Soviet Invasion).

So it falls to us, I think, to incorporate a respect and understanding for other people in our work.  I think it means working in partnership on a fair level with social movements in other countries - learning from them, visiting those places if possible (and for more than a 1990s imf or world bank style 1 week visit), assessing who we share certain sensibilities with, letting them control their own affairs and still being open and honest.  

This is all very abstract, but I think it makes sense in context - if you want to help garment workers in Bangladesh around their working conditions or LGBT people in Jamaica around homophobia, approach it as an issue in which you support their indigenous efforts if any exist, while obviously keeping an eye out for who's legit and who's not - just like in the U.S.


[ Parent ]
still (0.00 / 0)
it is possible, especially these days, to build person-to-person ties and even organisation to organisation.  It is possible to respect the independence and sovereignty of Iran while still working in solidarity - and following the lead of - pro-lgbt organisations and people in iran or pro-democracy activists.  But this involves taking it down from the level of the ideas in our own heads and what excites us (alone) to actually engaging with people to build a global movement rather than a national one.  I think it's very possible (e.g. see some of the work done around coca cola in various ways and some of my friends in the anti-sweatshop movement actually went and lived in producing countries and worked with people/NGOs/workers for several years).

[ Parent ]
I agree; wise advice (4.00 / 2)
Nor am I convinced that the election was stolen...it would appear that there is a deep split in the establishment, and both sides (perhaps in anticipation of a close vote) were looking to game this from the beginning.

It is riveting though, and I think one has to support the greens on the street, who are simply defiant in the face of a power grab.

If Obama strides into this thing, it could really backfire.


I should add (4.00 / 1)
although I've enjoyed the coverage over at HuffPost, it is taking on a "Remember the Maine" quality to it.

[ Parent ]
oy veh (0.00 / 0)
seriously?  that's atrocious.  i'm glad i haven't gone over there today.

[ Parent ]
And we know how great this worked out for the natives... (4.00 / 1)
This is exactly the kind of US reaction that has to be avoided. Why oh why can't folks learn from history?

Let it be said by our children's children that when we were tested, we refused to let this journey end, that we did not turn back, nor did we falter

[ Parent ]
I agree (4.00 / 2)
and Mousavi is not the clean gene that is being portrayed not an innocent in Iraq's internal conflicts.

My input:  You want to be an activist for this event, get informed.  And for G*d's sake, don't just go on feelings.

Obama needs to say out of this.


[ Parent ]
I like the concept of Farr, it is similar to the Chinese "Mandate of Heaven" (0.00 / 0)


Farr is in the eye of the beholder (0.00 / 0)
I suspect that more than a few fundamentalist christians in the US would claim that GWB had it by the bushel. The same goes for many that support Ahmedinejad.


"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
I generally agree (4.00 / 3)
But I think it always good to categorically condemn violent crack-downs and massacres regardless of who is doing it. Obama's response seems about right to me, too.

When it comes to the legitimacy of election results, we certainly have no credibility to criticize one way or another, so I agree that American's in general should keep their mouths shut about the outcome of Iranian elections. The Iranian people can speak for themselves, apparently.

I really liked the descriptions or Ali and Hussein


but when we commit, arm, and enable some massacres (like our Afghan bombs, and in Gaza, for instance), our condemnation is laughable to those (0.00 / 0)
who have the targets painted on themselves and their countries -- like Iran.

what does it really mean, and how does it actually help people elsewhere?

like -- knowing that millions of us protested and fought and marched against Iraq did nothing to help the millions we injured, killed, and displaced there -- Esp on rights issues.


[ Parent ]
I felt the same way (4.00 / 2)
about the marches protesting the Iraq war. I felt good in the early days when I marched. Later, when thousands of innocent Iraqis were dying because of our invasion, I felt helpless and sickened. It taught me that the American presidency is, at it's worst, a serial tyranny. The commander in chief can use the miltary for murder overseas and get away with it.

[ Parent ]
also, in the interests of collectively understanding better (4.00 / 1)
two quibbles-

my understanding that fitna was an islamic concept about divisions within the muslim community (ummah) that has been  understood to be about sectarianism.  Is this a misreading?

Also, I'm not sure if this was intended, but the first few paragraphs make it sound like Arabic and Sunni are interchangeable, as are Iranian (Persian) and Shi'ite.  I think this is unintended, and I guess the religious / ethnic distinction is an important distinction to bring up if it bears out, but the two shouldn't be conflated. For example, in Pakistan, there are Sunnis, Shi'as, Ahmedis, Christians, even Hindus - and the population is a wide range of ethnicities.  In some Gulf countries, the 'Arab' population is not a majority because of migrant labour.  Iraq everyone knows about.  etc etc etc.  And there are differences in terms of state laws even in states that are applying Islamic concepts in law and the ways in which they do it (e.g. if you compare how Pakistan and India apply Muslim divorce laws).

Okay, I've digressed.  Sorry!  Back to your scheduled programming.


You're right (0.00 / 0)
And as I was thinking about this post after writing it, I was worried that some might even take it to mean that I didn't think Arabic peoples (who are many of Iran's neighbors and that I think they tend to get lumped together with) had an interest in self-governance or more democracy - it's obvious that they do, but I think Iran was an early adopter for a reason and that if their democracy had been allowed to grow on its own, that whole region would be more democratic.

Instead, I think the lesson ended up being that democracy will get your government overthrown by the west. Iranians obviously, inspiringly, have refused to accept that as the final verdict of history.


[ Parent ]
i don't think it's democracy that causes domination (0.00 / 0)
it's just the attempt to establish autonomy from the interests of more powerful countries who can domestically and geopolitically get away with interfering (whether the Soviet Union, the United States, the British empire, France, India, or whoever else).  But for SOME reason, that frequently though not always seems to coincide with democracy. ;)

The point you raise - though - the relationship between 'culture' (as an accumulation of little social practices and beliefs) and political culture is important.  It's been off limits for a very long time and therefore is hard to get one's head around without being uninformed or coming across as the dreaded essentialist (who should be dreaded :))  Of course one could argue 'whose culture?' since different people by gender class sexuiality race ethnicity etc experience things differently within Iran or Jordan or the United States or Haiti or wherever else, but it's worth thinking about whether there are significant differences.  For example, to take an easy example - is there a difference between Canadian 'culture' and American 'culture'?  My guess is that there is.


[ Parent ]
Walk And Chew Gum (4.00 / 5)
Of course the US shouldn't interfere.  And for once, I think Obama's doing exactly the right thing as of now.

But we can also be quite vocally involved individually.  We can feel passionately without advocating coercion.  And we can be inspired by the Iranian people, who are, I would argue, a good deal more proactive than we Americans have been in quite some time.

We could learn a thing or three from them.  And caring about what they're going through is a great boon if one wishes to learn, also.

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


but what will you say in being vocal? (0.00 / 0)
how will it be organised?  On what ifnormation will it be based?  Who are the targets?

I think the best thing most americans can do right now is read a good book on th history of iran / american relations, learn more about the region, learn more about the history of american dominance through sources like William Blum (who puts most of his stuff on the Internet).  Blindly supporting X color revolution without understanding exactly what your'e participating in is a huge mistake - even if you accidentally end up on the right side - just like blindly opposing all actions taken by anyone who is American is a mistake.

For example, I liked the acton alert I posted that calls on Congress to stop being aggressive in its rhetoric towards Iran.  This serves everyone and does exactly what Natasha's advocating in this post.  I think following some of the events in Iran is interesting.  But will I engage in Denial of Service attacks without knowing who its harming ultimately - the government or the people - without trying to find out first?  No, probably not.


[ Parent ]
Selective vision (4.00 / 1)
"Well, I'm still glad no one invaded the US in order to interfere in the 2000 results. Look what's happened since: at the incredible progressive movement we've built, at the president we elected."

A few other things happened, too. The invasion of Afghanistan and the installmant of a token government, the invasion and occupation of Iraq, fumbles in North Korea, the empowerment of the fundamentalists in Iran, the spread of fighting into Pakistan, the bungled mess in the Gulf after Katrina, the gutting of our constitution and bill of rights, the strengthening of the National Security state, and a multitude of other issues that I'm sure I missed.

But, I suppose, from some perspectives the Coming of Obama is enough to wipe away all those other events, huh?

I contend that a little support from outside the US would have been very helpful in the aftermath of the 2000 election. Maybe with  some goading and support, we might have actually found the back-bone to occupy DC until the 2000 "results" were overthrown.  

"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


Come on, Spit, that's a strwman argument! (0.00 / 0)
"But, I suppose, from some perspectives the Coming of Obama is enough to wipe away all those other events, huh?"

Now, who said that? And who said that the rest of the world didn't have a right to oppose the invasion of Iraq, misguided anti-terrorist measures, or torture?

Natasha certainly hasn't said that. It's not her point at all.

And as for you complaining about a lack of "support from outside the US" during the 2000 election aftermath, did it escape your attention that a lot of people from all around the globes weighed in at US blogs? That the issue has been on the headlines of international newspapers and media for weeks?

What would you have expected? That our governments would have called the US ambassadors in and voiced their concern about the evidence of election fraud? This sure would have helped a lot. Or that we even would have intervened militarily? D'oh. Really, what?

And I want to add my personal opinion: If you wanted that, you, the US citizen, should have taken to the street in every major city, numbering hundreds of thousands. Why should anyone help people who are simply too lazy to fight for their rights?

Sry, I know that's harsh, but I'm really annoyed about you pointing fingers at us, when it actually were your people who didn't do enough to push for a fair and honest recount. The US voters of 2000 can't be compared to the brave folks in Iran now. Not even remotely.

Let it be said by our children's children that when we were tested, we refused to let this journey end, that we did not turn back, nor did we falter


[ Parent ]
I did take to the streets in 2000 (4.00 / 1)
Of course, being one person, I couldn't do so in every city. I was extremely disappointed that only about 20 other people joined me on the steps of our state capitol that day. A very low point in my nation's history.

The US voters in 200 ARE like those in Iran today in one basic respect: both groups are facing a situation in which their voting rights are not being fully respected.

Did the US protesters give up too easily? Yes. That's why I suggest that some help would have been welcome. Clearly we were not strong enough to mount an effective enough protest that could result in a change in the vote, or a re-vote. I'm not pointing fingers at the rest of the world, I was desperate for any support because my own fellow citizens were not standing with me.

The harshness is not an issue for me, Gray, I know I'm asking tricky questions that have no easy answers. But, that's not always a bad thing because, sometimes, folks tend to overlook the tough questions. I ask questions for 2 reasons: 1) because I don't know the answer and 2) because some questions need to be asked, even if they are annoying.


"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
but outside help would not have helped and would have triggered a massive backlash. we need -- still -- what Carter does overseas w/ elections -- (4.00 / 1)
just as outside help will do so in Iran

no one on any side wants foreign interference -- and our history with Iran makes it impossible for even good-intentioned interference to be seen as positive.


[ Parent ]
Kudos! So, it's not your fault. (0.00 / 0)
Of course, it's an open question if stronger protests in the streets would have changed anything. After all, the matter was for the courts to decide, and they are supposed to be independent. However, it would have been worth a try, just as a public display that people really cared about the fairness of the election.

Well, and sure, maybe we democrats (big D, too) abroad should have done more. Maybe the German government could have been pushed into officially showing their concern about the efforts of the Bush team to not get every vote counted. Who knows...

And no misunderstanding, pls, I support asking annoying questions. Very often, they are necessary to expose flaws in the logic, and to sharpen the arguments. And I have to admit that I don't really like "discussions" where everybody has the same opinion. What a bore...

Let it be said by our children's children that when we were tested, we refused to let this journey end, that we did not turn back, nor did we falter


[ Parent ]
Its still my "fault" to the extent that I'm a US citizen (0.00 / 0)
and we have not been vigilent in keeping our government in line and responsive to the citizens.  I'm not making excuses, for myself or anyone else. Maybe I should have done something more to prevent such fraudulent elections, rather than taking to the streets after the fact?

Can protests change the result? I look to the Orange Revolution in Ukraine for a partial "yes" to that question. But, that took far more than a 1 day "March on Washington" could ever hope to accomplish. Same goes for successful protests in US history. The civil rights movement used protests and other forms of civil disobedience effectively. Of course, street protests and sit-ins can only go so far. No way these can be the only means of opposition.

Let's not get caught up in the frame that all support from one nation to another has to go through the governments. I don't think that President Obama is the one to be calling for strong support of the street protests in Iran, nor do I think that the US military should get involved. That's why I highlight the vast expanse between wearing green and participating in sympathetic rallies and an all-out expansion of the American Empire through military means. I appreciate your citing the proxy server option (NeonBlack in QH) because its the kind of thing I'm talking about.



"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
don't forget Iran-Contra too -- & our support of Saddam/Iraq in the early 80s while they were at war (0.00 / 0)
-- we've never stopped harming Iranians with our actions.

& it's not just FL 2000 -- it's Ohio in 2004 too -- (4.00 / 1)
many went to jail over what they pulled there -- and we have no change of election procedures at all that help us -- we have the reverse, actually.

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