Matt Stoller: You recently called the Moveon ad criticizing Petraeus a 'big mistake'. Why is it a big mistake?
Wes Clark: Because it distracted attention from focusing on the failures of the policy and let the other side play a game of personal attack again and you know sort of outrage at that. That's a mistake. It distracted us from the dialogue we needed.
Matt Stoller: So your argument is...
Wes Clark: It gave something that Republicans could all agree on.
MS: So your argument is not that it was inaccurate in any way.
Wes Clark: No, I'd say it was a mistake tactically. But I also, I know Dave Petraeus, and he's not gonna say something he thinks is incorrect, he's not gonna lie, but the truth is relative, it's relative to where you sit and to what your responsibilities are. He sees the war in a certain way, he sees the circumstances in a certain way. Other people might look at the same situation and not being in his shoes might see it differently. That's what the dialogue is supposed to be all about. I don't think it's accurate to call him someone whose... it's a big mistake tactically.
Matt Stoller: How do you respond to millions of Americans, well I feel betrayed by this administration, and David Petraeus put Ed Gillespie in his operation and did 17 days of PR work in August, you know I think that's a betrayal I don't think he's acting like a military officer I think he's acting like a politician.
Wes Clark: I think that you've got to hold the political leadership accountable for that. Why let Bush get away with hiding behind his general? Why not just attack Bush directly?
Matt Stoller: Well, I don't think..
Wes Clark: He's had to hide behind Petraeus. Petraeus is being taken advantage of. In the military you have to be loyal to the chain of command. You have to. And Petraeus knows that if Congress pulls the forces out it will be by his definition a defeat in Iraq and so naturally he's trying to tell you why he needs those forces and why those forces should be there and that's no more than what's to be expected by someone in that position. He's like the quarterback on the football team, you don't like the plays that are being called go to the playcaller.
Matt Stoller: Ok, but David Petraeus claims that violence is down, and his report is the outlier. The Associated Press, the Los Angeles Times, the GAO, all say that violence remains high. I don't understand why Petraeus should be above criticism for representing information that isn't credible.
Wes Clark: He shouldn't be above criticism. You should quarrel with the information, don't quarrel with his character.
Matt Stoller: I'm sorry to drill down on this, but it's important to my readers.
Wes Clark: It's very important.
Matt Stoller: Chuck Hagel called his performance "a dirty trick on the American people... It's not only a dirty trick, but it's dishonest, it's hypocritical, it's dangerous and irresponsible." Admiral Fallon was reported saying that he thinks Petreaus is 'an ass-kissing little chickenshit" for the way he sucks up to politicians.' There are a lot of rumors that David Petraeus wants to run for President. My question is, um, is their criticism a mistake as well?
Wes Clark: Well, I think for Chuck Hagel, who's a sitting Senator who wants to criticize a General, that's fine. That's his right to do so. As far as Admiral Fallon was concerned, if he's got a personal quarrel with Petraeus, you know, that's between the two of them. Petraeus works for him, obviously he feels cut out and to some extent I've known situations like that, but, um, as for Moveon.org, it was a mistake.
Matt Stoller: But why can a sitting Senator criticize a General and millions of grassroots activists not do that? That's really what Moveon is, it's not like it's an entity.
Wes Clark: Moveon's an organization, and when it does that it distracts from the dialogue that the Senator's trying to have. Frankly, I think the better course of action is to bring out all the statistics and challenge Petraeus directly to explain how he can say that in the face of all these statistics. Did we do that? Did Moveon do that? Did they lay out the statistics and say 'Petraeus says this, here's the other fact he doesn't tell you, General Petraeus come back to us and explain to us.
Matt Stoller: Absolutely they did that. That's what the ad was, was there anything in the ad that was factually inaccurate?
Wes Clark: What instead came out was the play on his name, and that's all that came out. And that was the mistake. If it was a serious ad, did it ask those serious questions, no one could have objected to it.
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Matt Stoller: Ok so let's go back to the Petraeus ad. In particular you said that truth is relative, so truth is sort of malleable, can you go into that concept a little bit more?
Wes Clark: Well I've got about two minutes Matt before I've got to get on. Petraeus set up his criteria, I'm sure he's trying to project progress, he's using those statistics to guide the performance of his forces out there, and I'm sure that's what he sees, an effort to move towards progress. And yet, the fact is there's not a lot of progress, and people need to see both sides and that's what the dialogue's about but I don't think you advance the dialogue by name-calling and that's the Republican side. I've been called a lot of names by Rush Limbaugh and I don't appreciate it and I don't think we advance our own efforts by making a pun off his name. Let other people do that.
Matt Stoller: So how do the millions of people who feel lied to by General Petraeus express themselves? What's the appropriate way to express themselves?
Wes Clark: Send emails, write editorials, call Senators, write Op-Eds, letters to the editors, but make them substantive, serious letters. If you feel like he has lied to you say so, but don't make the pun on his name. Show it with facts and let people draw the conclusion. It's inflammatory rhetoric to hurl out accusations of lying, that's a conclusion that has to be drawn by a careful review and examination of the evidence and it has to be used with great circumspection. That kind of reckless language, especially the use of puns and so forth, people don't like it, it doesn't change peoples' minds, it alienates support, and this is a democracy. We've got to convince moderate middle of the road Americans to come our way. We won't do it with those kinds of ads.
Matt Stoller: Ok, thanks a..
Wes Clark: I'm sorry, you're asking my straight up opinion, I know there are a lot of people who will disagree, but I'm gonna tell it to you straight, that's what I feel.
Matt Stoller: I appreciate that.
