Similar to don't think of an elephant (4.00 / 4)

I'm not sure Obama explaining why death panels are lies is the same, though. If he didn't say a word about death panels, and we lost, we'd all be Monday-morning quarterbacking about how Obama should have swatted down the death panel myths. Kerry didn't say a word about the Swift Boat claims for weeks and there's near universal agreement that he should have talked about them.


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by: Adam Bink @ Thu Aug 20, 2009 at 19:36:44 PM UTC

You can address them without supporting them (4.00 / 1)

You just have to be careful in how you do it. The #1 rule being don't just repeat their rhetoric.

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by: Chris Andersen @ Fri Aug 21, 2009 at 00:46:41 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

What "progresive media"? Who is transmitting those forums? (0.00 / 0)

I may be wrong, but imho the problem is that progressive politicians simply aren't up to this media age yet. Your point about giving airtime to right wing talking points is obvious, imho. I can only wonder why nobody among the participants had the same idea. Still too early 20th century?

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by: Gray @ Thu Aug 20, 2009 at 19:38:16 PM UTC

I have to disagree (4.00 / 5)

The media is going to cover this crap either way, but at least with progressive or the President calling it out for the sham it is it also gets covered in the media.

The memes need to be repeated, mocked and ridiculed until the new meta-meme of how ridiculous these ideas are becomes the story.

No one wants to be labeled as a nut or associated with nuts and the more crazy we can show these bullshit statements to be, the more people will disavow them or distance themselves from it.

Remember the original tea parties? Once the media covered it showing all the pictures of Obama as a monkey and other racial stuff, all of a sudden some of the more career-minded republicans decided to step away.

I say beat these memes into the ground. Show the public how fucking ridiculous they are.

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by: Jon Niola @ Thu Aug 20, 2009 at 19:38:44 PM UTC

Quite right (0.00 / 0)

Note how the noise around the Birfers died down some after Orly got publicly punked with the Austral-Kenyan birth certificate. The crazy never goes away, but it ceases to be invited to sit on the podium.

See from the correct perspective that LaRouche supporter confronting Barney Frank was a gift. Tie the Deathers to Lyndon LaRouche and most Republicans will drop them like a hot stone.

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by: Bruce Webb @ Thu Aug 20, 2009 at 22:31:54 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

It's a balance (4.00 / 1)

The point of these ludicrous lies is to derail the debate.  As long as we're talking about nonexistent death panels, we're not talking about how to get prices down and access up.

I think, in this situation, you're right.  Republicans and Republican voters are basically powerless in the decision-making process, so debunking their ludicrous lies is kind of a waste of time.  If this were, say, a Presidential Election, I would argue otherwise.

Because as soon as the bill gets passed and death panels don't exist, all of this nonsense will go away.

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by: TValley @ Thu Aug 20, 2009 at 19:42:18 PM UTC

I was thinking about this... (4.00 / 2)

And not sure what exactly the proper response is... The same thing came up in the presidential campaign when McCain and Palin decided to just lie, lie, lie all the time... I know it's ugly, but I think what may be needed is a counter negative narrative that's probably over the top... Basically, tie Republicans and anti-reformers to something that sounds really bad.  Trying to come up with a strong enough (and in some ways ridiculous enough) term, the only thing I could come up with is "Murder Sheets", or something to that effect... You know, from the "Death by Spreadsheet" BS that the insurance companies are basically doing, we just shorten that to "Murder sheets" and say that's what Republicans and anti-reformers are in favor of. It'd go something like "We need to stop the Republicans from putting our loved ones on their "murder sheets".  Why oh why won't they stop killing people with their "murder sheets"?"

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by: leshrac55 @ Thu Aug 20, 2009 at 19:58:50 PM UTC

I completely disagree (4.00 / 3)

I have not heard anyone talk about how health care isn't for illegal immigrant in recent months.  I have heard them talk about how there are no death panels.

The recent poll shows far fewer people believe in death panels than the illegal immigrant.  That's because we were repeated the truth for the death panels.

New Jersey politics at Blue Jersey.

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by: Hopeful in NJ @ Thu Aug 20, 2009 at 20:02:22 PM UTC

I am vaguely calling you out (0.00 / 0)

Is it the "I am aware of all internet traditions" of 2009?

PS Chris, missed you at DL Tuesday.  Still want to hear your war stories from Pittsburgh.

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by: lutton @ Thu Aug 20, 2009 at 20:11:55 PM UTC

Because the reflex of many progressives (4.00 / 2)

is to enter a defensive mode against conservative b.s. and just complain about it, or try to explain politely and rationally why "death panels" aren't quite real and represent a distraction from meaningful debate. The only response is to say "That is a lie, period. Let's talk about reality," and shift immediately into every reason why we desperately need a public option and nothing less.  

As TValley very accurately points out above, the Republicans are simply trying to derail the process because they have no power.  When are Democrats going to wake up and realize that Republicans, as a congressional entity, have zero, literally zero, power? If reform isn't passed, we will only need to look in the mirror to find who to blame, because it is we who have allowed this defensive reflex from 2002-2008 to dominate the debate for our country's future.  

Not only is every moment spent talking about death panels a waste because it's defending against a non-existent talking point, it's a waste because the opportunity cost of that moment is an aggressive and positive case for real reform.  Of course, that's the harder case to make - it's always easier to complain about how terrible Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck and Charles Grassley are than to actually do something progressive.

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by: expatriatedjerseyan @ Thu Aug 20, 2009 at 20:43:30 PM UTC

In the House, they are powerless. (0.00 / 0)

In the Senate though, with Senators like Ben Nelson, Bayh, Landrieu, Conrad, Baucus, Lieberman etc. bringing up the rear of the Democratic caucus (notice someone missing from that list? thank you, Sestak!), and especially with Byrd and Kennedy sick, they are still quite capable of filibustering legislation.

Of course, the Democrats could just decide to nuke the filibuster -- or just ram things through with reconciliation -- but that doesn't seem especially likely to ever happen.

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by: illissius @ Thu Aug 20, 2009 at 23:27:02 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Can we please START (4.00 / 3)

developing some effective memes of our own? While "the public option" has some resonance I wish there was more of an emphasis on negative messaging against the status quo.

Save Our Schools! March & National Call to Action, July 28-31, 2011 in Washington, DC: http://www.saveourschoolsmarch...

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by: jeffbinnc @ Thu Aug 20, 2009 at 21:11:04 PM UTC

Good point! Where are the progressive talking points? (4.00 / 1)

For instance, why don't we hear of polls showing Americans don't trust private insurance companies but are very satisfied with Medicare and VA? That's the kind of stuff the TV should be talking about!

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by: Gray @ Thu Aug 20, 2009 at 21:18:43 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

How about (0.00 / 0)

"Healthcare that leaves no one behind?"

Trigger that "battlefield solidarity" feeling maybe, while also tweaking the very primal fear of abandonement.

Montani semper liberi

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by: Sadie Baker @ Thu Aug 20, 2009 at 22:20:58 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

I'm for going more primal (4.00 / 1)

Like: We don't have healthCARE we have healthCRAP!

Save Our Schools! March & National Call to Action, July 28-31, 2011 in Washington, DC: http://www.saveourschoolsmarch...

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by: jeffbinnc @ Thu Aug 20, 2009 at 22:37:07 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

I have a friend (4.00 / 1)

I was talking with him about this the other day. He is generally supportive of Obama. He then said that he didn't understand why Obama decided to call them "Death Panels".

Yes, he actually thought it was Obama who came up with that terminology.

Be warned folks, when you use the other side's rhetoric, you are spreading it.

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by: Chris Andersen @ Fri Aug 21, 2009 at 00:42:32 AM UTC

What Chris says (0.00 / 0)

and what Lakoff says (h-t: Mark Matson in QH):

"Conservative language will activate and strengthen conservative worldviews - even when negated! I titled a book Don't Think of an Elephant! to make this point. The classic example is Richard Nixon's "I am not a crook," which made everyone think of him as a crook. And yet I've heard President Obama say "We don't want a government takeover," which activates the idea of a government takeover. Mediamatters.org's major story, as I write this, is: "The media have debunked the death panels -- more than 40 times." It then gives a list of 40 cases of debunking, each one of which uses the term "death panels." And you wonder, after so many debunkings, why it is still believed! Each "debunking" reinforced the idea. The first rule of effective communication is stating the positive in your own terms, not quoting the other side's language with a negation."

Save Our Schools! March & National Call to Action, July 28-31, 2011 in Washington, DC: http://www.saveourschoolsmarch...

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by: jeffbinnc @ Fri Aug 21, 2009 at 03:00:26 AM UTC

So where's the leadership? (0.00 / 0)

We're still talking about GOP memes because NO ONE has competently neutralized them.  I'm no strategist but it's painfully obvious to everyone that the Dems miss one opportunity after another to change the direction of the debate.  When the death panel madness started, it should have been co-opted immediately with something like "the only death panel in this bill will be for unfair insurance company practices" or something like that (again, not a strategist).  Dem leadership should be giving US memes to repeat.  Instead we're in an endless cycle of playing defense against the Cult of GOP.

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by: BigTuna @ Fri Aug 21, 2009 at 16:00:03 PM UTC