Exposing Colorblind Racism Right Here At Open Left.

by: Paul Rosenberg

Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 18:30


Last weekend, in the discussion of my diary "More Than Gatesgate", a couple of troubling response patterns emerged.  One was quite clearly an example of what's come to be known as "colorblind racism," as described in my previous diary, the other was something more subtle, the use of a legitimate caution about blindness to class privilege to attempt to sabotage a straightforward discussion about race, rather than enrich it.  While we still have plain old-fashioned racists like Jeff Sessions walking around, by far the biggest problem we face in race relations lies with these sorts of attitudes, which in turn allow the racism of a Sessions, a Limbaugh, a Buchanan or a Beck to continue relatively unquestioned.  It's for that reason that I want to devote some serious attention to what went on in that diary discussion.

Inevitably, the people who participated may feel picked upon-particularly since they seemed to have arrived with a victim mentality already intact (the former much more visibly than the later).  But, then, heat, kitchen, yadda-yadda-yadda.  It's precisely by dealing with what's right in front of us that we learn how to deal with what's right in front of us.

Before I begin with the analysis, I want to float a few proverbs or sayings to help guide our way:  

(1) A struck pig squeals.
(2) What you see depends on where you stand.
(3) There are none so blind as those who will not see.
(4) A truth that's told with bad intent beats any lie you can invent. (William Blake)

Okay now, let's begin... on the flip.

Paul Rosenberg :: Exposing Colorblind Racism Right Here At Open Left.
A First Colorblind Racist Miniature: So What?

Our first protagonist is ccarollo, who (we will see) exhibits classic characteristics of colorblind racism--minimalization (not denial) of persisting racism, and an individualist focus that comes directly out of the framework of classical liberalism.  In particular, we see a denial or discounting of structural racism, while insisting on the primacy of individuals and specific incidents, over-emphasis on supposed white victimization, and an insistence on specific evidence of racism in a given situation without acknowledging that such evidence might be visible to some and invisible to others because of racialized cultural factors.  Here's the first interchange ccarollo participates in:

When an affluent white man is arrested for breaking into his own home
by a black police man, let me know.

by: Paul Goodman @ Sat Jul 25, 2009 at 20:52


    but
    an affluent black man wasn't arrested for breaking into his own home in this case, either.

    I realize it's fun to say that, but it's simply not true, and is intentionally inflammatory.

    by: ccarollo @ Sat Jul 25, 2009 at 21:12
      Okay then.
      When a white Harvard professor is arrested for mouthing off at a policeman, let ME know.

      It doesn't even have to be by a black policeman, seriously.

      by: Sadie Baker @ Sun Jul 26, 2009 at 19:33

Clearly most folks didn't think ccarollo's first offering was worth responding to.  It was an odd remark--clearly true in one sense (Gates was arrested for mouthing off on his own property, not for breaking in), but as Sadie finally pointed out the next day, so what?

Paul's description may have been technically incorrect, but it was substantively true. If Gates had not broken into his own house, and if he had not been black, then he would not have been arrested. Period. It's nit-picking at best to dispute him like this, but ccarollo presents this as grave matter.  And calling Paul's description "intentionally inflammatory" assumes that arresting Gates in itself was not inflammatory.  

Crying "What Racism?" The Stuck Pig Syndrome

Personally, I chose to skip that first remark, and respond to the second one instead, because it provided a much better target.  What happened with Gates was clearly part of a much broader pattern that black Americans are all too familiar with, and that white Americans routinely ignore.  My diary was specifically focused on this fact, in particular on the pattern of harassment that black Americans experience at Harvard.  But it also pointed out that we don't know for certain that Gates was correct.  In my diary, as one of four main points, I wrote:

But, third, that momentary honesty doesn't really accomplish anything, beyond giving us a rush.  That's why I--someone who's generally infuriated by the walk-back routine--am actually quite pleased with Obama's followup.  The fact is, Gates may very well have been wrong about the officer--but only because the most widespread problem we face today is "Racism Without Racists" (aka "colorblind racism"--see the book by the same name by Eduardo Bonilla-Silva here.), the persistence of subconscious racial attitudes that have a pervasive, pernicious impact on black, Latino and other minorities' lives, without any conscious animosity on the part of whites who harbor such attitudes.  And anything that helps us make some headway in sorting through the deceptive intricacies of colorblind racism is a good thing.

Now, look how completely ccarollo ignores what I wrote. Here's the first paragraph of his initial response to my diary:

racism?  really?

Can you point to anything that the officer did that was in any way racist?  Because I can't.  If I put myself in the exact same situation -- as a typical white guy -- and I got short and confrontational with a cop like that, I wouldn't at all be surprised to find myself arrested, or at the very least plopped in the back a squad car to cool off.

So, I write that "Gates may very well have been wrong about the officer" (being racist), and ccarollo castigates me for even mentioning racism.  Someone has a reading comprehension problem.

Colorblind Racism On The Attack

Or maybe not.  Maybe it's an agenda:

That's the problem with "colorblind racism" -- it's easy to assume it exists everywhere and plays into every slight, regardless of whether it actually played a role or not. Maybe race was an issue in this case. Maybe it wasn't. But harping on race, immediately, and assuming that the cop -- in some small way at least -- is racist, is insulting, dangerous, and ultimately harmful to race relations as a whole.

So, it's wrong to point out the persistence of typically unconscious colorblind racism--not because it doesn't exist, but because doing so is "harping on race" which in turn is "insulting, dangerous, and ultimately harmful to race relations as a whole."

A very interesting sort of logic: telling the truth about race could make white people angry, so best to keep quiet about it.  Seems like I've heard that before... for about the last 350 years.  This illustrates the underlying persistence of certain aspects of racist ideology from one configuration to another, however much the main ideological content might vary.

It's exactly this kind of thing that makes white people terrified about talking honestly about race.  Because they know that any misstep, even honest ones, even ones where there's no racial bias at all, will be seen as proof of racism.

This is mindboggling claim, when you stop to think about.  White people terrified about talking honestly about race?  I know they generally don't like to.  But that's mostly because it means fessing up to the fact that someone else is getting a raw deal.  That hardly equates to being terrified.  In fact, while many white people feel uncomfortable with the prospect of talking about race, they are actually relieved once they've broken the ice.  What's going on here may seem very subtle, but it's crucially important.  Those who are terrified as ccarollo claims do not speak for all white people, as they imagine.  They only think they are typical of white people in general.  But they are actually significantly more anxious than most white people are--at least whites who aren't conservatives. Indeed, what they are most likely terrified of is losing the imaginary moral high ground of having white skin--and being "above race."

Look, I've been anti-racist all my life.  I was very fortunate, because my parents raised me that way.  It didn't require any great moral act on my part.  I had a black friend when I was too young to even know he was black.  But I'm still white, and so it's inevitable that from time to time I'll get falsely accused of racism.  And, of course, growing up in a racist society, I undoubtedly do have traces of racist attitudes that I'm unaware of. So when I have been accused of racism, my responses have varied with the situation, but I've never been terrified, and never felt that it hurt me.  Maybe my feelings were bruised a bit, but I am not my feelings.  I've always known that however uncomfortable I happened to feel in that moment, it was just a taste of what most black folks live with most of their lives.  And since it would soon be over for me, it was really no big deal so far as trauma to my psyche might be concerned.  There was simply no comparison to what black folks experience as a result of racism.

So, why do I see possibly false accusations of racism as no big deal, while ccarollo considers them terrifying? Or "insulting, dangerous, and ultimately harmful to race relations as a whole"?

I refer you to #s 1-3 above:

(1) A struck pig squeals.
(2) What you see depends on where you stand.
(3) There are none so blind as those who will not see.

We'd All Be Better Off If White Folks Could Just Be Left Alone

Finally, ccarollo concludes:

We'd all be better off if we didn't assume that racism played a part of every single unfortunate thing that happened to black people. We shouldn't be blind to the advantages that white people have, but a continuous culture of victimhood betters no one.

In one sense, Sadie Baker had the perfect response:

When you say "we all would be better off"

don't you mean "people like me would be better off?" Because that's the problem, isn't it?

You seem to misunderstand what racism is. It's not a matter of personal animus, but a systematic imbalance of power.

But it was almost too obvious (though not to ccarollo, obviously).  And besides, there was so much more here that was highly dubious, to it mildly.  This is presented as if it were a perfectly sane, perfectly balanced remark.  But who in the world actually does "assume that racism played a part of every single unfortunate thing that happened to black people"?  No one I've ever met, that's for damn sure.  That's a ridiculous mischaracterization of what people like me are saying--although we are saying that the impact of race-based harms is far more pervasive than most white folks (and even many blacks) realize.

Don't believe me?  Just look at the diary I posted about the South LA Health Scorecard.  South LA is predominantly black and Latino, and the Health Scorecard reveals a whole plethora of different sorts of factors that contribute to worse health outcomes for those communities of color.  But at the same time, life is full of countless unfortunate incidents, from scraped knees to broken hearts that have nothing to do with race.

It is, in fact, a wildly narcissistic trait for white people to think that black folks--any black folks--spend all their time thinking about them.  The reality is just the opposite.  Poll after poll have shown that black people tend to substantially underestimate the amount of discrimination they suffer, whether the pollsters have realized it or not.

Now, of course, I didn't say all that in response to ccarollo's comment.  I didn't have the time.  But those are the sorts of thoughts that flashed through my mind.  And not having the time, but being overwhelmed by the magnitude of wrongheadedness, I fell back on two old friends: hard data and snark.  I replied:

You're Right

And the fact that blacks were arrested at almost 8 times the rate of whites for smoking marijuana in NYC in 2006:

Even though whites were bigger users:

Has no impact whatsoever on any individual arrest!

Look ma!  No racism!

How convenient!

What did not ensue was any discussion of the data I presented--evidence that tens of thousands of blacks had suffered a good deal more than Professor Gates on account of race. Ccarollo simply ignored that data as if it had never been presented.  Such is the power of colorblind racism.  Its not just color that it's blind to, but everything else that might point to color as an enduring social concern.

Systematic Misunderstanding

Instead, what ensued from here on can be summarized thus:

(1) Ccarollo:  You're not listening to a thing I said!

(2) Paul: No. You're not listening to a thing I said!

(3) Repeat.

Well, pretty much, anyways.  The point is, individualism and isolated incidents are defining elements of how colorblind racism construes the world.  If you cut the world up that way, then it's very hard to see much evidence of racism, because we tend to think of "evidence of racism" in terms of the KKK, or separate drinking fountains--that is, in terms of the now-vanished racist elements of a previous era.  In much the same way, a new racism took shape after the Civil War that didn't involve slavery, and so there were many who simply assumed that racism had been done away with, and any problems that blacks encountered were problems of their own making... or their innate inferiority.  Nothing racist in that, right?

But if you cut the world up a different way, in terms of institutions, and statistical analyses of patterns of how people are treated, then a very different picture emerges.  Then you see that racism still persists and has very pervasive impacts. Then you see colorblind racism in the world, rather than seeing the world through colorblind racist glasses.

It's only natural that two different people adopting these two ways of seeing the world would talk past one another.  The difference was, (1) I was well aware of this situation, and said so, and (2) I do not regard each of these views as equally valid.  A more systemic, more comprehensive view of the world reflects a higher level of cognitive development, which enables a more accurate view of the world.  Seeing things in terms of isolated incidents and individuals reflects a level of cognitive organization that is objectively less valid than seeing things in terms of patterns of incidents and systems of social relations.

Of course each situation is unique, and cannot just be taken as nothing more than the automatic product of a larger whole.  But neither can a unique situation be understood wholly apart from the larger whole, either.

Ccarollo's repeated insistence that I was the one who wasn't listening was completely understandable, coming from someone so deeply embedded in that worldview.  But that doesn't make it true.  For all the novelty or originally or whatever that was imagined to exist in the arguments presented, Ccarollo was simply repeating standard script from the colorblind racism handbook--script that I had not only heard myself, but that others, such as Eduardo Bonilla-Silva, have analyzed over a period of years.

Situationism

But one need not simply rely on the framework of colorblind racism to understand what's going on here.  There is a more general approach one can take, which is to critique Ccarollo's obsessive emphasis on individual attitudes from a perspective known as situationism.  Underlying Ccarollo's entire argument is the assumption that if there was no racist intent, there was no racism.  This is what the demand for "proof" of racism is all about--prove there was racist intent.  But others--most notably Sadie Baker--repeatedly pointed out that racism is not solely, or even primarily a matter of individual intent.  It is systemic, institutional, and on the individual level, today at least, it is largely unconscious, embedded in perceptual biases and assumptions that most people are not even aware that they have.

This has all been covered specifically in my previous diary.  But there is a more generalized truth here that applies to more than just race. As the Situationist blog explains, situationism sees this as general condition applying to social/cognitive phenomena across the board:

About Situationism

Situationism is premised on the social scientific insight that the naïve psychology--that is, the highly simplified, affirming, and widely held model for understanding human thinking and behavior--on which our laws and institutions are based is largely wrong. Situationists (including critical realists, behavioral realists, and related neo-realists) seek first to establish a view of the human animal that is as realistic as possible before turning to legal theory or policy.  To do so, situationists rely on the insights of scientific disciplines devoted to understanding how humans make sense of their world--including social psychology, social cognition, cognitive neuroscience, and related disciplines--and the practices of institutions devoted to understanding, predicting, and influencing people's conduct--particularly market practices.  Jon Hanson & David Yosifon, The Situation: An Introduction to the Situational Character, Critical Realism, Power Economics, and Deep Capture, 152 U. Pa. L. Rev. 129, 149-77 (2003).

Situationism  has been applied to such topics as power economics, natural disasters, obesity, commerical speech and junk-food advertising, Supreme Court dynamics, racial injustice, affirmative action, race and rape, employment discrimination, employee adherence to workplace rules, legitimization of war, inside counsel, corporate law, and player autonomy in the National Basketball Association, among other topics.

In terms of Kegan's schema of cognitive development , schools of psychology and other social sciences that focus on individual traits take as their basic explanatory phenomena are thereby focused on the underlying structure of Level Two: Durable Categories.  Of course, this does not necessarily mean they are limited to Level Two thinking, but many people who latch onto simplistic interpretations of findings from these schools are so limited. In contrast, situationists take for granted Level Three situations as explaining behavior directly, and take for granted Level Four comparisons of different Level Three situations as theoretical constructs.    The comparison of different theoretical constructs can readily lead situationists into Level Five cognition as well.

Kegan's book In Over Our Heads: The Mental Demands of Modern Life  uses a series of vignettes to illustrate a repeated pattern of misunderstanding between people functioning at different levels.  The general nature of situationist social/cognitive science and policy analysis as opposed to trait-based counterparts is clearly prone to such misunderstandings, over and above those already discussed.  Although those functioning at higher levels are just as prone to such misunderstandings as those functioning at lower levels, they are better equipped to understand their confusion once it is explained to them, because a higher level takes the context of the next lower level as its object--as something it can consciously examine and analyze.  In short, those at a higher level can comprehend the situation of those at a lower level, while the reverse is generally not true.

Of course, merely having the capacity to function at a higher cognitive level does not ensure that one does so.  Pressures for social conformity can clearly limit people who are abstractly capable of independent critical thought to deploying that capability so selectively that it serves instead to reinforce, rather than critically question, socially shared assumptions.  This was vividly illustrated by the failure of the Versailles press to see the humor in Stephen Colbert's critical take on their record of conformity and subservience to executive power.

Protagonist #2: A Truth That's Told With Bad Intent

The awareness of such limitations is much more general than knowledge about mechanisms described above.  The poor and ill-educated have always been sharply aware of many things not seen by their affluent, well-educated "betters."  And this was a point that our second protagonist, jar137, might have wanted to make.  It's certainly true, as this comment points out that class and race cannot be disentabled, and that

Although there clearly are advantages to being white in America, it is not shared to the same degree.

But this point is put across in a way that seems almost entirely aimed at derailing precisely the sort of tough-minded analysis that's needed to make progress, and what it offers up instead is blameshifting onto stereotypical "limousine liberals" (is that you, David Brooks?), which also involves an individualist focus (they should all do individual penance), rather than advancing a call for collective political action:

How about if

privileged (ie, in the socio-economic sense), liberal white people start acknowledging the role they play in the perpetuation of racism in America.  When you grow up in de facto segregated, "nice" communities and attend almost exclusively white schools, and mingle with primarily only with other privileged white people, you are perpetuating racism through your classism.  I have watched wonderful minority and integrated neighborhoods in NY become gentrified by white privileged people who have essentially driven out the community and turned these neighborhoods into lily white pseudo-suburbs.  Although there clearly are advantages to being white in America, it is not shared to the same degree.  I am sickened by white people who take full advantage of their socio-economic privileges and then want to preach to others about how enlightened they are because they identify racism and really, really want to work against it.  Try forfeiting some of the advantages you have by sending your children to poor performing schools or living in neighborhoods with high crime rates.  See, by doing those things you can really help those less advantaged, but I bet very few would assume that responsibility.  So, until privileged white people start to put their money where their mouths are, I wish they would just stop sanctimoniously lecturing to the rest of us.  It is really only done to make oneself feel better while they live their lives in a manner that promotes the racial divide.

It's more than a little ironic that this holier-than-thou anti-bourgoise screed also invokes a classical liberal individualist perspective, eschewing any calls for cross-class, much less cross-racial solidarity in fighting racism, but instead calling for individual penance.  Looking back now, this contradiction is what strikes me more vividly.  At the time, however, I was simply struck by how totally off the mark jar137 in visualizing who I am--always a problem when you respond to arguments with ad hominem attacks on the internet, where no one knows that you're a dog.  And so I replied, and the following interchange ensued:

I've Lived In Integrated Neighborhoods Most Of My Adult Life

Either working-class or at least partly so.  And, yes, I've been even been mugged on a couple of occasions.

You really don't have any idea who you're talking to.

by: Paul Rosenberg @ Sun Jul 26, 2009 at 11:46


    My comment was not meant personally

    but was directed toward a group, to which it appears you belong.
     I would argue privilege derives more from your socio-economic
    status than the color of your skin (not that I'm denying the
    discrepancies between treatment on the basis of race).  That was
    my point.  On the basis of your comment it does appear that you
    fall into the category I define, notwithstanding that you have chosen
    (I would bet) to live in working class environments.  Also,
    the fact that you think getting mugged is some form of bona fides
    gives me a pretty good idea of whom I am talking to.

    by: jar137 @ Sun Jul 26, 2009 at 14:08
      Totally Clueless!

      jar137:
      Try forfeiting some of the advantages you have by sending your children to poor performing schools or living in neighborhoods with high crime rates.

      Me:

      I've Lived In Integrated Neighborhoods Most Of My Adult

      Either working-class or at least partly so.  And, yes, I've been even been mugged on a couple of occasions


      jar137:

      Also, the fact that you think getting mugged is some form of bona fides gives me a pretty good idea of whom I am talking to.

      Totally!

      by: Paul Rosenberg @ Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 23:32

There are all sorts of things one can see in this exchange.  As already noted, jar137, our purported working-class white liberal seems to be as thoroughly imbued with an individualist, classical liberal worldview as any colorblind racists.  This is hardly a compelling foundation for any sort of working-class class struggle.  And by interjecting the issue of class this way--first as an either/or proposition, then as the foundation for an ad hominem attack--jar137 effectively rejects and deprives himself of any benefit of the colorblind racism perspective.

It would be one thing to say, "This is a very interesting perspective, but what about class..."  That could lead to a very productive discussion.  But the actual approach we saw in action?  Not so much.

A second observation comes from the situationist perspective.  When I said, "And, yes, I've been even been mugged on a couple of occasions", I was responding to the situation, the dialogue in which jar137 had just written:

Try forfeiting some of the advantages you have by sending your children to poor performing schools or living in neighborhoods with high crime rates.

But after I wrote that, jar137  came right back, reading what I'd written as if it were a contextless revelation of an implicit trait--a Level Two "durable category", if you will.

I'll be the first to admit that all this stuff gets rather complicated.  Which is why it's so important to be open to multiple perspectives, and also to be open to revision, admitting mistakes or oversights, and learning from them.  This is part of what attracts me to perspectives like colorblind racism, which acknowledges the role of unconscious biases without demonizing people for having them, or like situationism, which generalizes that perspective across the entire range of human frailties and failings.

And thus I conclude this section by noting that although jar137 did indeed intrude with a "truth that's told with bad intent", it's very likely that the bad intent was not conscious, and it's virtually certain that it was not reflected on.  

That's part of what genuine class struggle is supposed to be about--a struggle to make visible the hidden relationships, hidden injuries and hidden assumptions, for only by making them visible does it become possible to do something about them. Someone willing to look at, and admit their mistakes, is the most valuable kind of ally one can hope to have.  I hope that jar137 turns out to be that kind of ally.

Looking Forward

In the next diary, I will be turning to the racist attacks on Barack Obama, Sonya Sotomayor and others.  Some of the figures involved have clear records of displaying racial animus in the form of verbal expressions commonly recognized as racist. When such figures accuse others of being "racist" there can be no question of the bad faith of their attacks, and little question of the racism involved, when directed at people of color.  So I will address this aspect first.  However, as already indicated, colorblind racism provides a general framework for projecting racist charges of racism onto minorities for virtually any sort of action that upsets the individual colorblind racist--and this more general framework is far more pernicious, if less obvious to the untrained eye.  Hopefully, the discussion in this diary has helped us to better train our eyes as we turn to examine the far more pernicious actors in this drama.


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I'm going to say something fairly direct here that I'm sure will come back to haunt me (4.00 / 7)
I'm pretty sure I'm racist.  I'm a white American and I am about as anti-racist as any white person can be, and I'm absolutely certain that there are times when, without any intent whatsoever, I judge people based on their ethic background.  

I say this because, from my point of view, there is no justification for pretending otherwise.  I fight the racism I was raised with and was, to some small extent, ingrained in me, by being open about it, acknowledging it and figuring out how to move past it.

Pretending it doesn't exist solves nothing.  Pretending it's not part of our social fabric does nothing but give it a place to hide.

I probably have better things to do with my time than this.


What You Are vs. What You Have (4.00 / 1)
Here's the paradox: Only someone who'll say they are a racist might not be one.

The reason is that there's a difference between having racist impressions, subconscious biases, stereotypes, etc., which everyone in a racist society has, and being identified with those racist elements.

This having/being dichotomy is the same as Kegan's object/subject structure of the self.  What we "have" is what is object for us, what we can consciously deal with.  What we are is subject for us, what we use to deal with what is object.  Now, we can be embedded in a racist attitude, expectation, perception, whatever, without even knowing it, so that in one sense we are racist.  But it's precisely the unwillingness to see that in ourselves that's the most powerful force keeping it in place.  And it's precisely the willingness to see it that's the most powerful force in allowing it to surface, so that we can deal with it.

Hence, the paradox.  Because if you deal with it as soon as it comes up, it really isn't you, it's something that has passed through you, like wind through a canyon.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
You invoked Kegan and therefore... (0.00 / 0)
...I may have to kill you.

That said, I'm not sure I agree with you.

I do try to fight racism when I recognize it, but I can't tell if I'm doing it effectively.  I can't tell how much of my own racism is so ingrained in me that I can't always recognize it.  

What I do, as a matter of personal policy, is to never take offense when someone suggests something I've done might be based in racist motives.  I simply listen and think about it.  That's because I've seen so many people do what you illustrate above: simply get hyperdefensive when race is brought up as an issue.

I probably have better things to do with my time than this.


[ Parent ]
Hmmm (0.00 / 0)
And here I thought if I talked in paradoxes, you couldn't disagree with me, since I was already disagreeing with myself!

Curses!  Foiled again!

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Are you familiar (0.00 / 0)
with Ricky Sherover-Marcuse? One of the clearest thinkers I have ever encountered:

http://www.unlearningracism.or...


Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
To derail the subject a bit... (0.00 / 0)
You say that if you treat racist attitudes as an object, you can separate them from oneself.  But, in theory at least, it seems possible to treat any part of oneself as an object.  Doesn't that mean that 'I' don't really exist?

Or, to put it another way, are we nothing but wind, with an illusion for a canyon?


[ Parent ]
Well, That's Precisely What Buddhism Teaches (4.00 / 1)
The individual self is an illusion.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
no (4.00 / 1)
you will have to accept this on faith, but in fact, you are a physical object that exists in a physical world (sort of like Madonna said).  There is nothing I can do to prove it to you, but I can argue that it is in everyone's best interests for you to do so.

or to put it another way, I can doubt, contemplate, reflecy on the existence of I the subject, but me the object, the material thing, always exists.  How do I know this?  I don't.  But I believe - there are limits to rationality and it in fact can't exist withotu an initial act of faith (after which it should almost always be used and faith should very very very rarely be used).

I happen to believe I and me are one and the same, and that I the subject is in some ways subordinate to me the object, but that's my belief - like I said I cant prove it to you.  I can only tell you that implications of the line of reasoning you're using are easily adaptable by christian fundamentalists to come up with pseudoscientific explanations of how human beings evolved :)

:)


[ Parent ]
Recced (0.00 / 0)
for the Madonna reference!

Though wasn't it "material?"

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
yes that's part of the fun :) (4.00 / 1)
if you make it too obvious, it's less fun :)

[ Parent ]
If That's Your Idea of Fun... (0.00 / 0)
You really need to get out more....

(Warning, approximately infinite regress of meta-level ironies herein.  Proceed at your own risk.)

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Irony is very demode (0.00 / 0)
Today we prefer wordplay :)

[ Parent ]
You sound like a good person julie (0.00 / 0)
I have biases and other problems too.  Race is a social issue in addition to personal ones, and every person is a participant in it with a few rare exceptions that transofrm themselves with the help of others into extraordinarily great anti-racists or extraordinarily horrific racists.  You can also substitute homophobia, sexism, classism or other words here too.  For example, I'm completely ignoreed in the discussion above becdause I'm not black or white, which is also a typical feature of race discussions :)

All of which is to say - I apreciate your courage, it inspires me to have more, and I hope you're not too hard on yourself because like I said, it's a system, not gnerally a personal failing.  Sincere struggle - internal and external - and honesty and attempst to listen are I thihnk all that anyone can reaosnably ask from a good ally.


[ Parent ]
I'm not hard on myself at all (4.00 / 2)
I see a distinct difference between blame and responsibility.  I don't blame myself for the racist attitudes I inherited, nor do I feel guilty about them.  I do, however, feel responsible and accountable for them.  Perhaps that's why it's easier for me to speak in public about this.  I don't view this as something to feel guilty about. I view this as something to take action about.

I probably have better things to do with my time than this.

[ Parent ]
hmm (0.00 / 0)
well if you have any advice on how to go about growing into such an atittude without losing a sense of accountability, lay it on me.

[ Parent ]
It's a philosophical thing for me (4.00 / 2)
I don't believe in guilt.  I don't think it solves anything.  So I focus on responsibility instead.  Too often I've seen guilt push people to try to "make up" for things they've done without attempting to solve anything.  

So yeah-- we do lots of bad things in our lives and we make lots of mistakes, and we do things that hurt one another (and ourselves) and just kind of feel guilty about it.  When I get into a guilt spiral about something, suddenly it's all about me and my feelings.  Not useful.

So when I find myself starting to feel guilty, I try to figure out how to change things so that I don't make the same mistake next time around.  Guilt too often leads to defensiveness and half-solutions.  Responsibility leads to ownership of the problem and motivation to solve it.

I probably have better things to do with my time than this.


[ Parent ]
enjoyed reading this diary (4.00 / 2)
I'm glad I stuck with it to the end.

For lack of a better way of putting it, I have a nagging suspicion those most likely to read it are among those least likely to learn something new (and vice versa).

They call me Clem, Clem Guttata. Come visit wild, wonderful West Virginia Blue


Learning Is A Funny Thing (4.00 / 4)
The heroic ideal of learning as a transformation may not happen all that often.  But there's a lot of under-appreciated value in learning what you already know, but from a slightly different perspective. It's not the kind of thing that shows up well on tests, but it's about the process of learning something so that you've got it in your bones.

I should know.  Every time I write one of these diaries, I learn a little something like that.

And folks who've learned stuff more deeply may, in turn, be better able to communicate in other venues to people who'd never read a diary like this in a million years.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Where would the dimmer white males be economicaly (4.00 / 1)
without the police state in the absence of a strong industrial labor movement?

Answer? Nowhere. That is why the cling to the police state so bitterly.

Where would dimmer white males be in a Dixie-style system where you are always above brown skinned people in status?

Answer? Always in the middle class, if only as an enforcer of the police state.

That is why they love it and fight for Dixie so much, it has real world consequences for them.

Conversely, if you love justice and civilization, you have to war down those with this sentiment...

...before they war down civilization.

Sherman understood that, so should we.


NOT True, the opposite is true (4.00 / 3)
If there were no system that needed defending with racist constructions, even 'dimmer' white males would be living in a system where people were working together without being separated into artificial groups.

The construction of racism doesn't give the racist whites any advantage!

In fact, racist white males are on the whole the poorest, least served, with the worst school systems for example. Racism is used to keep racist white males confused about the people responsible for their poverty, confused about why services are not availble, ("they" are using up all the money for your school) and it prevents any action that would be effective in altering  their situation.

Racist white males, are not "better off" under racism, even as they "get benefits,"  even as African-Americans and latino's etc are being treated harshly unfairly and with ill will.


--

The government has a defect: it's potentially democratic. Corporations have no defect: they're pure tyrannies. -Chomsky


[ Parent ]
Let me clarify this with an example. (4.00 / 2)
When Imperial Britain established control in the many many states of India, they set up local governing elites who became wealthy and exerted both their own control and the control required of them by London.
Theses people benefited from the bifurcation of society into a control group and a controlled group. Using racism to defend their position, and classism and casteism, was without doubt providing wealth to the elite.

They were being driven apart to continue the rule by the Raj, with the Raj in the final analysis, the state re[presented by Empress Victoria. And then later other kings, but all of whom served the wealth of the British elite.

Gandhi who campaigned against the purchase of British textiles, and promoted local spinners and weavers, was castigated with belittling racism as he sought to talk and pressure the Empire out of India.

However when he went to the centre of British cloth industry, went into the towns were people made their meager living off weaving, he was welcomed as hero of liberation and literally paraded around thew streets. While the weavers made common cause with his demands for respect, fairness and self governing.

--

The government has a defect: it's potentially democratic. Corporations have no defect: they're pure tyrannies. -Chomsky


[ Parent ]
i've studied south asia and i was more or less with you until the last paragraph (0.00 / 0)
in fairness, i don't know what the reception of gandhi was by the broad base of white working class people, but your description of british attitudes strikes me as extremely romanticized.  i'm living in britain now as an Asian (i.e. South Asian person) and racism is as deepseated in the uk as it is any other place, though it looks different than in the u.s. and the uk has a stronger progressive base and infrastructure from which to deal with problems like race, class, gender, sexuality, etc.  But it's still hard - trust me.  It's a stretch to imagine that this was somehow vastly different in a positive way 60-70 years ago.

On another day, We can get into a realistic assessment of Gandhi (for all his genius and positive traits) as complicit with Indian big business, passive aggressively dictatorial in the nationalist movement, and a coopter of lower caste movements.

I agree with your basic point though - that white working class men have more to gain from alliancesith other disempowered groups than from policing their own exploitation is accurate and that their are what have been called comprador capitalists in virtually every oppressed community (dubois called them the talented tenth - i call them the multiculti elite - they'cve always existed and probably always will in a state that manages to oppress large groups of people but still retain political stability without constant use of force).

Minor historical quibble - the British Crown didn't takje direct rule of British India until 1857/8 - until that point it was the East India company which was ruling.  there were many princely states in India, but there were eventually four massive british presidencies as well.  and you have left out religion/communalism as a major negative result of british rule in India (and palestine, sri lanka, cyprus, ireland, nigeria...)


[ Parent ]
The Raj's bag of tricks. (0.00 / 0)
i don't know what the reception of gandhi was by the broad base of white working class people,
I am describing actual events of the white cloth covered gent walking the streets. This is description. I do not have, nor know where to find, any poll of mass opinion at the time. But real it was. Romantic or not.

and you have left out religion/communalism
Please feel free to add these to my list, which was not intended to exclude any other form of social bifurcation used for, or invented to, keep the money flowing to the  stately homes of the green hills of England. Here is the list I started
Using racism to defend their position, and classism and casteism,
add more detailed lists as you see fit.

I always hear the noble words of the British anthem "Rule Britania!" ie. "Britains never never, never never never shall be slaves...."  to be followed implicitly with.. "On the other hand, you lot might want to get in lines now"

--

The government has a defect: it's potentially democratic. Corporations have no defect: they're pure tyrannies. -Chomsky


[ Parent ]
okay i found it! (0.00 / 0)
There's a really interesting (undergraduate) history essay done on exactly this visit of Gandhi to Lancashire.  It's too detailed to summarise swiftly (from my place of employment :) but if you're interested in this period and topic, I recommend it:

here


[ Parent ]
Thank you very much. (0.00 / 0)
I have not read deep into the 55 page doc, but just small passages are completely uplifting to me. Thanks agian.

I will read this and save it.


--

The government has a defect: it's potentially democratic. Corporations have no defect: they're pure tyrannies. -Chomsky


[ Parent ]
I think you are both right (4.00 / 2)
for different reasons. And this gets to the heart of the question "what is racism?"

Yes the working class white racist is worse off because of racism, because it prevents them from making common cause with non-white members of the working class. Without the blinders of personal racism they could be part of the effort to actually improve life for working class people.

But the upper class racist is better off for the existence of racism, for exactly the same reason! And this is the person who may or may not be personally racist, may or may not ever utter a derogatory word in their entire charmed life. But those very charmed lives are built on institutional racism.

You can't be on top without someone on bottom, and the systems we have in place to keep people on the bottom are, in America, always at least partially based on race.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
Yes. There are many who benefit from the imposition of racialist thinking. (0.00 / 0)
But the tool of social control through racism controls the hater majority as it does the stigmatized. I look forward to a graphic filled, cross tabbed, demographic intensive examoination of the main southern states where racism still holds sway against year of school completion, amount paid on education per captia, number of people that qualify for scholarships, the healthcare levels, the work safety/work deaths ratios, the water quality, rights of corporations expropriating land etc etc
But yes this is not to say, obviously that Watts Oakland and
African American rural south don't also have high levels of unemployment, high levels of crime, high levels of poverty.

But the ratio of poor racists to the wealthy who benefit from a society that cant solve its social problems because they too busy blaming the wrong things, ignoring the real ways that poverty is delivered and wealth leaves, is approximately the same as the ratio of the stigmatized and excluded to that same group of system reapers.

Banks are in buildings that are cleaned by "third party" cleaning services companies that hire their work force out for much more than what they pay their workers, often less than the minimum age. The Banks are making record profits, record bonuses, taxpayer bailouts, risking the money the society could be building a health system with in financial gambling schemes gone wrong.
And instead of demanding accountability, they blame "those people" who are not making any more than they are, not getting any health coverage, and because of what they mistakenly think of as their adversary never find a way to fight back.

--

The government has a defect: it's potentially democratic. Corporations have no defect: they're pure tyrannies. -Chomsky


[ Parent ]
"Police like to leave a scene with order restored." (4.00 / 1)
Since I already wasted some time with this oxymoronic hodge-podge, I might as well share an actual thought from a thoughtful commenter on TalkLeft, where there was a modicum of substantial discussion about Gates/Crowley.

Transor Z's post about the legal definition of disorderly conduct in Massaachusetts on his excellent blog Pick Your Poison is worth reading in its entirety, but for me his or her most salient insight was an almost casual remark that "Police like to leave a scene with order restored."

This rang some bells with me because a large chunk of my adult life has been devoted to street photography in settings where disorder is relatively frequent.

There a couple of kids mouthing off at each other can quickly escalate into something infinitely more serious, and it isn't enough for the police to separate the angry individuals and depart, because there are always a few more words to be said, and a brawl can instantly flare up again.

In the case of Gates and Crowley, most commenters seem to assume that anyone walking down Ware Street in the middle of the day is a peaceful Harvard student or professor, but every demographic in the greater Boston metro occasionally passes through Harvard Square, including Southie types who traditionally identify with "Boston's finest," especially in disputes with black people.

So it wasn't impossible or even vanishingly unlikely that some beefy individual in the little crowd that gathered on Ware Street might have been offended if Gates had continued to shout insults while Crowley drove away, and Big Mike from Southie might have said a few harsh words to Skip, and Skip might have said a few harsh words back, and gotten his neck broken.

People who spend all day almost every day at a desk or in the suburbs may immediately decide "That could never happen," but something very much like it has happened again and again and again in the greater Boston metro, and on the streets of Sacramento and Los Angeles where I photograph almost every demographic category of black America.

In twenty years on the street I saw three shootings up close and personal, too many knives to remember, and maybe a hundred fist-fights, but I never saw any situation anywhere where every black person on the street wasn't safer with cops on the scene than without them.


You've Lived A Very Sheltered Life (2.00 / 4)
I never saw any situation anywhere where every black person on the street wasn't safer with cops on the scene than without them.

Seriously.

Cops kill black people in Long Beach on a fairly regular basis, every couple of years or so. I guess you could argue they're safer once they're dead.  Nothing more can happen to them.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
And when Paul Rosenberg isn't copying and pasting silly pop-psychology... (4.00 / 1)
He can't even read.

I described what I saw and photographed on streets full of gangstas and skin-heads, and with photos to prove it, and the moron Rosenberg shoots off his mouth about what a sheltered life I lead.

Did you ever see a shooting, moron?

And now Rosenberg shoots off his mouth about Long Beach, where there were 40 murders and 120 forcible rapes reported last year.

Google (police shooting "long beach") and see what comes up.

A 4-year-old boy was in critical condition Thursday morning after he was hit by a stray bullet, and his prospects for survival were unknown, police said Thursday morning.

The shooting occurred at about 7 p.m. near of Earl and East 21 st Street and stemmed from a fight between a man who came to the area to meet someone and a group of people, both males and females, who confronted him, Luman said.

The confrontation quickly turned physical and during the fight a black male among the group pulled out a gun and opened fire on the man who had come to the neighborhood, the commander said.

And that covers about 95% of the shootings in Long Beach.

And when the police actually shoot somebody...

Three gang members walked up to a man sitting in a parked car, pulled out guns and opened fire last week as undercover police looked on in disbelief.

An ensuing chase on the Long Beach (710) Freeway ended with a shootout at the Willow Street on-ramp that left one suspect dead and the other two and a policeman wounded.

But the moron Rosenberg learned all about life on the street from his silly pop-psychology books, and every time a cop shoots an armed suspect who is already shooting at somebody, the moron Rosenberg screams "police brutality" and congratulates himself for knowing all about "life on the street."


[ Parent ]
So Henry Louis Gates Is Just Like Some Gangstah (2.67 / 3)
Verrrrrry interesting.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Did I say that, moron? (1.33 / 3)
The only thing worth understanding about you, Paul Rosenberg, you sick little jerk, is why honest bloggers like Chis Bowers and David Sirota would let you on their site.

So Henry Louis Gates Is Just Like Some Gangstah

You don't have an argument to make, so you try to play the race card, and your sick little games discredit OpenLeft, while your ludicrous chatter about "color-blind racism" only distracts attention from a real undercurrent of anti-immigrant hostility and agitation which is infinitely more significant than a penny-ante episode of virtually nothing on Ware Street.

But here's a charitable heads-up for you, just to show I don't hold grudges against morons:

You should probably add Jonathan Turley to your list of "color-blind racists," because he not only dismisses Gates silly charges, but also maintains that Crowley has a reasonable case against Gates for defamation, an opinion he shares with a couple of White House lawyers who explained the facts of life to Obama and convinced him and Gates to back the fuck off Crowley.

Gates could argue that this was merely an opinion uttered in the heat of the moment. However, the allegation continued to be made after the arrest and courts have rejected the use of the opinion defense when it is based on the assertion of a defamatory fact like racist motives.

So be careful how you play the race card, Paul Rosenberg, because not every defamation suit can be bought off for a couple of beers with a couple of jerks.


[ Parent ]
Nearly trolled this response (0.00 / 0)
for getting way too personal, here.

I don't think Paul thought all the way through his response (you do say you take photographs of shootings) but he didn't deserve this response...


[ Parent ]
And yet... (4.00 / 1)
You should probably add Jonathan Turley to your list of "color-blind racists," because he not only dismisses Gates silly charges, but also maintains that Crowley has a reasonable case against Gates for defamation, an opinion he shares with a couple of White House lawyers who explained the facts of life to Obama and convinced him and Gates to back the fuck off Crowley.

Gates could argue that this was merely an opinion uttered in the heat of the moment. However, the allegation continued to be made after the arrest and courts have rejected the use of the opinion defense when it is based on the assertion of a defamatory fact like racist motives.

But it's so much easier for morons to play the race card than pay attention to the facts.


[ Parent ]
And... (2.00 / 2)
You really had to go through the Democratic primaries on Daily Kos before you can understand exactly how disgusting Rosenberg's never-ending race-baiting has become to people like me, who supported a different candidate from Obama (Kucinich in my case) and we were bombarded with literally hundreds of defamatory comments under every diary we published.

How could anyone oppose Obama except racist scum?

Why can't you understand that Obama is a shining knight of the progressive agenda, you cockroach?

And now that shining knight of the progressive agenda has sold out every stick and stone in the United States to his friends in the banks, cranked up the war in Afghanistan, and broken every promise he ever made, but...

Jerks like Rosenberg still play the race card in ludicrously inappropriate situations like Gates/Crowley, and meanwhile Obama and Gates are sucking up to Crowley as hard as they can, so that (please God!) Crowley doesn't sue Gates for defamation and bring all those embarrassing tapes of Gates screaming racist horseshit into open court.


[ Parent ]
Jacob, do you ever get tired of hearing yourself talk? (2.67 / 3)
Seriously man, enough with the hot air.

Check out Blue Arkansas:
http://bluearkansas.blogspot.com/


[ Parent ]
You know... (2.00 / 4)


if I didn't understand how ineffective troll rating is on the Soapblox platform you'd get one of mine.

As it is I hope your comments stay visible forever as a testament to your racism.


[ Parent ]
And still... (4.00 / 1)
You should probably add Jonathan Turley to your list of "color-blind racists," because he not only dismisses Gates silly charges, but also maintains that Crowley has a reasonable case against Gates for defamation, an opinion he shares with a couple of White House lawyers who explained the facts of life to Obama and convinced him and Gates to back the fuck off Crowley.

Gates could argue that this was merely an opinion uttered in the heat of the moment. However, the allegation continued to be made after the arrest and courts have rejected the use of the opinion defense when it is based on the assertion of a defamatory fact like racist motives.

But it's so much easier for morons to play the race card than pay attention to the facts.


[ Parent ]
And "hornbeck"... (0.00 / 0)
If you have the balls to make defamatory accusations in the real world, you can easily find me on the street in south LA or north Sacramento, where my many little friends from the projects will be glad to kick some sense into your pointy little head.

[ Parent ]
Oh for Christ's sake (0.00 / 0)
How old are you?  Thirteen? Fourteen?  Seriously kid, GROW UP.  If you feel the need to call someone out to the street your obviously not mature enough or informed enough to carry on a civilized discussion.

Check out Blue Arkansas:
http://bluearkansas.blogspot.com/


[ Parent ]
You're Supposed To Laugh! (2.00 / 2)
Taking Jacob seriously is where you went wrong.

He's quite amusing, actually.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
But I take YOU seriously, Paul. (0.00 / 0)
And I take defamatory accusations from anybody seriously.

So if you want to shoot off your mouth more precisely about "color-blind racism" on OpenLeft, and name names which aren't untraceable pseudonyms...

Why don't you try it, just for a laugh?


[ Parent ]
When I was in left politics in the 60's-70's (4.00 / 3)
one of the most destructive parts were the sessions of self-criticisms often led by arrogant,  know-it-all, self-important, morally-superior "leaders" who used their positions to demean others at the same time admiring their own moral superiority.  Over the last few years here at Open Left, I have noticed how some of the "front-pagers" also treat entirely reasonable commenters who disagree. I made a promise to myself to try to avoid any post headed by Rosenberg for that reason. I am of course breaking it because when I saw this immature, pedantic post I knew some reasonable people like you dealing with the complexity of real-life in today's America would have their comments turned into a confession of innate racism by the Grand Inquisitor himself.  

[ Parent ]
Maybe you're right about avoiding Rosenberg's posts. (4.00 / 1)
I don't know.

I started clicking on OpenLeft because of Chris Bowers and David Sirota, and those guys have consistently maintained a standard of honesty under all sorts of pressure from center-right fans of Obama that's really amazing to me.

I skip almost all of Rosenberg's posts, but like a lot of other "veterans" of the primary wars on MyDD and Daily Kos, unfounded accusations of racism are a particularly sore subject, since the race card was constantly played all through the primaries against anyone who wasn't cheering for Obama, and it was played against all sorts of people who had paid their dues on the front line of civil rights agitation way back when the real racists weren't hiding in the shadows, but running the show in Alabama and Mississippi, and elsewhere.

Anyway, thanks VLaszlo, for jumping back into this repulsive brew, and I also remember late nights with "Young Sparticists" screaming at anybody who wasn't already throwing bombs (although they were exceedingly careful to avoid endangering their own candy-asses) and so many others who preached an unattainable ideological purity which none of them practiced.


[ Parent ]
tribalism as a means of social control (4.00 / 2)
Clearly the situation in the Gates' case is murky at best and the situation justifies either viewing it as police overreach or a Harvard professor who did not know when to shut up (depending ultimately on the actual events that are unavailable to us). Some have argued that in any case whatever Gates said and however he said it the policeman exceeded his authority in arresting him. Perhaps. But this type of police action is not unusual in such cases ...white or black...or particularly egregious and much more egregious and worrisome examples of police brutality, and of racism exist. (I thought this column:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...
by Anna Deavere Smith very interesting).
The idea that anyone who disputes the politically correct line promulgated by our resident Commissar, Rosenberg, is therefore a racist is unbelievably destructive of the goals of building a progressive left movement. That brings us to Rosenberg. I am reminded of the most intolerant intransigent figures in the 60's who touted the line that anyone disagreeing with them are racists...Eldridge Cleaver and Imamu Amiri Baraka are two who come prominently to mind. Ususally the Commissars with the greatest intolerance are the ones who manage to go the full 180 degrees and formally align with the side they in fact are aiding with their divisive and destructive attacks and their assumption and prescription of politically purity.

I am too old and have been thru too many political fights with self-serving prigs like Rosenberg. He will do as much destruction as he is allowed to get away with. He is more effective at dividing the left and promoting internecine infighting than members of the ruling class...but he certainly serves their interests. The interchange between Sadie Baker and ccarollo is pretty instructive...never mind what is right or just or fair just assume that the "target group" is right absent any evidence to the contrary. How better to promote the "tribalism" that advances the ruling interests. When last I saw a non-target group follow this prescription, the Weathermen fawning on black nationalism but unable then to organize white poor or workers (no surprise... given that the role they reserved for them was to carry water for the nationalists) turned to their "Days of Rage". Great ideas then and great ideas now.


[ Parent ]
As an attorney (4.00 / 2)
and African-American I find the "he was arrested to protect him/the area from racist whites" very funny.

However, it rests on the assumption that there were racist whites sitting outside of his house in the middle of the day (which is funny) but, and more importantly, it ignores the fact that Crowley was the one who made Gates go outside in the first place. Presumably to place him in a position to be able to make the very same argument that you made so that he could arrest him.

Bad cop.

And cops kill innocent African-Americans with enough regularity that I'd have to say that I feel safer when cops aren't around even if something has jumped off. But then again they're unlikely "accidentally" shoot you so I understand why YOU would feel safer.  


[ Parent ]
You don't know fuck-all about Ware Street or Harvard Square. (0.00 / 0)
So why don't you try a little experiment, and ride the 86 bus from Harvard to Sullivan Square, and shout a few racist insults at every cop-car that goes by.

The cops won't even look your way, but you will draw a crowd, and half that crowd rides the 86 bus in the other direction every day of the week.


[ Parent ]
i don't want to get in a personal dispute, but your last line is really provocative (4.00 / 1)
It's not what you saidd, but a potential implication of what you said is that Black people have the same chances with the police as all others.  Do you believe that the police are on the side of the Black people on the street in all situations, without hesitation, racial bias, or other factors?  And which Black people on the street?  And what does 'safer' mean - does it include the people they're arresting who are going to be put in the criminal justice system?  Many of the legal activities conducted by the police have discriminatory outcomes.

I mean if it comes down to it and there's a shooting or stabbing going on on the street, at that very moment, well, yeah I would assume that people would most of the time be safer with functional policing happening, assumikng that it's not the police that are shooting at them.  But that's not really the issue being discussed here.  The issue is the extent of racism (direct or indirect) in policing and criminal justice in the United States.  And that doesn't take into account situations in which Black people or anyone else is resisting or just victimised by the police themselves (e.g. Amadou Diallou, Rodney King, and so many others).

If you want to say that the police officer in question was in the right and was a victim of someone, it wasn't Gates or Obama or anyone else - it was that he too was put in an unfair position by virtue of being a police officer in a city and country in which the police, the criminal justice system, judges, lawmakers, mayors, etc. support a racist system or themselves act like bigots way too frequently.  If that didn't happen then this wouldn't even have become a story - it would be as if Gates were White.


[ Parent ]
RE: "Here's the paradox: Only someone who'll say they are a racist might not be one." (0.00 / 0)
SWEET!

'Be a good little boy and take a 'Time Out' Professor (2.00 / 2)
If I put myself in the exact same situation -- as a typical white guy -- and I got short and confrontational with a cop like that, I wouldn't at all be surprised to find myself arrested, or at the very least plopped in the back a squad car to cool off.

That statement shows not only ignorance about what a cop might do under a heated circumstance but it shows something akin to racism in that the comment has the cop as daddy figure and the black guy, aka a professor, as the bad little boy who needs to take a 'time out'.

I don't think you'll find many instances where a citizen is "plopped in the back of a squad car to cool off". That plopping is always preceded by an arrest, complete with hand cuffs attached to the arrested, followed by a trip to the police station to be booked. That's a childish take on 'reality' that the commenter has exposed.


You don't think there are many instances of being plopped in a squad car? (0.00 / 0)
I don't know where you have been for years and years. I have been and I didn't lip off either.

On one instance I just stopped (as a passenger) and bought a T-shirt from MOVE in Philly at the first confrontation in Powelton Village. A left turn by the driver at the next street (Baring) brought us face to face with a squad car in front and one behind and all traffic stopped in the street so no one could see what they were doing to us unless they were looking out the windows of their houses just by chance. The arrival of a paddy wagon, 8 hours in a cell while they tried to find something else on us (scofflaw tickets?) and then let us go in the middle of the night in West Philly to get home on our own alive.

It was while being questioned that I saw pages in a scrapbook devoted to pictures of me. And I did nothing really. What must they have on the real organizers?I'm verbally articulate, not mouthy, and still........

Let alone what just happened to me a few weeks ago in my neon red town. They mowed down my entire garden of food and flowers while one of the cops looked on and sanctified it and the mayor grabbed the weed eater and went at it because the mowers got intimidated when I came out yelling. I fully expected to get taken in.

Trust me it's relentless.

But now I have them good. No beer talks for me. I want blood. I took pics of it all and they didn't grab my camera, that's how arrogant they are.


[ Parent ]
okay (4.00 / 1)
I grant you I'm not well versed on police procedure.  I'll take your word for it that they wouldn't put me in the car without arresting me.  (though I'm pretty sure they would tell me to cool down)

But, uh, "shows something akin to racism"?  What?  This hypothetical involves me, a typical white guy.  Sure, the cop is the daddy figure, but, uh, he's the figure of authority.  Of course he's the daddy figure.  It has nothing to do with race.


[ Parent ]
'Daddy Figure' (0.00 / 0)
Sure, the cop is the daddy figure, but, uh, he's the figure of authority.  Of course he's the daddy figure.  It has nothing to do with race.

Apparently you see it that way. I sure don't. I don't see people of authority, whether they be police or presidents, as 'daddy figures'. The fact that you not only do but that you are so unaware of what a give away of your personal freedom and character that is explains why you might understand why the 'daddy figure' couldn't have found a less in your face unprofessional, overreacting way of dealing with someone who was a bit pissed off at him.  


[ Parent ]
Besides which (4.00 / 2)
sure, a typical white guy, i.e., blue collar, MIGHT find himself arrested for getting confrontational. But a college professor?

That's what the poster is refusing to engage. Upper class white guys are allowed to behave that way. Gates was arrested for behaving like a man of his station instead of his race.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
I found it interesting that when Paul Rosenberg listed 4 racists... (0.00 / 0)
...he listed 4 white males.  No women mentioned, no blacks listed, nor any hispanics.  He actually may be proving his point, but in a very unintentional way.

Regards,

Never before in all our history have these forces been so united against one candidate as they stand today. They are unanimous in their hate for me-and I welcome their hatred. - FDR


Yup. (4.00 / 1)
Because only reverse racism exists.

[ Parent ]
Never said only reverse racism exists.... (0.00 / 0)
...in fact I don't believe in reverse racism.  Racism is racism, being treated unfairly because of your race is wrong, no matter what race you are.  If you believe we should have a system that treats people differently because of their race, that is your opinion, I just disagree.


Never before in all our history have these forces been so united against one candidate as they stand today. They are unanimous in their hate for me-and I welcome their hatred. - FDR

[ Parent ]
Gosh! America's Problem Is White Supremacy (4.00 / 1)
and not black supremacy!

Stop the presses!

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Actually America's problem is that it cannot get beyond race.... (0.00 / 0)
...and start treating people fairly regardless of their race.  Heck on here you can be called a racist for asking that all people be treated equally under the law.

Amazing!

Never before in all our history have these forces been so united against one candidate as they stand today. They are unanimous in their hate for me-and I welcome their hatred. - FDR


[ Parent ]
Great Diary (4.00 / 3)
I am reminded of what a couple of people of color have said about Oregon, where I'm from, after they moved from the South.  That the racism in Oregon (for them) was worse because it was less overt.

Second, my white person sense is that people of color seeking change are less interested in whether a person is racist, and more interested in whether they are willing to work for change.  Too many white liberals spend lots of time taking racial awareness courses but don't actually "do" anything.  They may be less racist. But so what?  My point is not that it isn't better for people to treat each other with more respect, or that having someone especially racist (I try, but have many internalized racist tendencies that pop up when I least expect them) is a good thing.  Only that a racist ally is in many cases better than a sensitive do-nothing.

Anyway, you get this.  

--Aaron Schutz (Core Dilemmas of Community Organizing)


I think it's sort of like being a woman and feminism (0.00 / 0)
Because I had graduate degrees already when feminism became a household word I didn't think I had been discriminated against unduly. Ha! It has taken all my life to see how subtle it was. All unconscious for me so much so that I didn't even notice. And I still have insights about it.

Language, body language, it is everywhere. My problem with the mayor is he is elderly like me and has different expectations as to how women should relate to him, the authority figure. This Gates thing is a real present to me.

Because if I can summon my energy to really go after this in the courts, the way I have been taught, I can win it. Four years of fucking with me and my garden and the second year of mowing it down for a personal vendetta is more than I feel like taking. I just wish I were younger as I don't want to spend about two years fugging him over. Somehow it no longer gives me sadistic pleasure to do so anymore.


You dont need to get pleasure from it if fighting back can create a protection for the future and for others. (4.00 / 2)


--

The government has a defect: it's potentially democratic. Corporations have no defect: they're pure tyrannies. -Chomsky


[ Parent ]
I admire what you describe, and I have often admired your (0.00 / 0)
deep conviction of fairness and humanity. I am hoping that not only do you fight this, I find it, unexpectedly to me, exciting. A  bit of a different take on "my land."

My social responsibility, my land my use of the place, the growing of food the control of a culture of what? (as in "what is lawn", as in what is weeds, what is use for the pretty but distracting lie of suburbia or cityscape). I think, from your precious few words, this a story that would do Meryl Streep proud. I urge California script doctors to option this woman and 1) make her rich, 2) inspire others, 3) challenge personal space in a democracy, personal acquiescence to authority. This has legs as they say.

Get rich abbey. This a good story, write it down. Hollywood send an ethical person to negotiate.

Tim Robbins, this is for you and Susan Sarandon. Or vice versa.

--

The government has a defect: it's potentially democratic. Corporations have no defect: they're pure tyrannies. -Chomsky


[ Parent ]
A group of us does personal legal work (0.00 / 0)
as we all studied with Gene Zimmerman before he died. My legal diaries are over at dkos in the throes of passion while I was taking the course.

We figure we have him on at least 6 different counts, plus the police woman and the usual grass cutters. Criminal and civil. I intend to go before a jury (for the civil part)  as I know how to pick one (it's an art) and how to talk.

Thanks for your encouragement.

I have been stymying the mayor for 4 years now and he is beside himself so he had a temper tantrum with the weed eater that day.  


[ Parent ]
since I'm one of the stars of this show (4.00 / 3)
I suppose I should post somewhat of a rebuttal.

First:

Clearly most folks didn't think ccarollo's first offering was worth responding to.  It was an odd remark--clearly true in one sense (Gates was arrested for mouthing off on his own property, not for breaking in), but as Sadie finally pointed out the next day, so what?

Paul's description may have been technically incorrect, but it was substantively true. If Gates had not broken into his own house, and if he had not been black, then he would not have been arrested. Period. It's nit-picking at best to dispute him like this, but ccarollo presents this as grave matter.  And calling Paul's description "intentionally inflammatory" assumes that arresting Gates in itself was not inflammatory.

The reason I posted was because I was hearing that phrase a lot: "arrested for breaking into his own house" -- which is factually incorrect.  And furthermore, it implies that the cops didn't bother to check his ID, or didn't believe that the house was his, which would be more egregious transgressions than arresting someone for being uncooperative (which is fairly common, though still unacceptable).

You claim that it was "substantively true", but that's not the case.  It's no more true than claiming that someone was "arrested for driving their car" when in fact they were arrested for hitting a pedestrian.  In your own words: if this person had not driven his car...then he would not be arrested.  True, in some weak sense, but I'm sure you can see how it's absurd and intentionally misleading.  And even more, misleading in a way that intends to make the situation sound worse than it actually is.  It's not a "grave matter", but I don't like it when people are intentionally inaccurate to serve their own means.

Is your position so weak that you must exaggerate and misrepresent the situation to make your case?

Also, I don't get how it follows that my calling Paul's comment "intentionally inflammatory" implies that I thought arresting Gates wasn't inflammatory.  His comment was designed to make the cop's behavior sound worse than it was, but that doesn't mean that I don't think arresting someone for simply being mouthy isn't inflammatory.

Next:

So, I write that "Gates may very well have been wrong about the officer" (being racist), and ccarollo castigates me for even mentioning racism.  Someone has a reading comprehension problem.

Okay, fair enough -- I was more responding to the idea that Crowley was necessarily racist, which you did mention might not be the case. I wasn't castigating you for "even mentioning racism", I actually intended to respond to the first comment ("It's the same old ignorant, self-serving racism we've had since slavery.") but hit "Post a Comment" rather than "Reply".  My bad.

That said, if you'd replied with something along the lines of "like I said, it's possible that Gates was wrong in this specific case, but that's missing the larger point of my article", the resulting discussion would have probably been a lot more productive.  But your reply strongly implied that you thought the arrest WAS racially motivated (you quoted arrest rates and added a sarcastic "Look Ma! No Racism!").  Which only reinforces the point of my comment.

Next:

So, it's wrong to point out the persistence of typically unconscious colorblind racism--not because it doesn't exist, but because doing so is "harping on race" which in turn is "insulting, dangerous, and ultimately harmful to race relations as a whole."

No, it's not wrong to point out the effects of colorblind racism and institutionalized bias.  That's not what I wrote.  The relevant part of my quote is "immediately, and assuming the cop...is racist".  My issue is with the assumption that Crowley was racist as the very first snap judgment made in this situation.

And:

A very interesting sort of logic: telling the truth about race could make white people angry, so best to keep quiet about it.  Seems like I've heard that before... for about the last 350 years.  This illustrates the underlying persistence of certain aspects of racist ideology from one configuration to another, however much the main ideological content might vary.

Frankly, that's really, really insulting.  I wasn't objecting to an examination of race that might make white people uncomfortable.  Personally, I think that most examinations of race will make white people uncomfortable.

Being as clear as I can: my issue was with the assumption that Crowley must be racist.

Moving on:

This is mindboggling claim, when you stop to think about.  White people terrified about talking honestly about race?  I know they generally don't like to.  But that's mostly because it means fessing up to the fact that someone else is getting a raw deal.  That hardly equates to being terrified.  In fact, while many white people feel uncomfortable with the prospect of talking about race, they are actually relieved once they've broken the ice.  What's going on here may seem very subtle, but it's crucially important.  Those who are terrified as ccarollo claims do not speak for all white people, as they imagine.  They only think they are typical of white people in general.  But they are actually significantly more anxious than most white people are--at least whites who aren't conservatives. Indeed, what they are most likely terrified of is losing the imaginary moral high ground of having white skin--and being "above race."

Uh, no.  Perhaps "terrified" was a bit strong, but in my experience, white people are nervous about talking about race because it's incredibly easy to be misread or have something taken out of context.  It often feels like a game of "gotcha" (this whole article of yours being a case-in-point) -- everyone's just looking for evidence of "colorblind racism".

It's great that being called racist in error (or even correctly due to the biases that we all have to one degree or another) doesn't bother you.  It's great that you're so enlightened.

But for a lot of people, it's an ugly, nasty charge.  And what's worse, it's a charge that there's absolutely no way to disprove.  It's not falsifiable.  I mean, there's even jokes about the lame ways people try to disprove it: "I have a black friend".  So yes, I think being seriously accused of being a racist is charge that makes a lot of white people legitimately frightened.

Case in point: the woman that made the 911 was harassed and threatened afterward because of the assumption that she made the call about a couple black guys breaking into a house, and the assumption was that her call was racially-motivated.  She was lucky in that the 911 recording revealed that she didn't mention race at all, but what if she had -- accurately -- reported that two black guys were breaking into a house?  Would she still be getting harassed?  Would she forever be held in suspicion of being racist, with no way to refute those assumptions?  For nothing more than doing the good deed of trying to prevent a break-in?

Unfortunately I'm not familiar with the meaning of your three proverbs (or I am, but don't see how they apply).  Could you elaborate?  Why exactly are you unconcerned about charges of racism, whereas I'd find it "terrifying"?

Next:

But who in the world actually does "assume that racism played a part of every single unfortunate thing that happened to black people"?  No one I've ever met, that's for damn sure.  That's a ridiculous mischaracterization of what people like me are saying--although we are saying that the impact of race-based harms is far more pervasive than most white folks (and even many blacks) realize.

It was intended to be an exaggeration as a way to indicate where I think "colorblind racism" can be dangerous.  Huge swaths of the country immediately assumed Crowley was the stereotypical racist cop (even when his pedigree indicates that's probably not the case).  Lots of people DO assume that there are racist motives in individual cases where no evidence exists.  And once you do that in one case, what's to prevent you from doing it in all cases?

As far as the data you presented, I ignored it not because I was racist (as you're rather nastily implying), but because it wasn't relevant to my point.  Yes, your data is absolutely correct.  I totally, 100% grant you that.  I don't dispute it in the least.

But my point was that it's dangerous to apply the aggregate to the specific.  Which is pretty much what I said at the time.

Now, you could make the point that these biases manifest in subtle ways that are virtually impossible to track and prove except in the aggregate.  And given that, how do work to eliminate those bases when they in practice demonstrate themselves in thousands of concrete instances that are individually devoid of specific proof of racism.

Now that's an interesting problem, one without an easy solution, and one that I think it would be interesting to discuss.

But again -- just so I'm crystal clear -- my point was that it's dangerous to take the real, quantifiable-in-the-aggregate biases, and apply them to individual cases like the Gates arrest.  There's a temptation to see every situation as racially biased, and it felt to me like you (or perhaps the majority of commentors) were doing just that.

Now, I still don't see how I'm "reciting from the colorblind racism handbook" (there's that nasty accusation of racism again).  Could you please humor me and explain that more clearly?  

Underlying Ccarollo's entire argument is the assumption that if there was no racist intent, there was no racism.  This is what the demand for "proof" of racism is all about--prove there was racist intent.  But others--most notably Sadie Baker--repeatedly pointed out that racism is not solely, or even primarily a matter of individual intent.  It is systemic, institutional, and on the individual level, today at least, it is largely unconscious, embedded in perceptual biases and assumptions that most people are not even aware that they have.

Actually, no, I never assumed that if there was no proof of racism, there was no racism.  In fact, in my very first post I said "Maybe race was an issue in this case.  Maybe it wasn't."  I'm well aware that racism and biases exist, including subconsciously.  My issue was -- again -- that it can be dangerous when applying these biases to individual situations, because it's then easy to see them in all situations.  As many people -- including you yourself -- did in this case.

Anyways, I hope I've clarified my position a little.  Or, now that I'm reading over all of this, a lot, heh.


Umm... (2.00 / 2)

The facts are that Crowley lied in his police report and committed a FALSE arrest.


[ Parent ]
well... (4.00 / 1)
I'm not sure how that's relevant to anything that I posted, but...

Do we know that Crowley lied in his police report?  We know that he reported that black males with backpacks were reported to have been breaking in (which I assume is what you're referring to), and we know that the 911 caller didn't mention race and I believe referred to suitcases, not backpacks.  Those are the facts.  

What we don't know (correct me if I'm wrong) is whether a game of telephone happened between the 911 operator and police dispatch.  Or whether Crowley misremembered police dispatch after-the-fact.  Now, I'll agree with you that it doesn't look good, that it sure seems like Crowley could have been racially biased based on these discrepancies.  But it's incorrect to say that it's a fact that Crowley lied in his police report.

As far as the arrest goes, yeah, I agree with you.  Crowley and the other cops on-scene definitely abused their powers some in arresting him for a specious "disorderly conduct" charge.


[ Parent ]
This Is An Exhibit, Not An Argument (2.00 / 2)
Not surprising, really.

But it deserves to be pointed out.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
sigh (4.00 / 3)
I think I've done an excellent job of being civil in the face of being talked down to and accused of being racist, but you are so goddamn smug and self-righteous it's really, really hard to maintain.

I write that whole response, and that's all you have to say?  You blow me off dismissively?  You don't think that there's anything worth discussing or commenting on in anything that I wrote?

And an "exhibit" of what exactly?


[ Parent ]
You keep ignoring the point. (2.00 / 2)
And can I point out you haven't responded to anything I've said?

You keep trying to turn this into a story of personal racism and ignoring the issue of institutional racism. You keep pretending institutional racism does not exist.

Maybe Paul is right and you really can't see what is right in front of your eyes, no matter how many times or how many different ways it is explained.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
. (4.00 / 2)
You keep pretending institutional racism does not exist.

What?  I am not.

What I am doing is pointing out that because institutional racism does exist, it can be easy to make assumptions about individual situations.  And it can be easy to see it in every individual situation, which I think is ultimately counterproductive in the goal of eliminating it.


[ Parent ]
I've Been Writing About Context And Content, As Well Social Power (2.00 / 2)
And you've largely ignored those topics in their entirety.

It's difficult, in part, because I'm trying to illuminate systems of thought that are partly conscious, partly not, and what you wrote functions as a snapshot, which serves partly as a guide.

Now you return, and say, "Well, that's not exactly right."

And how this strikes me is that (a) you are genuinely trying to be fair and reasonable, but (b) you still can't see that patterns I'm describing, due to obsessive focus on the detail.

Which is why I regard the above as an exhibit, not an argument.  It presents a new snapshot.  But it doesn't address the core of what I'm driving at.

I don't mean to say you haven't given a better account of your thinking and your intention--and I should have said that right off.  (I often want to be brief in comments when I can, to do penance for such long diaries, I suppose, and sometimes I'm too brief.)

But that doesn't address the larger points I'm trying to make, and hoping that others will engage.

Indeed--paradoxically--the more innocent you are individually, the stronger my case becomes.  Because it's not about you, ccarollo, it's about the system of assumptions, expressions, perceptions, etc. you're acting within.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Unprofessional (4.00 / 2)
This diary, this comment, and many of the others you've made here have been really unprofessional.

You can't even take the guy's response seriously. That's condescending, elitist behavior that shouldn't have a place at Open Left.


[ Parent ]
thanks (4.00 / 2)
it's good to know I'm not alone.  It really feels like Paul's abusing his position of publicity on this one to have a one-sided "discussion" without any real interest in engaging me (or anyone else who happens to disagree with him).

[ Parent ]
A great post. (0.00 / 0)

One I hope I have the time to quote extensively


.ps (0.00 / 0)

I am a racist and a sexist.

Given the nature of our society I can hardly not be.


[ Parent ]
Ek (4.00 / 1)
The agita over at DKos not enough fer ya so you're looking for more here? Well, at least the trolls are fewer and more interesting. Also, not much worshipping going on. Folks here are simply too dumb to have mastered 1324th Degree Aikido Chess.

And I think that pretty much every person who's ever lived has had some prejudices against this or that group of people or type of person. It's in our social DNA. The real test is what one does with it, and whether one even recognizes and is willing to acknowledge it.

Dearth to the Great Orange Satan!

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton


[ Parent ]
I have been here.... (4.00 / 2)

a long, long time.

Ever since Chris left MyDD I think.

I'm a great admirer of Paul's and this piece made me dig up my password.

Besides, where else am I going to get my Sirota fix?


[ Parent ]
Yeah, I saw your low ID after I posted (4.00 / 1)
It's just that I've never seen your comments here myself, or at least don't recall it. Always cool when I come across a DKosser (I hate the term Kossack) on another blog. What would be really fun would be to see some on Greenwald's blog. Lots of "interesting" types (read: radical libertarians) over there who seem to like picking at each others' ideological naval lint.

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton

[ Parent ]
I cannot see DailyKos without hearing "daily chaos" in my head. (0.00 / 0)
It is as I hear it perfect. I am not endorsing any particular set of progressive allies positions, to be sure. (Nor now that I have written that do I reject any combination of said opinions out of hand either)

But the idea that some group has agreed to discuss at length the daily chaos of our times is more than pleasing to me.

Yes I know its not intended.

In my mistake about the site and its adherents, I have no idea what to call those so committed, chaoticians?


--

The government has a defect: it's potentially democratic. Corporations have no defect: they're pure tyrannies. -Chomsky


[ Parent ]
Paul, I really object to part of what you've done here, which I think is bad practice for anti-racists (4.00 / 2)
Part of what you have done is  singling out of particular people or comments for community castigation.  It is a wedge device that I assume you're using accidentally, but I think not only is it cruel to the two people that you've singled out for participating in cultural racism in an effort to attack institutional racism at OpenLeft , but it's also damaging to efforts to deal with racism as part of a broader set of problems.  Even if you think they were totally wrong and even if you think they were articulating racist sentiments and even if you think that this needed to be called out publicly (which is questionable), there are other ways to do it.

I know the obvious response - but the point of this whole post was to call attention to indirect racism and did so - but it doesn't do so in a holistic way that focuses on the person, focuses on treating people more or less racist equally, understanding why they might be more or less racist - in other words some of the content is off and the form does not match the basic message.

The truth is that multiculturalism DOES get used as a classist tool - among many other things - as well as to mask underlying biases on other fronts.  In this context, I think the approach that Julie took in presenting a very personal and direct and honest statement of beliefs - helping to make it MORe of a safe space rather than less - is more useful.


I Said Several Times (2.00 / 4)
that jar137 raised a valid point.  And I expressed the hope that he'd come to see how it had been raised in an unfair and damaging manner.

As for ccarollo, all I can say is that the aggressive assertion of white privilege--however subtle to the untrained eye--was just too much for me to take.

While I might agree with you in the abstract, there was nothing abstract about ccarollo's response.  And what's needed above all is to be very clear about specifics in order to properly ground more general claims.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
two things (0.00 / 0)
1) I should apologise for weighing in very strongly without looking at the context.  
2) I appreciate that you attempted to address the issue.
3) My main point was that if it is 'racism without racists' then why are you singling people out :) You can't will someone to understand their biases and you can't force someone who does understand their biases to address them (though I like to try) but you can put down boundaries.   If you believed it was the second i would have su8ggested putting down some boundaries or even instituting a community discussion for what 'be good to each other' means on race.  If it you believed it was the first, I would have sgugested replying offline, asking for contact information, or otherwise approaching this in a mmore supportive way, while also doing something to address institutional or indirect racism at OpenLeft.  

And of coures you're entitled to be psised off if you get offended - I hate it when people tell me not to be pissed off. But that doesn't mean that the actions you take as a consequence are necessarily the most effective in reducing racism in the world even if they're coming from a good place.  The  whole format of internet blogging is phenomenally poorly suited for engaging in effective antiracist work within communities- partly because it's so gendered, competitive, accusatory, and snarky,


[ Parent ]
the thing is (4.00 / 3)
It's totally clear based on the dismissive responses I've gotten both in this thread and the other thread that Paul isn't interested in having an actual discussion.  He's interested in misreading what I've been saying and using it to advance a point he'd like to make.  Nothing more.

I'd love to have a true discussion with Pual over this, because I think he's misreading my position significantly.  Unfortunately, he's not willing to.


[ Parent ]
have it with someone else (4.00 / 2)
there are many many things to consider in this issue and paul is just one guy.  I think Paul is great in general- I disagree with some of the things he's done in this post and I haven't and don't have the time to look at all the details of your conversations in this thread or the last one, but at the end of the day he's just one guy.  As you can see from your exchange with Sadie above, there are other responses you might receive, even from people who disagree with you.

Working on race and all other issues is a lifetime activity, and i've found that no one is perfect and everyone needs support - regardless of the particular role they've been placed in by life.  On some of those, we'll be in the more privileged categories and in others we'll be in the less privileged categories, as Sadie pointed out above.

Your conversation above reminds me of the South Park episode in which one of the White boys' fathers says the n* word on TV and he tries to apologies to the Black boy at school, who is mad.  He keeps trying to apologise until finally he realised - he doesn't get it.  And that's his breakthrough - he realises that he doesn't get it - that he doesn't grasp the life experience of the other person and what it's like - all the history, all the agony, all the perceptions that feed into something.  It's like asking a man to walk down a dark nearly empty street at night with one guy across the street and imagine what it's like to be a woman - it's next to impossible (all else equal).  It's like asking an American citizen what it's like to deal with American immigration officials - next to impossible.  Similarly, I think it is virtually impossible for someone to place themselves in the shoes of a Black person dealing with the police unless they themselves are Black or have otherwise come from some kind of community that has a tradition of being f"£ked over by the police (and others).

After a long time, I came to think that we can share some experiences and not others, and that we can celebrate our differences by letting each other speak, trying to empathise with each other, understanding that we can't always put ourselves in another person's shoes but we can still try to listen, and that there's a certain amount of humility that's required in trying to learn that what you assume is 'normal' is very different for another person.  But if we can build connections and relate our different stories and experiences to each other on an emotional level, rather than being kneejerk about it, we can learn to sort of see a bit more than we would otherwise.

It's hard.  And it takes a long time.  But it's worthwhile and your world can be a bit bigger by the end (if there is one :).  It's certainly more pleasant, because even though I walk around with feelings of continued imperfection, I also walk around feeling a bit better just for doing at least a little and with stronger relationships.  

Which helps because I am twice as likely to be stopped and searched for no reason as a white pesron by the police int he UK, where I am now - and it's good to vent. And also to remember that Black people are 3.5 times as likely as I am and seven times as likely as a White person to be stopped and searched for no reason.

Similarly, when I got called a dothead in a bar and hit with a people of ice and then told that that was okay becaduse 'i'm brown and he's white' and i was too dumb to realise that it was just a bunch of guys trying to start a fight and moved on - well it was nice that there were at least a few sympathetic bystanders some of whom were the same race as the people who slurred me.

and i always remember - because this is part of my role as a person of color who is not Black - that that's nothing compared to what a lot of Black people go through - or working class South Asians for that matter.

Anyway, i've digressed, but I just wanted to say and really show that if you ask, you'll receive, on the one condition that you demonstrate some openness to it :)


[ Parent ]
I make mistakes all the time. (0.00 / 0)
I an aminal for gods sake. Barely past snuffing for mushrooms cause they taste so good. (As many herein will eagerly attest)  I like to think that somewhere is an inborn, in all creatures, recognition of fairness that is easily extended to others. Only personal gain seems to rob of us that natural sanity.

That said, and judge yourself if it applies, and not in reference to the logic of critical analysis in any other argument of this diary, I have to say dr anonymous, that this a moving insightful response. I am sure we can all learn from this viewpoint and compassion.

--

The government has a defect: it's potentially democratic. Corporations have no defect: they're pure tyrannies. -Chomsky


[ Parent ]
the what? (4.00 / 2)
"Aggressive assertion of white privilege?"  What?  Do you really think I'm advocating white privilege?  Honestly?

Because I really don't think I am.  I'm making the point that when you start from the point where colorblind racism is everywhere, it's easy to see it appear in individual instances.  And what's more, it's easy to see it appear in every individual instance.  

That's not at all an argument for ignoring institutional racism and biases, or for preserving white privilege.


[ Parent ]
But the reality is (1.33 / 3)
colorblind racism IS everywhere.

To pretend it doesn't exist is, yeah, white privilege in a nutshell. Like I said before, if the shoe fits, wear it.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
Cut It Out, VLaszlo--You're Abusing The Troll Rating (1.33 / 3)
There was nothing troll ratable about Sadie's comment.

If you disagree, say so.

Better yet, say why.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
fwiw (4.00 / 1)
I totally agree.  Pretty lame to troll rate for that post.

[ Parent ]
What Sadie Said (4.00 / 1)
This is the nub of the whole argument.  You don't see it.  Fish don't see water.

It's not that you are advocatingwhite privilege (you're not), but you are asserting it when you recreate barriers to seeing outside and beyond it--even though you may do so totally unconsciously.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
but (4.00 / 1)
I don't see where I'm denying that white privilege or colorblind/institutional racism or exists.  I explicitly acknowledge that they do exist in multiple places, in fact.

I admit I do see your point in that requiring absolute proof of racism is a way of hiding that racism exist, or downplaying it's significance.  And I can see how my argument of not assuming racism can in some (many?) cases will cause people to assume a lack of racism when in fact a racial bias did exist.

But -- and this I think is the most interesting question -- what do we do about this?  How do we reconcile the fairness of innocent-until-proven-guilty in individual cases with the subtle and pervasive insidiousness of institutional racism?

I don't have a good answer for that.


[ Parent ]
There is nothing subtle (4.00 / 2)
about being handcuffed in your own home and arrested in front of your neighbors. Being "put in your place" as it were.

That said, I believe you are sincere when you ask "what do we do about this?"

My favorite approach is the one offered by Ricky Sherover-Marcuse:

STRATEGIES FOR BEING AN EFFECTIVE ALLY

  1. Assume that all people in your own group including yourself want to be allies to people in other groups. Assume that you are good enough and smart enough to be an effective ally. (This does not mean that you have nothing more to learn- see # 6, below.)

  2. Assume that you have a perfect right to be concerned with other people's liberation issues, and that it is in your own interest to do so and to be an ally.

  3. Assume that all people in the target group want you and members of your group as allies. Assume that they recognize you as such- at least potentially.

  4. Assume that any appearances to the contrary-(any apparent rejections of you as an ally) are the result of target group people's experience of oppression and internalized oppression.

  5. Assume that people in the target group are already communicating to you in the best way they can at the present time. Assume that they can and will do better. Think about how to assist them in this without making your support dependent upon their "improving" in any way. (Hint: think about what has been helpful for you when you were in the target group position).

  6. Assume that target group people are experts on their own experience, and that you have much to learn from them. Use your own intelligence and your own experience as a target group member to think about what the target group people might find useful.

  7. Recognize that as a non-target person you are an expert on the experience of having been conditioned to take the oppressor role. This means that you know the content of the lies which target group people have internalized. Don't let timidity force you into pretended ignorance.

  8. Assume that target group people are survivors and that they have a long history of resistance. Become an expert on this history and assist target group people to take full pride in it.

  9. Become an expert on all the issues which are of concern to people in the target group, especially the issues which are most closely tied in to their internalized oppression. Assume that making mistakes is part of the learning process of being an ever more effective ally. Be prepared for flare-ups of disappointment and criticism. Acknowledge and apologize for mistakes; learn from them, but don't retreat.

 10. Recognize that people in the target group can spot "oppressor-role conditioning"; do not bother with trying to "convince" them that this conditioning did not happen to you. Don't attempt to convince target group people that you "are on their side"; just be there.

 11. Do not expect "gratitude" from people in the target group; thoughtfully interrupt if it is offered to you. Remember, being an ally is a matter of your choice. It is not an obligation; it is something you get to do.

 12. Be a 100% ally; no deals; no strings attached: "I'll oppose your oppression if you oppose mine." Everyone's oppression needs to be opposed unconditionally.



Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
well (0.00 / 0)
I mean subtle in the sense that any racial influence in that situation is subtle and hard/impossible to prove.  The same kind of thing can and does happen to white people every day, for example.

I like your list of how to be an ally a lot, but #4 is the item I'm mostly taking issue with.  I'm unconvinced that the assumption of racism in all cases is something to be promoted.


[ Parent ]
What's helpful about that list (0.00 / 0)
is that nowhere does race or racism appear on it. It's all about target groups and oppressors.

Elsewhere Sherover-Marcuse points out that we have all been on both sides of that equation at one point or another. And you're right, working class white men do get treated pretty badly by cops from time to time as well. When that happens, they are members of the target group "working class."

But the general idea is that being a member of a target group is never an excuse oppress someone else, somewhere else. Instead we can choose to draw on our own experiences to learn how to become a better ally to other target groups.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
I guess (0.00 / 0)
I don't see why it's necessarily group-vs-group.

Should I assume that when I get stopped for speeding it's due to whatever "group" I happen to be a part of?  Why does everything have to be a group-vs-group situation?


[ Parent ]
Everyone is a member of a group. (0.00 / 0)
Like it or not that's the way the world works. I don't make the rules.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
well yeah (0.00 / 0)
of course everyone's a member of a group.  Everyone's a member of a lot of groups.  But that doesn't mean that every interaction is about that group, or is necessarily a manifestation of a group-vs-group tension.

Sometimes a traffic stop for a speeding ticket is just a traffic stop for a speeding ticket.  Sometimes it's not, admittedly.  But I disagree that there's always something more to it.


[ Parent ]
definitions (4.00 / 2)
Given a belief I have that it is predominantly actions and not people that are fit to be labeled "racist", I've thought long and hard about what it means to be a racist as a person rather than as an action.  I think that the lack of a consisstent and agreed upon definition combined with the power of the word are part of the  problem.  I think this is partly due to the fact that society has changed but the language of the progressive big tent has not kept up.

Racist as a noun can mean in different contexts:
1) Someone who consistently thinks in a way that leads them value or judge individuals because of their membership in a group
2) Someone who consistently thinks in a way that believes taht certain groups of people are biologically distinct from other groups on the basis of a set of ideas about skin color, physical features, attributed behaviors, etc.
3) Someone who perpetuates the ideas the idea that people can be placed into a ranked hierarchy on the basis of their skin color, language, or other cultural, phyiscal, or perceived features.

I could go on and on.  I think there are two conclusions that I've come to:

It is not useful to apply the word racist as a noun to individuals except in the most obvious of circumstances.

If it is going to be applied, which again should be very rarely whether by implication or explicitly, it should be on the basis of looking at a consistent pattern of actions.

A more important conclusion though is that the definition of 'racist' as a noun on the basis of a fairly disempowered person's ations is not as important as something else.  The category of people who do not 'act' racist in terms of actively discriminating against otherss but whose actions or underlying beliefs bolster the SYSTEM of racism in the U.S. int he world are more of a problem right now than a nonpoliticised person or unconcious personn.  

This is because racism is a widespread set of ideas and beliefs and cultures that penetrates to different degrees every single person in the United Staqte4s and probably anywhere in the world that has been exposed to European civilization over the past several centuries.  So the goal at this point has to be to figure out effective techniques of reducing the impact of that, breaking down the beliefs and values, etc.  

though most of the time, this system - which is what I'm calling racism -  is perpetuated either through total ignorance or quite deliberately by assholes, ironically and perversely - soemtimes it is what is done in the name of anti-racist strategy that perpetuates the system.  It is the 'assholes' in this context that I would call racists - the ones who deliberately perpetuate social racism.

I know this is a convoluted argument, and it is ripe for cooption by rightwing groups, which is why I wouldn't post it anywhere where i didn't trust other people to at least be committed to the value of anti-racism, but  think it is true.  I think more harm is done right now on a  social level by shouting down symbolic acts of direct racism rather than by considering what the most effective tactic is in a given situation and behaving accordingly - for example a communtiy conversation with clearly laid down rules with the approrpiately skilled facilitators coordinating it and groundrules that everyone agre4es upon.    In other words, increasing social cohesion among the community concerned has to be part of dealing with race, or else you reinvigorate those divisions that allowed the last 30 years of republican and clintonistic politics.

Anyone who has been subjectd to racism in their life knwos that this is what we always do - or learn to do depending on the extent to which it is done - that we have to make judgements in the situation.  But that's more from a survival instinct or becaduse we have time or don't have time or because we're used to being shat on all the time and are deepressed.  and sometimes we're off and sometimes we're on and we might see race because we've been subjected to it before or we might see it beause we've been subjected to it before but only rarely.  It's complicated.  

Finally, and not as an addendum, but as something central, I have to say that America is obsessed with race and to some extent LGBT issues right now in its politics, but there are other issues that need to be integrated into this - most notably class, btu also gender, disability status, age, status, and other thigns.  This is NOT an argument to ignore race and if anyone takes it as such to justify their own racism, I will be pissed - it is an argument for developing a broadbased movement that includes and links people on understanding that a very small groups of people completely benefits from social hierarchies, a lot of people occupy various places - up on this hierarchy, down on this one, and then there are people who are at or near the bottom on all measures.


A Shift (4.00 / 2)
I used to feel much more like you describe here:

I think there are two conclusions that I've come to:

It is not useful to apply the word racist as a noun to individuals except in the most obvious of circumstances.

If it is going to be applied, which again should be very rarely whether by implication or explicitly, it should be on the basis of looking at a consistent pattern of actions.

What's shifted for me was a growing awareness of how persistent racism is implicated in conservative hegemony.  The spectacle of racists like Limbaugh, Beck, Gingrich and Sessions accusing Obama and Sotomayor of being "racists" is the epitome of what I'm talking about, and it confirmed my belief that by disarming ourselves of the word, we were ceding ground to the right for no good reason.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
oh we should definitely apply it to the ones of those people i've followed closely (4.00 / 3)
e.g. limbaugh and beck consistently consistently act think and behave like fuckers - and while Lou dobbs is marginally coming from a better place in that he is speaking to a working class consciousness, framing it in racist and xenophobic terms makes him pretty much the same.  

i think we are approaching this from different standpoints (i used to throw the word around more and not be as careful in how i used it - and i still need to work harder on it in terms of understqnading how much poewr you're wielding with a word like that).

racism is explicitly and actively present in conservative politics, both in the 20% or so nutty segment that mnakes up the Birther movement / supporters of Palin as well as in the leadership that has real power and promotes this kind of absurd and nonsense.  it's perhaps less so than it was because there has been a societal shift away from reagan s6tyle politics of doublespeak, that smarter conservatives and the market have recognised.  the worst people, i was arguing, are the people who are not necessarily bigots in their personal lives but who actively promote racism as a system.  Some people do both, where it is most clearcut that they need to be contained (Trent Lott comes to mind).

However, in order to avoid the cycle of pro-rights and then anti-rights there needs to be work done to bring together people with common interests across racial lines, which inbcludes smart anti-racist activities.


[ Parent ]
Gates arrest SO obviously about 'You will respect my AUTHORITAH!' (0.00 / 0)
Directing the discussion toward racism is forced and just doesn't work.

How about the gay white man who was just arrested on Friday for saying "I hate the police" within earshot of DC's finest? This stuff is epidemic, and happening to everyone.

Me, I'm reviewing my videotapes of South Park and Reno 911.


While it was wrong, the circumstance of trying to force an incident are so obvoius that they undermine the message of its ubiquitousness. (0.00 / 0)
Three or more men, purposely, standing across the street, from some police in a police action. (The situation is not described in any fashion in any report I read) while jumping up and down yelling "I hate the police" is a non natural situtation.

It is protected speech, to be sure, but hardly a teaching moment if I might be so punny.

--

The government has a defect: it's potentially democratic. Corporations have no defect: they're pure tyrannies. -Chomsky


[ Parent ]
Again to be clear, I am reffering to the person identified in fairleft's (0.00 / 0)
post as as gay man, who I have only seen identified as a lawyer among other lawyers, and not to the Gates debacle.

The Gates debacle was a case of rankism, and "respect my authoritah!"ism, that would not have happened to a rich white man. Teddy Kennedy asking in an ever rising tone, what the hell the Policeman was still doing there acting in a continued authoritarian way, would not have been arrested, would not have been allowed to have been arrested by the police officers co-workers, would have been easily seen as a victim, without argument from the rational press corps. Fox would have said it proves that Teddy is still babies and grandmothers and the coverup has to stop.

--

The government has a defect: it's potentially democratic. Corporations have no defect: they're pure tyrannies. -Chomsky


[ Parent ]
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