Fighting Bad Logic With Bad Logic

by: Chris Bowers

Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 14:44


Matthew Yglesias has some fun at my expense:

Chris Bowers is right that people should be less averse to primaries, but this is a terrible logical fallacy:

All Democrats, all progressives, and really all Americans need to stop thinking that primaries are a bad thing. Since primaries are elections, such a belief is literally the same as thinking that elections are a bad thing.

Compare: All Americans really need to stop thinking that disease-infested rats are a bad thing. Since disease-infested rats are animals, such a belief is literally the same as thinking that animals are bad. Why do you hate pandas?

Its true--I made a fallacious argument.  I incorrectly argued that attributing a negative value to a subset (primaries) or a larger set (elections) is that same as attributing a negative value to the larger set.

However, while what I wrote was a logical fallacy, Yglesias actually mocked it with a fallacy of his own. He wrote that attributing negative value to a subset (disease-infested) of a larger subset (rats) of a still-larger set (animals) is the same as attributing negative value to the still-larger set.

Had I wrote that attacking Democratic Party primaries is that same thing as attacking elections, then his analogy would work. However, I did not make the Democratic Party primaries" specification in the two sentences Yglesias cites--I only wrote "primaries." Further, had Yglesias mocked me by saying that attacking rats is the same thing as attacking animals such as pandas, then he would have been correct. However, he wrote "disease-infested rats" instead.

Anyway, leaving the specifics of two poorly written sentences aside, the central thesis of my article was that one of the main reasons Democrats who hold publicly elected office are often unresponsive to the desires of Democratic Party voters is because, in the vast majority of cases, Democratic Party voters do not determine Democratic nominees for elected offices. Rather, such determinations are more commonly made by donors, party officials, or a combination of both. As such, Democrats who hold elected office are often more responsive to the desires of the donors and party officials then they are to Democratic voters.

The extent to which Democratic elected officials are often unresponsive to the political desires of Democratic Party voters is certainly debatable. Still, it strikes me as a fairly safe proposition that when Democrats--whether in the grassroots or the leadership--work against competitive primaries, they are working against one of the main, if not the main, safeguards against Democratic elected officials becoming unresponsive to Democratic voters.

But, for the record, I hate pandas because I have a bamboo fetish.

Chris Bowers :: Fighting Bad Logic With Bad Logic

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what do you think (0.00 / 0)
of Tinklenberg's blaming his withdrawal from the Minnesota race on having to waste time/money on a primary? Is the truth:

1. He didn't think he could win the primary
2. Running 2 races is too much work
3. He got a good job offer


Not sure (0.00 / 0)
I was just trying to use that as a jumping off point. The commenter who wrote that I had a good point but used a bad example might be right.

Or not. I don't know what happened. I just know that the DFL voters in that district didn't end up choosing the nominee.


[ Parent ]
I agree. (4.00 / 1)
when Democrats--whether in the grassroots or the leadership--work against competitive primaries, they are working against one of the main, if not the main, safeguards against Democratic elected officials becoming unresponsive to Democratic voters

Which allows them to be corproate Dems.


Yes if we dont organize the choosing of candidates, then someone else will. (4.00 / 1)
This is so obvious as to be completely unnecessary to say. Yet it is the basic thing missed by any individual, policy advocate(s), disaffected group and the press.

Someone is going to choose the candidate. If you dont do it, someone else will. If it isn't done through a open, transparent and democracy based system, then it will be done in a closed, opaque and insider/player based system.

Without rancor, without any kind of snark or sarcasm and without in any way suggesting that third parties seem like or promise to be a solution to progressives admirable desire to get real people issues to the front, and then dealt with in the way they want them dealt with:

Why the hell is it easier to start a new party, run a new party, keep a new party operating the way we want --WITHOUT doing all the work necessary to get the same things done inside the Democratic Party. It work, hard work.

Primaries can be organized, even whent 'they' don't want you to. Sestak looks on target to an upset, if the people demanding better democrats works hard enough. This is how its done. Just saying, "we thought they would be better" or "they betrayed me" isn't political activity.


--

The government has a defect: it's potentially democratic. Corporations have no defect: they're pure tyrannies. -Chomsky


[ Parent ]
This bamboo fetish ... (4.00 / 2)
This is news to me ;)

GGG (0.00 / 0)


--

The government has a defect: it's potentially democratic. Corporations have no defect: they're pure tyrannies. -Chomsky


[ Parent ]
Eh (4.00 / 1)
Your point was clear enough.

Is that what's it come to over at MY's place, nitpicking?

He should concern himself with more important fallacies, like his believing that the war in Afghanistan is worth fighting.


Or Lemos's completely lame support of the Honduran Military Coup (0.00 / 0)
there are good diaries but its like a discount store, some good finds mixed in with a little wtf.

--

The government has a defect: it's potentially democratic. Corporations have no defect: they're pure tyrannies. -Chomsky


[ Parent ]
What I took away from this post... (0.00 / 0)
BLOOOGGER FIIIGHT!!!!

PIE!

FIGHT!

PIE!

FIGHT!

PIE!

FIGHT!

PIE!

FIGHT!

Our Dime Understanding the U.S. Budget


It's very obvious that the narrow point of logic is not the salient issue here (0.00 / 0)
So please don't read this! But just to waste some time: Yglesias' counter-example wasn't fallacious. There wasn't any stipulation anywhere about the relevance of given taxonomical levels. Primaries are undeniably a sub-set of elections, and disease-infected rats are undeniably a sub-set of animals, and that's all that matters. You could divvy those sets into subsets and subsubsets however you want: disease-infected rats are a subset of rats, which are a subset of mammals, which are a subset of vertebrates, which are a subset of animals; or you could say that primaries are a second-order subset of elections - they are a subset of elections involving political parties, for example, which are a subset of elections. But Yglesias' counter-example is still logically equivalent.

I told you not to read this.


Logic is fun (0.00 / 0)
Matt's logic is fine actually. Disease infected rats is still a subset of the larger set (animals). The fact that disease-infected rats is also a subset of two large subsets of animals (rats and disease-infected) has no bearing on whether or not it is an error to generalize from a subset to the entire set. The set of primaries is also a subset of sets which are in turn subsets of the set of all elections (primaries+ the General Presidential Election of 1988, for example). Matt's example didn't parallel your writing as well as it could have but the example successfully demonstrates the fallacy.

Not that anyone cares.


I care (0.00 / 0)
And I agree and logic is fun.

I also agree that he successfully demonstrated that what I wrote is a fantasy, and I also agree that what he wrote did not serve as a direct analogy to what I wrote (or parrallel, in your words.)

Thanks for your comment. I wish I remembered how to translate sentences into logical notation. Maybe I'll dig up my old logic textbook tonight. :)


[ Parent ]
Again, the bamboo fetish thing (0.00 / 0)
Chris,

Read your post, got it, agree there is a logic flaw, don't care. You are right. Primary, primary, primary, I am with you on this.

But the bamboo fetish issue with the pandas, ROFLMAO!!!!

And you did not tell Natasha???  My wife would really get me for non-disclosure issue. Much worse than anything MY could ever do or say. Because she counts much, much more.

Again, thanks for the humor, I needed it. I just got off of the phone explaining to my 74 yr old Mother that her health care is provided by the government, and the Doctor who told her that she would pay more for universal health care might have had his own interest at heart, for the 43rd time this year.  


[ Parent ]
as for your original post (0.00 / 0)
Regarding elected representatives being unresponsive to dem voters and our absence of method to reach then (without large amounts of money), it seems that Nancy's tool would be ideal for this purpose. This use alone makes her method extreeeemly valuable, and it can do so much more. Hopeing this can be implemented; something has to change if our system of government is to be reinstated as it was before the near total failure it has become in the last 40 years.

Government by organized money is just as dangerous as government by organized mob..... FDR

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