Iran & LSD--Liberal Social Democracy

by: Paul Rosenberg

Sun Jun 14, 2009 at 11:30


Juan Cole, Informed Comment:
observers who want to lay a guilt trip on us about falling for Mousavi's smooth upper middle class schtick are simply ignoring the last 12 years of Iranian history.

Today, the situation in Iran seems very much in flux, as street demonstrations continued for a second day.  Before discussing Iran specifically, though, I want to address the the larger world historical background.

In yesterday's discussion of what's happening in Iran, there was a lot of back and forth that seemed to me to be of the "Blind Men and the Elephant" kind--the Elephant being liberal social democracy.  The diary I wrote was about the events unfolding in Iran as part of a centuries-long struggle for liberal social democracy punctuated with several such crucial moments which I referred to, and since it seems the Elephant got lost a bit in that discussion, I thought it worthwhile to begin saying a few words about it.

First off, stealing elections is not democratic.  That's more or less ground zero for me.  Democracy that's not liberal does not protect individual rights. It would allow a democratic majority to arbitrarily put someone to death. And, of course, the right to vote--which of course includes the right to have it counted--os one of those rights.  Democracy that's not social does not recognize protect social and economic rights.  It would allow any number of people to starve to death.

That's why I see liberal social democracy as the minimal acceptable form of government.  And I see the struggle to achieve LSD on a worldwide basis as the great struggle of the past 250 years--a struggle we are still very much in the midst of.

The post-WWII expansion of widespread prosperity, leading to the first truly mass middle class, first centered in Western Europe and North America, then spreading around the globe, has seen a reorientation toward what are called "post-materialist values".  There is a great potential here, as this represents a great maturing in the potential for collective self-government, but there is a danger as well, to the extent that people born into conditions of basic material security may not appreciate what it has taken to achieve that state, or what it means that so many still live outside of it.

And now to Iran, specifically....

Paul Rosenberg :: Iran & LSD--Liberal Social Democracy
First, Juan Cole yesterday posted "Stealing the Iranian Election", which presented cogent evidence that the election results were not credible on their face.  Here are just the last two:

5. Ahmadinejad's numbers were fairly standard across Iran's provinces. In past elections there have been substantial ethnic and provincial variations.

6. The Electoral Commission is supposed to wait three days before certifying the results of the election, at which point they are to inform Khamenei of the results, and he signs off on the process. The three-day delay is intended to allow charges of irregularities to be adjudicated. In this case, Khamenei immediately approved the alleged results.

Now a longer excerpt from Juan Cole today, which explains quite well why this election should be seen as an outrage for the Iranian people, rather than an example of Western myopia (as if there weren't enough of those already):

Some comentators have suggested that the reason Western reporters were shocked when Ahmadinejad won was that they are based in opulent North Tehran, whereas the farmers and workers of Iran, the majority, are enthusiastic for Ahmadinejad. That is, we fell victim once again to upper middle class reporting and expectations in a working class country of the global south.

While such dynamics may have existed, this analysis is flawed in the case of Iran because it pays too much attention to class and material factors and not enough to Iranian culture wars. We have already seen, in 1997 and 2001, that Iranian women and youth swung behind an obscure former minister of culture named Mohammad Khatami and his 2nd of Khordad movement, capturing not only the presidency but also, in 2000, parliament.

Khatami received 70 percent of the vote in 1997. He then got 78% of the vote in 2001, despite a crowded field. In 2000, his reform movement captured 65% of the seats in parliament. He is a nice man, but you couldn't exactly categorize him as a union man or a special hit with farmers.

The evidence is that in the past little over a decade, Iran's voters had become especially interested in expanding personal liberties, in expanding women's rights, and in a wider field of legitimate expression for culture (not just high culture but even just things like Iranian rock music). The extreme puritanism of the hardliners grated on people.

The problem for the reformers of the late 1990s and early 2000s was that they did not actually control much, despite holding elected office. Important government policy and regulation was in the hands of the unelected, clerical side of the government. The hard line clerics just shut down reformist newspapers, struck down reformist legislation, and blocked social and economic reform. The Bush administration was determined to hang Khatami out to dry, ensuring that the reformers could never bring home any tangible success in foreign policy or foreign investment. Thus, in the 2004 parliamentary elections, literally thousands of reformers were simply struck off the ballot and not allowed to run. This application of a hard line litmus test in deciding who could run for office produced a hard line parliament, naturally enough....

Ahmadinejad's 2005 victory was made possible by the widespread boycott of the vote or just disillusionment in the reformist camp, meaning that fewer youth and women bothered to come out.

So to believe that the 20% hard line support of 2001 has become 63% in 2009, we would have to posit that Iran is less urban, less literate and less interested in cultural issues today than 8 years ago. We would have to posit that the reformist camp once again boycotted the election and stayed home in droves....

So observers who want to lay a guilt trip on us about falling for Mousavi's smooth upper middle class schtick are simply ignoring the last 12 years of Iranian history. It was about culture wars, not class. It is simply not true that the typical Iranian voter votes conservative and religious when he or she gets the chance. In fact, Mousavi is substantially more conservative than the typical winning politician in 2000. Given the enormous turnout of some 80 percent, and given the growth of Iran's urban sector, the spread of literacy, and the obvious yearning for ways around the puritanism of the hard liners, Mousavi should have won in the ongoing culture war.

And just because Ahmadinejad poses as a champion of the little people does not mean that his policies are actually good for workers or farmers or for working class women (they are not, and many people in that social class know that they are not).

So let that be an end to the guilt trip

Next, at Huffington Post, Nico Pitney is doing a bang-up job liveblogging the Iran election aftermath.

The most recent post:

10:02 AM ET -- Tossing away the notebook. New York Times columnist Roger Cohen has a powerful report from Tehran:

    She was in tears like many women on the streets of Iran's battered capital. "Throw away your pen and paper and come to our aid," she said, pointing to my notebook. "There is no freedom here." And she was gone, away through the milling crowds near the locked-down Interior Ministry spewing its pick-ups full of black-clad riot police. The "green wave" of Iran's pre-election euphoria had turned black. [...] Majir Mirpour grabbed me. A purple bruise disfigured his arm. He raised his shirt to show a red wound across his back. "They beat me like a pig," he said, breathless. "They beat me as I tried to help a woman in tears. I don't care about the physical pain. It's the pain in my heart that hurts." He looked at me and the rage in his eyes made me want to toss away my notebook.

And perhaps the most weighty post overnight, concern possible future developments in the next few days:

3:28 AM ET -- "There will be blood." I posted below on Trita Parsi's belief that Iran's reformists are "widely assumed" to be planning to challenge Ayatollah Khamenei.

Now Steve Clemons (of the New America Foundation and a HuffPost blogger) writes about a discussion he had in London with "a well-connected Iranian who knows many of the power figures in the Tehran political order."

    [T]he scariest point he made to me that I had not heard anywhere else is that this "coup by the right wing" has created pressures that cannot be solved or patted down by the normal institutional arrangements Iran has constructed. The Guardian Council and other power nodes of government can't deal with the current crisis and can't deal with the fact that a civil war has now broken out among Iran's revolutionaries. My contact predicted serious violence at the highest levels. He said that Ahmadinejad is now genuinely scared of Iranian society and of Mousavi and Rafsanjani. The level of tension between them has gone beyond civil limits -- and my contact said that Ahmadinejad will try to have them imprisoned and killed. Likewise, he said, Rafsanjani, Khatami, and Mousavi know this -- and thus are using all of the instruments at their control within Iran's government apparatus to fight back -- but given Khamenei's embrace of Ahmadinejad's actions in the election and victory, there is no recourse but to try and remove Khamenei. Some suggest that Rafsanjani will count votes to see if there is a way to formally dislodge Khamenei -- but this source I met said that all of these political giants have resources at their disposal to "do away with" those that get in the way.

Finally, from Gary Sick.  For those too young to remember, he was a rather prominent public figure during the Iran hostge crisis.  Wikipedia notes:

Sick served on the staff of the National Security Council under Presidents Ford, Carter, and Reagan, and was the principal White House aide for Persian Gulf affairs from 1976 to 1981, a period which included the Iranian revolution and the Hostage Crisis.

He has since worked in academia.  Yesterday, Sick wrote:

Iran's political coup

If the reports coming out of Tehran about an electoral coup are sustained, then Iran has entered an entirely new phase of its post-revolution history. One characteristic that has always distinguished Iran from the crude dictators in much of the rest of the Middle East was its respect for the voice of the people, even when that voice was saying things that much of the leadership did not want to hear.

In 1997, Iran's hard line leadership was stunned by the landslide election of Mohammed Khatami, a reformer who promised to bring rule of law and a more human face to the harsh visage of the Iranian revolution. It took the authorities almost a year to recover their composure and to reassert their control through naked force and cynical manipulation of the constitution and legal system. The authorities did not, however, falsify the election results and even permitted a resounding reelection four years later. Instead, they preferred to prevent the president from implementing his reform program.

In 2005, when it appeared that no hard line conservative might survive the first round of the presidential election, there were credible reports of ballot manipulation to insure that Mr Ahmadinejad could run (and win) against former president Rafsanjani in the second round. The lesson seemed to be that the authorities might shift the results in a close election but they would not reverse a landslide vote.

The current election appears to repudiate both of those rules. The authorities were faced with a credible challenger, Mir Hossein Mousavi, who had the potential to challenge the existing power structure on certain key issues. He ran a surprisingly effective campaign, and his "green wave" began to be seen as more than a wave. In fact, many began calling it a Green Revolution. For a regime that has been terrified about the possibility of a "velvet revolution," this may have been too much.

Looking forward tentative, Sick writes:

It is still too early for anything like a comprehensive analysis of implications, but here are some initial thoughts:
  1. The willingness of the regime simply to ignore reality and fabricate election results without the slightest effort to conceal the fraud represents a historic shift in Iran's Islamic revolution. All previous leaders at least paid lip service to the voice of the Iranian people. This suggests that Iran's leaders are aware of the fact that they have lost credibility in the eyes of many (most?) of their countrymen, so they are dispensing with even the pretense of popular legitimacy in favor of raw power.
  2. The Iranian opposition, which includes some very powerful individuals and institutions, has an agonizing decision to make. If they are intimidated and silenced by the show of force (as they have been in the past), they will lose all credibility in the future with even their most devoted followers. But if they choose to confront their ruthless colleagues forcefully, not only is it likely to be messy but it could risk running out of control and potentially bring down the entire existing power structure, of which they are participants and beneficiaries.
  3. With regard to the United States and the West, nothing would prevent them in principle from dealing with an illegitimate authoritarian government. We do it every day, and have done so for years (the Soviet Union comes to mind). But this election is an extraordinary gift to those who have been most skeptical about President Obama's plan to conduct negotiations with Iran. Former Bush official Elliott Abrams was quick off the mark, commenting that it is "likely that the engagement strategy has been dealt a very heavy blow." Two senior Israeli officials quickly urged the world not to engage in negotiations with Iran. Neoconservatives who had already expressed their support for an Ahmadinejad victory now have every reason to be satisfied.   Opposition forces, previously on the defensive, now have a perfect opportunity to mount a political attack that will make it even more difficult for President Obama to proceed with his plan.

In their own paranoia and hunger for power, the leaders of Iran have insulted their own fellow revolutionaries who have come to have second thoughts about absolute rule and the costs of repression, and they may have alienated an entire generation of future Iranian leaders. At the same time, they have provided an invaluable gift to their worst enemies abroad.

However this turns out, it is a historic turning point in the 30-year history of Iran's Islamic revolution. Iranians have never forgotten the external political intervention that thwarted their democratic aspirations in 1953. How will they remember this day?

How indeed.  What about you?

Here's my one thought to kick things off:  America can do very little, even in the way of saying anything, given our atrocious history, most importantly, our role in overthrowing Mosadegh in 1953.  I learned about this ten years later, as a young teen, when an Iranian foreign exchange student came to live with us. So this isn't merely a piece of academic history to me.  I still feel the sense of outrage that this was done in our name that I felt when Said told me about it 46 years ago.  We have never done anything to mitigate this terrible crime, we have only added to it.  It would be an enormous benefit if Obama were to start owning up to our past in the Middle East.  His continued covering up of Bush era crimes is not keeping our troops safe there, but is only limiting our capacity to have a beneficial influence.  Were he courageous enough to speak candidly of how we have gone astray in the past, he would open an enormous space for honesty, repentance, and renewed trust. That could give us real influence that would be invaluable in a situation like that in Iran today.  But instead, we have virtually nothing.

It's time for us to free ourselves from the mistakes of our past to the best of our abilities.  It's time for truth.  If we're willing to take our first step, others are eager to follow.  They're tugging on us even now to follow our own best instincts.

What say you?


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Azar Nafisi, author of "Reading Lolita in Tehran" has a piece in (4.00 / 3)
Al Jazeera. She emphasizes that,
"The US government is sometimes silly in its response to Iran. For them, supporting human rights translates into giving money to various groups and individuals and to have a hostile stance on the country. But the point is not to go behind one individual but to give voice to the people. Shirin Ebadi, the Nobel prize-winning lawyer, is someone whose faith in Islam cannot be disputed. The media should give as much space to her as to Ahmadinejad."

Her piece is an optimistic one- "RLiT" is an optimistic book, also-, but worth a read:
http://english.aljazeera.net/n...


Of Course, But (4.00 / 3)
why should we be any more enlightened with respect to Iran than we are with respect to ourselves?

I don't mean to be snarky here.  I agree wholeheartedly with her point.  It's just that we so clearly lack the capacity to even understand what she's talking about--as can be seen, for example, in the total shutout of single-payer from the health care debate.  

Give voice to the people?  You've got to be kidding!

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
And this is precisely why any effort to "undo" our past mistakes is still doomed... (4.00 / 2)
... for the time being at least. I like your idea very much, but that is a rather long-term project, since it's not just about admitting our crimes (which requires the willingness to even look at them honestly), but rather radically altering our foreign policy to a more enlightened position.

I don't see much of any enlightenment in the current bunch. Obama himself is steadfast in his opposition to even looking honestly at what we do and what we've done. His insulting line to the Latin American leaders about "some people have some perceptions of prior US behavior" was most telling.

Lastly, while a large part of the Iranian population is seeking freedom and rights for themselves, our own government is slamming that door on it's own people. I wouldn't expect too much from Obama on the human rights front, since he stands opposed to that very idea.

When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it.

-- Frederic Bastiat, "The Law", 1850


[ Parent ]
As I said, she's an optimist. Refreshing, but convincing? Time will tell. n/t (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
I'm An Optimist, Too (0.00 / 0)
In fact, I believe believe in miracles, because I've seen them.

I just think I've got a sense of the order in which miracles are most likely to happen.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Well written, but we need a better plan for what the USA should do (0.00 / 0)
Great article, but think we have to do better in coming up with a US response than "apologize and blame Bush".  Bush's opposition to the regime in Teheran, though ineffective, now seems to be morally correct.  And Obama's notable speech in Cairo, which was a good start on the "lets be friends" idea, seems to have had no effect on the regime (though it may have inspired the people - time will tell).

That said, I'm afraid I don't have a very good idea either.   Maybe try to strengthen links to the Iranian liberals through some Shiite allies in Iraq?  (Yes, I know it's a lot more complicated, but this is a germ of a start...)

I know we've differed in the past, but good job here.  Nice job presenting the facts.


Well, An Abrupt About Face On Torture Is Certainly Something Specific (0.00 / 0)
It's not just "apologize and blame Bush."  To the contrary, we not only overthrew their democracy in 1953, and helped bring the Shah beck to power, we then supported them militarily till the Shah was kicked out, and trained their secret police --Savak--in how to torture their own people.  So this goes way back, long before Bush.

Rather, Bush should be seen as the logical extreme that simply serves to make vividly plain the moral horror that was there from the start.  We need to repudiate the entire history, and that means that we need to know what it is, first.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
i'm surprised that you never explicitly noted that obama (0.00 / 0)
was the first president ever to acknowledge that the US was involved in the coup.  this seems like the most direct way to recognize and repudiate the history of which you speak.

nevertheless, i agree with your points about torture and iraq.  


[ Parent ]
Yes - Obama has already done what Paul asked (4.00 / 1)
he has repudiated torture and, if not apologized for, has commented on our involvement in the coup.  

Here's an idea: Obama says something like "we apologize for 1953, and, as part of our penance, it is our duty to see that democracy succeeds this time, therefor we will help the liberals as part of our apology".  (I'm sure he would be a lot more elegant!)  In this way, instead of some Iranians having a knee-jerk anti-US reaction against the liberals we are trying to help, they see it as part of our apology and support it.

Could that work?


[ Parent ]
how would he "help" the liberals? (0.00 / 0)
that is my main question here.  any overt CIA or military activity would likely strengthen Ahmadinejad's hand, since the Iranian military would be much more easily convinced that all protesters were potentially foreign-inspired enemies of the Islamic Republic.  as it is, there are some (admittedly highly questionable) reports that the military is balking at repressing the protesters:

http://www.dailykos.com/commen...


[ Parent ]
Yes, at this point I sortof wave my hands and say "a miracle occurs" :-) (4.00 / 1)
I do think that some firm words from Obama supporting Mousavi, and denouncing repression, making sure he remains free, would be of some use.  Not sure how much more is possible.

Ideally, some in the Iranian military would approach us about how to resolve this peacefully in favor of Mousavi.  Crossing fingers...)


[ Parent ]
pretty much agreed here. nt. (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
No And Yes (0.00 / 0)
Obama hasn't done what I've asked.  He's expanding the war in Afghanistan, he's closing the books on Bush-era torture, he's failed to do anything substantive that potential allies in the Muslim world can hang their hats on (as opposed to their hopes for magic ponies).

What you're suggesting Obama could say would be a hell of a lot more effective if Obama could also say, "We're dealing with our painful past as well, and fully investigating everything that lead to the criminal torture and brutality that occurred at Abu Ghraib and elsewhere."

It's a very hard sell to say you're for openness, breaking with the past and making tough choices for a better future when you're doing the exact opposite yourself.

This may seem like an artificial connection I'm making.  But I very much doubt if anyone in Iran would see it that way.  I certaonly know my old friend Said would not.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
with all due respect, you actually are speculating about your friend, here. (0.00 / 0)
i'd love to see that happen too; i just don't really know if it has a whole lot of relevance to what is happening in iran.  do you have evidence for this connection?

in terms of afghanistan, there isn't a whole lot of love in iran for the taliban, and if bush (really cheney) had been less ideological, they may have had an ally for their afghan war in iran.  again, i'm open to the possibility that afghan policy is a major issue in iran, but i don't see any evidence to this effect.  

finally, i think we need to see this as being bigger than obama.  there are certain other forces that could react to the actions you are advocating in ways that might have a negative effect in iran and elsewhere.  for instance, what if obama was, after doing what you advocate, now having to deal with massive resistance from the american and israeli right (and center right)--not to mention the US military--for his radical shift in US foreign policy?  wouldn't the threat that israel might go it alone against iran be a problem, not least in iran?  what if the generals broke with obama, were fired, and then we had to watch petraeus on TV every day talking about how dangerous obama's policies were.  would that not weaken obama's position domestically, perhaps to the point of preventing him from carrying out the reforms you advocate?  think about how much support he is getting from congressional democrats for closing guantanamo.  i think this is much bigger than obama, and requires at minimum a major social movement in the US that is calling for these kinds of transformations.        


[ Parent ]
to clarify: i'm saying about afghanistan that the US escalation there is not (0.00 / 0)
necessarily generating a backlash in iran against the US.  

[ Parent ]
Iran offered to help in Afghanistan (4.00 / 1)
While Paul's comments make sense, I also think they involve some wishful thinking on human nature.  Yes, everyone hate hypocrisy, but not everyone sees the same parallels and, thus, the same hypocrisies.

As they say, all politics is local.  I strongly suspect most Iranians are very focused on Iran and not the U.S. outside of the context of Iran.


[ Parent ]
They're Still Muslims (4.00 / 1)
Do Iranians identify with Afghans in lockstep?  No, of course not.  But we are still killing innocent Muslim civilians there, and that doesn't win us any points, particularly when there's the whole gestalt of related issues I presented together.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
maybe that is true. but i haven't seen any evidence. (0.00 / 0)
there are significant divisions between these groups, and the idea that people identify as muslims above all else is questionable, to say the least.  

[ Parent ]
I Never Said They Identify As Muslims Above All Else (4.00 / 1)
I'm just pointing out there are good reasons why US bombing innocent Afghan civilians would figure into a gestalt of continued distrust, and why not doing that would figure into a gestalt of building new trust.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
That Was Important Certainly (0.00 / 0)
And it's part of what encouraged the Green Wave activism.

I didn't mention it only because I'm pretty tightly focused here on the question of what we can do now, and I'm afraid that simply acknowledging a past that everyone in Iran already knows will not win any more points with the folks who remain opposed to the Green Wave.  That would require something more fundamental.  Something more than a hint of a potential opening, which I'm afraid is all that most reasonable Iranians in their political elite can see from Obama so far.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
i guess i would question how significant the question of detainee (0.00 / 0)
rights is in iran.  i would hope that it is very significant, but i don't actually see any evidence of this.  

in fact, it seems to me that what obama said about nuclear energy in cairo is potentially more pertinent than what he said about anything else.  ultimately, though, i'm not sure how much this is about the US, or obama.  it seems MUCH more like a pretty conventional legitimation crisis faced by a 'soft' dictatorship in the midst of an economic crisis.  as such, while i certainly would agree about the importance of a major shift in US foreign policy, i'm not actually sure if that is the most pertinent issue at this point.      


[ Parent ]
I Disagree On Several Points (4.00 / 1)
I'm no expert on contemporary Iran.  But I do know that our role in overthrowing Mossadegh, restoring the Shah, and supporting and training his repressive secret police, Savak, were all part of the same story I first heard from my friend Said 46 years ago.  And I find it very difficult to believe that there's no resonance left from that narrative today.  To the contrary, I think that those most familiar with it are precisely those older and more skeptical people whose support could help tip the balance in Iran.

As I said, I'm no expert on Iran, but I do know something about it, and do pay more attention than most. And I simply do not think of this as "a pretty conventional legitimation crisis faced by a 'soft' dictatorship in the midst of an economic crisis."  That's why I included the passages I did from Cole and Sick.  Iran is going through an historic process which has been under way for 30 years now.  It's like Germany during the Reformation, a period of several generations whose impact will ripple down through time, totally transforming the cultural and political fabric of the society.  The economic situation there is merely adding a bit of stress to the situation.  It's by no means driving anything.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
i think you mistook my comments about the legitimation crisis. (0.00 / 0)
i wasn't saying that the economic crisis was driving it, but that it was a contributing factor.  yes, there is a lot of history particular to iran.  that is, in a way, precisely my point. this is an iranian story, above all else; and what is happening is that the regime is facing a legitimation crisis because of what it is doing to its people (denying them the electoral representation they had promised, beating them up in the streets, facing massive riots).  that is, in many ways, consistent with what happens in legitimation crises generally.  

if there was any evidence that people in iran were really looking towards the US to clean its house w/rt torture before jumping into the conflict raging on the streets today, i'd welcome it.  i just think you are stretching here in order to push an agenda that you (and i) rightfully feel should be pushed.  


[ Parent ]
I Think We're Both Misreading Where The Accents Lie (4.00 / 1)
in what each other are saying.

So rather than continue the pattern by nit-picking this last comment of yours, I'll just say that I think we agree a lot more than the last several comments might lead someone (even us) to believe.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Right. It's not just the coup, it's the 26 years of bloodletting that is seared... (4.00 / 3)
... in people's minds. It's the mutilated bodies found in the streets and the disappeared relatives that people remember.

It was nice of Obama to cop to the coup, but that's just a baby step. He repudiates torture with the exact same words as Bush, "We do not torture." Who's going to believe that as long as Obama keeps promoting torturers into higher positions within his administration and seeks to shred the constitution in order to cover up past crimes? Only Americans think that will help.

This is why I say any such rehabilitation in the eyes of the world is a longer term project and Obama himself keeps pushing back that day every week with each new iteration of his State Secrecy proposals.

It's not just the ME, though, as this also goes for much of Africa, Asia (where Cambodians and Laos are still getting blown up by our cluster munitions), most of Central and South America and even Mexico, with their own little "dirty wars" in the '60s and early '80s. And Chiapas. Oh, Mexico is doing it again right now as well and we're up to our proverbial necks in that one as well. Oh, and the massacre of Amazonian people over US oil and gas leases is now in high gear in Peru. We're still doing what we've always done and no amount of pretty speechifying will change that... except in the eyes of Americans.

If Obama wants to help the Greens, which I doubt, he'll stay cool on the matter. His "help" will only undermine them. We don't have any credibility, except as the global hegemonic usurer and that's a position earned with decades of awful behavior. It will take a lot of effort to change that.

When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it.

-- Frederic Bastiat, "The Law", 1850


[ Parent ]
i don't read the events of the last few days in the same (0.00 / 0)
way as you, at least in terms of what it means w/rt Bush and Obama's respective approaches.  seems to me that what we have been seeing recently is actually a breakdown of 'the regime in Teheran.'  the internal fractures that were usually kept under the surface have burst forth, which has (and could continue to have) major repercussions in terms of the legitimacy of the regime in iran and abroad.  bush gave the regime more legitimacy and cohesiveness; obama's speech was part of a much bigger process (that in many ways has nothing to do with him) that has majorly wounded the regime's legitimacy and unity.  

i would say that the worst case scenario would be for ahmadinejad to consolidate power sufficiently to make him gain a modicum of legitimacy around the world and in iran.  this would definitely put obama in a bind, as he will have more trouble justifying engagement in that situation, but will risk strengthening the hardliners' hands if he becomes belligerent.  alternatively, we might be witnessing the beginning of an extended struggle for power in iran, and hopefully people around the world, possibly including the obama administration, can contribute in small ways to the strengthening of the iranian opposition.      


[ Parent ]
We already have close ties (0.00 / 0)
to iranian, ehem "liberals" or rather neoliberals.  That maybe the problem there.  

I am not sure this was a coup.  It seems that Amadinajad is a strange socially conservative, social democrat, and the opposition are socially liberal, neoliberals that many poor people in Iran don't like.  I don't deny the fact that Iran isn't a liberal democracy but that choice was taken away in 1953.

Feminists in Iran need to start aligning themeselves with social democrats, that will help women of all classes, and not neoliberals, that will only help rich women.

Bottom line is that this is a problem for the Iranian people to deal with.


[ Parent ]
i would suggest you read juan cole's column on this. (0.00 / 0)
the idea that the "choice for liberal democracy was taken away in 1953" is ridiculous.  was the choice for democrats in the US taken away in 2000?  the choice for french republicanism in 1848-52? since when were possible social and political transformations foreclosed for all time after a single tragedy?

ahmadinejad is not a "social democrat."  he is a rightist populist, with some proximity to fascism.  if you squint a great deal you can start seeing economic policies that look a bit like those that a social democratic administration might put forward, but you could say the same about mussolini's italy.

feminists in iran are fighting for basic civil equality, something that rightists are opposing because they are unwilling to accept women's autonomy.  iranian feminists are aligned with left labor movements.  this is not an upper class versus working class story, as much as the faux populist media (including some 'left' media) would like to suggest.    



[ Parent ]
I read his column (0.00 / 0)
I have long noticed he tends to be economically conservative and sounds like alan greenspan whenever he discusses economic issues.  He thinks inflation is a more important concern for the poor than wages and benefits, when in fact it is more of a concern for finance capital and investers.  Sorry it sounds like the criticisms of Hugo Chavez, and other lefties.

[ Parent ]
inflation is a concern for the poor, if inequality is also rising.... (4.00 / 1)
as it did under ahmadinejad, or if wealth isn't being created and broadly distributed.  it lowers everyone's standard of living, bc they can't buy as much as they otherwise could have.  but i'm not particularly invested in cole's politics.  as i pointed out below, social democrats in the US also are saying very similar things about iran (danny postel, for instance).  also, see the past articles in the nation about iran.  

you haven't addressed the substance of my post about iranian labor leaders and feminists, or about ahmadinejad's politics.  


[ Parent ]
We don't know inequality is rising (0.00 / 0)
in Iran.  The neoliberal publications made the same claims about Chavez but other statistics show it is declining.

[ Parent ]
i said that it had raised during ahmadinejad's term, (0.00 / 0)
not necessarily that it was increasing now.  the posts that say it is declining nevertheless acknowledge that it has increased since ahmadinejad took office.  

i'm open to a credible claim that ahmadinejad's policies are having a great effect for the working classes, but what i have seen seems to suggest otherwise.  the story in venezuela is rather different, as chavez has worked to nationalize industries, and has been promoting eduction and health.  these policies have better potential to decrease inequality AND build real wealth for the people over time.  


[ Parent ]
It's The Wealth Creation, Stupid! (4.00 / 1)
the story in venezuela is rather different, as chavez has worked to nationalize industries, and has been promoting eduction and health.  these policies have better potential to decrease inequality AND build real wealth for the people over time.  

This is the key indicator we need to become universally attuned to.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
What Social Democrats? (4.00 / 1)
Feminists in Iran need to start aligning themeselves with social democrats, that will help women of all classes, and not neoliberals, that will only help rich women.

Ahmadinejad is not a social democrat, any more than Bismarck was, just because he stole the Social Democrats' main platform plank to undermine them when he introduced universal healthcare in Germany in 1880.  But Ahmadinejad is nowhere near even being like Bismarck. In US terms, he's closer to Huckabee, probably, than anyone else.

How would you like some Iranian woman lecturing you on how American feminists ought to align themselves with Huckabee?


"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
they should align themselves to left social democrats (0.00 / 0)
and not the equivalent of Tony Blair, which is unpopular mostly everywhere right now.

I just think this maybe a "What's the matter with Kansas?" situation and not a coup.  I believe it is possible that liberalizers have given up on social justice so the poor aren't interested in them anymore and are voting for Huckabee types.


[ Parent ]
but you have no evidence to this effect: (4.00 / 1)
I believe it is possible that liberalizers have given up on social justice so the poor aren't interested in them anymore and are voting for Huckabee types.

it is certainly a compelling story, and one that ahmadinejad and his apologists (including in the US media) will certainly tell in the coming days, but it isn't actually, you know, true that social democrats are absent from the reformist camp.  


[ Parent ]
as you said this maybe like eastern (0.00 / 0)
in which case the social democrats are stupidly supporting a bunch of neoliberal radical privatizers, rather than making there own way.

[ Parent ]
if you want to make this argument, you need to be a lot more (0.00 / 0)
nuanced about it.  the left loosely aligned with the reformists because the condition of everyone in eastern european states was quite bad, including labor.  in many cases, leftists enabled the openings that ultimately led to the transformations that came later (and that were, in many respects, damaging economically).  in some ways, a similar story can be told about the iranian revolution, except that the left was more definitively on the 'outside' at the beginning of that revolution.

the left failed to win control of the revolutions once they began -- conservative nationalist forces mostly won control, in large part because of the power of the church over society.  had they "made their own way," they wouldn't have gone anywhere (because they would have lacked mass support).  the problem was that they were unable to turn mass mobilizations in a leftward direction (in part because of conditions particular to the cold war -- i.e. conditions that would not pertain any longer).        


[ Parent ]
so then Amadinijad may have more massive (0.00 / 0)
support than you think and this may not be a coup but a loss!

[ Parent ]
Actually, Kodos Won, Big Time! (0.00 / 0)
A magic pony told me so!

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
um, no. the church (like the iranian religious leaders) had popular support (0.00 / 0)
BECAUSE they had supported the revolutions, and because they had been repressed in the previous regimes.  it is a completely different situation in iran now, where the conservative religious forces ARE the regime that lacks legitimacy in the eyes of the majority of its people.

but if you think that an apparent inconsistency in my argument proves that ahmadinejad has mass support in iran, against all of the evidence, be my guest.  


[ Parent ]
I didn't say it proves anything (0.00 / 0)
I just said maybe they are more popular than everyone thinks and there is some evidence to this effect, and much disagreement on the facts.

[ Parent ]
this is very well put: (4.00 / 1)
How would you like some Iranian woman lecturing you on how American feminists ought to align themselves with Huckabee?

but there are social democrats in iran: participants in the labor movement.  these ppl are aligned with the reformists, much as leftists were aligned with the reformists in eastern europe during the 1980s.  


[ Parent ]
and we know that when the commies (0.00 / 0)
fell those leftists were left in the dirt and the radical privatizers took over, so eastern europe still isn't sweden.  

[ Parent ]
yes, and as i pointed out above, that had a lot to do with (4.00 / 1)
cold war politics (i.e., in germany, people in the east wanted to reunite with the west, and the parties in the west that were really active in the first elections in the east were the more conservative parties).  also, issues with currency had a huge role -- issues that were particular to the cold war, and that wouldn't apply in iran.  

my point in drawing the comparison was to say that the left aligns itself with liberal forces under authoritarian regimes for good reason, and that while there are risks of the reforms turning in a rightward direction, that doesn't mean that the left should avoid participating in the reformist movement.  to do so would be to effectively sanction the repressive state, and thus lose all popular legitimacy.  


[ Parent ]
I Know! They Could Align With Iran's Ron Paul! (4.00 / 1)
Yeah, that's the ticket!

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
conservative parties were "more active"? Uh, sry, but no! (0.00 / 0)
They weren't more active, they just made the bigger promises! Like you note passingle as only a minor point, Kohl was for exchanging Ostmark into DM at 1:1, while some in the SPD, most prominently Oskar Lafontaine (who later cofounded new left wing party Die Linke) were much more hesitant, and warned of wasting Billions of taxes. Also, left wing critics questioned the reasonablity of uniting Eastern and Western economy in one step, fearing the advanced competition would effectively drive former state owned companies out of business and result in the termination of millions of jobs oin the East. Imho they were right, very little bang for the buck came out of Kohl's conservative policy, and some results are simply unfair, for instance that the average retiree in the East now receives higher social security payments than his Western counterpart. But, of course, the East Germans voted for the party that would not hesitate in bribing them!

So, it was pure self interest, and not some different level of activism that had the biggest influence. With all due respect towards a fellow commenter who has a great record of raising factually based points in blog discussions, but pls do not distort the history of the "Wende" in order to make a point, Seabrook!


[ Parent ]
Good Points! (0.00 / 0)
I remember this history, though of course, not nearly in the degree of detail that you do.  

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Which was a surprise to me (4.00 / 1)
as when I was in CR in 1999, that's exactly what people I met said they wanted: something like the Swedish model.

But you're right, the radicals took over instead.


[ Parent ]
I think the truth (0.00 / 0)
is that there is little we can do.

There is a Western narcissism that informs so much of our understanding of the World.  This narcissism extends from the neo-cons on the right to someone like Chomsky on the left, who see the West in general and the US in particular as the decisive actor in all matters.

But we are not in Iran, and I am skeptical that we can be.  Here is the fundamental truth: there is a serious struggle in the Islamic World about how Islam and the modern world should be reconciled.  It is impossible for anyone outside the Islamic world to have much of an impact on this argument, in large part because outsiders cannot really know the experience of being a Muslim.  That experience cannot be understood simply because you read the Koran.  I could no more expect to influence this debate than I could hope to be relevant in argument between a reform and a conservative Jew  (I am a really bad Methodist)/

Westerners do not want to accept this fact for any number of reasons.  

In places in Iran (and Iraq) the best we can do is be bystanders.  


[ Parent ]
Sorry To Disagree (0.00 / 0)
But my friend Said certainly didn't believe this.  Despite what the US had done to his country, he thought that American citizens could make a huge difference, if only they learned about what was being done in their name.

Are there limits to what we can do? Of course!  But that hardly means we can do nothing.  And this is much more of a political struggle anyone can understand than the fundamentalists would like you to believe.


"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Why do we think (4.00 / 1)
we even know what is the correct course of action?  Because we read the newspaper, the Koran in translation and have a friend or two?

It's vanity.

We don't understand this situation.  We do not, I would argue, understand the entire Middle East very well.  

Answer this: when have we EVER correctly understood the political situation there?


[ Parent ]
. (0.00 / 0)
I agree. This idea that we are just going to apologize and acknowledge our way into breaking down Iran's antiwest posture (especially in 6 months) is ridiculous. This is fundamentally Iran's struggle and the best we can do is not give Ahmadinejad propaganda ammo or legitimize his victory.

America has this strange captain-save-a-ho syndrome. Unless we plan on establishing a puppet government rather then giving Ahmmy ammo to say that we are we should be minimalist over there. And we damn sure shouldn't be shouldn't be thinking about how can exert american influence over there.


[ Parent ]
Who's "We"? (0.00 / 0)
There's a very long history of Westerners understanding rather well, and being ignored by their superiors.

And that's hardly limited to the Middle East.

Which is one reason global peer-to-peer communication holds so much promise for our common future.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Who (0.00 / 0)
I haven't read them.

Most western writings on the Middle East are muddled at best.  Maybe, and I mean maybe, Robert Fisk has something to say.    


[ Parent ]
Gotta love Elliott (0.00 / 0)
Reading Elliott Abrams quote made me laugh. Of course he immediately uses the situation in Iran to promote his view that we should never ever negotiate with the Iranians. We should bomb them instead.

The problem, as you point out, is that engagement will still be possible once the Iranians sort themselves out but it can only be done if Obama has the good sense to put our engagement into an historical context. We can't engage for the sake of engaging. We have to engage acknowledging that in the past we supported exactly the opposite. It's both a matter of showing respect to the Iranians and realpolitik.

Of course, if we do engage the Iranians this way, we want in return significant tolerance towards Jews and Israel and a reduction if not cessation of their nuclear ambitions. But that's way down the road. Today the Iranians have to decide what sort of government they want.


i have to say this post seems majorly out of touch w/rt (4.00 / 1)
what is happening in iran right now.  you say: "the iranians have to decide what sort of government they want."  they just did, and the military and hardliners in the regime are trying to prevent that decision from having any effect.  if they are successful, obama would be negotiating with the forces who carried out what is essentially a right-wing coup.  this would not exactly be the same as "showing respect to the iranians."      

[ Parent ]
We don't know that a coup took place (0.00 / 0)
and we have a history of coups in Iran too, so the Iranian people will not trust us.  Maybe Amadinijad won and Mosavi is the coup plotter?

[ Parent ]
Please Go Read Juan Cole From Yesterday (4.00 / 1)
Not just the snippet I quoted.  This simply is not a credible interpretation in light of the purported voting patterns.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
voting patterns change alot over the coarse of (0.00 / 0)
ten years.  Otherwise we would have elected McCain.  I've always noticed Juan Cole had a soft spot for neoliberal economics.  Just because he agrees with us on Iraq doesn't make him a good social democrat.

[ Parent ]
alright, you want the perspective of a social democrat? (4.00 / 1)
try danny postel's 'reading legitimation crisis in iran.'

and your example of mccain actually supports cole's point.  in iran, a reformist won after a massive turnout in 2000, and then lost 2 to 1 after a similarly massive turnout in 2009.  that would be like gore winning big in 2000 with a 70% turnout, and then mccain winning 2 to 1 in 2008 with an 80% turnout.  not plausible.  sure, things change, but what you are suggesting is really hard to square with everything that is known about iranian electoral politics, which is what cole is pointing out.        


[ Parent ]
I don't think we know much about Iranian (0.00 / 0)
electoral politics or anything else in a country we don't live in.

[ Parent ]
And Yet YOU'RE The One Going Around Labelling People "Social Democat" And "Neo-liberal" (4.00 / 2)
Interesting.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
No I just said (0.00 / 0)
that many people have observed that the reformers pursue neoliberal economic reforms and the non reformers are opposing them so Amadinijad maybe more popular than you think and the reformers less so.

[ Parent ]
But This Ignores All The Other Evidence of Electoral Fraud (4.00 / 1)
Here's the whole 6 points Cole cited yesterday:

1. It is claimed that Ahmadinejad won the city of Tabriz with 57%. His main opponent, Mir Hossein Mousavi, is an Azeri from Azerbaijan province, of which Tabriz is the capital. Mousavi, according to such polls as exist in Iran and widespread anecdotal evidence, did better in cities and  is popular in Azerbaijan. Certainly, his rallies there were very well attended. So for an Azeri urban center to go so heavily for Ahmadinejad just makes no sense. In past elections, Azeris voted disproportionately for even minor presidential candidates who hailed from that province.

2. Ahmadinejad is claimed to have taken Tehran by over 50%. Again, he is not popular in the cities, even, as he claims, in the poor neighborhoods, in part because his policies have produced high inflation and high unemployment. That he should have won Tehran is so unlikely as to raise real questions about these numbers. [Ahmadinejad is widely thought only to have won Tehran in 2005 because the pro-reform groups were discouraged and stayed home rather than voting.)

3. It is claimed that cleric Mehdi Karoubi, the other reformist candidate, received 320,000 votes, and that he did poorly in Iran's western provinces, even losing in Luristan. He is a Lur and is popular in the west, including in Kurdistan. Karoubi received 17 percent of the vote in the first round of presidential elections in 2005. While it is possible that his support has substantially declined since then, it is hard to believe that he would get less than one percent of the vote. Moreover, he should have at least done well in the west, which he did not.

4. Mohsen Rezaie, who polled very badly and seems not to have been at all popular, is alleged to have received 670,000 votes, twice as much as Karoubi.

5. Ahmadinejad's numbers were fairly standard across Iran's provinces. In past elections there have been substantial ethnic and provincial variations.

6. The Electoral Commission is supposed to wait three days before certifying the results of the election, at which point they are to inform Khamenei of the results, and he signs off on the process. The three-day delay is intended to allow charges of irregularities to be adjudicated. In this case, Khamenei immediately approved the alleged results.

In short, it's not just a blanket popularity argument.  It's a lot more than that.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
but we are having to trust unsubstantiated claims (0.00 / 0)
of someone being popular or not.  I guess, having seen what went down in Venezuela the issue is that I am untrusting of the American media!

It looks to me like people are trying to provoke an intervention in Iran, particularly posters like seabrook and America has no moral authority when it comes to honest elections since we have provoked coups there ourselves.


[ Parent ]
the american M$M has actually been pretty even-handed (i.e. (4.00 / 1)
pro-ahmadinejad), or at least hasn't been covering the election much over the weekend.  it is the blogosphere that has actually been pushing the news of the coup and protests.  

this is not venezuela.  the US is not conspiring with rightist factions in the military to overthrow a popularly elected figure with way more left-wing credentials than ahmadinejad has.  ahmadinejad is himself aligned with the factions in the military that are most comparable to those with which the US conspired.  

oh yes, i've been calling for the US to intervene.  all over the place, in so many comments.  it should be no trouble for you to find a quote to back up that smear...

 


[ Parent ]
Why did 60% of Americans vote for Nixon in 1972? (4.00 / 1)
Doesn't make no sense to me that McGovern lost! No reasonable person would have voted for tricky Dick and his Watergate gang, right? Sure must be evidence that the election was stolen!

Sry, I'm in a sarcastic mood, but just want to point out that such circumstantial evidence can be very misleading if you don't know the whole picture. And we here in the west simply don't know everything about the mood in Iran, because the informations barriers prevent this. But in this heated atmosphere, where a bloodbath could be just around the next corner, we should be very careful in chosing sides or even advocating civil unrest. After all, neither Mousavi, nor his ally Rafsandinejad are really good guys. Those crooks are creatures of the Islamic revolution of the 80s. They have a lot of corpses in the cellar, too, and it may very well be that they are guilty of some manipulations of their own. Idols for democracy, liberalism and human rights, they are not.


[ Parent ]
"many have observed." (4.00 / 1)
it is interesting that you are providing no sources for these claims, while paul and i have pointed to a number of credible commentators on iran, who argue that the left is aligned with the reformists in this struggle.    

you are throwing around the term 'neoliberalism' quite loosely here.  is ahmadinejad not also pursuing neoliberalism, in the sense that iran is not attempting to establish a national, planned economy walled off from the neoliberal global economic order?  i think we need to be a lot more nuanced in our discussions of economic questions.  for instance, while mousavi was critical of inflation, he was also calling for investments that would spur job creation, and that would provide more economic opportunities for women.  these are different proposals than: 'privatize and deregulate!'  

 


[ Parent ]
read all the negative comments to (4.00 / 2)
juan cole's latest.

Robert Fisk is in Tehran this from his latest missive:
"An interval here for lunch with a true and faithful friend of the Islamic Republic, a man I have known for many years who has risked his life and been imprisoned for Iran and who has never lied to me. We dined in an all-Iranian-food restaurant, along with his wife. He has often criticised the regime. A man unafraid. But I must repeat what he said. "The election figures are correct, Robert. Whatever you saw in Tehran, in the cities and in thousands of towns outside, they voted overwhelmingly for Ahmadinejad. Tabriz voted 80 per cent for Ahmadinejad. It was he who opened university courses there for the Azeri people to learn and win degrees in Azeri. In Mashad, the second city of Iran, there was a huge majority for Ahmadinejad after the imam of the great mosque attacked Rafsanjani of the Expediency Council who had started to ally himself with Mousavi. They knew what that meant: they had to vote for Ahmadinejad."

My guest and I drank dookh, the cool Iranian drinking yoghurt so popular here. The streets of Tehran were a thousand miles away. "You know why so many poorer women voted for Ahmadinejad? There are three million of them who make carpets in their homes. They had no insurance. When Ahmadinejad realised this, he immediately brought in a law to give them full insurance. Ahmadinejad's supporters were very shrewd. They got the people out in huge numbers to vote - and then presented this into their vote for Ahmadinejad."
http://www.independent.co.uk/o...

These comments really shoot down Prof Cole's conpiracy theory.

One poll shows Amadinijad leading.

http://www.bi-me.com/main.php?...

there are numerous objections in the threads at cole's website, and many links.


[ Parent ]
i saw fisk's post yesterday. it does give one pause. (0.00 / 0)
though the arguments made by his friend don't seem entirely convincing to me.  how does this person know what the rough percentages of support were in these regions?  based on a speech by an imam?  why would this speech be convincing to people where Khomeini's veiled support for Ahmadinejad wouldn't (which is implied by the source's story)?        

also, this doesn't actually answer all of cole's points, including the point about karoubi's apparent lack of support.  and, most importantly, the irregularities with respect to the reporting of the results.  

 


[ Parent ]
I Think You've Misread What TSlavin Was Trying To Say (4.00 / 1)
Although I share your sentiment, I think he simply meant once a political equilibrium has been established.  Right now, we've got anything but that.  The people vote one way, the power structure says "No way!"  

The question then is how hard the people will push to get what they want.  We can only hope they've got more determination than we seem to at this point.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
The HuffPost blog is great (0.00 / 0)
everyone should check that out...

You are getting it. (4.00 / 1)
Obama, Clinton, and Biden don't.

They are stuck in their mindset of

1) Ahmadinejad is going to 'win'.

2)We will be 'realists' and work with him.

3)At least there was a 'debate'".

Obama is going to sit down with these fascist thugs?

Is the Left prepared for Obama to capitulate on health care saying "at least we had a debate"?

We want material change. Not debate.


. (4.00 / 1)
Were he courageous enough to speak candidly of how we have gone astray in the past, he would open an enormous space for honesty, repentance, and renewed trust.

That's bullshit. Action trumps rhetoric any day of the week. Our position with regard to having to dance around fueling Iranian propaganda about foreign influence doesn't change with apology. That dynamic is already there. And no amount of sorries washes away that particular sin. We're sorry but we still have sanctions against you? We're sorry but we still want to tell you what to do with your nukes? We're sorry but I hope you don't mind that we invaded the two countries next to you? We're sorry but fuck having a US embassy in Iran?

The best thing we can do is recognize this and not engage in this naive idea that everything revolves around what we say. Whether it's bluster OR apology.


on blind men & elephants -- and Theocratic regimes and their "elections" -- & LSDs (0.00 / 0)
you can't view Iran's very specific history (and our part in it both then and now) thru a lens of liberal social democracy, and lay down absolute markers like their "election"  (as if the country you're talking about was actually holding a free and fair election -- something we don't even do).

your filter is not applicable and actually ignores the very basic issues and rights you say you're holding up -- like the structure of their specific govt and the powerlessness of voting, and of any President there to change the way they treat rights, freedoms, and morals.

And even if you do look at it thru your filter -- Mousavi is NOT A REFORMER. He has no history of reforming anything -- in fact it's the exact opposite. He's been part of the most corrupt govt in their post-Shah history. He's NEVER EVER EVER tried to get more freedoms or rights or liberties for Iranians. And even in this election, he ran AGAINST using the govt to provide for all instead of just the wealthy.

Liberal Social Democracies are not only or even primarily judged by how elections are run. It's about how government and power and resources are used for the benefit, rights, and protections of ALL of society.

The Revolution there, for instance, was wildly popular among the vast majority of Iranians -- and something like a revolution was absolutely necessary bec of their situation -- there was no LSD action or reform that would have changed their situation. The "Democratic" methods were not applicable -- just as the structure of their govt now, and the way power is bestowed and used prevents them from being used by citizens in their "elections" now.

You're pretending that they are a democracy. That holding an election was like how democracies hold elections. You're presuming that the options available in LSDs (voting, "reform", voters granting power to responsive and accountable politicians, etc) are available and effective there like they are in LSDs.

They are not.

Different and specific situations require different and specific actions by citizens/subjects. Everything is not a hammer and nail, nor are those nails and hammers like nails and hammers we've seen in other countries.

Iranians voting in these elections are not denying the validity of their government -- they are ENDORSING and ENABLING it to continue with their participation, in fact. (Unlike the last elections, when they refused to participate in the charade.)

"Reforms" can't come from voting there -- most especially liberal and social reforms that use govt to benefit ALL -- and most especially from bestowing power on those who never have lifted a finger to use the power they had before for actual reforms, rights, or freedoms.
'
You don't change theocracies by voting in their "elections". They are not a democracy. The opposition voters there are not liberals or progressives or just like us -- nor are they like the Eastern Europeans who overturned their governments.

Whether the majority of Iranians even want to live in a LSD or not is not at all an answered question either -- and it's not helpful -- for them or us -- to presume it is automatially instead of listening to ALL of them instead of just the ones with money and western connections and who speak English.

Most evidence shows that they don't want to, in fact. And most evidence also shows that the majority of the population does not support their wealthy elite, who have always enriched themselves no matter what kind of govt they have -- Ruler, Shah, Ayatollah, or whatever.


1 more thing -- "reform" &/or change of system thru Mousavi = Rafsanjani, not democracy (0.00 / 0)
not democracy of any kind, in fact. That may be just fine with Mousavi voters.

FP -- http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/...

Iran: What Now? -- Trita Parsi  --

... Clearly, the anti-Ahmadinejad camp has been taken by surprise and is scrambling for a plan. Increasingly, given their failure to get Khamenei to intervene, their only option seems to be to directly challenge -- or threaten to challenge -- the supreme leader.

Here's where the powerful chairman of the Assembly of Experts, Mousavi supporter Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani, comes in. Only this assembly has the formal authority to call for Khamenei's dismissal, and it is now widely assumed that Rafsanjani is quietly assessing whether he has the votes to do so or not.

It may be that the first steps toward challenging Khamenei have already been taken. After all, Mousavi went over the supreme leader's head with an open letter to the clergy in Qom. Rafsanjani clearly failed to win Khamenei's support in a reported meeting between the two men Friday, but the influential Ali Akbar Mohtashamipour, who heads the vote-monitoring committee for Mousavi and fellow candidate Mehdi Karroubi, has officially requested that the Guardian Council cancel the election and schedule a new vote with proper monitoring. ...



[ Parent ]
You Could Have Made A DAMNED Good Case For The Confederacy Back in 1861! (0.00 / 0)
Nice rant!

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
you make my point -- "reform" wouldn't have helped slaves or have ended slavery (0.00 / 0)
-- and material conditions -- esp basic needs and services -- are not less important than "post-materialist" ones -- esp when there is clear and widespread need for them --

as we still have here, too.


[ Parent ]
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