Thinking Big-To-Small vs. Thinking Small-To-Big

by: Paul Rosenberg

Sun Jul 05, 2009 at 19:00


I'm a radical.  I have an abiding interest in understanding and attacking problems at their roots.  From my point of view, the value of liberalism is that it codifies and institutionalized the great radical struggles and achievements of the past-what once were "untkinkable", such as the abolition of slavery, or the attainment of legal equality for women.

Much of what we take for granted is never seriously questioned.  And much of that is simply false.  Fortunately, much of that doesn't really matter all that much.  But some of it does, intensely so.  And so does getting a handle on the deeper common denominators that keep us from questioning what's taken for granted as we should, and keep us from seeing things from a different, more liberating, more insightful, more inclusive perspective.

In this diary, I want to discuss one of the most fundamental factors that keeps us from questioning things deeply enough, and developing new perspectives.  I call it "thinking from small to big," as opposed to "thinking from big to small."  The later is the abstract concept behind the slogan, "Think globally, act locally." The former is simply what comes naturally, given how our brains are wired.  But it's also natural to grow beyond that sort of thinking.  Indeed, that's one reason why human societies around the world have routinely venerated their elders as unique sources of wisdom-one function of age is to expand the horizons of ones vision, and to come to see the particulars that fill our lives when we are younger as pieces of a larger, unified whole.

My main discussion here is going to be a bit abstract.  In fact, it's going to be about mathematics (heavy on pictures aka "diagrams", light on numbers, but still, math).The reason for that is simple: virtually all of human cognition has patterned aspects to it, and mathematics if the language of patterns.  

Paul Rosenberg :: Thinking Big-To-Small vs. Thinking Small-To-Big
I want to use the simplest example possible, and I want to be as pictorial as possible,  So I'm going to talk about the simplest geometrical entities there are: points and lines.  A point is a zero-dimensional object, a line is one-dimensional, and the way we get from one to the other is the subject of this discussion.  Thinking from small to big, that question becomes, "How do we get from a point to a line?"  And the simple answer turns out to be, "You don't.  It's impossible."  The proof of this comes from Georg Cantor, one of the greatest mathematicians of all time.  On the other hand, thinking from big to small, the question becomes, "How do we get from a line to a point?"  And that question turns out to be relatively easy.  So easy, in fact, that I'll give two different demonstrations, the second of which derives from another late 19th Century mathematician,  Richard Dedekind, who was a friend and admirer of Cantor.  We'll tackle this problem first, then I'll talk about what it means more generally.

First, let's get precise, so we understand exactly what these two questions mean.  Then we'll look at how they can be solved-or if not, why not.  To go from a point to a line means, in effect, how can we manipulate a point (including movement, endless duplication, rearrangement, etc.) to come up with a line-or, to make thinking about it simple, a line segment, meaning part of a line of finite length.  To go from a line to a point means much the same thing:  how can we manipulate a line to come up with a point?

Because going from a point to a line is impossible, we'll discuss it last.  First, we'll discuss what is possible, so you can understand what it means.  The easiest way to make a point from a line takes two steps.

First, you duplicate it:

Second, you take the duplicate and make it intersect the original:

The intersection is a point.

This is very simple, and part of its simplicity comes from the fact that we've used a second dimension when we take the second line and rotate it so that it intersects with the original.  This is another indication of the superiority of thinking big, from more dimensions to less, rather than the other way around.  But some might consider it cheating, if we're trying to strictly compare turning zero-dimensions into one versus the reverse.  So let's take another approach.  This one derives in spirit from the Dedekind cut, a mathematical construction on the number line that resolves the seeming contradiction between the continuous nature of the line, and the discrete nature of any specific number.

First take a line and cut it twice, to make a line segment:  Cutting a line once is the simplest sort of manipulation you can perform in one dimension, so it's clearly an allowable manipulation.  Once you have a line segment, the rest is easy: you just shrink it.  For simplicity's sake, we'll say you shrink it in half.  How does that help us get a single point?  Simple: you repeat the process an infinite number of times.  Now some folks argue that you can't do anything an infinite number of times-and physically, they're absolutely right.  But conceptually, you can, and we're dealing with concepts here.  And when you do that, what you end up with is a single point.  

In fact, this is precisely what a decimal representation of a real number is all about-only shrinking the line segment by 1/10 each time, instead of ½.  Think of the number pi, the ratio of the diameter of a circle to its circumference, a decimal that goes on forever, but begins 3.1415....  We can think of it in terms of line locations on a line segment, each one a smaller subsegment than the one before.  For each step, the numeral stands for a segment whose lower bound is the numeral, and whose upper bound is the next numeral.  

We begin with step zero (mathematicians often like to start with zero), with 3 on a line segment of length 10:

Next, step one: we have 3.1:  We take the segment from 3 to 4, and take the sub-segment from 3.1 to 3.2:

Now, step two: We do the same to get the segment for 3.14:

And step three, for the segment for 3.141:

And so on, and so on, to infinity.

This process gives us an infinite number of numbers, each corresponding to a single point.  For the number 3, for example, we simply take a line segment starting at 3 for every step from step one onward.


Nerd Alert!  All others please ignore!

The Dedekind Cut is a concept that makes all of the above quite simple and obvious.  As Wikipedia explains, The cut is:

a partition of the rational numbers into two non-empty parts A and B, such that all elements of A are less than all elements of B and A contains no greatest element. The cut itself is, conceptually, the "gap" defined between A and B. In other words, A is every number between the cut and any number lower than the cut, and B is every number between the cut and a number greater than the cut. The cut itself is in neither set.

The concept is very important because:

The Dedekind cut resolves the contradiction between the continuous nature of the number line continuum and the discrete nature of the numbers themselves. Wherever a cut occurs and it is not on a real rational number, an irrational number (which is also a real number) is created by the mathematician. Through the use of this device, there is considered to be a real number, either rational or irrational, at every point on the number line continuum, with no discontinuity.

End Nerd Alert!  We now return you to your regularly scheduled diary.


Now, how do we make a line from a point?  Well, it would be simple if we could make a line segment.  Then all we'd have to do is stretch it to infinity. Or, if you prefer, we could just double its length, and then repeat an infinite number of times.  So the real trick is getting from a point to a line segment.  And that's what's impossible.  How do I know?  Simple-since Cantor showed the way with his "diagonal proof" back in 1891.  

For simplicity sake, let's assume the line segment is segment going from 0 to 1.  And let's assume-for the sake of argument-that you've managed to manipulate one point to fill it all.  I'm going to show that this can't be done: assuming it's so produces a contradiction. At each step, you can only make one point into a finite number of other ones.  So for each step, you write down the decimal representation of the points that you've created.  (The order you write them in isn't important.)  Now, we allow you an infinite number of steps, so the list can be infinitely long.  I'm going to show that there's a number that isn't on this list, which means you actually haven't created the whole line segment, even in an infinite number of steps.  The actual numbers aren't important, so let's just assume it starts of looking like this:

    0.124809...
    0.743821...
    0.297537...
    0.447302...

Constructing a number not on the list is simple-and here's where I'm following Cantor exactly.  For the first decimal place, we chose any numeral except "1", the first decimal of the first number on the list.  for the second decimal place, number, we choose any numeral except "4", the second decimal of the second number on the list.  For the third decimal place, we chose any numeral except "7", the third decimal of the third number on the list, and so on, for all the numbers on the list.  The number we generate in this manner cannot be on the list, because it differs from every nth number at the nth decimal place.

There's a lot of sophisticated mathematics that's inherent in this demonstration.  For one thing, it shows that there's a difference between a countable and an uncountable infinity.  This is what Cantor's proof was all about.  Cantor originally used it to show that there are more real numbers (all possible decimal representations) than there are rational numbers (those expressible as a ratio of two integers: a/b).  The concept of one infinity being "more than" another in turn gave rise to transfinite arithmetic.  The fact that there are an infinite number of rational numbers in any line segment, and yet there are uncountably more numbers that aren't rational also helps illustrate some of the most important concepts in topology and how they relate to one another.  Furthermore, in calculus, the Lebesgue integral-a way of calculating the area under a curve-remains unchanged if one removes all the rational numbers.

It's not important to understand the mathematics involved.  What is important is simply to realize that the lack of symmetry between the little-to-bit and the big-to-little approaches is the doorway to a good deal of rich and complex mathematics that one might never have suspected in advance.  It's almost like Alice discovering Wonderland.

Generalizing Beyond Mathematics

"Okay," you might say, "So what?  What does this sort of obscure, geekland mathematics have to do with anything else, especially politics and ideology?"  Good question.

First, it shows us something very fundamental about reality and how we conceive it.   It shows that conceiving something on one level that's completely consistent and self-contained does not guarantee that we can go ahead and simply rely on what we know to understand a greater level of complexity.    If this is true about some of the simplest mathematical objects imaginable, then it is very hard to see how we could assume that it's not true about anything else.  And, of course, "conceiving something on one level that's completely consistent and self-contained" is very good description of a successfulform of fundamentalist thinking-let alone the failed forms that aren't even internally consistent.  

Second, this has direct applicability to Kegan's model of cognitive development and its applicability to politics.  The relationship of point (zero dimensions) to line (one dimension) to is directly analogous to the relationship between one level of cognitive development and the next.  The point is content relative to the context of the line.  One understands the point in terms of the line-and the Dedekind Cut makes this not just explicit, but formally precise.  At the same time, one cannot understand the line in terms of the point-even if one generates an infinite number of points on the line, there are an uncountable infinity more points that are not accounted for.  In fact, for some purposes-such as Lebesgue integration-the infinity of points one can generate make no difference whatsoever.

Both separately and together, these two points support an argument generally favoring liberalism over conservatism, while at the same time warning against becoming too smug. As I have argued in terms of Kegan's model of cognitive development, liberalism is inherently more compatible with a more sophisticated, more broadminded level of cognition.  Conservatism is more compatible with level 3, where the self is constructed in terms of the social roles and relationships of the surrounding society, while liberalism is more compatible with level 4, in which the self is author to such roles and relationships.  

However, Kegan's model also informs us that liberalism and level 4 can also be limiting, and that there's a higher level at which their taken-for-granted truths become open for critical questioning. It's just as  possible for liberals to be closed-minded towards this higher level of complexity as conservatives are to the complexity that liberals are more comfortable with.  This is not to say that both are equally close-minded, however, much less to imply that so-called "moderates" are superior.  Rather, it's to remind us that all breakthroughs lead to new challenges, new problems that require new breakthroughs in turn.


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I was think of a nerd concept myself before the Dedekind cut. (0.00 / 0)
Some infinities are larger than other infinities. The set of infinite real numbers between 1 and 2 is smaller than the set of infinite real numbers between 1 and 3.

"They pour syrup on shit and tell us it's hotcakes." Meteor Blades

Wow (4.00 / 3)
Another hidden talent I didn't suspect - a grounding in mathematics, not based on statistics. Nice summary, I haven't thought about this since high school (Dover books are a great resource).

I just watched the movie musical 1776 again last night and it brought home how the fundamental tensions of our society have been with us since the beginning. I realize that it was a bit over drawn since there was a subtle anti-Nixon message embedded in the history.

However, the conflict between property owners and the common man was well characterized as was the desire for stability and trade versus individual freedom and liberty.

Much of the progressive achievements over the centuries can be viewed as a triumph of the common man, or as the acquiescence to modest change to avert the possibility of greater influence of the masses. The one case where this spectacularly broke down was the Civil War. The southern slave holders could have worked out a much better deal for themselves politically if they had been willing modify their self image as superior beings. We know this because the wealthy continued to dominate the society even after Reconstruction and do so in many places even today.

Unions, universal suffrage, social security and similar advances were all designed to forestall the rise of socialism, communism or other frightening social ideas of the moment.

I ask again, why don't we have people in the streets this time? Unemployment is acknowledged to be 9.5% which really means it is probably closer to 18% and yet people just sit around and take it.  

Policies not Politics


No people in the streets (4.00 / 4)
Because there exists no organization (or set of local organizations) to mobilize them.  And no clear target to mobilize against.  And no clear "we" to come together to speak to power.

Of course it could "happen."  Sometimes things do "happen."

Or existing organizations could be used for new purposes.  

As Paul has pointed out, the "depression" is not new news for many of the most oppressed people in our country.  18% unemployment for many of them would be a luxury.  This silence in the face of employment genocide has been going on for a long time.


--Aaron Schutz (Core Dilemmas of Community Organizing)


[ Parent ]
we still have labor unions and community groups (0.00 / 0)
what i would strongly suggest is that the next time people are interested in volunteering for a democratic campaign or giving money to one or otherwise supporting electoral politics that is not ready to be fully supported right now, that they give at least half, if not all, of what they were planning to give (whether in labor or in cash) to labor unions.  We need social institutions that can mobilise, that can go beyond compeltely pragmatic calculations to involve an ethos of justice, and which can focus on greater ends.

A great example is the california anti-gay marriage prop - if the millions that had been invested in that had gone into supporting lgbt community organisations, it would have laid the groundwork for a groundswell on that issue.  Not that that's not happening anyway and that the high profile campaign doesn't have any effects in our media-controlled and electorally controlled culture - I just would like to see a different culture AS WELL AS gay marriage legalised :)

And so forth on other issues...if you want single player health care, support people who believe in single payer health care!  


[ Parent ]
Denial (4.00 / 3)
Never underestimate the power of denial-Ricky Fitz in American Beauty. There is going to be denial right straight down into the new paradigm. some will just have to die off. It's going to go on a long time. Whether you will survive depends on how fast you can dance, make plans, activate them, etc.

Obama doesn't get it so we might as well face that. And he is going to take the hit for it because it is going to be really really bad.

No answers here.


[ Parent ]
Why no people in the street (4.00 / 2)
Of course there's more than one answer to this, and people here have already mentioned some of them. But here are two that I believe don't receive nearly enough attention from armchair radicals wondering why nobody's out in the streets.

1. Lack of unions, job security, and a social safety net: People see successful general strikes in Europe and wonder why not here? Well, compared to the U.S., most places in Europe where we see those massive general strikes have excellent social safety nets. The workers there aren't risking losing health care for themselves and their families if they get fired. And if they do lose their jobs, they have far superior unemployment benefits. It's a level of security most U.S. workers can't even imagine. Having that kind of "quality of life" security makes a huge difference in peoples' ability and willingness to be politically engaged and active. I agree with Thom Hartmann when he says the War on the Middle Class was/is about keeping working people so insecure that they don't have the time or will to be politically active.

2. Fear: Even though it's rarely talked about openly, especially since 9/11 people are very, very afraid of our police and government, and rightly so. Hardly anyone wants to admit it let alone talk about it, but it's true. And the more we resist talking about it openly, the greater the fear factor becomes.


[ Parent ]
i'm terrified! (0.00 / 0)
when you have to think about what you think or what you say out loud on a space like facebook or on IM, then you can legitimately call that fear and political censorship.

However, I don't think it's since 9-11 - you can start with the Alien and Sedition acts in 1798 or earlier and go from there.  For people who don't fit in the (narrow) confines of acceptable political opinion in the U.S., they have to come to terms with perhaps having a certain level of fear but dealing with it emotionally.  So maybe what we need is more social support from each other :)

At least for those of us with anxiety disorders :)


[ Parent ]
"I don't think it's since 9-11" (0.00 / 0)
I agree. That's why I said especially since 9/11. I believe that date marks a definite demarkation in the amping up of intimidation and scare tactics in the modern era.

I also agree we need more social support from each other. A good first step would be an open acknowledgment of what everyone seems to not want to openly acknowledge: that we are very afraid of our govt. and our growing police state.


[ Parent ]
So (4.00 / 1)
you can't understand the little picture unless you understand the big picture?

I'm not sure the math analogy works entirely, here.  The key is the relationship between the individual points and the line.  Whenever you change the line you change the points.  Esp in our globalizing world there is reverberation.  But is this true in the mathematical example?

Paul, have you read "The Birth of the Modern World?"  Read it while I was supposed to be working on something else.  Expands our vision of globalization to include worldwide developments.  Fascinating.  not tha tyou need more to read . . . .  Feels revolutionary, but I'm not up enough on stuff like this to know.  Related to this big picture little picture issue.

http://www.amazon.com/Birth-Mo...

--Aaron Schutz (Core Dilemmas of Community Organizing)


Well, You Have To Keep Your Maps Straight (4.00 / 3)
There's always "To see the world in a grain of sand/Or heaven in a wild flower/Hold infinity in the palm of your hand/And eternity in an hour".

But that's the fractal side of things, in which the same structure repeats itself at different levels of scale.

What I'm getting at here is how, for example, personal thrift, which the individual needs to get through hard times, is terrible for economy as a whole if everyone practices it.  There's no way to understand this using the type of analysis that's scaled to the individual.  This is why micro-economics and macro-economics are two distinct fields.  It's why you can have a society virtually free of individual racists, yet still have tremendous racial injustice, with vast differences in unemployment rates, arrest and incarceration rates, infant mortality rates, etc., etc., etc.

If you want to understand these things, you've got to approach them at the proper level.  You can understand the micro from the macro, because the macro deals with the system of all the micros interacting together.

But from micro to macro things happen that you can't foresee.  You can't construct the whole from the parts, because part of the whole is the interaction of the parts that only happens when they become parts of the whole.

This mathematical example is just a very basic demonstration of that fact.  It shows that you don't need to get very fancy before this principle kicks in.  Points and lines are all you need.  

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
It's probably not related (0.00 / 0)
but one of my first thoughts while reading this post was about how so often the Democrats "pre-concede" to the Republicans when trying to get legislation passed. Instead of thinking "Big" and asking for the world, the Dems, in trying to pacify the rethuglicans, will pre-pick apart their bill first. Instead of thinking big from the outset, they seem to actually try to think as small as possible. And the Dems never seem to learn that there's no "pacifying" the rethugs. The tiniest bill that actually serves the people will still be made smaller once they've had their say.

(Yes, I understand that this serves the purposes of the corporate Dems as well and so they're not inclined to think "Big" anyway, but that's not what I'm talking about here).  


The fallacy of control (4.00 / 3)
There's an even more fundamental irony at work here, it seems to me. As control technologies and management techniques improve, one would naturally expect that systemic outcomes would be more beneficial, or at least more stable.

That isn't in fact what's happened. Instead, the people who deploy these improved techniques actually begin to believe that they control more than they actually do, and that their very real powers, which can appear almost magical in the right context (shock and awe, anyone?) have somehow allowed them to categorically banish unintended consequences. There's an ancient Greek word for this kind of self-delusion, but virtually none of our current crop of smartfellas can imagine applying it to themselves, even though presumably they've read the same books we have.

When we look ahead another ten years, we see a distinct possibility that the American Empire is headed over a cliff, and that Americans at home could find themselves living in a permanent banana republic. This isn't, I think, because we've been reasoning backwards, from micro to macro, which is what someone like Jack Welch or Henry Kissinger might accuse us of, but rather because we understand the relationship between the two in moral as well as purely utilitarian terms.

It's all very well to use points and lines to illustrate the principal of discontinuity between what individuals perceive as determining their fates, and what actually determines them, but I'd maintain that the macro forces which cause empires to fail are best controlled, not by a few smart folks with an ever more impressive set of tools at their disposal, but by the seeming chaos of a more genuine democracy. Even when hardly anyone who takes part in the process can foresee exactly what the outcome of his own actions is likely to be, I believe the general outcome can scarcely be any worse than what our deluded technocrats have already led us to. I don't think, in other words, that they've made mistakes; I think that in a very profound sense, they are the mistake.


"Shock and awe" (0.00 / 0)
Mr. Timberman has chosen a very peculiar illustration of improved "control technologies and management techniques."

(shock and awe, anyone?)

"Shock and awe" was more like a reversion to pure animal fury than any sort of calculation, technique, or management, and it's still worth remembering that a significant component of "shock and awe" was supposed to be decapitation of the Baath Party by laser-bombing the top 50 party functionaries, including Saddam Hussein.

All 50 laser-bombs missed their targets.

Idiots ran the invasion and occupation of Iraq, and the real technicians of social and political reorganization at the State Department and elsewhere were left entirely out of the loop.

Mr. Timberman seems to be promoting a sort of populist know-nothingism... The masses will roil, and somehow social benefits will accrue.

But it may be a mistake to despair of all the works of human intelligence, on the slender evidence of "shock and awe" administered by Dick "Mad Dog" Cheney and an idiot-boy like George W. Bush.


[ Parent ]
Pace, Jacob (0.00 / 0)
As usual, you've missed the point. A measured dose of what you're calling know-nothingism, administered daily before retiring, would do you a world of good.

[ Parent ]
The shallow left... (0.00 / 0)
Poor old Timberman assumes that criticism of his ludicrous post can only mean the critic misunderstood him, and "mis-underestimated" his cleverness.

Low- and no-brow left-wing "thinkers" can't comprehend why the Republican Party hasn't been obliterated by their brilliance, which mainly consists of repeating a small set of idées reçues among themselves, and endlessly waiting for applause from the little people whom they claim to represent.

But the little people constantly reject the bogus, self-congratulatory wisdom of the contemporary left in favor of no ideas whatsoever, if that's the choice, and the contemporary left responds by applauding themselves even more furiously than before.

Obama stands in the same relation to Roosevelt as the left-wing blogosphere compared to the deeply engaged leftist criticsm of the Thirties, and it's only safe for Obama to constantly betray the interests of ordinary citizens because he knows that their defenders from the first Great Depression have been replaced by shallow, self-promoting clowns.


[ Parent ]
Once more -- and only once more -- unto the breach (0.00 / 0)
It's hard to grasp exactly what you're arguing, Jacob. And yes, I often suspect that you're not sure yourself. Is it that

1) the rabble is stupid,

or that

2) these self-appointed leftist intellectuals' identification with the rabble is false and self-serving,

or that

3) William Timberman is uniquely phony and therefore worthy of special condemnation,

or that

4) there's only one smart person, and his name is Jacob Freeze.

All of the above? None of the above? Something else entirely? In any event, there's no need to play the junkyard dog. Nothing said here, by me or anyone else, should cause a master of the wisdom of the ages to lose his self-possession. Polemic is one thing; intellectual rabies another, don't you think?


[ Parent ]
Wouldn't it be lovely if... (0.00 / 0)
Wouldn't it be lovely if everything anyone writes could be reduced one-line clichés?

Then Mr. Timberman would already understand everything, and his banal permutations of a few buzz-words would be dignified by something like inevitability.

"There are only 52 ideas, each of them expressible in one line, so why not just shuffle the deck."

This axiomatic approach to political philosophy would probably enchant Paul Rosenberg, who has obviously enjoyed a respectable mathematical education, and his presentation of Dedekind's development of the real numbers was so nearly irreproachable that I was finally reduced to picking on the small fry way down in the comments.

Harharharhar!!!

But even Mr. Timberman can read and comprehend simple prose, if he takes the trouble to try, and it really isn't additional evidence of his intellectual shortcomings so much as a carelessness which he probably intended to be insulting that he mistakenly substitutes identification for representation in one of his cliché-renderings of what I might think.

2) these self-appointed leftist intellectuals' identification with the rabble is false and self-serving...

Left-wing intellectuals don't "identify" with anything like the little people, sincerely or otherwise, and it's one of the grand advantages of the Republican Party that at least a few of its functionaries actually believe they are serving the interests of "people like us."

This attitude isn't really unusual among Republican staffers on Capitol Hill, especially for short-term Representatives, but after a couple of cycles most of them wake up to the fact that their bosses aren't "people like us" any more, if they ever were...


[ Parent ]
Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! #4 We Have A Winner! Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! (0.00 / 0)
4) there's only one smart person, and his name is Jacob Freeze.

Was there really ever any doubt?

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I was trying to be polite (0.00 / 0)
Not trying very hard, I admit, and not really succeeding. Mea culpa. I won't do it again. Letting Jacob be Jacob may wilt all the flowers in the neighborhood, but on balance, it seems the Christian thing to do.

[ Parent ]
Idiocy Is Overdetermined (4.00 / 2)
The folks running any given empire always see things from a unique point of view, while folks like us see them as just the latest in a long line of imperial idiots.

The belief that this time it's different is an essential component of all empires.  The standard reasoning is that this time it's different because God's on our side.

The belief that this time it's different because of our omnipotent control technologies reflects the impact of the Industrial Revolution on elite theology.

You:

I don't think, in other words, that they've made mistakes; I think that in a very profound sense, they are the mistake.

Tacitus:

To plunder, to slaughter, to steal, these things they misname empire; and where they make a wilderness, they call it peace.


"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Golden oldies redux (4.00 / 1)
Yeah, what I'm saying isn't new, and better minds have wrestled with the same conundrum over the centuries. What's new is the scale of the devastation which all our shiny technological toys place at the disposal of the usual suspects. Caesar may have slaughtered his hundreds of thousands, and Hitler his millions, but melting Greenland, or stopping photosynthesis in the oceans is like, serious, dude.

[ Parent ]
Old And New (4.00 / 1)
I wasn't so much saying Tacitus got there before you.  I thought it made a nice pairing is all.

And, yes, indeedy!  They think that their new technology gods make them unique, and they're right... but not in the way that they think.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
on an aside (4.00 / 1)
henry kissinger had good seats at wimbledon.  I saw him on TV.  None of the (British) commentators mentioned his role in, say, killing tons of people or destabilising several countries.  

On the other hand, hundreds of thousands (millions)? of people aer in American jails for such horrible offesnses as selling weed or small scale fraud or having a lawyer that didn't tell them they were ordered deported.  Some of them will likely be killed.

Take from that what you will.


[ Parent ]
No matter how fine a point one makes (4.00 / 2)
Somebody is going to come along with a big hammer and smash it into a line. /s

Great work this weekend as always, Paul.

Thanks!


Line to point (0.00 / 0)
Why not just make two cuts, generate a line segment, then rotate the line segment 90 degrees, creating a point? One might be able to get by with a single cut, perhaps. Cut, duplicate one "half" of the line, change perspective.

Seems a bit more in tune with the general concept of trying for as broad and inclusive a perspective as one can manage.

I'm not trying to be uppity, but I wonder when the last time you questioned the premise that human behavior can be modeled with mathematics, or that "reality" is entirely physical?



"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


The Cuts Aren't Needed (0.00 / 0)
The intersection of two lines is a point.  So why go to the trouble of making line segments?

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
I got that from your subsequent analyses (0.00 / 0)
My first thought was simply to turn the line 90 degrees, but that raised the issue of whether one could adopt a perspective orthogonal to an infinite line. Thus, the segment. Then I thought that one could simply adopt the perspective of being within the line and slowly rotating until the point appeared. But, maybe that would lead to some digression about whether the Observer can exist within the Object. That may be an interesting conversation on its own, but I'd rather approach it in a comfortable setting, say around a dining table, or a few well-chosen glasses of beer while seated in comfy chairs.

Intersection is a form of cutting, no? To me, the cross-section approach provides a more graphic image of a point. When I first think of intersecting lines, I see an "X", and imagining the point requires some rearranging of that initial mental image. Maybe its just me, but cut and turn approach provides an initial mental image that more closely resembles that of a point, so it has an advantage.

But, like I said, if you'll allow me the ability (in this abstract mental experiment) to view the infinite line head-on, then I can forego the cuts. On the other hand, we are reducing the apparent dimensionality when moving from line to point, so perhaps, cutting is appropriate.

"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
These Are Intersting Questions (0.00 / 0)
For a long time, of course, it was simply assumed that certain mathematical things could be done and certain things couldn't.  Just as certain mathematical things existed and certain mathematical things didn't.  It then turned out that some age-old intuitions were wrong.  This lead to a series of arguments that continues to this day.  There's an approach to mathematics known as "constructivism" that doesn't allow for simply positing the existence of objects that can't be constructed from primitive ones.  But almost everyone who does that sort of math today does it more as an art form than a religious belief, which is what it began as.

Most of this has no direct relation to the question you raise, about manipulating an infinite line.  But there's certainly a relationship in spirit.  There are also, of course, intuitions about mathematical objects that are simply mistaken.  But sometimes a mistaken intuition actually holds within it the seeds of a significant insight that has application elsewhere.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Mathematics is the language by which we can model "reality" (0.00 / 0)
Moreover, even the best model will be limited by what the humans that construct it can concieve of as being "real". Although it is difficult at times, I think one has to keep reminding themselves that as elegant and beautiful as mathematical models may be, they are not truly "reality".

It may even be possible that some aspects of "reality" are not able to be modeled by any mathematics, ever. Now, I'm a strong advocate of rationality and reason, so I'd like to believe that humans will be able to develop mathematical models that can fully define the Universe and the relationships between all levels of physical organization, but I have too much doubt to ever be a true believer of anything.


"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
no it's totally reality (0.00 / 0)
a neoliberal economist told me so.

[ Parent ]
"Free Market" (0.00 / 0)
Model or Reality?


"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
well if you mean 'law of the wolves' (0.00 / 0)
well, that happens in some places more than others.

if you mean 'a market with perfect competition' - well, even free-market economists have utopian dream... :P

On an aside, is there any chance that America's Next Top Model can be used for this debate? :)


[ Parent ]
I was being facetious (0.00 / 0)
But, to some extent the reliance of our financial system on economic models generated by very proficient mathematicians and computer programmers was part of the reason that few saw the recent collapse coming toward us.

In a sense, they became so entranced by the elegance of their mathematical models that they began to believe that the predictions of the model were reality. Same can be said of those physicists that are scouring the known universe for "dark matter", because dammit, the models say that it MUST be there, so obviously, we just haven't looked hard enough.

That is, assuming it wasn't all just a scam.

Maybe this season's version of America's Next Top Model should include a segment in which the contestants are asked to design an outfit (complete with make-up and accessories) that reflects the basic tenets of the world's economic philosophies? Assigned randomly, of course.


"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
"the reliance of our financial system on economic models generated by very proficient mathematicians and computer programmers was part of the reason that few saw the recent collapse coming toward us." (0.00 / 0)
we've been through this many times.  It happened with Plato and it happened with the Vietnam War.  When people think that a small group of smart people can decide what's best for everyone else, it usually ends badly, regardless of what they think or whether or not they care.  If they're enabled by excessively high speed technology that legal and political technologies and power balances haven't caught up with, even better for the creation of an apocalypse.

[ Parent ]





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