what a country (4.00 / 1)

now not only do all the industrialized nations have health care for all their citizens but china will as well, and we still claim we are the shining light on the hill of all the nations, we must stop believing our own propaganda before its too late, if it isn't already.

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by: pc @ Wed Aug 12, 2009 at 00:36:37 AM UTC

That commie shit just ain't the American way (4.00 / 1)

Obama:

There are countries where a single-payer system may be working. But I believe - and I've even taken some flak from members of my own party for this belief - that it is important for us to build on our traditions here in the United States.

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by: david mizner @ Wed Aug 12, 2009 at 00:39:40 AM UTC

I agree with him (0.00 / 0)

I know, I'm a corporatist or whatever.  

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by: DTOzone @ Wed Aug 12, 2009 at 00:46:49 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

What do you agree with? (0.00 / 0)

That single payer doesn't flow from American traditions, or that this is a reason to oppose single-payer?

In any case, how can you argue with a straight face that Medicare for All doesn't jibe with American traditions?

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by: david mizner @ Wed Aug 12, 2009 at 01:01:39 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

That single payer wouldn't work now (0.00 / 0)

that such a draconian change in policy needs to be implemented gradually...that nationalizing an entire industry in the middle of an economic crisis is not a smart idea unless the industry is already in dire straits, and even then I'm personally skeptical...our tradition is, whether we like it or not, is private competition, even if there is a government run option (Post Office, Schools, etc.).

If we want to change tradition, that's another story, but that doesn't happen overnight.  

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by: DTOzone @ Wed Aug 12, 2009 at 01:16:37 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Well, if you're using the post office (0.00 / 0)

as an example, then a system that would flow from American tradition would be something like England's health care system, with a dominant government system with private options.

If leaving Insurance Company regime in place is, in fact, American tradition, it needs to be changed.

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by: david mizner @ Wed Aug 12, 2009 at 01:28:39 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Actually that's not how England's system works (0.00 / 0)

I lived in England for seven years, that's not how it works...you're describing the Canadian system, there's a difference. Private healthcare plans in England are rare and are usually obtained for specialist treatment (for example, if you're into holistic medicine, want to avoid rationing, or if you travel outside England for treatment)

An example of English rationing btw would be if you had a medical treatment and it didn't work, the NHS won't cover another unless it's life threatening (this is how the "death panel" rumor got started). Example; you have a degenerative eye disease and are going blind, you have a cornia transplant, it doesn't work, you want another, the NHS might say "you know, it's pointless because it's not going to work, so we won't cover it"

A person like this might obtain private insurance to cover another cornia transplant.

When I lived there, employer based insurance was unheard of, only recently is it starting to make an appearance and largely in higher incomes.  

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by: DTOzone @ Wed Aug 12, 2009 at 02:02:53 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

You described the French system, not the English (0.00 / 0)

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by: Mark Matson @ Wed Aug 12, 2009 at 02:45:01 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Canada (4.00 / 2)

went from a system essentially the same as America's to a single payer system and did it essentially overnight.  Worked just fine.  There were some bumps on the road, but nothing massive.

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by: Ian Welsh @ Wed Aug 12, 2009 at 03:43:47 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

overnight? (0.00 / 0)

Saskatchewan set up a single payer system for their province long before it became national. Alberta followed suit.

And I believe that the best way to prepare the country for a federal single payer system is to allow the states to set them up if they chose to.  

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by: DTOzone @ Wed Aug 12, 2009 at 06:31:46 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

In his defense (0.00 / 0)

Evans was a strong support of universal single payer healthcare when he was in Congress.  

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by: DTOzone @ Wed Aug 12, 2009 at 00:45:27 AM UTC

public option (0.00 / 0)

force Americans to spend thousands of dollars to buy insurance from insurance companies

This is not true for every version that includes a public option.  Those required to buy insurance (i.e., those that don't already have it) are exactly the same people who are allowed buy into the public option.

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by: Mark Matson @ Wed Aug 12, 2009 at 00:46:32 AM UTC

Rarely has it been stated better and more succintly: (4.00 / 1)

America's elites just try and make sure the gravy train isn't upset for anyone who's inside the franchise.

I'm going to return to crying, now.

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by: Oaktown Girl @ Wed Aug 12, 2009 at 03:26:37 AM UTC

This may have been posted before, but I'm just now (4.00 / 2)

seeing it, and I think it's very, very good. It probably  helps that I'm just (barely) old enough to remember Laugh In, and really loved Tomlin's Operator character when I was a kid. I hope this plays well to the younger crowd, too.

Here's a link to their site:
http://www.californiaonecare.org/

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by: Oaktown Girl @ Wed Aug 12, 2009 at 03:51:51 AM UTC

Excellent! (0.00 / 0)

Who is running for Governor on sanity, the environment, progressive taxation and healthcare?

Is there a competent progressive running?

--

The government has a defect: it's potentially democratic. Corporations have no defect: they're pure tyrannies. -Chomsky

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by: HousesofProgress @ Wed Aug 12, 2009 at 13:04:55 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

I believe the Mayor of SF, Gavin Newsome (0.00 / 0)

has formally announced. And that's likely as liberal as we're going to get. There's no state-wide instant runoff voting, so 3rd parties for a statewide office are not viable.  

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by: Oaktown Girl @ Wed Aug 12, 2009 at 15:11:00 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Not that I dont wish him well, he seems to have a spine. (0.00 / 0)

But a massive campaign to rebuild California from the ground up, "Fix this damn State" would be a game changer.

Its broken, its twisted purposefully so that a government cant run and it needs deep reform. Starting with not vetoing Single Payer.

--

The government has a defect: it's potentially democratic. Corporations have no defect: they're pure tyrannies. -Chomsky

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by: HousesofProgress @ Wed Aug 12, 2009 at 15:21:29 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Let's just go ahead and toss this question out there (4.00 / 2)

Is there anyone here who would actually prefer to live in China than the U.S.?  If so, why?

Things You Don't Talk About in Polite Company: Religion, Politics, the Occasional Intersection of Both

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by: Anthony de Jesus @ Wed Aug 12, 2009 at 03:54:22 AM UTC

Are you joking? Is this Rove? (0.00 / 0)

You ask a question like that here, and one wonders what your purpose is. China is an authoritarian capitalist state, with pretensions to being left, as non North American sates almost always do. Pretend to be socialist or commie or whatever, while driving tankls over students.

Naomi Klien's book The Shock Doctrine, popints out quite clearly that the destruction of the democracy movement was just the best way to make sure everyone knew, resist and die.

Ian does not cite China's announcement as proof of some quality of populist feeling, but as evidence that 'even' china has to pretend to be doing something about the right to healthcare, while the crazy crazy party here, and their Blue dog defendrs cant even do that. Or so I assume thats what he intended.

--

The government has a defect: it's potentially democratic. Corporations have no defect: they're pure tyrannies. -Chomsky

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by: HousesofProgress @ Wed Aug 12, 2009 at 15:27:22 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Are you seriously (0.00 / 0)

comparing freedom in China with freedom in the United States?

China isn't authoritation, it's totalitarian.

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by: fladem @ Wed Aug 12, 2009 at 17:55:05 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

No I am not, and you are correct, totalitarian is the right word (0.00 / 0)

totalitarian capitalist

I thought my [post regarding China as distopia was enough, sorry for using authoritarian though.

--

The government has a defect: it's potentially democratic. Corporations have no defect: they're pure tyrannies. -Chomsky

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by: HousesofProgress @ Wed Aug 12, 2009 at 18:26:04 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Does Ian Welsh understand third-grade math? (0.00 / 0)

That's when a lot of people learn to multiply and divide, but apparently Mr. Welsh missed out on those higher cognitive functions.

China announced that it intended to spend $123 billion by 2011 to establish universal health care for the country's 1.3 billion people.

That grand plan comes out to about $95 per person.

Universal healthcare for

$95 per person in China.

And Ian Welsh is celebrating this horseshit!

This is why China is a rising country, for all its problems, and the US is a country in decline.  

This guy makes Paul Rosenberg look like a genius, and that's a very significant accomplishment, because Paul Rosenberg makes a turnip look like a genius.

So tell us, Mr. Welsh...

What kind of "universal healthcare" can you buy for $95 per person?

(And no, Chuckles, I don't expect an answer.)

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by: Jacob Freeze @ Wed Aug 12, 2009 at 03:54:34 AM UTC

Nobody in China believes the CCP's garbage numbers! (0.00 / 0)

The National Bureau of Statistics is facing even more criticism over its data on unemployment and wages. The official Global Times reported that the public reacted with "banter and sarcasm" when the NBS released figures showing the average urban wage in China rose 13 percent in the first half to $US2,142. The newspaper cited an online survey showing 88 percent of respondents doubted the statistics.

Likewise in AsiaTimesOnline...

China's National Bureau of Statistics (NBS) has with its latest release of economic data again become a target of public censure for suspected fabrication of statistics. This time, even state-run media are making high-pitched criticism, slamming "too-good-to-be-true" figures for aggravating a "crisis of confidence" in government numbers.

So when the CCP announces grand plans with ridiculous figures to support them, it's probably fair to say that almost nobody in the world believes them, except for...

Ian Welsh and few other kiddies who can't do the math.

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by: Jacob Freeze @ Wed Aug 12, 2009 at 04:30:49 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

People who cast stones about other people's ignorance (0.00 / 0)

should know what they're talking about first.  $95/person goes a fair ways in China, and China already provides a subsidy.

How far does it go?

Then, with the help of a translator, she went to an outpatient clinic at Wuhan University Hospital. She was examined, diagnosed and treated in less than one hour. She had feared primitive conditions and scant supplies, but encountered an efficient, patient-friendly system. She saw both a dermatologist and an ophthalmologist who worked in a well-organized setting, including computer tracking of each patient. The doctors confirmed the diagnosis of shingles, and they set out a regimen of treatment.

After that, she was straight off to the billing window - the visit with the two doctors totaled 8 Yuan, little more than $1. And then another quick stop at the pharmacy, where she filled four prescriptions. The bill: 136 Yuan, about $17.

What Paul Rosenberg probably understands, but you apparently don't, is that $97 goes a lot further in China than it does in America.

They teach that in a later grade than grade 3, which must be why you aren't aware of it.

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by: Ian Welsh @ Wed Aug 12, 2009 at 06:23:55 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Welsh isn't just a sucker, he's a liar, too. (0.00 / 0)

There's a sucker born every minute, or every nanosecond in China...But even with its humongous population there can't be more than two or three suckers who suck as hard as Ian Welsh and Paul Rosenberg...

Although in Rosenberg's favor I have to say that he doesn't try to pass off unsubstantiated reports from friends of somebody as evidence of anything.

And where did the author of Ian Welsh's glowing anecdote about Chinese healthcare obtain the "evidence?"

The latest case I've come across is a report from a close friend who just back from the central Chinese city of Wuhan -  

Nameless close friend... what a brilliant source!

And when "Nameless Close Friend" says she saw "both a dermatologist and an ophthalmologist," she would know that both of them were qualified medical professionals somehow, but...

...she had no idea of how the Chinese medical system works, and doesn't speak Mandarin.

Yes indeed, if you're looking for an authority about Chinese medicine, and you're too fucking stupidto look anywhere but a couple of search returns on Google, you can find an "expert" who has "no idea of how the Chinese medical system works, and doesn't speak Mandarin."

Harharharhar!!!

And who was this person who can instantly find a "translator" in Wuhan?

We don't know.

Who was the translator?

We don't know.

Was the translator a government employee, like the translators who typically accompany large tour-groups in China?

We don't know.

Did the tour agency (if that's what it was) also have it's own medical insurance for touring Americans who might get sick?

We don't know.

And so on.

And what do real authorities like actual doctors report about Chinese healthcare in the Lancet, for example?

The UK-based medical journal, The Lancet, is launching a major series of scientific papers in Beijing on China's plans for healthcare reform.

Primary healthcare, especially for the poor, disintegrated in recent decades when the old state system was dismantled and medical fees introduced.
Healthcare is a top public complaint - many cannot get access to it or simply cannot afford it. Many of the 700 million people in the countryside have to travel to cities to get decent care.

Bill Summerskill, the Lancet's executive editor, says the current system just is not working.

"More than half the money comes out of pocket. And if people end up in hospital, the average hospitalisation is greater than an average person's wage," he told the BBC.

"China is facing a real problem with this new phenomenon of health poverty. Where people either can't afford to get the care or else, having received the care, are then bankrupted by it," he added.

And why couldn't all those doctors for the Lancet find the paradise of Chinese medicine which the moron Ian Welsh described on the basis of phony evidence?

This was a wonderful place where a walk-in can instantly see two specialists, not just general practitioners or internists, but both a dermatologist and an ophthalmologist "little more than $1?"

No such place exists, and Ian Welsh's attempt to paint a completely phony picture of Chinese healthcare is pathetic and dishonest.  

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by: Jacob Freeze @ Wed Aug 12, 2009 at 10:45:06 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

The most telling statement in the Lancet piece (0.00 / 0)

Primary healthcare, especially for the poor, disintegrated in recent decades when the old state system was dismantled and medical fees introduced.

Seems health care in China went downhill when the state system was dismantled and people had to start paying a personal fee to their doctors.  There you have it.  When they had a state system, the care was good.  Now, it's only available to those who can afford to pay for it.  

You completely missed the point of the Lancet article.  It didn't say the health care was bad for the people who could afford it.  It said it was bad for those who couldn't afford it because they don't have access to it.

Another conservative without analytical thinking abilities.

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by: 4thePeople @ Wed Aug 12, 2009 at 17:04:08 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

"4thePeople," yet another illiterate pseudonym (0.00 / 0)

Another conservative without analytical thinking abilities.

If you could read, moron, you might have noticed that I didn't make any assertion whatsoever about the superiority of private healthcare over public systems like the NHS in England, and if you had bothered to check, chump, you would know that I support single-payer healthcare in the United States.

Neither of those issues is relevant to Ian Welsh's celebration of Chinese healthcare as it now exists... did you bother to read his ridiculous link to an anonymous anecdote?... or his ludicrous credulity about the authenticity of that putative $123 billion healthcare initiative, which is likely to be just as bogus as the rest of the numbers which constantly flow out of Beijing, only to be laughed down by everybody in China, including even the state-owned media, as I demonstrated in my links, and it would be simple for you to find a thousand others like them, if only you could Google a simple search.

And... your silly objection is even less relevant to my claim that $95 per person is an absurdly small amount of money to replace the miserable system now in place with anything that any reasonable person would call "universal healthcare."

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by: Jacob Freeze @ Wed Aug 12, 2009 at 19:02:26 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

I find it interesting (0.00 / 0)

that you forget that China is a totalitarion state.  

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by: fladem @ Wed Aug 12, 2009 at 17:56:49 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

As much as I think Jacob Freeze is a nutjob (0.00 / 0)

he sorta made one important point...just because China does it doesn't make it necessarily good. Does anyone really believe the Chinese government is out to give the best healthcare to all it's 1 billion plus citizens?

I think not.

North Korea technically has universal health care too lol

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by: DTOzone @ Wed Aug 12, 2009 at 06:34:34 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Which "Jacob Freeze" is that? (0.00 / 1)

Would that be...

"Jacob Freeze, the prophetic wonderman of political blogging?"

Harharharhar!!!

And apparently it's the same "Jacob Freeze" who always has a reasonable source for every claim he makes, while the best a chump like DTOzone can do is a lame-ass comparison between China and North Korea, apparently because "all those Asians look alike."

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by: Jacob Freeze @ Wed Aug 12, 2009 at 10:58:23 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

lol (0.00 / 0)

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by: DTOzone @ Wed Aug 12, 2009 at 15:31:05 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Now that (0.00 / 0)

is the kind of message that really communicates! We need a whole lot more of it.

No matter how cynical you become, you just can't keep up - Lily Tomlin

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by: DeanOR @ Wed Aug 12, 2009 at 05:09:09 AM UTC