Kossack Broderism: It's NOT The Certainty, Stupid!

by: Paul Rosenberg

Sat Jul 11, 2009 at 16:00


On Thursady, AZDem had a recommended diary at DKos, "The Myth of Certainty: Obama, Liberals & Daily Kos " that's arguably a perfect example of the way that a marginally hipper version of High Broderism manifests itself at DKos, and elsewhere throughout the blogosphere and beyond.

As with Broder himself, the diary depends on a simplistic, schematic false equivalency of left and right, which ends up praising shallow centrism as a fount of deep wisdom.  Given its origins, it does not end up outright endorsing center-right policies as if they were centrist. It simply praises Obama, so that as he compromises further and further, it will have exactly the same effect, praising him for his centrism as he moves ever farther right ... unless, of course, progressives reject this argument, and pressure Obama so that he does not drift further and further right.  What's more, it even goes so far as to label this centrism as "true liberalism."

In this diary, I want to challenge the simplistic terms of AZDem's narrative about certainty, and I want to propose an alternative framework--the Enlightenment framework of critical reason, which an August 2003 congressional report found to be under sustained attack by the Bush Administration.  While AZDem wants to push the narrative that other Kossack liberals have run amuck with Bush-like certainty, deludedly attacking Obama for his anti-Bush willingness to hear all sides, I propose a radically different view, one that's much more grounded in the nitty-gritty of the actual historical record.

In my view, the problem is, quite simply, that Obama has not consistently committed himself to re-establishing and rehabilitating the framework of truth-seeking in policy-setting and communicating with the American people. My problem with Obama is not that he listens to conservatives, but that he accepts as valid conservative claims without empirical foundation, while at the same time ignoring progressive points of view--even when well-founded, and when representing substantial majority opinion.

Paul Rosenberg :: Kossack Broderism: It's NOT The Certainty, Stupid!
The False Flag Of "Certainty" As Fundamental Problem

AZDem takes as his point of departure an analysis by Bush Administration Deputy Attorney General James B. Comey, Jr., who was responsible for refusing to reauthorize the NSA domestic wiretapping program when Ashcroft was hospitalized.  In the passage AZDem quotes, Comey identifies the bottom-line problem with Bush Administration as its certainty.

While Comey's refusal was certainly admirable, and reflected something fundamental about his character, his actions do not negate the fact that he was, after all, a Bush Administration appointee, and an ideological conservative.  Therefore, it seems only natural that he would be far more likely to see other conservatives erring more in terms of their process than in terms of fundamental substance.  To put it bluntly, he would say the problem was that they were certain, when the deeper problem was that they were wrong--and not just accidentally so, but as a direct result of their ideology, which held them to be morally superior and beyond the reach of mundane reality, be it moral, ethical, legal or even physical.

AZDem elides this rather obvious point, simply by choosing Comey as the starting point and Polestar of his narrative.  He then proceeds to the clearly mistaken claim that progressives were furious with Bush for eight long years precisely because of the same certainty that Comey identified....

After his resignation Comey, in a series of speeches, revealed that he was deeply troubled by the "certainty" with which Bush administration officials approached problems.  At a William & Mary "Charter Day" address in 2008, Comey said

A healthy recognition of the limits of our ability to understand facts, and to reason from them to good decisions, is a strength.

But too often in my experience - especially at the top of government - that recognition is derided as a weakness, as "not being solid," or as "squishiness," or "lack of conviction." Comey's Charter Day Remarks

Liberals, including especially those at Daily Kos, spent eight long years agonizing over the certainty of the right.

No doubt Bush's idiotic certainty was a considerable source of frustration for progressives, but it was assuredly not the driving cause.  It was, at best, the sizzle, not the steak.  What really got us angry was not the fact that Bush was certain, but that he was wrong--and generally not just "mistaken" wrong, but dishonestly wrong, morally wrong, fraudulently wrong--yes, he even lied--and that thousands of Americans and millions of Iraqis died as a direct result.

AZDem misdirects us away from this obvious truth by immediately following the above with a list of Bush certainties:


  Certain that homosexuality is a choice
  Certain that human life begins at conception
  Certain that abortion is murder
  Certain that American democracy is the best form of government for all
  Certain that tax cuts solve all economic problems
  Certain that regulation is evil and government is the problem
  Certain that the free market solves all problems
  Certain that European or Canadian style health care has failed
  Certain that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction

And on and on.  The certainty of those on the right made serious dialogue impossible and made good decision making difficult.

On January 20, 2009 that changed.  The United States has a President who believes good decisions come from listening to all perspectives.  A President who understands that certainty is wrong, no matter what side of the political spectrum practices it.

So, it's equally wrong to be certain that tax cuts solve all economic problems, and to be certain that they do not?

I don't think so.  Do you?

That's what AZDem just claimed.  But there's a stark asymmetry between those two professions of certainty.  The first is a dogmatic assertion of universal causality.  The second merely affirms a diversity of causation.

Although AZDem's formulation is exaggerated (restricting "free trade" and raising the minimum wage might also be blamed for some problems), the schematic relationship I've pointed out does indeed have a broad validity.  Conservatives generally do tend to think that there are a few simple causes of all our problems, and a few proven solutions. They are not just certain about things in general, they are certain that things are really quite simple, when you get down to it.  (They also tend to think that liberals are ultimately the cause of all our problems, since liberals tend to insist that things aren't just that simple.)

Liberals, on the other hand, tend to be certain that things are generally messy, that there are multiple causes for most of the social problems we encounter, and thus that we need to work hard to understand how different causes fit together, and how to get responses to those different causes to fit together into an effective policy response.

These two types of certainty are radically different from one another.  The certainty in simple, singular causes and solutions to problems readily translates into dogmatism, and fierce disagreement with anyone who proposes a different cause or a different solution.  

What's more, because of the belief in singular causes and solutions, these disagreements tend to be very light on the sort of rational argumentation that plausible might be able to change people's minds.  

In contrast, the certainty in multiple causality and systematically integrated solutions involves an inherent openness to examining a diverse range of potential causes and solutions.  To be sure, even scientists pushing their own pet models can be fiercely dogmatic in their own way.  But the forms of argumentation they are forced into, simply because of the culture they are part of, necessary have far more substance than the dogmatic quarrels that believers in simple solutions routinely fall into.  The same is true of Enlightenment culture generally, of which liberal political culture is a part.  This is not to say that dogmatism is impossible on the left--particularly when one looks beyond the border of the US.  But it is to say that the tendencies toward dogmatism differ dramatically between left and right, and they differ far more deeply than the tendencies toward certainty, precisely because left-liberal certainty generally tends to be more pluralistic and open-ended.

The Bush Attack On Enlightenment Reason

In the summer of 2002, after I had written an article in Esquire that the White House didn't like about Bush's former communications director, Karen Hughes, I had a meeting with a senior adviser to Bush. He expressed the White House's displeasure, and then he told me something that at the time I didn't fully comprehend -- but which I now believe gets to the very heart of the Bush presidency.

The aide said that guys like me were ''in what we call the reality-based community,'' which he defined as people who ''believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality.'' I nodded and murmured something about enlightenment principles and empiricism. He cut me off. ''That's not the way the world really works anymore,'' he continued. ''We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality -- judiciously, as you will -- we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors . . . and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do.''

All this, however, is only modestly better than AZDem's original argument.  It corrects a fundamental mistake, but it doesn't really get us pointed toward the truth of the matter, which is that Bush wasn't just certain, wasn't just wrong, wasn't just close-minded, but that he deliberately and systematically excluded the truth, and dismantled the means for disinterested analysis that were invaluable for discerning error and orienting toward truth.  This was clearly demonstrated in the August 2003 report, "Politics and Science in the Bush Administration", prepared by minority staff of the Government Reform Committee at the direction of Henry Waxman.

Examination of the Waxman Report helps disenthrall us from the simplistic rhetorical games that AZDem (perhaps quite inadvertently) would trap us in.  In the excerpt that follows, I've left out most of the supporting details in order to focus attention on the patterns discovered.  I don't think anyone here needs convincing about the details of what the Bush Administration did.  Rather, what's lacking in AZDem's account is conceptual clarity about how to characterize the overall pattern, which is what the following provides:

The Administration's political interference with science has led to misleading statements by the President, inaccurate responses to Congress, altered web sites, suppressed agency reports, erroneous international communications, and the gagging of scientists. The subjects involved span a broad range, but they share a common attribute: the beneficiaries of the scientific distortions are important supporters of the President, including social conservatives and powerful industry groups.

The report identifies over twenty scientific issues affected by the undermining of science....

Across this wide range of issues, the report identifies the three principal ways in which the Bush Administration has pursued its agenda: by manipulating scientific advisory committees, by distorting and suppressing scientific information, and by interfering with scientific research and analysis.

Manipulating Scientific Advisory Committees
Scientific advisory committees assure that the government hears from the nation's top experts in a particular field before creating policy in that area. The Federal Advisory Committee Act requires that such committees be "fairly balanced in terms of the points of view represented" and requires that advice and recommendations "not be inappropriately influenced by the appointing authority or by any special interest." The Bush Administration, however, has repeatedly manipulated the advisory committee process to advance its political and ideological agenda. Examples include:

  • Appointing Unqualified Persons with Industry Ties. ....
  • Appointing Unqualified Persons with Ideological Agendas. The Department of Health and Human Services nominated as chair of the FDA's Reproductive Health Drug Advisory Committee an anti-abortion activist who recommends that women read the bible for relief of premenstrual symptoms. The appointee's principal credential appears to be his opposition to the abortifacient RU-486. The medical journal Lancet described his scientific record as "sparse" and wrote that "[a]ny further right-wing incursions on expert panels' membership will cause a terminal decline in public trust in the advice of scientists."
  • Stacking Advisory Committees. ....
  • Opposing Qualified Experts. The Department of Health and Human Services rejected a widely respected expert's nomination to a grant review panel on workplace safety after it became clear that she supported rules to protect workers from musculoskeletal injuries, rules that the Bush Administration opposes....

Distorting and Suppressing Scientific Information
The public relies on government agencies for accurate scientific information, evidence-based decision making on matters of life and health, and clear explanations of complex technical matters. Under the Bush Administration, however, Administration officials have withheld or skewed important scientific information that conflicts with the Bush Administration's ideological and political agenda. Examples include:
  • Including Misleading Information in Presidential Communications. After banning research on new lines of embryonic stem cells, President Bush assured the American people that research on "more than 60" existing lines cells "could lead to breakthrough therapies and cures." In fact, only 11 cell lines are now available for research, all of which were grown with mouse cells, rendering them inappropriate for treating people.
  • Presenting Incomplete and Inaccurate Information to Congress. ....
  • Altering Web Sites. ....
  • Suppressing Agency Reports. After the White House edited a discussion of global warming in the Environmental Protection Agency's Draft Report on the Environment, agency scientists objected that the draft "no longer accurately represents scientific consensus on climate change," and EPA chose to eliminate the discussion entirely....

Interfering with Scientific Research
The federal government invests $100 billion annually in scientific research to discover new cures, protect the environment, defend the country, and support other effective policies for the health and welfare of the American people. But instead of encouraging the development and dissemination of objective scientific information, the Bush Administration has repeatedly interfered with scientific research and analysis where political and ideological interests are at stake. Examples include:
  • Scrutinizing Ongoing Research. ....
  • Obstructing Agency Analyses. The Bush Administration refused to let the Environmental Protection Agency conduct analyses on air quality proposals that differ from the President's "Clear Skies" initiative....
  • Undermining Outcome Assessment. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention used to evaluate sex education programs and identify those with scientific evidence of effectiveness. After social conservatives complained that none of the programs taught "abstinence only," the agency ended the "Programs That Work" initiative altogether.
  • Blocking Scientific Publication. ....

This report describes these and other examples of interference in the scientific process. While in a few cases the Bush Administration reversed itself or admitted error, most of these actions, policies, and appointments remain in effect.

A moment's reflection on the passage above should make it obvious that the invasion of Iraq was just one more part of this same far-reaching pattern, which in turn is a logical outgrowth of the conservative worldview, and its general antipathy toward Enlightenment rationality, as well as the common good.  From the moment it took office, the Bush Administration not only ignored those who gave it information it didn't want to hear, it actively worked to sideline them--thus the demotion of Richard Clarke, not just demoting him personally, but downgrading the office he held to reduce the salience of information about terrorist threats.  Elsewhere, it appointed unqualified ideologues, and corrupted the entire advisory process.

Just as scientists who tried to be objective about global warming were repeatedly stifled and shuttled aside, so, too, intelligence analysts who tried to be objective about Iraq's capabilities and intentions were similarly blocked from providing a coherent reality-based assessment of Iraq.  It was much less a question of whether the Bush Administration manipulated the intelligence itself--they manipulated the entire process of intelligence-gathering and evaluation, just as the Waxman Report found that they had manipulated the entire scientific advisory process.  (To take just one example, an illuminating article in Washington Monthly in xxx drew sharp parallels between Bush's Iraq policy and its development on the one hand and Bush's stem cell research policy on the other.)

With this unprecedented record of corrupting the entire fact-finding process before us, it seems downright perverse to summarize it as a problem of "certainty," a standard which, after all, would equally condemn someone who is certain that 2+2 equals 4, and someone who is certain that 2+2 equals 22.

No, AZDem's narrative will not do.  "Certainty" in an abstract sense is not the problem. The problem is a disdain for truth.  Of course we must not forget our own fallibility.  But the awareness of our own fallibility is woven into the very foundation of Enlightenment reasoning.  That foundation is not perfect, as it still inherited notions of disembodied reason from the theological and metaphysical traditions that preceded it  (see, for example, Lakoff and Johnson's Philosophy in the Flesh: The Embodied Mind and Its Challenge to Western Thought). Yet, the awareness that we may be wrong, that ideas must be rationally defensible, that no one person possesses unique understanding beyond review of anyone else, this awareness permeates Enlightenment culture, and the philosophical tradition of political liberalism that counts the Enlightenment as one of its key foundations.

While a good many conservatives are more or less accepting of this foundation as well, it is undeniable that conservative thinkers across cultures and across the centuries have repeatedly argued against critical reason. What's more, reactionaries, whose attitudes are far more characteristic of American movement conservatives today, originally defined themselves specifically as reactionaries against the Enlightenment.

One cannot simply ignore hundreds of years of history, and pretend that those on the left/liberal side of things are as prone as those on the right to systemic error from unjustified certainty.  This may be true of any one individual, of course, or even small groups or movements.   (Indeed, it was much more broadly true in the Soviet Union, China and Pol Pot's Cambodia--civilizations in which Enlightenment culture had not taken root, and in which even Communist intellectuals became prime subjects of persecution.)  But the culture of the left is permeated with values, norms, narratives, practices and institutions that strongly militate against unjustified certainty, which is why AZDem's narrative seeking to stigmatize liberals with accusations of Bush-like certainty is so wildly off the mark.  We all share individual vulnerabilities to a wide range of human failings, but the dangers posed by any particular failing are highly contingent on the social and cultural environment we find ourselves in.  Which is why alcoholism is so much more a problem in some cultures than others, and why unjustified certainty is similarly much more of a problem on the right than the left.

It's A Beautiful Day In The Niebuhrhood

Even all this, however, does not get us to the core of the problems with AZDem's formulation, though it does prepare us for getting there.  Following the last passage quoted above, AZDem continues:

President Obama's favorite theologian, Reinhold Niebuhr, famously posited that

f you and I disagree, then at least one of us is wrong, and it may be me.

That's known to historians and political scientists as "Niebuhrian humility."

And Niebuhrian humility is true liberalism.

We are very fortunate to be led by a President with Niebuhrian humility.  Conservatives may see humility as "apologizing for America," or as lack of conviction in American exceptionalism, but humility is what, ultimately, saves us.

What could possibly be wrong with that?

Simple:

(1) Humility may be necessary, but it's not sufficient. Liberalism is much more than Niebuhrian humility.  It is, in large part, a tradition of institutionalizing checks on individual and group error, whether due to certainty, fear, or any other cause.

(2) The institutionalizing of checks and balances is not just found in liberal government, but in liberal culture more generally, and in the secular practice of science in particular.  By means of such institutional checks on misplaced certainty, a much more powerful foundation for knowledge is created. Although absolute certainty is never possible in science, "good-enough certainty" (that which it would be perverse to deny) can be established on a powerful, and completely transparent foundation, without recourse to hidden truths, or individual subjective intuitions (though, of course, intuition often plays a very important role in the process of scientific discovery, it is not needed to understand the end result.)

(3) Because theology generally lacks the checks-and-balance structures of science, which are available for reality-based public policy making, Niebuhrian humility is not the best guide what ails us politically, and how to overcome it.  Where Niebuhrian humility should play a prominent role in policymaking is after systemic checks and balances have screened out factual falsehoods, not before.  Given the extremely delusional state of our politics after 8 years of Bush/Cheney, there is an overwhelming need for a great deal of restoring reality-based policy-making before  Niebuhrian humility becomes a more significant concern.

(4) Obama's insistence on superficial "open-mindedness" without respect to demonstable falsehood is a perversion of the value of Niebuhrian humility in the grand scheme of things.  At the same time, he has demonstrated a striking lack of similarly open-mindedness to the voices of many progressive forces that actually supported his election.

Thus, to take just one example, he has said that Republican lawmakers made a good point in objecting to spending on reproductive health care in the stimulus package, when in fact this validated the false reasoning that spending itself was not inherently stimulative, and almost always significantly moreso than the Republican shibboleth of tax-cutting.  More broadly, he ignored the widespread consensus of economists that (a) the stimulus needed to be significantly larger--roughly twice the size of what he asked, (b) spending is generally far more stimulative than tax cuts, and should constitute the lion's share of the package, (c) underfunding state and local government shortfalls would lead them to pass severly anti-stimulative budget cuts, thus undercutting the effectiveness of the stimulus, whereas (d) maintaining state and local budgets was one of the most fact-acting and effective ways to spend stimulus funding.  (Not only would all the money be spent within two years, but the job security ensured by such funding would tend to promote more stimulative economic behavior on the part of government workers and contractors.)

He has shown a similar pattern of favoring center-right, establishment concerns with dubious foundations over the well-founded factual arguments of his electoral supporters on a wide range of issues--the stifling of single payer advocates, for example, his delay of action on repealing "don't act, don't tell," expanding the Bush-initiated Wall Street bailout without imposing significant regulations or initiating new reforms, his continuation--and even some expansion--of many Bush/Cheney "War on Terror" policies, expanding into Afghanistan, bombing civilians, continuing stop-loss to extend military service, a range of intelligence and detention policies that Glenn Greenwald has been documenting.

This is not what Niebuhrian humility is supposed to be all about, though it certainly is a reason why "Niebuhrian humility" needs to be regarded with some suspicion: it is far too easy for it to be selectively invoked to disproportionately muffle the would-be voices in defense of the defenseless.

p.s., Obama's Got Certainty Problems, Too!

As Paul Krugman noted in his July 9 column (emphasis mine):

It's perfectly O.K. for the administration to defend what it's done so far. It's fine to have Vice President Joseph Biden touring the country, highlighting the many good things the stimulus money is doing.
It's also reasonable for administration economists to call for patience, and point out, correctly, that the stimulus was never expected to have its full impact this summer, or even this year.

But there's a difference between defending what you've done so far and being defensive. It was disturbing when President Obama walked back Mr. Biden's admission that the administration "misread" the economy, declaring that "there's nothing we would have done differently." There was a whiff of the Bush infallibility complex in that remark, a hint that the current administration might share some of its predecessor's inability to admit mistakes. And that's an attitude neither Mr. Obama nor the country can afford.

The "Powerless" Defense--And Beyond

When confronted with the wide range of issues on which Obama has disappointed, defenders either deny that Obama's performance has been disappointing, or else claim he has done as well as can be expected, given the forces arrayed against him.  However, given his incredible success in mobilizing a broad activist base, it's striking how assiduously he has avoided taking high-profile steps to mobilize outside-the-Beltway support for expanding the realm of political possibility.  His most typical response has been to join with Versailles in marginalizing popular concerns, rather than working with popular forces to put pressure on Versailles.  This was precisely what he did in helping to marginalize single-payer, excluding it from the health care debate.  Likewise, he quite honestly told the bankers on one occasion, "I'm the only one standing between you and the pitchforks." He's worked assiduously to protect Bush Administration crimes from being openly discussed, much less prosecuted, even though he's actually violating international law himself by doing so.

The range of issues on which Obama has sided with the Versailles establishment, and against any sort of real change, is so long and broad that it's become increasingly necessary to fabricate excuse narratives, such as AZDem's, the best of which will not simply defend Obama, but cast those who criticize him as the real villains.  And in the close of his diary, AZDem does not disappoint on this score:

The myth of certainty (and the absence of humility) plagues liberals as well. We are seeing it in strong doses here at Daily Kos, and elsewhere in the liberal blogs. We are certain we are right and the President's openness to other approaches and other ideas is seen as a betrayal.

A survey of Daily Kos dairies finds a plague of certainty. The President's failure to be as certain as we is "not change we can believe in," commenters say with regularity.

How close-minded and dogmatic of us to insist that single-payer--which could actually solve our health care crisis--be on the table!  How narrow-minded and positively Bush/Rovian our attacks on his meeting cozily with everyone else under the Sun--everyone, that is, with more money on their side than facts or people.

And those of us upset that we might be fighting in Afghanistan for another 20 years?  How close-minded can you possibly get?

We liberals need a huge dose of Niebuhrian humility.  The process of governing is exceptionally important. (Gene McCarthy used to say that the process was more important than the result; whether you believe that or not, the point is that without a process that recognizes the possiblity that our side is wrong, no good result is likely). Enacting or enforcing a list of liberal agenda items without counter argument would not be change we can believe in, it would be an exercise in unfounded, prideful, certainty.

Gosh, I just knew there was something wrong with freeing the slaves!  Thanks for clearing that up for me!  It was the "unfounded, prideful, certainty"!  Say, haven't the neo-Confederates been telling us as much for decades on end now?

What?  It's unfair of me to take AZDem's argument over policies today, and apply them to controversial policies of the past?  Gee, sorry!  But when you make sweeping categorical arguments based on broad, unfounded generalizations--"Certainty bad! Wheeler-dealer politics good!"--you automatically issue gilded invitations to everyone under the Sun to argue in the same sort of decontextualized way.

As Obama said during the election campaign

Liberal objectives like withdrawing from Iraq, stopping AIDS and working more closely with our allies are laudable, "but they hardly constitute a coherent national security policy." Obama, Gospel and Verse

Let's celebrate that we have an administration deeply rooted not in naive liberalism or doctrinaire conservatism, but in an open-minded, rational, realistic approach to governance. That's true liberalism, and that's change we can believe in.

Um, no.  That's not "true liberalism." It's pure Clintonian corporate triangulation.  It's what millions of poor naïve souls thought they were voting against when they chose Obama over Hillary Clinton in the primaries. There is nothing realistic about passing a stimulus bill that's half the size it needed to be to get the job done, shutting out the only approach to health care that can solve the problems we face, continuing a failed war-fighting approach to dealing with international terrorism, or failing to push for a global warming bill that actually commits us to making real progress.  That's not change--it's business-as-usual in drag as change.

"Who you going to believe?" The old question goes, "Me or your lying eyes?"

If you choose your lying eyes, AZDem is certain that the problem is you... and your lying eyes.


Here's the key folks: Obama still can be an agent of change--but only if we force him to be one.  And we're never going to force him to be an agent of change if we're bamboozled into thinking that he's better than us, and we're just like Karl Rove if we criticize him.


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Black blogosphere v. White blogosphere (0.00 / 1)
As I have pointed out before and will continue to point out until there is evidence to the contrary, the complaints from the left about Obama are coming out of the white male blogosphere(i.e. OpenLeft).

Your piece was rambling and bitter and I think that it is important for people to realize that OpenLeft does not reflect the opinion of not only the 90% of democrats that support Obama's agenda but the 95% of blacks who support his agenda.

You are the fringe 10% ROSENBERG.  


Tell That To Black Agenda Report! (4.00 / 4)
You also need to learn how to read (check a community college near you!), as this was not an attack on Obama (read the bolded text at the end much?), it was an attack on the Broderism of a certain strain of mostly white progressives characterized by the majority of commentators at DKos.

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"

[ Parent ]
"Bitter"... (0.00 / 0)
and (by implication) racist, too. That's the accusation.

Have you no decency, Obama Fans? At long last, have you no decency?

I am in earnest -- I will not equivocate -- I will not excuse -- I will not retreat a single inch -- AND I WILL BE HEARD.  


[ Parent ]
No lumping, please (4.00 / 2)
Please don't lump "Obama fans" into a single category defined by some wacko's post.  Every "ism" out there is spawned by this one human tendency.


[ Parent ]
Seriously (0.00 / 0)
There doesn't seem to be a way to express fuzzy sets in English. One has the class, one has the individual. There seems to be no way to express the idea of a class with members who are members in varying degrees members of the class.

* * *

As for lumping, anybody who paid attention in the primaries knows perfectly well who got "bitter" flung at them, and why. ISMed, I responded in kind.  

I am in earnest -- I will not equivocate -- I will not excuse -- I will not retreat a single inch -- AND I WILL BE HEARD.  


[ Parent ]
"Sumbutnotall" (4.00 / 1)
I think this came from Robert Anton Wilson, the Illuminatus Trillogy guy.  It's close enough to fuzzy-sets for jazz.

This inevitably leads to "mostbutnotall", "almostallofthemalmostallthetimebutnotyounow", "everyoneimetlasttuesday" and a virtual infinitude of other such variants.

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
I support Obama's agenda (4.00 / 6)
the one he campaigned on. He didn't campaign on ignoring well-founded majority progressive positions. He said it's time for a change from Bush and Repubs. We've seen some welcome changes.. and much frankly unchanged abhorrent positions.

[ Parent ]
Brilliantly argued (4.00 / 9)
Thanks for taking the time to put this together because it definitely needs to be out there. I think AZDem's is what one might call a "specious" argument at best.

I don't know AZDem's gender or ethnicity or sexual orientation, but that sort of Zen-like posturing smacks of someone in the majority class who, lacking awareness of the inherent privileges they enjoy, sets themselves up as being "above it all" because they're not experiencing daily the business end of racism, sexism, etc.

In defense of at least some of the folks at DKos who rec'd AZDem's diary, often people will rec diaries not that they necessarily agree with, but that they think is worth having out there for discussion purposes. I know I've done that on occasion, but definitely not on that one. That one just made my head explode.


I Might Have Rec'd It Myself, Just To Argue Against It (4.00 / 6)
If I were still actively commenting there.  It does, after all, seem like such a perfect foil.

I don't know AZDem's gender or ethnicity or sexual orientation, but that sort of Zen-like posturing smacks of someone in the majority class who, lacking awareness of the inherent privileges they enjoy, sets themselves up as being "above it all" because they're not experiencing daily the business end of racism, sexism, etc.

I couldn't agree with you more.  It absolutely reeks of unrecognized, unacknowledged privilege.

    "Yes, I know you're drowning, and these nice people over here have their boot on your head, pushing you down under the water, but that's no reason to be uncivil. There's never an excuse for bad manners."


"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"

[ Parent ]
If Paul's criticism had been put in a comment in AZDem's diary hell would have started (4.00 / 5)
Paul would have been vilified, TR rated, abused verbally and maybe threatened, and watched, stalked after that to maybe force automatic banning in the future. Because we know Paul would not have taken it lying down, would have reasoned logically why they were not considering x,y, or z.

People at dkos often rec their "leaders" automatically to pile up recs. This gives them "mojo" when they go hunting in a pack against someone like Paul who disrupts their "certainlty from the left".

Finally we get a serious reasoned critique from someone about dkos's inferior intellectual arguments that never get challenged t their home site.

The Rude Pundit hit kos this week. In the balls as he is like to do.

We on the left must, I repeat must, keep pushing Obama. He is sensitive to criticism. He is taking us for granted. We must show him he cannot. And we must push for all the progressives in congress we can push for.  Those cheap ads Stoller(?) showed us how to do must become part of our strategy. A progressive congress group will push him too.

And remember Eleanor was far more progressive than FDR. And she left him notes on his bedside table every night about things he must attend to. She was his hair shirt. No wonder he ran to Lucy's arms.


[ Parent ]
do you have a link (0.00 / 0)
on rude pundit?

[ Parent ]
Yep 7-10-09 (0.00 / 0)
http://rudepundit.blogspot.com/  I haven't done a search at kos for PaulRosenberg as I don't know if he posted there, if he did did he use PR or a different ID? But I bet he got a lot of static and doesn't go there anymore.

[ Parent ]
Paul Rosenberg's DKos page (4.00 / 1)
http://www.dailykos.com/user/u...
User name: Paul Rosenberg

[ Parent ]
Thanks. Here are links to his last comments (0.00 / 0)
I didn't go more than one page as he was getting stupid attacks and giving logical defense answers to people who don't know how to read or listen. Just what I thought. He doesn't post there much at all after his initial forays where he finds out their mentality.

http://tinyurl.com/lou39q


[ Parent ]
Outstanding deconstruction (4.00 / 5)
There's precious little I can take issue with here, but I will slap something on in addition. When I read that diary, my first instinct was to laugh at it's incoherency bordering on GOP-style mythmaking. For one who claims abhorrence of certainty, he/she is very much certain in his/her critique of liberalism, even though the critique itself is immune to any empirical or logical standards.

But in looking over the passages you cite once more, it all strikes me as very slimy, to use the technical vernacular. The only real point to that post, as best as I can make out, is to further muddy the discourse by encouraging people to doubt their own positions. At the risk of being overly reductivist, the real philosophical point AZDem seems to be making is, "Don't sweat the details or the agenda, just trust Dear Leader."

So what comes to my mind here is Lasswell and Rumor Control. It seems possible, though not certainly so yet, that this poster is a propagandist/concern troll. We're probably going to see a lot more of this, as progressives dig in ever further in opposition to Obama's policies.

Over at FDL, yesterday, a certain Barbara posted something similar, though vastly more insipid.

http://seminal.firedoglake.com...

There's a fine line that separates civil discourse and constructive criticism from sniping and undermining. I'd be hard pressed to map that, but I know it when I see it. My tolerance for poo-flinging is reaching an unprecedented low-mark.

Here's my current working theory about all of this. We spent eight years building up a wildly outspoken snark machine concerning the egregious misdeeds of GWB and company. We had to, went the reasoning, because the media were not doing their job. Most weren't. Sometimes, we snarked reflexively. As time passed, snark became the default and civil discourse fell by the wayside. And yes, along with sticks and stones, words do immeasurable harm sometimes.

In other words, criticizing Obama is "unhelpful," "unconstructive" and deleterious to civil discourse. It is clearly wrong to criticize POTUS. It was okay then, but it's not now.

Then today, Jason Rosenbaum follows up that post with one of his own.

http://seminal.firedoglake.com...

It seems to me, and some other commenters, that cutting down Obama just for the hell of it isn't necessarily constructive. Being right isn't quite the end it was during the Bush years. Maybe, we have to be more surgical, targeting Rahm, as Jane Hamsher suggests, or Members of Congress. No matter what we do, it's a fine line. And "we" won't necessarily be all in sync with the strategery, if we ever are or were.

So we're starting to see posters who are suggesting it's not cool to criticize POTUS. They are all evading the fact that his policy decisions are rightfully pissing off progressives. But we're supposed to hold our tongues out of team spirit or something.

That's rumor control. Then again, maybe I'm reading too much into this and these are simply non-aligned sycophants who are all on the same plane of hating to see POTUS criticized for any reason whatsoever.

I can't be certain!

"In our country, the lie has become not just a moral category but a pillar of the State" -- Alexander Solzhenitsyn


Or, backlash control (4.00 / 2)
Periodically someone comes to dKos to advise pulling back from criticism. Dean, Durbin, and Kerry some to mind instantly. They advised being "pragmatic" or "patient" and I assume the visits are someone's ongoing communications plan task.

Time is ripe for a visit. In anticipation of a health care reform resolution short of hopes in the advocacy blogospheric troops, it's logical to see attempts at quelling a blogospheric backlash just as we prepare for an insurance industry backlash.

AZDem's voice was for me that of a child at the night time  window sill, all wishing and hoping on a star...sure that earnestness is all it takes. There are legions of them who voted for the first time this election and we mix not as progressives or even as Democrats but as Obama supporters.      


[ Parent ]
Rumor control IS backlash control (0.00 / 0)
Harold Lasswell did some pretty impressive work on propaganda technique back in the '20s.  Rumor Control was the formative name of a technique of controlling dissent through propaganda in a sub rosa fashion.

See this podcast from Jeffrey Graham, as it's as good as any place to start:

http://www.wherethetruthlies.o...

FDR's administration used Rumor Control with such campaigns as "Loose Lips Sink Ships." The idea is to get people to censor themselves and limit discussion. It can be rather subtle.

I"m content to await the appearance of a distinct pattern to take my own conjecture seriously. But I do think it's worth noting.

"In our country, the lie has become not just a moral category but a pillar of the State" -- Alexander Solzhenitsyn


[ Parent ]
You Make Some Good Points Here, But Just Don't Forget (0.00 / 0)
"never ascribe to evil that which can equally well be explained by stupidity."

Now, when evil is clearly a better explanation, I say go for it with utmost gusto.

But in the case of AZDem's diary, and most of the rest of this, it's, well, not stupidity so much as (a) intellectual laziness, (b) desire for comfort (a soothing narrative, "Father Knows Best"), and (c) neatness (no messy empirical details!).

Of course, traditional Christian theology teaches that laziness (aka sloth) is a sin, but I'm with the Church of the SubGenius on the issue of slack.  I'm going to call them on their bad thinking, but I'm not going to call them bad people.

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
Hey! Don't forget Hannah Arendt: Evil is banal (4.00 / 1)
And stupid could be a sort of less precise synonym for banal.

[ Parent ]
Love Hannah (4.00 / 1)
But she actually hated it when people said "evil is banal."  She said Eichmann was banal.  And that lots of evil was done because of people by him.  But not that all evil was banal.  I'm just saying . . . .

--Aaron Schutz (Core Dilemmas of Community Organizing)

[ Parent ]
Yes, CofSG is some classic stuff. (4.00 / 1)
And yes, I prefer your take (for the moment) to mine. Any time I start entertaining such lines of thinking, I tend to step back and hope I'm wrong and I very well may be (as is my hope).

The proof will be if we start seeing a discernible pattern and it's too soon to see that yet. If we do see a pattern, then I'll take my own conjecture more seriously, but I'm content to wait for it, if only to preserve what little remains of my psychic peace (I jest... kind of).

But I've just been over at FDL arguing with some of these folks and I'm disheartened at their lack of ability to make a factual claim as to "positive changes" they somehow manage to see coming from the WH. They say they see good stuff, I point out several factual items of BAD STUFF and they come back with, "Dude, yer like being soooo negative, man." Oy vey.

I mean, if harping about "Preventive Detention" is harshing on someone's bliss, then I have to wonder if Rod Serling hasn't reincarnated into something much more powerful... and awesome.

"In our country, the lie has become not just a moral category but a pillar of the State" -- Alexander Solzhenitsyn


[ Parent ]
Niebuhrian Humility (4.00 / 5)
Paul, neither you nor AZDem understand Niebuhr's perspective very well. "Niebuhrian humility" is not simply the understanding that we may be wrong, but the understanding that though we intend to do good, our actions will inevitably result in evil. That was not an excuse for inaction, according to Niebuhr, but the realistic acceptance that our perspectives and ability to understand the right path was inevitably flawed, often in ways that eluded conscious recognition.

It's a moral claim, in other words, not so much a claim about our ideation. Importantly, though, there a specific critique of ideology here. Niebuhrian humility develops out of his involvement - and later distancing from - unions and the pacifist movement. What he came to realize as his thinking developed was that it was far easier to act morally individually than as the representative of a group. Individuals are much freer to act against their own interests, and their perspectives can shift much more easily, than can groups.

For Niebuhr, the conclusion this led to was that no ideology could be complete unto itself. In a social setting, this meant that all ideologies were vital, though not necessarily equal. Furthermore, the theological claim was that no one ideology could claim to represent God's will - that was his critique of the positivism of the Social Gospel movement.

Niebuhr's critique of pure ideology is an explicit basis for the bipartisanship of the Village insiders (just ask David Brooks if you don't believe me) and Obama's "cabinet of rivals." The thinking is that without all ideologies represented, good policy cannot be complete.

Where this all breaks down is that the Villagers are unable to understand the false equivalence they give to right and left and they are unable to understand that not all the ideas presented to them are as liberal or conservative as they purport to be. They're parochial, in other words, and we knew that. But they also believe themselves to be fairly representing all perspectives when they are in fact not. They try to set themselves up as dispassionate umpires rising above the partisan fray in the spirit of Niebuhrian humility, when Niebuhr himself would tell them that they were just as prone to error as anyone else.

Whew. We're not quite done yet.

Theology does have checks and balances. If you've read Niebuhr, you'll know that he's really more about philosophical analysis than straight-up theological assertions. So to the extent that his insight is productive, it ought to be applied, the same as any philosophy.

Beyond that, however, theology answers first to consistency with scripture and secondly to the community that interprets it. To give just a very brief example, there is a phrase in Greek commonly used in the New Testament that might be translated "the faith of Jesus Christ" or "faith in Jesus Christ." Catholics take the first option, Baptists take the second. Theology developed from either standpoint has to match the interpretation of scripture, and has to fit the needs of the community to which it is directed. A Baptist who argues that scripture says it's "faith in Jesus" that saves but then proceeds to write a long treatise on how Jesus' faithful actions in the eucharist are what save us is bound for trouble, in other words.

Is that scientific certainty? No, of course not. Rather, it's a descriptive consistency that matches the practices and aspirations of the community. In faith, that's as close as you get.

Visit Street Prophets to talk about faith + politics!


Lovely analysis. Thanks. (4.00 / 1)
Very Hindu that.

[ Parent ]
Three Thoughts (4.00 / 2)
First, pre-thought, thanks for posting here.

(1) Although I wasn't trying to describe Niebuhr's thought (and thus, would be inclined to object to you saying that I don't understand him), I do appreciate the value of adding this, as you're certainly correct that he's systematically mis-used by the Broderites of this world.

(2) I see that I was unclear enough in what I said about checks and balances.  It's not that Niebuhr--as well as some other theologians--doesn't value checks and balances, and incorporate them into his thinking.  It's a question of institutionalizing into basic practice, which is what science does via a variety of means.  There may be schools of theology, as well as spiritual discipline, that institutionalize checks and balances, but such institutionalization does not apply to theology or spirituality across the board, and that is what I was referring to.

(3) We've had various other discussions here about individualist vs social solidarity perspectives, which have only served to reinforce my conviction that there's an irreducible element of privilege in the individualist perspective.  While I believe I'm more understanding of Niebuhr's thought than you supposed, I'm certainly far from being an expert, so I'd like to know if he confronted this in his thinking.

I believe it's clear that Martin Luther King, who was deeply influenced by Niebuhr, was forced to confront this issue in various, not-so-abstract ways.  What about Niebuhr himself?

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
My pleasure to be here. (4.00 / 1)
Responding in order:

1. Sorry if I implied that you don't understand Reinie overall. You're certainly too conversant in the history of ideas to be ignorant of his work. What I meant to say was that neither you nor AZDem presented a very good picture of his ideas on humility. I can see how it was a side point in a long argument, so no big deal, just wanted to add my two cents.


2. I went back and re-read your section on checks and balances, and it's clearer to me the second time. As I understand it, you would prioritize empirical data over moral caution in the current situation. I can see how you would come to that conclusion as you're attacking the false equivalences that are thrust upon us. First you decide what's true and what's horse hockey, then you entertain an appropriate level of self-doubt. That's fair enough. I would only reply that Niebuhr's work is the rough theological equivalent of Heisenberg's principle of uncertainty. We can't be sure that we have it right, even empirically, and Niebuhr was in fact quite critical of scientific or technical hubris. For him, it wasn't possible to solve our way out of the world's problems through better science or more scientific government. That's the neo-orthodox piece of his argument, over and against the liberalism that led us into World War I.


3. I would have to review my notes on Niebuhr to give you an exact answer, but I believe he dealt with the individual/social solidarity question only glancingly in The Nature and Destiny of Man. After that, his thought ran more to more theoretical concerns and to developing humility and/or realism in specific contexts such as foreign policy. And unfortunately, he had a stroke in the early 60's that slowed him down just as such critiques were coming to the fore. All of which is to say, no, I don't think he dealt with it to any great extent, though The Children of Light, the Children of Darkness might be taken as an extended argument against the social solidarity argument.

I can tell you that his failure to deal with the problem of privilege is one of the enduring arguments against him. Some feminist theologians can't stand him for that reason, and liberation theology started in large part as a response to neo-Orthodoxy, with the general sentiment being "we can't afford to wait until we're right." I've always found those arguments (as conceived against Niebuhr) to be a bit misguided, but that's a whole 'nother can of worms, and we're far out in the weeds as it is.

One more thing to add, because I always add it: Niebuhr came out of the same religious tradition that I do. In fact, he attended Elmhurst College and Eden Seminary, just like my father and grandfather. I broke the mold by going to Candler School of Theology in Atlanta...where I wound up studying Niebuhr.

Visit Street Prophets to talk about faith + politics!


[ Parent ]
Thanks, Much Appreciated (4.00 / 1)
(1) And you're quite right.  I did slight dealing directly with Niebuhr as (a) he was merely a token in the argument, and (b) though I knew enough to say more, I didn't meet my standard of knowing a good deal more than what I would have wanted to say.  Which makes me even more appreciative of what you added.

(2) Regarding the foundations of scientific knowledge, and hubris derived therefrom, I think that Niebuhr would be correct vis-a-vis the whole positivist tradition, but that perspective is anathema to me, as I am a Jamesian pragmatist through and through, which means always recognizing that science is a human activity.

But what we're talking about in the real world here is the sort of screening that Congress used to get from the Office of Technology Assessment before Gingrich axed it in 1995.  From my POV, putting that sort of evaluative process in place is an act of humility, so it's not so much a trade-off as a sequencing.  First, humility is demonstrated in submitting everyone's good ideas to objective scrutiny to best degree possible at the time.  After that, we're left dealing with a set of alternatives that we now have some common framework for dealing with.  Is it the only framework to be used in policy discussion? No, of course not.  But it provides one common framework, and as such helps model for us the value of arguing toward agreement, rather than against agreement.

Finally, I would agree with Niebuhr that technology cannot solve our moral problems for us.  But it certainly can alleviate a good deal of needless human suffering, which we often mistakenly attribute to moral problems.  So long as we keep open-minded about what we're about, and respect the pluralism of human activities (in this instance, moral problems can't be entirely reduced to scientific ones, nor the other way around), we will be able to work through our inevitable mistakes, rather than wallowing in them self-righteously forever.

(3) Again, much appreciated.

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
Thoroughly enjoyed this diary (4.00 / 1)
I wondered as I read the dailykos diary if the author truly believed what they were writing because it seemed to me it was an obvious attempt to grasp at any straw that could stop or find a defense of anymore critical analysis of Obama's actions thus far.

It comes across as the last refuge of a fervent supporter to those that are able, with the daily statements and actions  to reach certain conclusions; just a blatant demand couched in lofty terms to stop being so critical, and analytical because we must be post-critical, post-analytical.....can you tell I've had it with the bs?

Thank you for calling them on their false assumptions and reasonings


Great diary and comments (esp. Pastor Dan) (4.00 / 2)
I should have read this before responding to Brodier (not that it would have changed what I said).

Fav. quote from Neibuhr (of course it would be this one)

The very social scientists who are so anxious to offer our generation counsels of salvation and are so disappointed that an ignorant and slothful people are so slow to accept their wisdom, betray middle-class prejudices in almost everything they write.
--Reinhold Neibuhr, 1932, p. xiv

Don't know him well beyond that book and biogs etc., esp. compared to paul and PDan  Dwarfs on the shoulders of giants and all that.  

Always felt like Niebuhr could be a bit of a pit bull, humility or no.  

--Aaron Schutz (Core Dilemmas of Community Organizing)


I am already sick and tired of this "make him do" it (0.00 / 0)
meme.  So, if we fail "make him do" it then what is he going to do? Follow a DLC-type agenda or conservative agenda?  If we have to "make him do" something - I am sorry that is not leadership and it is certainly not something that I supported when I volunteered, contributed and voted for him.

It is not enough in the current economic situation to say well at least we accomplished something.  Half-ass solutions are not going to help and actually make thing worse politically and economically in the future.  The current economic situation requires bold action but in my opinion the Obama Administration actions have not matched the magnitude of the problems.

RebelCapitalist - Financial Information for the Rest of Us.


So What's Your Alternative? (4.00 / 2)
Personally, I never thought Obama was the leader we needed now.  The best things going for him were (a) his relative lack of pre-commitments (the downside liability of Clinton's legitimate claim to more experience) and (b) the vitality of the movement that drew inspiration from him.

While it was always impossible to say ahead of time, there was at least potentially a parallel with JFK, who inspired similar idealistic hope in 1960, which in turn helped contribute to a much broader restless idealism for a much more fundamental change than anything Kennedy himself envisioned.

Now, much of what happened in the 60s had nothing to do with pressuring JFK or LBJ after him.  But some of it certainly did--particularly the major civil rights legislation (the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and the Voting Rights Act of 1965, both of which were absolutely crucial).  So I'm not saying we should only "make him do it", I'm merely saying that's an entirely expectable and necessary part of the overall dynamic.

Broadly speaking, the people are always more progressive than the political leadership.  There are a few shining moments when individual actions or speeches by leaders shine through as seeming exceptions--Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation and his Second Inaugural come to mind, LBJ saying "We Shall Overcome," affirming the civil rights movement's goals as America's goals--but these are always exceptions that prove the rule, the fruition of generations of anonymous toil in the trenches.

So what I want to know from you is (a) what's so different now? and/or (b) what else would you have us do?

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
During the campaign we heard a lot about creating (4.00 / 2)
a "movement". A movement for change.  Well, for the most part the "movement" is there but the leadership is not.  Stimulus plan, health care reform, climate change, financial reform - all examples where the "movement" would support the change and help increase support but the leadership was not there.

You may be right about Obama not being the leader we need but he did create a "movement" but has failed to follow through with it.  Sure, there has to be compromises but we start off already at a compromised position.

As for what else to do, I can only speak for myself as a progressive:  I will certainly be less likely to support the Democratic Party in the future because in my opinion a party that abandons its base support is doomed to failure.  Maybe, a progressive movement should be more independent of party politics and focus on a "grass roots" movement absent any party apparatus.  Maybe, a progressive movement should be more issues based.

RebelCapitalist - Financial Information for the Rest of Us.


[ Parent ]
Well, In Part (0.00 / 0)
That's why I argued repeatedly that Obama had not created a movement.  He created a movement-like campaign, but that's not all that unprecedented.  Jesse Jackson did the same in 1984 and 1988, for example.  As did Pat Robertson in 1988 and Pat Buchanan in 1992 on the other side, and Ross Perot in 1992 somewhere careening all over the road in 1992.

But this time out, Obama had a huge tailwind at his back.  He didn't have to do anything like the amount of work for the payback he got that the others I mentioned did.  And that largely not because he of anything Obama did.  It was a combination of historical and technological forces, a multiple wave that he was perfectly positioned to catch, nothing more, nothing less.

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
Well you are right in line with Chomsky on that thinking (0.00 / 0)
so I see you keep good company.

[ Parent ]
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