Gloves Come Off In Iran--Police w/ Tear Gas, Water Cannons Clash w/ Protesters

by: Paul Rosenberg

Sat Jun 20, 2009 at 12:00


Below: What Obama gets and doesn't get about what a progressive foreign policy means.

Events in Iran have taken a sharp turn towards confrontation, as the regime's attempt to shut down all demonstrations with a show of armed force met fierce resistance.

Armed police forces are being used to prevent the formation of large-scale demonstrations--two were scheduled for today--but thousands of demonstrators have repeatedly clashed with police.

From Nico Pitney's HuffPo Live Blog:

10:22 AM ET -- The demonstrators' dilemma. From an Iranian via reader Samira: "All streets are full of basiji and police. they have blocked all the streets. You can not go south of Felestin street. So if one stops to ponder what to do next, they attack and beat!"

....

10:15 AM ET -- AP: Dozens of protesters "seriously beaten." "The witnesses told The Associated Press that between 50 and 60 protesters were seriously beaten by police and pro-government militia and taken to Imam Khomeini hospital in central Tehran. People could be seen dragging away comrades bloodied by baton strikes. Helicopters hovered over central Tehran. Ambulance sirens echoed through the streets and black smoke rose over the city. Tehran University was cordoned off by police and militia while students inside the university chanted 'death to the dictator,' witnesses said."

10:11 AM ET -- AFP: Unrest at Tehran University. "One to two thousand protestors have gathered in front of Tehran University, which is close to the site of a mass rally planned on Saturday, a witness told AFP."

10:01 AM ET -- AP reports "fierce clashes."

    Eyewitnesses described fierce clashes near Revolution Square in central Tehran after some 3,000 protesters chanted "Death to the dictator!" and "Death to dictatorship!" Police responded with tear gas and water cannons, the witnesses said. [...]

    English-language state TV said a blast at the Tehran shrine of Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini had killed one persona and wounded two but the report could not be independently confirmed due to government restrictions on independent reporting. [...]

    Web sites run by supporters of opposition leader Mir Hossein Mousavi said he planned to post a message, but there was no statement by the time of the planned street protests at 4 p.m. (7:30 a.m. EDT, 1130 GMT).

There are also reports of at least two alleged acts of violence by protesters, though such claims are highly suspicious, to say the least....

Paul Rosenberg :: Gloves Come Off In Iran--Police w/ Tear Gas, Water Cannons Clash w/ Protesters
First, the blast at the Khomeini Shrine:

9:40 AM ET -- State media claims 2 injured at Khomeini shrine explosion.

NBC's Ann Curry tweets: "Iran state tv claims explosion at tomb of revered Ayatollah Khomeini. Would incite anger against protesters. Is it true? ... Remember Iran govt is the only source of this explosion report. NO independent confirmation and misinformation is dangerous."

A reader, speculating that the government set the bomb, writes, "The mullahs did something similar in August 1978 in Iran - they set a cinema in Abadan ablaze and blamed the Shah. That was the turning point of that revolution as the people bagan to see the Shah as ruthless."

....

9:24 AM ET -- CNN: "Blast" at mausoleum. CNN, citing state-run media, is reporting a "blast" at a mausoleum.

Update: CNN reporting that the explosion was at the Imam Khomeini Mausoleum "about 20 minutes outside of the city."

And, more recently:

10:19 AM ET -- Timing of reported blast. Many are reporting a message on Twitter claiming that the alleged suicide bombing at a shrine in southern Tehran was reported by state media before it actually occurred. There is no confirmed evidence of this. I'll update if I see any.

....

10:04 AM ET -- Shrine bombing attributed to suicide bomber. "More on that explosion at the shrine: 'A suicide bomber was killed at the northern wing of Imam Khomeini's shrine. Two people were injured,' Fars news agency said, according to Reuters. Khamenei talked about the threat of terrorism in his speech yesterday. 'Street demonstrations are a target for terrorist plots. Who would be responsible if something happened?' he said."

And a second incident:

10:40 AM ET -- Ahmadinejad building set on fire. Reuters, via reader Larry:

    "Supporters of Iran's defeated presidential candidate Mirhossein Mousavi on Saturday set on fire a building in southern Tehran used by backers of President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, a witness said. The witness also said police shot into the air to disperse rival supporters in Tehran's south Karegar street."

Had this happened a week ago, this would probably be the end of it.  But with days on end of mass demonstrations bringing out hundreds of thousands, if not a million or more protesters, there is not just an enormous mass movement for change, there is also a tremendous loss of legitimacy for the regime--a loss of the legitimacy that today's use of force may very well only deepen and accelerate.

Indeed, leading up to today, one of the emergent themes has been widening of cracks in the regime and its perceived legitimacy.  For example:

7:41 PM ET -- Cracks in the foundation. The well regarded analyst Anthony Cordesman of the Center for Strategic and International Studies offers his view on Iran's ruling conservatives, who he argues are "more divided than ever."

    At the same time, while the Supreme Leader did firmly back Ahmadinejad and the legitimacy of the election in his Friday prayer, and he cannot put this genie back in the bottle. Khamenei has always had uncertain credentials as a religious scholar and he now has uncertain credibility as a leader. Everyone in Iran, the Middle East, and the world now has reason to question the legitimacy of every element of Iran's leadership and the Iranian revolution. The Iranian leadership now has to realize that it is more divided than was ever apparent before and that Iran's people and the world know it. It has to see just how much anger there is at the Mullah's level of social repression and the failures in the Iranian economy. The leadership can only quickly ease the social repression side of this equation. It would take years of effort to make a major difference in economic development. As a result, even apparent success by the current leadership will to some extent be lasting failure. This may not have a Berlin Wall kind of ending, but Iran is not China. The lasting impact is much more likely to be similar to the decades long impact of the repression of the uprisings in Hungary and Czechoslovakia.

    It also is impossible to rule out some form of Mousavi victory, both now and over the months to come. Whatever happens, if Ahmadinejad stays without a truly legitimate election, the result will fester, not go away. Every embarrassing new piece of excessive rhetoric, every new threat to Iran's neighbors, every new problem in the economy, and every new act of social repression will be a reminder of the fact that Iran's leadership has questionable legitimacy at best.

As today's scattered events filter in and people try to make sense of it, it also makes sense to reflect on America's response.  

First of all, I can't help but note this rare example, proving that Peegy Noonan is actually capable of the sort of mature behavior she is so often falsely associated with:

12:24 PM ET -- Peggy Noonan bashes Republicans' Iran rhetoric. A pretty surprising column:

    America so often gets Iran wrong. We didn't know when the shah was going to fall, didn't foresee the massive wave that would topple him, didn't know the 1979 revolution would move violently against American citizens, didn't know how to handle the hostage-taking. Last week we didn't know a mass rebellion was coming, and this week we don't know who will emerge the full or partial victor. So modesty and humility seem appropriate stances from which to observe and comment. ...

    John McCain and others went quite crazy insisting President Obama declare whose side America was on, as if the world doesn't know whose side America is on. "In the cause of freedom, America cannot be neutral," said Rep. Mike Pence. Who says it's neutral? This was Aggressive Political Solipsism at work: Always exploit events to show you love freedom more than the other guy, always make someone else's delicate drama your excuse for a thumping curtain speech.

Nost substantively, however, I think, is the question of how deeply grounded is Obama's good sense.  Not being warmongerish is certainly a good start.  Knowing that overt expressions of outright support would only serve to undermine the Iranian people's demands is good common sense--something utterly lacking in the GOP.  But as has happened before with Obama, there's a telling detail in how he expresses himself that betrays a lack of the sort of deep progressive framing that we would so desperately want to see coming from him:

11:56 AM ET -- Are U.S. officials being too quiet? I wanted to reexamine this question in light of some new comments today. First, from Spencer Ackerman:

    Hadi Ghaemi of the International Campaign for Human Rights in Iran said he has a hard time taking a strong stance one way or the other about the Berman-Pence Iran resolution currently being debated on the House floor. But it's wading awfully close into a "political act" for his taste "The text is not objectionable," Ghaemi told me. "But it will be seen as a political act" by the Iranian regime.

Second, via Andrew, comments by Amir Fakhravar, who has been "jailed and tortured in Iran for advocating democracy and speaking out against the Iranian government" and remains in touch with reformers:

    "Right now, (Obama) could say, 'America stands for freedom and democracy, and as a United States president, I want to stand behind all of the freedom fighters in the world that are fighting peacefully to have democracy and freedom,'" Fakhravar said. "That's the American Dream. I don't know why he didn't say that. He said, 'this is none of our business.'"

The contrary argument, of course, is that if Obama or Congress speak out more aggressively, it will endanger the reformists in Iran and give ammunition to Khamenei and his allies.

Khamenei's speech today pushed me to reexamine this line of thinking. He didn't need an incendiary line from Obama to stir up anti-U.S. sentiments -- he just made one up. "It was said on behalf of the U.S. President that he was waiting for a day that people came out to streets," he claimed.

This analysis is flawed, I think, since the same could be said about US GOP hardliners--they, too, lie like dogs about Obama, but there's still an enormous advantage that flows from his judiciousness.  In Iran, they can say whatever they want, but they don't have the videotape of Obama saying stuff like John McCain does, and that's a very, very good thing.

My problem is something else entirely.  It's Obama's statement that 'this is none of our business' -- which he did, indeed say.  And this clashes fundamentally with what George Lakoff argued before 9/11, in a paper I've discussed on several occasions, "The Mind and The World: Changing the Very Idea of American Foreign Policy" (PDF).  As I wrote two weeks in "Why Not A Progressive Foreign Policy? Part 2: The Whole Enchilada":

In the paper, Lakoff starts off by observing that since the end of the Cold War, a broad range of international issues have emerged that don't don't fit into the traditional "foreign policy" framework, and could appear to be nothing more than a laundry list of unrelated issues--things like global warming, women's rights, global public health, etc.  However, he goes on to argue that there is a very natural framework that encompases them all: the framework of moral norms.  These are all issues that involve how a community of nations ought to conduct itself.  Furthermore, Lakoff argues, the moral norms framework produces a better global neighborhood or environment than the traditional self-interest framework that foreign policy has traditionally used, the same way that an ordinary neighborhood is a better place to live when the people there treat each other according to a shared set of norms, rather than only looking out for their own self-interest.

The idea of operating within a framework of moral norms was present throughout Obama's Cairo speech, and indeed has long been a part of America's foreign policy outlook, though it has rarely been clearly articulated as such.  Individual norms have been invoked often enough, but all too often there's been an ulterior motive, which only serves to build suspicion. But when a wide range of normative statements are made, as Obama did in his Cairo speech, there is a clear implication that something very different is afoot.  Whether or not that comes to pass depends on many different things, not the least of which is developing a more broadly shared understanding of just what that means.

The "moral norms" framework stands in opposition to the "national interests" framework, and the very of what's "our business" and what's "none of our business" is central to the "national interests" framework.  So when Obama says that what's happening in Iran is "none of our business" he is betraying the very essence of what he said in Cairo--or at least what he appeared to be saying.

And that is what I have a problem with.

What should he have said?  That's a lot trickier question to try to answer.  But I can give an example that can point us in the right direction.  He could have said something like this:

    "What's happening in Iran right now is deeply troubling to us as Americans, because we deeply believe in the values our country was founded on, and we do not believe that those values are ours alone. When we see the people of Iran marching in the street for their rights to be ruled as a democracy under the rule of law, not the rule of men, we see living proof that our values are their values as well, and we are compelled to recognize our shared values.

    "Yet, we also know that self-determination is also a shared value, and for that reason we cannot take actions that can be seen as violating the Iranian people's right to self-determination. We have made that mistake in the past, and both America and the Iranian people have paid dearly for those past mistakes. This is why we must limit ourselves in what we say and do--we must do so in order to truly support the Iranian people today."

This is not necessarily the ideal thing Obama could say.  But it does clearly get us out of the "self-interest" framework and place us squarely in the "moral norms" framework, which is where we need to be operating from 24/7.  If you're a progressive, that's what it means to be an American.


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The bind (4.00 / 3)
Obama's strategic problem, not mentioned, is that whatever he says about the will of the people in Iran will be eagerly heard by the people of Egypt.  Damn that internet.

Full Court Press!  http://www.openleft.com/showDi...

Excellent points (4.00 / 3)
I think I've tended to frame things in the 'none of our business' manner that Obama has done myself, a better way of putting it hadn't really occurred to me and I think you've done it.

From my perspective, the primary hope is that we don't interfere. That means the government not making threats on their sovereignty, not coming out as a backer or opponent of any of the candidates.

In the dominant 'realist' model of foreign policy, the main things there are to readily say about it is that it's none of our business and it was a disaster last time. But to hold the right of self-determination as a positive value that should define our interactions with them, that's a much stronger argument.

Even democracy, as a value, doesn't quite get there. If that were the sole consideration, then we're having an argument about whether democracy can be imposed, whether we really value it if we won't 'do something' about it, etc. Self-determination encompasses democracy, but it's a larger concept. It values democracy, but also free will, the right to dissent and the freedom to make mistakes.

Anyway, good job, man.


Thanks! (4.00 / 1)
IMHO, we need to realize that the realist model was "realist" with respect to the time and place that it was born out of, which was modern Europe in the period of time surrounding the Treaty of Westphalia (1648).

Not being scrunched together check by jowl with an unruly crowd of jostling neighbors, the US has never really been in the same sort of geopolitical context.  Most of the time, we've been protected by two large oceans that make us virtually invulnerable.  Yet, we act out of this inherited conceptual framework that doesn't really suit us at all, and then do our darned to make the world look like the philosophy fits.  The Cold War was a pretty good mock up to make it seem reasonable.  The "Global War On Terror"?  Not so much.

We have the breathing room to be much more civil, and much less survival-threatened in our thinking, and thanks to our (largely unwitting) influence, so, too, do most of the world' leading powers.  So it's well past time that we woke up and changed our philosophy of international relation so that it realistically reflects the state of the world today.


"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Have we acted or claimed to act in a realist framework historically? (0.00 / 0)
Aside from the pretensions of Teddy Roosevelt and Henry Kissinger, I don't think so.

We've seen ourselves as more exceptionalist than realist, "A City upon a Hill," as you point out, isolated from crowded, conflictual international statecraft.  We lead - so we've asserted again, and again - by virtue of our unique ability to realize and enact liberal freedoms, either by example at a distance, or direct intervention since 1898.  

Either way, our foreign policy has failed to recognize the legitimacy of other states to exist as a precondition of engagement, a central feature of realist ideology.  


[ Parent ]
Yes, And No (4.00 / 1)
Most of our relations you refer to involve Third World nations, and the European realist framework was never applied to them in the first place.

What's more, our invocation of Wilsonian concerns for "freedom" and "democracy" are routinely guided by realist considerations.  As was said many times in 1990/91, we never would have cared about Iraq invading Quwait if the principle exports involved had been broccoli.

That's not to say we don't need to address our Wilsonian heritage.  It's just that it doesn't really constitute an alternative framework.  If one takes elements of it, and reconfigures them so that they're not just serving as window dressing for rapacious realism, then we might really have something.  And that's precisely what Lakoff is suggesting.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I guess my disagreement (0.00 / 0)
is what we mean when we say "realism."

I believe realism specifically denotes a system of ideas codified in the 17th and 18th centuries by Vattel and others.  It holds the legitimacy of states to be foundational to foreign policy, making the liquidation of states is illegitimate and, therefore, outside the paradigm.

The central concern with freedom and democracy that defines our foreign policy antedates Wilsonianism by at least a century, as exemplified by the arguments for Jefferson's Embargo and westward expansion, both massive foreign policy undertakings.  

Of course we wouldn't have cared about Iraq and Kuwait without oil, but that there are specific material concerns relevant to an action does not in itself make it realist.  The public justifications for the decisions in that war were wildly Wilsonian, whatever the motives. If it's our goal to align rhetoric with policy, calling such actions realist seems counterproductive.

We let our leaders off the hook when we permit them to describe what they do as "realism" if for no other reason than it isn't.  While certain individuals and organizations have a tremendous material stake in "regime change" and "pre-emtive war," that does not make what they do "realist".    


[ Parent ]
Narrative Mash-Ups (0.00 / 0)
You make good points.  The problem we're running up against is that the terms we're discussing aren't used in a consistent manner.  Indeed, the inconsistency of their usage is central to the workings of state power in the field of foreign relations.

You're taking one tack in questioning them, while I'm taking a slightly different one, but the difference in how we chose to use the terminology is much greater than difference in our underlying points of view.

It's a bit like Cartesian vs. polar coordinates.  Each carries with it specific advantages that the other lacks.  So which to use is primarily a choice that depends on what you're trying to do.  Not a difference in the reality you're describing.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I should mention that ... (0.00 / 0)
Booman posted that at his place .. which is where I got it

[ Parent ]
Nico Pitney said that multiple videos of that scene were removed (4.00 / 1)
from You Tube, it's worth noting, even though it was broadcast on CNN earlier today.

[ Parent ]
Very nice job here (4.00 / 3)
I don't think Obama thinks what's happening in Iran is "none of our business" in the literal sense.  The last eight years have placed the US in quite a bind as to how to make our legitimate concerns felt about international issues.  Obama worries correctly that calling the events in Iran "our business" will become effective propaganda for the Ayatollah.  

But I do get the larger, more salient, long-term strategic point that you and Lakoff make. We need to conceive of a way of talking about IR in terms of moral norms that relate to concrete issues in a more comprehensive way without proffering mere jingoistic nonsense.  Good read.  


Oh, I Agree Completely (4.00 / 1)
And so would Lakoff.  One of his key points is that progressives lake the proper frame to articulate what their values really are.  He does a brilliant analysis of the 2000 foreign policy presidential debate, and how Bush actually won the debate because Gore lacked the proper conceptual framework to talk about working to support states in need.  "Nation-building" was problematic formulation that was key in that context.  We really can't build another nation.  But we can assist others in their own nation-building.  Yet, talking about it, and doing it effectively depend on having a much clearer, much broader sense of what our motivating values are, how they mesh together, and therefore what sorts of policies they lead to.

Obama faces very same difficulties here.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Well said (0.00 / 0)
The fight against fascism is only in its early stages.

this afternoon's statement (closer to Paul's) (4.00 / 3)
The Iranian government must understand that the world is watching. We mourn each and every innocent life that is lost. We call on the Iranian government to stop all violent and unjust actions against its own people. The universal rights to assembly and free speech must be respected, and the United States stands with all who seek to exercise those rights.

As I said in Cairo, suppressing ideas never succeeds in making them go away. The Iranian people will ultimately judge the actions of their own government. If the Iranian government seeks the respect of the international community, it must respect the dignity of its own people and govern through consent, not coercion.

Martin Luther King once said - "The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice." I believe that. The international community believes that. And right now, we are bearing witness to the Iranian peoples' belief in that truth, and we will continue to bear witness.

President's June 20 Statement on Iran.

New Jersey politics at Blue Jersey.


Yes (0.00 / 0)
This is more in line with what I was saying.  It also underscores the wisdom of being more circumspect earlier.

This is clearly not just better rhetoric, expressing better values, it's also a more full-throated response.  Had he spoken in a more hardline tone earlier, he would have had no way to step up his rhetoric without falling into the trap of becoming the foreign devil scapegoat.

Thus, in this progression I think we see elements both of Obama's considerable strengths, as well as some of his weaknesses.  I have a post coming up in about an hour that explores this theme in greater depth, not specifically related to Iran, but certainly applicable.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
. (0.00 / 0)
A) Almost no matter what happens we will engage the administration that emerges.

B) We aren't going to back up our rhetoric with any punishment.

Moral norm... what the fuck dude. Base policy on real constraints, not idealism.


Moral Norms ARE Real Constraints (0.00 / 0)
The vast majority of people obey laws because they are laws, not because of fear of getting caught.  This is elementary.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
. (0.00 / 0)
Obey what fucking laws? There is no such thing as an unenforced law. What is the punishment if Iran doesn't obey these "laws?"

Are we going to not talk to them? That doesn't make sense because we have interests in the region that shouldn't preclude diplomacy. Are we going to sanction them? Militarily intervene?

THIS is elementary. How do we treat countries that violate the moral norms we set?

Like i said before, incomplete and contradictory frameworks.


[ Parent ]
. (0.00 / 0)
I mean really, they are going to follow laws just because they are laws? That's the dumbest shit you've written in at least 24 hours.

What's next, when we cut a deal with Iran about their nuke program you're going to pretend that our dealings don't impact the moral norm we were trying to set?


[ Parent ]
You're Too Dumb To Think Up Subject Lines (0.00 / 0)
It's foolish to waste time trying to explain things to you.

Responding to your first comment served the purpose of elucidating a point that other readers might be curious about.  That's why I answered it.  But your patented combo of stupidity and hostility means there's zero point in responding further.

(Yes, this comment, too, is for the benefit of others who may read it.)


"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
. (0.00 / 0)
Just admit you don't know what you're talking about and call it a day.

Moral norms... Guilttripping the world into a better place. Genius idea.


[ Parent ]
Just Because You're A Sociopathic Loser (0.00 / 0)
Doesn't mean that most people are.

Most people actually care what other people think.

Particularly when they engage with one another in the process of coming to public judgment.

This is most true of individuals who are closely connected with one another.  But the existence of long-standing international relations shows that it's also true of international relations as well.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
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