Going After Michael Lind With Occam's Razor

by: Paul Rosenberg

Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 08:30


I'll have a lot more to say about this in a later post.  But I just have to get this off my chest.  (h/t William Timberman in quick hits .)

On Tuesday, Michael Lind posted an article at Salon, "Are liberals seceding from sanity? The left is crazy to insult white Southerners as a group".  In it, he used a brief blog post from Kevin Drum to tee off his whole argument.  There's a whole lot wrong with Lind's post that I intend to get into later.  But first I want to establish one simple point: the entire argument is disingenuous, as can be seen by comparing Drum's piece to the way that Lind misrepresents it.  Lind ignores the simplest explanation of what Drum is saying, because otherwise he has nothing to hang his injured Southern pride on.

Here's how Lind sets it up:

In a recent Washington Post column, Kathleen Parker quoted Ohio Sen. George Voinovich's assertion that the Republican Party is "being taken over by Southerners" to suggest that the GOP risks becoming a permanent minority party of the old Confederacy. In itself this is a legitimate point that I and many other critics of Republican conservatism have made for years. However, at Mother Jones, the blogger Kevin Drum used Parker's political argument as an excuse for all-too-typical liberal Southern-bashing. According to Drum: "There are, needless to say, plenty of individual Southern whites who are wholly admirable. But taken as a whole, Southern white culture is [redacted]. Jim Webb can pretty it up all he wants, but it's a [redacted]." Drum did the redacting on his own blog post, explaining he'd blacked out the offending text "on the advice of my frontal lobe."

Drum's creepy bigotry becomes clear when other groups are substituted: "There are, needless to say, plenty of individual blacks who are wholly admirable. But taken as a whole, black culture is [redacted]. Barack Obama can pretty it up all he wants, but it's a [redacted]." Or maybe this: "There are, needless to say, plenty of individual Jews who are wholly admirable. But taken as a whole, Jewish culture is [redacted]. The late Irving Howe can pretty it up all he wants, but it's a [redacted]."

The way Lind puts it, it can sound pretty damning.  "Bigotry" might even seem an appropriate label.  But Drum was actually far, far closer to Parker--whom Lind claims to agree with--than Lind lets on.

Paul Rosenberg :: Going After Michael Lind With Occam's Razor
editorial sloppiness--something that happens to bloggers around the world on a second-by-second basis. He wrote "Southern white culture" when he should have written "Southern white political culture", just because he should have known that someone like Lind would pounce on him, otherwise.

Here's the entirety of Drum's post following his quote of Parker:

Well, look, I like magnolia groves and bluegrass music too, but let's call a spade a spade.  Parker never actually uses the word "white" in her column, but later on she makes it clear that's what she's talking about.  Not "the South."  Not "Southern Republicans."  Southern whites.

Parker says Republicans need to "drive a stake through the heart of old Dixie," and she's right.  The rest of us need to help.

NOTE: Penultimate paragraph redacted on advice of my frontal lobe.

Clearly, Drum is saying that he doesn't hate the South, or even White South per se.  It's the political culture he's talking about here.  That's what "old Dixie" means.  And one most certainly can critique an entire political culture without slurring or slandering anyone.  It is true, for example, that Jewish Israeli political culture is profoundly racist, whoever tries to pretty it up.  The evidence for this statement is simply overwhelming, and the best Israeli Jews are tortured by the knowledge that it is true. This is proper sort of analogy that Lind should have used for his argument, since "Jewish Israeli" is precisely the same sort of cultural-geographic group term that Drum used.  Not "Jewish culture", not "black culture," but "Jewish Israeli political culture."

But if Lind used a term like that, his entire argument would fall apart, because there's a world of difference between sweeping derogatory statements about "Jewish culture" carrying clear implications of an essential biologically-grounded evil, and much more focused, factually-defensible statements about "Jewish Israeli political culture", which carry no such essentialist implications.  

Let's be clear about what's going on here.  Lind is a White Southerner, and he's feeling more than a little bit defensive.  With good reason, I suppose.  But it's time for him to let it go.  The White South is politically screwed up in a way that far surpasses the rest of nation, as screwed up as other places may be.  And it would be truly cathartic for him to finally be able to admit it.  Maybe then he could see clearly enough to start doing something really effective to change things.

Because that's where Drum and I-and all the other progressive folks Lind goes on to slander in his article-differ from the bigots he says we shouldn't offend.  We believe that people can take charge of their lives, and fundamentally change who they are.  We know there are millions and millions of bigots born and raised who have thrown off their bigotry-many of them in the White South today.  Those people have a lot to be proud of.  We just want the rest of the White South to join them.

In fact, it's way past time we let folks like Lind pose as defenders of worthy downtroden Southern whites.  First off, the better off Southern Whites are, the more Republican they are.  So it's not the most economically downtrodden Whites who are the biggest problem (more on this in an upcoming post.)  Second, nothing makes Southern Whites more downtrodden than the backscatter from white supremacy.  It's progressives like me who stand in solidarity with Southern progressives of all races who are the real defenders of worthy downtroden Southern whites. And by that I mean those who've had the guts to reject the rotten political culture they were born into and raised in.  They are the White Southerners worthy of everyone's honor and support.  


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Not to speak off that Lind is grossly exaggerating in his headline (4.00 / 2)
"Are liberals seceding from sanity? The left is crazy to insult white Southerners as a group"
Not "one liberal", or "some liberals", just "liberals". And not "one left wing blogger", or "some left wingers", but "the left". This means all of us. And what has Lind to offer as evidence for this broad claim? One sowmehat liberal columnist and one somewhat left wing blogger. D'oh. Regardless if those examples hold water or not (Paul showed, rather not), this is ridiculous! And Lind doesn't even try to show that Parker and Drum are representative for "the left". This is bullshitting, pure and simple, and this crap isn't worth to be taken seriously at all. Period.

One more point: Just imagine... (4.00 / 2)
..Lind's outrage if anyone on the Left would have written a story headlined "Are Southerners seceding from sanity? The South is crazy to insult liberals as a group"
:D

[ Parent ]
Having said that, I still don't support going after someone with a razor! (4.00 / 2)
Even if it's of this obscure Occam brand, whose products have often shown to be blunt. Maybe because they are too often used with disregard to the instructions, dunno...

(I prefer UBIK® razors. UBIK®, the brand you can trust! Enjoy that great feeling of a smooth shave every morning.
Please read instructions before usage)


[ Parent ]
Peter Tosh Speaks For Me! (4.00 / 2)


"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
But I regress.... (4.00 / 2)
In a world of razors, offense is often understood to be the best form of defense. This is a misperception which even Ubik lacks the power to set right. We might try Buddhism, I suppose, but even Buddhism can be iffy when confronted by nuclear weapons, or by the Dept. of Homeland Security.

[ Parent ]
Patience, My Friend! (4.00 / 3)
Wait for my third installment.  Lind's incredibly confused about people, groups and individual responsibility.

You may think three installments is way too much, but Lind is mining one of the motherlodes of conservative American discourse.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
"You may think three installments is way too much" THREE installments??? (0.00 / 0)
Wow. Well, actually, I DO think this is excessive, but it's your time, Paul. And if you think this is a good example for exposing atrocities of "conservative American discourse", who am I to argue with that?
:D

[ Parent ]
Well, The Second Installment (4.00 / 2)
is another reminder of class-based differences in voting.

I never like to lose an opportunity to remind folks, with cold hard statistics, that it's the Democratic Party that's still the party of the working class--even the White working class.  Even in the South.

Tea-baggers, Birthers and Deathers are overhwelmingly Republicans, and not at all representative of the folks Lind is talking about.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Conservatives (4.00 / 1)
have been making a very good living ensuring that "liberal" includes everyone to the left of center.  This allows them to find some no brain academic, beat up on them, and claim that said no brain academic represents liberals.  

To be honest, though, liberals do some of the same things to conservatives.


[ Parent ]
As a Southern white male, can I please ask Lind et al to stop whining? (4.00 / 9)
As a native Southern white male there's nothing more that gives me hope for our nation's future then when the most disgusting, retrograde, revanchist conservative and reactionary white Southern political culture is taken on, insulted, attacked.

I have had to grow up and live with this vile shit.

And I'm also sick and tired of "Southern" being sanctified as only including Southern conservative (and usually religious) whites.

The majority of our nation's African Americans live here in the South, and I never hear the Lind types complaining about how "Southern" doesn't often include them.

So does a rapidly growing part of our nation's Latino population.  You've got young Southerners with Latin and Asian parents talking with strong Southern accents (or not), and are as every bit "Southern" as the perpetually whining, aggrieved population Lind is always whining about.

Jeesh, nothing could be better for the South than for its voters and politicians to realize that national politics is no longer dominated by conservative Southern Republicans, nor is there a coherent conservative South whose state victories are all necessary to elect a President, and Presidential candidates no longer have to BE nor pretend to cater to Southern conservative whites.

This is GREAT for me as a Southerner.

Imagine that -- someday soon we might have true political diversity here.


Not to mention (4.00 / 4)
there would be no Southern literature without gay and lesbian Southerners.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
Well, Except For Murder Ballads! (4.00 / 2)
I think there'd still be plenty of those still floating around.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Aren't those Irish? (0.00 / 0)
Talk about the tangled skeins of culture.

[ Parent ]
I Should Have Let My Original Text Stand (4.00 / 1)
It read something like, "I know they all trace back to Scoth-Irish roots, but as long as people keep killing each other (a Southern specialty, I'm told), new ones just have to keep being written."

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Sadly, I don't hear much of that in contemporary bluegrass- although (0.00 / 0)
I agree that that's just W-R-O-N-G and utter misdirection.

[ Parent ]
You do hear it in rap music. (4.00 / 2)
Black culture is the living heir of Scotch-Irish culture. Or, to put it another way, the "The Highwayman" is alive and well and he goes by the name 50 Cent.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
More bitter betrayal than murder. (0.00 / 0)
I'm a sucker for old the theatricality of old-timey rural music, and certainly it's always represented the best of South, in terms of interweaving blacks and white culture. Mississippi John Hurt is my go to of late- can't get enough of the blues and bluegrass integration.

[ Parent ]
As another Southern White Male (4.00 / 5)
I wholeheartedly second everything you posted.

[ Parent ]
I have lived my entire life in the South (4.00 / 4)
My mother's family was Scotch-Irish. My father's family was Spanish and Central American Indian. Both families settled in Louisiana over a hundred years ago. I know the South. In my lifetime I have witnessed first hand its racism, its bigotry and its resistance to change.

As far as I am concerned the South was hijacked for political purposes beginning in the late 70s and it has yet to recover. It began with the rise of religious fundamentalism. That movement has receded into the background. What we see at present is a corporate organized, media supported frenzy made possible by the rantings of a small group of people, a group that claims to represent the much larger, more diverse culture that is the real South.

If you look at the demography of the Southern states you find a rapid and dramatic change in both ethnicity and political orientation. The South is becoming more, not less, liberal.

What we are witnessing, and what Michael Lind is singing, is the Swan Song of Southern white republican culture. During the first eight years of this century we were almost thrown into a dark age by the desire of the religious right to see Armageddon in their own lifetimes. The Republican Party used that desire to great advantage. What has now taken religious fundamentalism's place is a cynical manipulation of White conservative culture that relies almost entirely on lies, fear and ignorance in an effort to maintain a corporate hegemony and a conservative political status quo that are both, very simply, unsustainable.


I haven't lives in the South my whole life and instead for only 2 years, (0.00 / 0)
although my mother's family has been here since the 1700's. My day to day experience in a liberal, rural area has very little to do with the stereotypical Southern republican culture, but at county-wide community forums, I regularly encounter the conservatives from the other, more rundown side of the county.

What amazes me is the Southern conservative's investment in standards by which they are losing, and the anger that engenders. So many of them are painfully angry, bitter people, at least when politics rears its head, and I can't help believe that they don't fundamentally understand somewhere underneath that their own political system isn't benefiting them. The conservative towns to the east of me have gone to absolute shit economically, while the liberal areas grow more and more prosperous. Hence comes the clinging to racism- the one standard by which they are able to imagine themselves as part of an elevated class. But you're absolutely right that it's proving unsustainable, and these people fucking know it.


[ Parent ]
Southern White Political Culture out of step (4.00 / 1)
I mentioned this in a comment to Chris's post the other day, but Paul's point is backed up by the past 6 months of DailyKos Research 2000 polling--where soon after Obama's inauguration, the South fell back into anti-Obama mode (and since half of all African-Americans live in the South, this means that the overwhelming bulk of White Southerners had already turned against Obama early on, even as the other 3/4 of the nation had high favorability ratings for Obama (over 80% in the Northeast, in the 60%s for the Midwest & West).
On the flip side, the South is the only part of the nation where the Republican Congress crawls out of single digits on favorability!  The Northeast, the Midwest & the West see the "Party of No" clearly...even the South is negative (proof the GOPs are still in big trouble), but 3 or 4 times as favorable...

Paul, you have a point (4.00 / 2)
but I only agree with it so far.

Lind also has one, but it only can be taken so far.

I will certainly agree with you that there is something vile in the Southern political culture that needs to have a spotlight shone upon it and hopefully, one day, be expunged.  The examples are all too obvious.  And I could tell you other things about it.  Before TV gave us a nationalized culture, there were various sections of the South (Eastern Tennessee, West Virginia) that were actually proud of their region's role in fighting against that Confederacy.  That culture has pretty well been wiped out these days.  A friend of mine who actually tried organizing unions in these parts of the South once lamented this loss to me.  He could gain no traction with this line of argument, its remnants had long been forgotten and young guys were flying the Confederate flag thinking this was what their ancestors had done - though the opposite was more than likely true.

And I don't have a problem with serious people such as yourself who want to point out that there is a continuing problem here.

On the other hand, and this is part of what I think motivates Lind, is that there are vast numbers of not-so-serious people who THINK OF THEMSELVES as being progressive or even on the left (even if you or I don't necessarily welcome them as allies) who trot out the most facile and condescending putdowns of the South (and truth be told, all the "flyover states") at the drop of a hat.

Cable news progressives like Keith Olbermann occasionally cross this line.  Do you play for ratings by catering to Northern progressives' sometimes overly-inflated view of their own intelligence with humor that appeals to them and incites the other side, or not?

These folks ASSUME that they are so much smarter than the flyovers and really do ooze condescension.  On some progressive Web site or other yesterday (I think it was firedoglake), one commenter greeted the news that Sen. Kent Conrad had stated he would not vote for a bill containing a public option with "Fucking North Dakota", instantly consigning a whole state to his doghouse.  But who cares about North Dakota?  Eventually, this kind of thing returns to bite us in the ass.  And Paul, you know this offhanded dismissal of entire regions is all too common in the liberal blogosphere.

This kind of reaction helps feed the resentments used by reactionary politicians in these regions that keeps their hegemony in place.  Yes, they have the Internet down there and they can read this stuff.  Some Southern progressives are strong enough to ignore all this and continue their strong fight against what is objectionable in their region's politics.  Hats off to them!  But others are not so strong and get tired of having to fight with both hands tied behind their back against the reactionaries, for whom smug northerners find nothing more amusing than providing "locker room quotes" to the other side.

Have you ever asked yourself, how it's possible for us to be losing the battle for Health Care Reform?  Which we surely are, with the best likely outcome being now, depending on who you talk to, a weak public option that may be worse than nothing if we can even win that.  If you listen to the people at the Town Halls, those who are honestly attracted to what the Astroturfers are spewing out there (and not the Astroturf operatives themselves, who are another story), cultural resentment plays a big role in their thinking.  And they do know a few things.

They know that the jobs that once sustained them better are gone and never coming back.  They know that elites in both parties are regaling them with false nostrums like "education" (for what jobs?) and that the very insurance companies Democrats are now railing against are at the negotiating table calling the tune - and they smell a rat.  And then they see moneyed urban progressives laughing at their stupidity - making them still easier marks for the astroturfers.  And that is what I take to be Lind's main point.

He isn't always right, but when he's right, nobody is as right-on than Bob Somerby, the Daily Howler:

By the way: We've never seen (Naomi) Klein ridicule less-sophisticated working-class people. Could it be because she's too smart?

Our side keeps losing-but their side is dumb! It's how certain liberals "reason."

That statement still rings true even if it's now been exposed (as it wasn't when he wrote it) that Tea Bag protestor Katy Abram is actually an Astroturfer and not the naive citizen she pretended to be.

Yes, take on the cultural backwardness of the South.  But that is hard work, and it isn't accomplished or even aided by dilettantes who get their jollies by firing off pseudo-sophisticated bon mots about how stupid are the people who are kicking our ass.


sTiVo's rule: Just because YOU "wouldn't put it past 'em" doesn't prove that THEY did it.


See Gray's First Comment (0.00 / 0)
People in the South, or "flyover states" or Bakersfield, for that matter, who take offense anytime some person makes the sort of remark you allege and then turn it into "the worst bigotry in the history of the world" are really doing nothing more than proving that they deserve any such scorn.

Their own lives are so empty and unfulfilling that a casual remark from someone they don't know from Adam sets them off into paranoid delusionland.  These people need to get a life!

Good grief!  What if Californians reacted like that every time someone made a crack about California?

You know what Californians do?  Well, all the cracks that outsiders make about Californians, Californians either (a) repeat it themselves and laugh, or (b) re-specify the geography, i.e. to Hollywood, Marin County, whatever.  Northern Californians and Southern Californians especially enjoy joking about each other, or (c) just ignore it.

But Californians who are foolish enough to write opeds about how unfair the rest of the world is to us proud Californians?  I can't remember the last time one of those got published that I ever saw.  1878, maybe?

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
That's not the way it works (0.00 / 0)
"Locker Room Quotes" should not make any difference to a team's performance in a game, but sometimes they do.  It's not that some North Dakotan will read the firedoglake posting I referred to above and say, "that's it, I'm switching to the other side" but it's a steady stream accreting over time.

Ask yourself, Paul, if you were, let's say, a union organizer in Georgia, would you project an attitude of zero-tolerance for any sign of cultural backwardness, or would you, to some extent, give in to it, hopefully not on the important stuff, and save your high-minded moments for when they really counted?  If you chose the former, you probably wouldn't last as long in that line of work.  Which is why so few people choose it.

During the Bush years we used to laugh at the "101st Fighting Keyboarders", those chickenhawk warriors ready to launch wars at the drop of a hat but never actually signing up to participate themselves.  But I'm starting to see it as the dark side of the Internet culture from all sides.  It's all too easy to drop bon mots bombs on the other side and all too many people confuse that with real activism.  People confuse getting THEIR feelings off their chest with actually organizing people to accomplish their goals.  It's a form of narcissism, actually.  It doesn't do us nearly as much good as we sometimes think it does.


sTiVo's rule: Just because YOU "wouldn't put it past 'em" doesn't prove that THEY did it.


[ Parent ]
But That's Just It, I'm NOT A Union Organizer In Georgia (0.00 / 0)
Get it?

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
My point is (0.00 / 0)
that it would do us all a world of good to imagine that we were in that situation, if our goal is ever to pull ourselves out of this mess.

Who would you rather have on your side, then?  A union organizer in Georgia or a thousand fighting keyboarders?

Sheesh, Paul, all I'm saying is that people should try to restrain themselves from getting their jollies from their own posts and work instead at figuring out how you're going to convince the people that need convincing.


sTiVo's rule: Just because YOU "wouldn't put it past 'em" doesn't prove that THEY did it.


[ Parent ]
No (4.00 / 2)
Whether you realize it or not, what you're doing is saying we should police our own speech not to offend Southern racists.

The attempt to stifle critical comments wherever they might appear is utterly typical of the authoritarian agenda, and it never ceases to amaze me how well-intentioned people can so readily fall into this trap.

Sheesh, Paul, all I'm saying is that people should try to restrain themselves from getting their jollies from their own posts and work instead at figuring out how you're going to convince the people that need convincing.

The worst offenders are never going to be changed by saying "pretty please."  Read Amanda Marcotte's post.

The real targets are folks who might otherwise listen to the worst offenders, and making those worst offenders objects of ridicule is a good thing.

I support Southern White progressives.  Not the cretins they have to do battle with every day.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
If I understand you correctly, you advocate more consideration... (4.00 / 2)
...of Southern sensibilities. As long as this doesn't interfere with telling the truth, I would say d'accord. But are you aware that Paul already noticed us that he would dive into this issue deeper with more postings, and that he stated "Tea-baggers, Birthers and Deathers are overhwelmingly Republicans, and not at all representative of the folks Lind is talking about." Imho this is compelling evidence that Paul is very well able to differentiate, and to not throw all Southern whites into the same drawer. If this reminder is necessary at all. After all, Paul isn't a hotheaded populist who is unable to use any colors other than black and white, like Da...uh, damn many rethuglicans...

[ Parent ]
My point was to defend Lind's, not to criticize Paul (0.00 / 0)
As I said to Paul above:

And I don't have a problem with serious people such as yourself who want to point out that there is a continuing problem here.

That, notwithstanding the real problems of racist political culture in the South, there are an awful lot of shallow-thinking progressives in the North who comfort themselves with an over-simplified morality tale about their own progressivism and then, from the distance that the Internet allows, throw these thoughtless little darts at the other side.

I think Lind is right to point that out and this is not particularly helpful.

That's not what Paul Rosenberg does.  His posts are usually extremely thoughtful and insightful and genuinely useful.  But, by taking so strong a line against Lind's comments here, he excuses all the non-serious cultural bomb-throwing that is all too common.  This, I take to be Lind's valid point.

The rule of thumb that I have learned is, if you wouldn't say it to someone's face, you probably shouldn't be saying it on the Internet.

Why is the "morality tale" so wrong?

We start with something like Universal Health Care -- everyone should get the care he or she needs.  That's a great moral vision for our side.  "Medicare for All" expresses this quite clearly and simply.  Now various poltical "realists" (and I'm not going to debate whether they're right or wrong here) have decided that that's not feasible politically, and instead we must have a "Public Option" that's almost but not quite as good as Medicare for All.  That gets further whittled down in the Congressional meat grinder to something much less compelling than even the compromised vision.  Yet, we progressives want to plow forward with the same moral clarity that powered our original vision, and, in my opinion, too readily accept that NOTHING BUT racism could possibly account for those who don't agree with our now-watered-down plan.  

We are also now seeing those who want to keep their Medicare and seem to care less about other people now referred to as "selfish" by various blog commenters.  AS IF our original plan had been to get Medicare recipients to "share their loot" with the uninsured.  It wasn't - our original goal was to get the insurance company leeches out of the way.  Our political compromises, however, have weakened our message and helped bring this perception to the fore and it cannot simply be dismissed as ignorance ("they don't even know Medicare is a government program").  That's another comforting tale we like to tell ourselves.

My ultimate point is that reality is much messier than this morality tale, that morality tales have unintended consequences, and we should be careful how we use them and too many on our side don't.


sTiVo's rule: Just because YOU "wouldn't put it past 'em" doesn't prove that THEY did it.


[ Parent ]
One must never support human repression in an effort to make "peace" (4.00 / 4)
That is exactly what the Southern conservative agenda is based upon -- repression of minority rights and repression of the underprivileged. It is wrong. It was always wrong. It will always be wrong.

This has nothing to do with big government. It has everything to do with maintaining control over the lives of others.

Even now, one hundred and fifty years after the end of the Civil War, this sits in front of my hometown courthouse in the middle of downtown Shreveport:

http://static.panoramio.com/ph...

I have no patience for it and I will never accept it.

Hollywood makes movies here. A lot of them. The population is 52% African American. There are hundreds of progressives and activists who live here. There is a vibrant art and progressive youth culture. Etc.

It is time to change and that change will not occur by "bowing and scraping" to racists.


[ Parent ]
And I'm not saying you should! (0.00 / 0)
You have every right to be repulsed by this kind of display, and I am repulsed by it, too.  

We also have had similar sorts of things in the North.  Look, I walked the streets of the Northwest Side of Chicago back in the eighties organize what little vote there was to be had there for our late, great mayor Harold Washington.  It wasn't pretty, I can tell you that.

It is not you I have my argument with.

My argument is those who would, way too flippantly, say "What do you expect from the racist South" as their first reaction to any unpleasant political development emanating from that region.

sTiVo's rule: Just because YOU "wouldn't put it past 'em" doesn't prove that THEY did it.


[ Parent ]
To Southern Whites (4.00 / 2)
Southern blacks have no role in the creation of the Southern identity.

And that says about all you need to say on this subject.


Well now that's not exactly true. (4.00 / 2)
I was reading Southern Living at the doctor's office just the other day. And while, yes, mostly it was dedicated to white people's summer homes (often in gated communities), vacation destinations and gardens, there were people of color in it!

As I recall, they were one chef, one musician and two athletes.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
I Think The Key Words Here Is "Creation" (0.00 / 0)
They have roles to play as actors.  But they don't get to write the script that defines Southern identity.

Little by little, they are gaining some authorship of scripts that describe Southern experience, but that's not the same thing by a long shot.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I meant that as snark -- (4.00 / 1)
the subtext of Southern Living is, as I see it, the fantasy of genteel plantation life without the messiness of, you know, having to deal with slaves.

You won't find black people on the beaches at Hilton Head, or in the "exclusive neighborhoods" of Birmingham, but they are welcome to enter your home as servants or entertainers. Plus ca change.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
I Know How YOU Meant It (0.00 / 0)
one chef, one musician and two athletes.

I'm not so sure about others, though.

I should have found a more elegant way to address my concerns.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I'm pretty sure racism counts as "culture", (0.00 / 0)
not political culture.

just (0.00 / 0)
Or should I say, not just political culture.

[ Parent ]
There Is No "JUST" Political Culture (4.00 / 1)
Political culture is much more than just politics.  But it's not the same as criticizing them, say, because they're religious fundmentalists, even though religious fundamentalism is routinely used to justify racism.  Political culture would encompass the ways in which the two interact, but not necessarily fundamentalism per se.

This is what gives White Southerners a maximum of freedom in taking responsibility for, and changing, that which is odious in the world that surrounds them, without demanding that they become mere clones of folks like myself who may have many other differences with them that are simply a normal part of the range of cultural differences.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Aren't Southern Baptists the largest denomination in the South? (0.00 / 0)
And, at least locally, I've known them to issue political edicts from the pulpit on a regular, aggressive basis. I certainly don't disagree with your larger point, but I would expand it beyond fundamentalists.  

[ Parent ]
Oh, whoops. My brain substitued evangelical for fundamentalist. (0.00 / 0)
Sorry- crap night of sleep. At any rate, I would lay a good deal of responsibility at the SBC specifically.

[ Parent ]
Not food (0.00 / 0)
Sure.  I just want to point out that you are using a very broad definition of "political".  Certainly, food is apart of culture, for example, and it was not this part that Kevin was complaining about.  But Kevin's complaint was pretty broad itself, I believe.

[ Parent ]
Sure Politics Touches A Lot (0.00 / 0)
Which makes Kevin's complaint "pretty broad" if that makes you happy.  But it's also quite specific in that it's not attacking people's religion, their family relations, their loyalties, except to the extent that these are used to perpetuate white supremacism.

And this is why it is utterly false to say that Drum was saying something equivalent to:

"There are, needless to say, plenty of individual blacks who are wholly admirable. But taken as a whole, black culture is [redacted]. Barack Obama can pretty it up all he wants, but it's a [redacted]."


"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Rankism (4.00 / 1)
Funny how you can tell where areas of the country rank themselves by how they react to criticisms.  When a Southerner criticizes San Fransisco, for example, nobody cares.  When someone from Southern California does the same, watch out.  LA, however, only notices criticism from New York and hardly knows anything exists north of the Grape Vine.

Southerners Say (0.00 / 0)
"A stuck pig squeals."

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
This was addressed in the comment section of Drum's (0.00 / 0)
original post. Rather pithily.

Commenter One said:

Let's play the substitution game:

"Needless to say, there are plenty of individual blacks who are wholly admirable...."

"Needless to say, there are plenty of individual Jews who are wholly admirable...."

I think we'd all know what to call that.

This post sucks, Kevin.

The reply was:

"Needless to say, there are plenty of individual neoconservatives who are wholly admirable...."

"Needless to say, there are plenty of individual blue dogs who are wholly admirable...."

Substituting one construct in for another doesn't excuse you from missing the point.



Yup! (0.00 / 0)
Anti-racism isn't rocket science.

It's much, much harder.

Not because it requires genius.  (It doesn't.)

But because it requires relinquishing self-serving stupidity.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
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