Splitting Part II - pure ideology vs. "big tent" strategy

by: Christian_Dem_NY

Tue Jun 30, 2009 at 09:04


     A previous post of mine (Splitting equals losing...) now has over 100 replies.
    The good news is that I found topics that people feel passionately about (how to advance progressive ideology, and how [or even whether] to recapture the Democratic party from the hands of corporate interests). The bad news is that some of the responses to my post involved a fight between the Pro-Naders and the Anti-Naders. This fight is like a red-hot coal (lots of heat, and not much light).
   The point of my post was not to point fingers at the past, it was to point the way towards victory in the future.
   On the topic of Nader, both sides seem to agree upon two facts. One is that there were a dozen factors that helped Bush steal the election (purging Black voters, confusing butterfly ballots, Katherine Harris, a bizarrely biased 5-4 "no precedent" Supreme Court decision... and of course Gore's own lackluster campaign). The second fact is that, if we could change history, holding all else constant and ONLY removing Nader from the race, the result would have been: President Al Gore. (And while Gore is only progressive on the environment, I think we can all agree that Gore would have been better than Bush.)
   One commentor actually accused other commentors of "not caring" about all those that died during the Iraq war. I will not accuse FeralCat, Dr. Anonymous and others of "not caring". If they did not care, they would not spend their time posting here.
   What I do want to do is help us all agree upon effective strategy for the future. And to achieve that, I have a few suggestions.
   One is that we should all try to spread the "fusion voting" model to every state. We have that model in New York, and when I vote, I look for candidates that are on both the Working Families ballot, and the Democratic ballot (and I then pull the lever for WF).
   A second thing that I would suggest is that splitting is great (when the split is among the Right). In 2008, I signed petitions in favor of including Ron Paul and Bob Barr in the debates. When the Right fights itself, the Left wins. Most of our time and money should be spend in making the Left stronger, but whenever we can help the Right defeat itself, we should do so.
   A third good idea that I have heard here is that support for progressive third parties should focus on congress first, before attempting to influence the presidential election. That idea has a lot of merit.
   A fourth idea is that progressives should support third party candidates in non-competitive states only. In 2000, I had not yet moved from Texas to NY. I knew that Bush would win Texas, and I liked some of what I heard Nader saying. (In the end, I chose to vote for Gore, to give him a larger mandate.) But maybe in 2012, if the race is between Obama/Biden and Huckabee/Palin, Kucinich will run as an independent or as a Green. If that happens, then progressives can make a deal: for every Kucinich supporter in a competitive state (like Virginia) that votes for Obama, an Obama supporter in a safe state (like NY) will vote for Kucinich. That way, Kucinich gets the same number of net votes, but he does not flip a competitive state to the Republicans.
   Finally, I want to address another kind of splitting. Among all of us here at Open Left, who care passionately about progressive causes, let's feel free to disagree, but let's avoid name-calling and personal attacks. If we agree upon policy goals (universal health care, green energy, a living wage, less war abroad, and so on), then when we quibble over tactics, let us not forget that the REAL enemy is guys like Rush Limbaugh and Grover Norquist. A dissenting fellow progressive is, at worst, a misguided friend.
Christian_Dem_NY :: Splitting Part II - pure ideology vs. "big tent" strategy

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No, we still would have had dictator Bush without Nader. (0.00 / 0)
This is fact.  While you and others cry foul over votes that would not have been cast for Al Gore regardless, and dismiss or ignore the indisputable fact that one fifth to one quarter of a million registered Democrats consciously cast ballots for the shrub, the ability of Democrats to convince voters based on the merits of their actions in power diminishes by the day.

Stop blaming Ralph Nader for Bush and Cheney.  They bear absolutely no responsibility for eight years of horror, destruction, and mass death.  Congressional Democrats, on the other hand, do - as do the Democrats who voted for Republicans and right-wing Democrats.  No wonder you can't convince anyone to stick with the party; you blame us for your failures and capitulations, then turn around and tell us we've no alternative but to vote for you when we know the opposite is true.  e are done being lied to, threatened, dismissed, marginalized, and ignored.  Democrats do not own non-Republican votes, and if they want ours they have to earn them.  This is not a difficult concept to understand.

Having said all that, I would like to address a couple of the suggestions you make and point out why they won't work.

1.) Fusion Voting

This idea has merit, but as is pointed out on the Wikipedia web site, most states have placed bans on it via legislation.  In order to practice fusion voting, you must first work to remove the bans.  Even if you succeed in that, you have to convince disparate independent political parties to compromise their principles by throwing their support behind Democratic candidates who, more often than not, do not and will not represent them once in office.  Without the threat of electoral defeat as a consequence of abandoning progressive principles, no politician will be swayed to come around to them since he or she knows that support is all but guaranteed because of the "no other alternative" gimmick so successfully used to scare people out of voting third party.

Electoral fusion was once widespread in the United States. In the late 19th century, however, as minor political parties such as the People's Party became increasingly successful in using fusion, state legislatures enacted bans against it. One Republican Minnesota state legislator was clear about what his party was trying to do: "We don't propose to allow the Democrats to make allies of the Populists, Prohibitionists, or any other party, and get up combination tickets against us. We can whip them single-handed, but don't intend to fight all creation." (Spoiling for a Fight, 227-228). The creation of the Minnesota Democratic-Farmer-Labor Party made this particular tactical position obsolete. By 1907 the practice had been banned in 18 states; today, fusion as conventionally practiced remains legal in only seven states, namely:

   * Connecticut
   * Delaware
   * Idaho
   * Mississippi
   * New York
   * South Carolina
   * Vermont

This is not to say it can't be done, but it takes time and inclination that simply do not exist.  Most of the problems we face, such as Global Warming, aren't waiting for the several decades it'll take for fusion voting to make a comeback, nor will you convince enough independent voters to abandon or compromise their principles on a political party that has shown no inclination to represent them in the past few decades and instead treats them like dirt.

2.) "Strategic" Campaigning

This method proved to be an utter disaster in 2004, for not only did it not make a dent in the Democratic Party platform that year, it weakened independent political parties even more.  We all know how that election turned out: stolen, with craven capitulation by an utterly weak Democratic candidate who didn't even try to win much less fight for his victory.  As incompetent as Gore's campaign was in 2000, he at least had the stones to defend his victory in court.

You do make some good points, particularly in advising the winning of Congressional seats (which follows the building of independent parties at the local and state levels).  This is a good strategy to pursue, as it tips the scales of political power in the legislature and forces otherwise mediocre presidents to do better and prevents bad presidents from doing more harm than they would be able to do with pliant Congresses.

If you want my advice, I suggest you cease with the condescending attitude toward those with whom you disagree.  No, we don't all have the same opinions on everything, and some (such as NR and Gray) would rather lie, threaten, bully, and name-call than acknowledge unpleasant truths.  Not every opinion is valid.  Not every opinion is honest.  We on the left have to clean out the proverbial house, and it's not a pleasant task.



constructive criticism? (4.00 / 1)
1) I want to keep a positive and constructive tone here. You suggested that I should "cease with the condescending attitude toward those with whom you disagree." I did not mean to seem condescending, and no one but you has accused me of that. If you can point out one or more examples of a condescending tone from me, I will see if I can improve on that.
2) You said that NR and Gray "lie, threaten, bully, and name-call". Lying, threatening, bullying, and name-calling do create a negative tone... but then, so does accusing another of lying, threatening, bullying, or name-calling. Let's all try to avoid doing those things.
3) As an example of alleged lying, please consider the effect of Nader in 2000. I have really tried to accept the pro-Nader viewpoint. I have agreed that a long list of factors could have tipped things the other way, and given us a President Gore. But do you really believe that if Nader would not have been in the race, a majority of Nader voters would have voted for Bush? None of the statistics I have seen posted here (either pro-Nader or anti-Nader) have made me think that a race without Nader would have still led to President Bush. You may disagree with my belief about 2000, but calling my belief a "lie" seems inaccurate and impolite. I really, really do not want to keep re-hashing the Nader-Bush-Gore question, but if we cannot agree upon a few basic facts, it is hard to have a real conversation.
4) I offered 4 suggestions for strategy (fusion voting, splitting the Right, developing 3rd parties in congress first, and swapping 3rd party votes to non-competitive states). You said that "'Strategic' Campaigning" failed in 2004, but I am not sure which of my 4 strategies you are referring to.
5) I could point out that Bush vetoed an expansion of SCHIP twice, and Obama signed it into law in his first week in the White House. I could point out that on credit card reform, about half of the Senate Democrats voted FOR capping interest rates, while NO Republicans did. There is a long list of ways in which the Senate Democrats are far beter than the Senate Republicans... but do I need an endless list of specifics? One running (and never resolved) debate here seems to be "Dems are better than Repubs" vs. "Dems are not really Progressive enough". The real discussion we should have is "How do we best empower Progressives?" In my opinion, there are several ways... but throwing out the Dem baby with the Blue Dog bathwater is not a wise move.

Luke 12:48 "to whom much is given, of him shall much be required". Would Jesus want progressive taxation, or regressive taxation?

[ Parent ]
Yes, constructive criticism. (0.00 / 0)
You were being condescending.

A dissenting fellow progressive is, at worst, a misguided friend.

Who's misguided?  It's not we who truthfully point out that Nader had nothing to do with Bush's theft of the 2000 election.  Given the hatred, blatant dishonesty, threats of a McCain victory if we didn't sell out our principles, and a host of other injustices, the people I mentioned don't exactly qualify as being on the proverbial straight and narrow.  If you don't like the hostility, maybe you ought not to dish it out in the first place.  That's my advice.  Take it or leave it.

2) You said that NR and Gray "lie, threaten, bully, and name-call". Lying, threatening, bullying, and name-calling do create a negative tone... but then, so does accusing another of lying, threatening, bullying, or name-calling. Let's all try to avoid doing those things.

Pointing out the misdeeds of others is not the problem, and you know it.  If I see someone doing something wrong, I am going to speak up and call baloney.  Grow a thicker skin.

3) As an example of alleged lying, please consider the effect of Nader in 2000. I have really tried to accept the pro-Nader viewpoint. I have agreed that a long list of factors could have tipped things the other way, and given us a President Gore. But do you really believe that if Nader would not have been in the race, a majority of Nader voters would have voted for Bush? None of the statistics I have seen posted here (either pro-Nader or anti-Nader) have made me think that a race without Nader would have still led to President Bush. You may disagree with my belief about 2000, but calling my belief a "lie" seems inaccurate and impolite. I really, really do not want to keep re-hashing the Nader-Bush-Gore question, but if we cannot agree upon a few basic facts, it is hard to have a real conversation.

There's nothing to consider.  I said a majority of Nader voters would either have voted for Bush or some other candidate, or not voted at all.  Exit polls bear this out.  So why should we believe that Nader, with roughly half of his supporters going over to gore, somehow had a greater impact than the 200,000=150,000 Democrats who deliberately voted for Bush?  You're crying sour grapes over something that was an absolute non-factor.  Nader's voters were under no obligation to vote for Gore, just as Buchanan's voters were under no obligation to cast ballots for the shrub had their guy not run that year.  What you believe is a lie because it is demonstrably untrue.  If you don't want to keep rehashing this, then stop promulgating a lie.

A fourth idea is that progressives should support third party candidates in non-competitive states only. In 2000, I had not yet moved from Texas to NY. I knew that Bush would win Texas, and I liked some of what I heard Nader saying. (In the end, I chose to vote for Gore, to give him a larger mandate.) But maybe in 2012, if the race is between Obama/Biden and Huckabee/Palin, Kucinich will run as an independent or as a Green. If that happens, then progressives can make a deal: for every Kucinich supporter in a competitive state (like Virginia) that votes for Obama, an Obama supporter in a safe state (like NY) will vote for Kucinich. That way, Kucinich gets the same number of net votes, but he does not flip a competitive state to the Republicans.

That's the "strategic" campaigning that failed so disastrously in 2004, for the reasons I pointed out.

5) I could point out that Bush vetoed an expansion of SCHIP twice, and Obama signed it into law in his first week in the White House. I could point out that on credit card reform, about half of the Senate Democrats voted FOR capping interest rates, while NO Republicans did. There is a long list of ways in which the Senate Democrats are far beter than the Senate Republicans... but do I need an endless list of specifics? One running (and never resolved) debate here seems to be "Dems are better than Repubs" vs. "Dems are not really Progressive enough". The real discussion we should have is "How do we best empower Progressives?" In my opinion, there are several ways... but throwing out the Dem baby with the Blue Dog bathwater is not a wise move.

And for every cosmetic change Obama has made, I can point out something he did that rendered it meaningless.  What's more, given his penchant for issuing illegal signing statements declaring for himself the power to ignore or break laws he doesn't like, what are the chances that SCHIP won't run afoul of that pattern should Obama decide at some point he can't be bothered to fund it?

You say half of Senate Democrats voted for credit card interest rate caps.  That's fine, but it still leaves half of Senate Democrats joining with Republicans to kill them.  Where's the good?  What's the point of supporting a party that refuses continually to support us?  What you fail to realize is that progressive Democrats have already been tossed out - by their own political party.  Unwise would be to stay with a party that does that hoping that if we just hope enough, they'll come around.  Without a mass exodus of voters and politicians from the Democratic Party, it will have no incentive to take its base seriously.



[ Parent ]
positive tone / Nader 2000 / strategic Prog-Dem alliance (0.00 / 0)
1) I understand that you do not want to be called "misguided", but I think that "misguided friend" is better than "enemy". If you want to call me a "misguided friend", then that is fine. If you, NR, and Gray would view each other as "misguided friend" and not as enemies, then I think the tone here would get more polite, and more constructive.
2) You said "...a majority of Nader voters would either have voted for Bush or some other candidate, or not voted at all.  Exit polls bear this out.  So why should we believe that Nader, with roughly half of his supporters going over to gore, somehow had a greater impact than the 200,000=150,000 Democrats who deliberately voted for Bush?". Please understand me. I said that Nader was one factor among many; I did NOT say that Nader had a greater impact than the roughly 200,000 Democrats who voted for Bush.
    But consider this as well: "...a majority of Nader voters would either have voted for Bush or some other candidate, or not voted at all." Bush's margin of "victory" was less than 600 votes. How many thousand votes did Nader get? At least 20,000? If 90% of Nader voters stayed home or voted third party, then two thousand would still have gone to the polls and voted Dem or Repub. And if 65% of that two thousand went to Gore and 35% went to Bush, then Bush would have gained 700 votes, and Gore would have gained 1,300 votes; that would be a net gain of 600 for Gore... which would have put him ahead of Bush.
3) If you want to form your own 3rd party, then that is your right. And if you go "on strike" and refuse to support moderate Dems, then ok. But I personally celebrated yesterday; Coleman conceded and Franken will be seated! Do you share my joy? Or does that horrible, nasty, corporate-owned "D" next to his name make you not want to celebrate his victory? (If Franken is not Progressive enough for you, then who is? Fidel Castro? Vladimir Lenin?) Ok, I'm just kidding about Castro and Lenin, but I want to understand how far the Dems would have to move to the Left to make you happy.
    I personally hate it when "the perfect is the enemy of the good". If you can find a few candidates and issues in which Progressive and Democrat overlap, you could help both Progs and Dems, and strengthen both. That is constructive. But if you help the Green party get an extra one or two percent of the presidential vote in Virginia in 2012, and you flip VA back to the Repubs, you will have earned the eternal thanks of Bush and his pals.

Luke 12:48 "to whom much is given, of him shall much be required". Would Jesus want progressive taxation, or regressive taxation?

[ Parent ]
Again with the condescension. (0.00 / 0)
I am not misguided.  You are.  We are not friends.  You and I do not know each other.  You insult me and then expect me to be gentle in my responses to you.  I am under no obligation to be nice to someone who insists on insulting my intelligence and then compounds the offense by adopting the typical head-patting tone used by people who presume they know more than others when in fact they know less.  You are an enemy, and you are one by choice.

This isn't rocket science.  Nader's voters had no impact on the 2000 stolen election.  NONE.  The 200,000-250,000 Democrats in Florida, and the millions of them nation wide, who deliberately voted for the shrub and his gargoyle did have an impact - and a large one at that.  Blame them for voting with the opposition.  Do NOT dishonestly blame independent voters who are not now and never have been obligated to vote for either major political party of helping Bush and Cheney steal the 2000 election.  They didn't.

The "perfect" doesn't exist.  Once again you are being dishonest and condescending.  No one seriously expects or asks for perfection.  We're demanding something good, but you insist on demanding that we settle for not good enough.

You may wish to consider that it is precisely the hostility, arrogance, and utter contempt you display toward us independent voters that drives us to vote independent in the first place.  If you think Democrats are somehow better than Republicans, explain how they are better, stop making threats, and stop insulting our intelligence.  Until you do that, do not expect even a lick of kindness or civility.  You earn the treatment you get.



[ Parent ]
I am "an enemy... by choice"? OMG (0.00 / 0)
     Maybe I should go hang out on a Rush Limbaugh blog or something... maybe I would be more welcome there.
    My comment about Castro and Lenin was purely a joke, as already stated... but I did have a sincere question for you: "How far to the left is far enough?"
    If you are determined to be my enemy and not my friend, then that is unfortunate, but we are only two people, and whether we are friends or enemies will not matter much in the whole scheme of things. But if you feel towards the typcial Dem the way you feel towards me (and I think I am further to the left than the average Dem) then you really must feel like 90% of America is your enemy. The fringe right is your enemy. The entire Republican party (about 1/3 of all American voters) is your enemy. And most of the Democratic party (about another 1/3 of America) is also your enemy. Is Darcy Burner too far to the right for you? How about Al Franken? Do you feel like maybe you and a couple of dozen people are Left enough, and everyone else is hopelessly far to the Right?
    Ok, enough rhetorical questions. If you would be clear about how much Left is enough for you, I could try to figure out if we could be allies. But for now, it honestly looks like 90% or more of America is on your enemies list. Must be lonely.

Luke 12:48 "to whom much is given, of him shall much be required". Would Jesus want progressive taxation, or regressive taxation?

[ Parent ]
This Doesn't Really Address The Current Situation. (4.00 / 1)
Just saying that people should not split, support or form a third party, doesn't really address the current situation.  

We have a Democratic majority that likely will continue to be the majority for decades.  They are using their position to maximize their corporate contributions, to further consolidate their position as Wall Street's favorite political party.  They are selling us out, breaking all the promises they made to us, and laughing all the way to the bank.  How do we stop them from continuing on this reckless course, and force them to do the right thing?

Just saying that we should support progressive Democratic candidates doesn't answer that question.

For example, let's look at credit card reform.  The Democrats publicly proclaimed that they would stop credit card abuse.  All they did was require the credit card companies to give two weeks notice before sending Guido and Carmine out to bust people's kneecaps.  They refused to cap interest rates, which is the real crime, and the source of the oppression of working people, from the credit card industry.  Then the Democrats came out and announced to the entire nation that they were our heroes, that they had passed "historic" credit card reform legislation.  But that was a lie.  They said so, thinking they could fool people.  Repeat the lie often enough, you can fool everyone.  Wasn't that Goebbels who said that?

Now we have the promise of healthcare reform, and the stench of what appears to be the planned sell-out again.  Obama claims that the industry has made a completely illusory unenforceable, lacking in specifics, fairy-tale promise that they will really really try to cut their costs down, ten years in the future.  Then he tells the drug companies also promise to try harder.  Want to bet that the only "reform" we'll see is a corporate give-away, more taxpayer money being given to the private health insurance industry to buy insurance at exorbitant rates for the currently-uninsured.  

End the wars?  Nope.  They keep expanding the wars, and the duration, and the countries involved.

Where are the jobs?  Where is the help for working people?  There is none.  Instead, we see Steny Hoyer as the Infomercial pitchman for more "free" trade agreements to take more jobs out of our country.  

Where is the Democratic plan, where is their sense of urgency, to create good jobs for Americans to replace all the manufacturing jobs that left our country?  They have no plan.  They have no urgency.  They are too busy collecting bribes to care about the working people of this country.

Banks and Wall Street accountability?  Not exactly.  The Democrats have given then trillions of dollars of our money, and Obama has turned the entire treasury over to their most loyal lieutenants.

Prosecution for torture?  Nope.  Hearings to expose the lies that got us into the Iraq war?  None.  

It's just one thing after the next.

So saying that we should stand by our man doesn't answer the question:  how can we force the Democrats to stop selling out us and our country to the corporations, and start representing the people?  I see no reason to support any Democrat given their appalling performance during the first half of this year.

So, what can we do?


Se my diary from today on what we can do. (0.00 / 0)
You can read it here.  What we need are ideas, not more excuse-making for doing nothing.  I'd love to see a Progressive Party re-opened here in Ohio, one that can run and win on a progressive platform.  Unfortunately, I don't know who in my area would be keen on it.  it's as though people either have stopped caring, or they're afraid to even mention it.  Cuyahoga is a heavily Democratic county despite its recent string of political corruption scandals.



[ Parent ]
If you don't know anyone who would support the idea (0.00 / 0)
I stand by my assertion that part of the problem is the beliefs of solid Democratic voters that has nothing to do with them being fooled by politicians and corporations and the media.

Things You Don't Talk About in Polite Company: Religion, Politics, the Occasional Intersection of Both

[ Parent ]
"more and better Democrats" / primary the DINO's / no splitting in 2012 (0.00 / 0)
     You and I have discussed this broad topic before. It is the old argument of "Dems are better than Repubs" vs "Dems are not realy Progressive enough".
    One way that you can feel ideologically pure as a Progressive, and yet also help expand the Democrats' big tent, is to exclusively help strong Progressive Democrats. Look for candidates endorsed by DFA, or those that get high scores from Progressive Punch. In 2008, I focused most of my time and money on helping the Dems take the White House and the Senate. But I also gave a bit of time and money to help Darcy Burner, Alan Grayson, and Eric Massa. And Grayson and Massa won!
    I personally hate it when "the perfect is the enemy of the good". Not everyone at OL agrees with me, but I still think that Nader was one factor (among many) that gave us Bush. If Progressives are unhappy with the Dems overall, and refuse to help elect a Blue Dog or DINO, then that is fine; if you go "on strike", then maybe the Dems will move back to the Left to earn your support. But please, find a few candidates and issues in which Progressive and Democrat overlap, and help out there. That is constructive. But if you help the Green party get an extra one or two percent of the vote in Virginia in 2012, you will have earned the eternal thanks of Bush and his pals.

Luke 12:48 "to whom much is given, of him shall much be required". Would Jesus want progressive taxation, or regressive taxation?

[ Parent ]
Tasini vs. Gillibrand / Al Franken / etc. (0.00 / 0)
     I just got an email from Healthcare-NOW. They are supporting a single-payer advocate, Jonathan Tasini, in his run to primary Gillibrand.
    Would his attempt to primary Gillibrand be worth your time or money to support? If he wins, would you refuse to vote for him just because he had that horrible, nasty, corporate-owned "D" next to his name?
    I am more of a moderate. I do not know what his chances are of defeating Gillibrand in the primary, and so at this point I am not willing to exert myself to help him. But if he is running within 10 percent of Gillibrand within a month or two of the primary, then I will help him. And if he gets the nomination, I will certainly help him defeat whichever Republican tries to beat him in the general election.
    I use this example to try to understand a broader question. I understand that 3rd-pary advocates like you and MK believe that the Dems are (mostly) too far to the Right, and are (mostly) the tools of wealthy corporate interests. But can you not think of ANY worthy Democrat? (For example, I am beside myself with joy that Coleman has conceded.) Surely you and I can at least agree that Franken is both a Democrat and also a true Progressive?  

Luke 12:48 "to whom much is given, of him shall much be required". Would Jesus want progressive taxation, or regressive taxation?

[ Parent ]
I'd Wait And See On Franken (0.00 / 0)
When he finally won, Franken immediately gave the Obama/Reid speech:  well, just because we have 60 votes doesn't mean we'll do anything unless we have Republican support.  This is either a phony cover for their refusal to do anything because the corporate masters don't want them to.  Or they refuse to do anything without Republican support because they don't want to accept responsibility for their own actions.  In either event, we the people get nothing.  And why is there any question about whether Franken would support single-payer?  What about the ending the wars, what's his position there?  I would not assume Franken will be progressive once in office.  Let's wait and see.

[ Parent ]
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