It's The FASCISM, Stupid!

by: Paul Rosenberg

Sun Aug 23, 2009 at 14:30


On August 7, Sara Robinson wrote a very throrough, very frightening diary at Orcinus, Fascist America: Are We There Yet?

She began:

All through the dark years of the Bush Administration, progressives watched in horror as Constitutional protections vanished, nativist rhetoric ratcheted up, hate speech turned into intimidation and violence, and the president of the United States seized for himself powers only demanded by history's worst dictators. With each new outrage, the small handful of us who'd made ourselves experts on right-wing culture and politics would hear once again from worried readers: Is this it? Have we finally become a fascist state? Are we there yet?

Previously, the answer had been  "As bad as this looks: no -- we are not there yet.".  Now, though...

In tracking the mileage on this trip to perdition, many of us relied on the work of historian Robert Paxton, who is probably the world's pre-eminent scholar on the subject of how countries turn fascist. In a 1998 paper published in The Journal of Modern History [pdf], Paxton argued that the best way to recognize emerging fascist movements isn't by their rhetoric, their politics, or their aesthetics. Rather, he said, mature democracies turn fascist by a recognizable process, a set of five stages that may be the most important family resemblance that links all the whole motley collection of 20th Century fascisms together. According to our reading of Paxton's stages, we weren't there yet. There were certain signs -- one in particular -- we were keeping an eye out for, and we just weren't seeing it.

And now we are. In fact, if you know what you're looking for, it's suddenly everywhere.

Paul Rosenberg :: It's The FASCISM, Stupid!
Before going any further, we need to be clear about what we're talking about. Here's Paxton's essential definition of the term:

"Fascism is a system of political authority and social order intended to reinforce the unity, energy, and purity of communities in which liberal democracy stands accused of producing division and decline."

But the real essence of Paxton's contribution is his detailed seeing through the variety of diverse national variants, and understanding fascism as the culmination of a developmental process.

On the first point, Paxtpn's paper notes:

each national variant of fascism draws its legitimacy, as we shall see, not from some universal scripture, but from what it considers the most authentic elements of its own community identity.

On the second point, Robinson goes on to explain:

According to Paxton, fascism unfolds in five stages. The first two are pretty solidly behind us -- and the third should be of particular interest to progressives right now.

In the first stage, a rural movement emerges to effect some kind of nationalist renewal (what Roger Griffin calls "palingenesis" -- a phoenix-like rebirth from the ashes). They come together to restore a broken social order, always drawing on themes of unity, order, and purity. Reason is rejected in favor of passionate emotion. The way the organizing story is told varies from country to country; but it's always rooted in the promise of restoring lost national pride by resurrecting the culture's traditional myths and values, and purging society of the toxic influence of the outsiders and intellectuals who are blamed for their current misery....

In the second stage, fascist movements take root, turn into real political parties, and seize their seat at the table of power. Interestingly, in every case Paxton cites, the political base came from the rural, less-educated parts of the country; and almost all of them came to power very specifically by offering themselves as informal goon squads organized to intimidate farmworkers on behalf of the large landowners. The KKK disenfranchised black sharecroppers and set itself up as the enforcement wing of Jim Crow. The Italian Squadristi and the German Brownshirts made their bones breaking up farmers' strikes. And these days, GOP-sanctioned anti-immigrant groups make life hell for Hispanic agricultural workers in the US. As violence against random Hispanics (citizens and otherwise) increases, the right-wing goon squads are getting basic training that, if the pattern holds, they may eventually use to intimidate the rest of us.

Paxton wrote that succeeding at the second stage "depends on certain relatively precise conditions: the weakness of a liberal state, whose inadequacies condemn the nation to disorder, decline, or humiliation; and political deadlock because the Right, the heir to power but unable to continue to wield it alone, refuses to accept a growing Left as a legitimate governing partner." He further noted that Hitler and Mussolini both took power under these same circumstances: "deadlock of constitutional government (produced in part by the polarization that the fascists abetted); conservative leaders who felt threatened by the loss of their capacity to keep the population under control at a moment of massive popular mobilization; an advancing Left; and conservative leaders who refused to work with that Left and who felt unable to continue to govern against the Left without further reinforcement."

And more ominously: "The most important variables...are the conservative elites' willingness to work with the fascists (along with a reciprocal flexibility on the part of the fascist leaders) and the depth of the crisis that induces them to cooperate."

That description sounds eerily like the dire straits our Congressional Republicans find themselves in right now. Though the GOP has been humiliated, rejected, and reduced to rump status by a series of epic national catastrophes mostly of its own making, its leadership can't even imagine governing cooperatively with the newly mobilized and ascendant Democrats. Lacking legitimate routes back to power, their last hope is to invest the hardcore remainder of their base with an undeserved legitimacy, recruit them as shock troops, and overthrow American democracy by force. If they can't win elections or policy fights, they're more than willing to take it to the streets, and seize power by bullying Americans into silence and complicity.

In my previous diaries today, I've made mention of the fact that conservatives/Republicans have been quite willing to break the rules for some time now, so they have plenty of practice, as well as the inclination, to go gleefully skiing down that old slippery slope:

When that unholy alliance is made, the third stage -- the transition to full-fledged government fascism -- begins.

And that's where we are today.  The fleeting signs of the past are over and done with:

Now, the guessing game is over. We know beyond doubt that the Teabag movement was created out of whole cloth by astroturf groups like Dick Armey's FreedomWorks and Tim Phillips' Americans for Prosperity, with massive media help from FOX News. We see the Birther fracas -- the kind of urban myth-making that should have never made it out of the pages of the National Enquirer -- being openly ratified by Congressional Republicans. We've seen Armey's own professionally-produced field manual that carefully instructs conservative goon squads in the fine art of disrupting the democratic governing process -- and the film of public officials being terrorized and threatened to the point where some of them required armed escorts to leave the building. We've seen Republican House Minority Leader John Boehner applauding and promoting a video of the disruptions and looking forward to "a long, hot August for Democrats in Congress."

This is the sign we were waiting for -- the one that tells us that yes, kids: we are there now. America's conservative elites have openly thrown in with the country's legions of discontented far right thugs. They have explicitly deputized them and empowered them to act as their enforcement arm on America's streets, sanctioning the physical harassment and intimidation of workers, liberals, and public officials who won't do their political or economic bidding.

I would argue that we actually have been here before.  It was called "McCarthyism."  Much of the same dynamic was present.  The difference was that the legacy of the New Deal was simply far too well entrenched, and the top echelon of the Republican Party was only passively along for the ride-they weren't actively pushing it, they were wink-wink, nod-nodding with McCarthy and a few others.  But the widespread air of intimidation was actually far stronger then than it is today.  This gets back to my point about why this period of American history is so different, in a way that liberals and Democrats have never really come to terms with.

The difference could be successfully paved over, due to the enduring strength of the New Deal coalition, at least through 1968.  But after that came the long, deeply anomalous period of divided government,  during which a mandateless rightwing movement shoved our country far to the right, even as the populace at large become substantially more liberal on matters like racial tolerance, women's roles in society, and gay rights, and generally remained predominantly liberal on issues overall.

What's most chilling now is the sharply increased level of disconnect between the intensity of what's happening in the streets in terms of the corporate elite/GOP leadership/mob thuggery alliance and more-clueless-than-thou Obama Administration.  The utter and complete disconnect coming from the White House right now is chillingly reminiscent of the deer-in-the-headlights center-left types during the fading days of the Weimar Republic.  This is perhaps the most cutting irony:  the fascist teabaggers, birthers and deathers carrying signs equating Obama with Hitler, when in actuality the figures he actually resembles are the centrist appeasers whose vacillation and denial paved the way for Hitler to take over.

One more point needs to be made here. One thing the Right has today that it didn't have back in McCarthy's day is the organized anti-choice movement.  And the importance of that cannot be underestimated. Back on August 3, Amanda Marcotte wrote a column "Birthers and Anti-Choicers: One and the Same?" in which she underscored the commonalities, which all trace back to the underlying nature of movement conservatism, on its evolutionary path toward outright fascism:

Is it fair to compare anti-choice nuttery to birther conspiracy theories?  Well, of course.  First of all, there's a great deal of overlap between birthers and anti-choicers.  Certainly, politicians think both groups are one and the same people.  James Inhofe, one of the most outspoken and aggressive anti-choicers in the Senate, obviously believes his base wants to hear about how birthers have a "point" [1], even though it takes roughly two sentences and a quick perusal of the Constitution to point that this is impossible.  But maybe he's reading the same data I am, that shows that 63% of Republicans are "pro-life" [2]and 58% are somewhere on the birther scale. [3]  And just as anti-choice sentiment is strongest in the South and Midwest, birtherism is as well.  

With that in mind, I made a list of aspects of movement conservatism that you're probably learning about the birther movement that you would have known already if you had followed the anti-choice movement closely.

Truth is considered a mere obstacle between them and their goals.  For ordinary Americans struggling to understand the birthers, the most frustrating thing about them must be their utter contempt for evidence, reality, or any form of inconvenient truth.  No matter how many times birthers are shown pictures of Obama's birth certificate, no matter how many times they're reminded that Obama is a citizen both through his birth geography and his mother's citizenship, no matter how many people call them cranks---they do not care.  Reality is unimportant, compared to what they believe....

Everything's a conspiracy.  Unable to face up to the fact that doctors provide abortions for the mundane reason that female patients ask for them, anti-choicers have concocted an elaborate conspiracy theory about how abortion is an "industry" based around tricking women into getting abortions for profit. Like all conspiracy theorists, they take evidence against the theory as if it were evidence that the network of conspirators is vast.  So, if you Jane Blogger point out that Planned Parenthood is a non-profit that helps patients avoid abortion through contraception, the anti-choicer will assume you're part of the conspiracy and argue that contraception is part of the abortion conspiracy [9].

The birther conspiracy theory works the same way---pointing out evidence and logical arguments only expands the size and scope of the conspiracy in the minds of birthers.   In fact the "Obama faked his birth certificate and was born outside of the U.S." theory apparently erupted in part from an earlier conspiracy theory over Obama's middle name [10].  With birthers, as with anti-choicers, more evidence of reality just gets them further into the thick of imagining even more complex and strange conspiracies.  And just as the anti-choicers have moved on to concocting theories about how Planned Parenthood is part of a child sex ring that they're covering up, I suspect the birther thing may grow in ways that are frightening in their complexity and lack of touch with reality.

And Obama said he could put an end to the culture wars!  Have them all over for tea!


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The fascist definition of centrism (0.00 / 0)
We have a new definition of centrist in our increasingly fascist society.  It is now to be known as someone who actually works for industry but advises "our" government ... right in the middle of all that matters ... and a "resource" to them both.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08...

Z  


With Tom Daschles like this who needs Secretary of Healths? (0.00 / 0)
Z

[ Parent ]
With "resources" like this, who needs Secretary of Healths? (0.00 / 0)
Z

[ Parent ]
Signs and portents (4.00 / 5)
Palingenesis? No way, dude! (Who needs history, when we have poetry.)

Palin geneis? (4.00 / 2)
she was born in the states.  i saw the long form.  why are you libs so afraid of her?

[ Parent ]
It's That Damn Apple She Keeps Taking Huge Bites Out Of (4.00 / 3)
I can see both Eden and Armageddon from my house.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
I'm glad I'm not the only one who saw that! n/t (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
Fascism is the final stage of an empire's lifecycle (4.00 / 3)
Given the current state of U.S. politics, our society is apparently destined to enjoy a very short tenure as a global superpower.

I believe that history (I certainly hope we get to have one) will mark 1968 as the beginning decline of U.S. empire. Our role as empire came to full flower at the height of WWII and began its decline with Vietnam. We are now in rapid decline. Whether U.S. civilization goes out with a bang or a whimper, our reliance on brute force, both internationally and now domestically, over the soft power of reason and democratic rule of law says all one needs to know about our present insane political climate and our rapid loss of power and prestige in the world.

If the U.S. does become fascist, and it may, it will fail almost immediately. Fascism is not sustainable. Its methods of information sharing and resource utilization are too inefficient to compete effectively with far more flexible and resource efficient socially democratic forms of government.

The real hope for a democratic future lies with an educated, informed (and employed) electorate that understands that democracy is about equality among the many and has little or nothing to do with the privilege of a few. That future seems far away at present. It will take at least generation of liberal democratic rule to set things right from this point.

Democracy is by its nature a culture war. It has always been a culture war. It will always be a culture war. The sooner the liberal majority (and that includes the POTUS) understands this and acts accordingly, the sooner things will start to change for the better.


I'm Not Sure (4.00 / 3)
about this:

Democracy is by its nature a culture war.

Some places it seems more like a skirmish or two, then knocking off for brewskis for the rest of the afternoon.

What I do know is that you can't be too worried when culture wars do flare up.  You should do what you can to contain them, but never let the perpetrators exact a price in the process.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
We've been engaged in military conflict abroad since at least 1898 (4.00 / 2)
and, under a slightly different definition, since 1607.

I tend to think 1973 is a more meaningful date in the "decline of the American empire," as it then became very clear that nuclear weapons and the production and consumption of consumer commodities couldn't indefinitely guarantee US hegemony worldwide.

In any event, given the changes in global credit markets, I find it far more interesting and useful to think in terms of transnational empires defined by elite financial relationships than what now seems the somewhat old-school idea of empires based on the nation-state model.  


[ Parent ]
American Trajan (0.00 / 0)
Trajan was the Roman Emperor when it reached its absolute peak and started to shrink.  I always though of JFK as the American Trajan.  Strangely, one could make the argument for LBJ as well.  If it is LBJ the moment(s) are clear: the Tonkin Gulf incident and the subsequent massive escalation of the US involvement in Vietnam in 1965.

Odd, isn't it, that the moment thing changed was false or at least falsified in a way that the invasion of Korea was not.


[ Parent ]
Fascism gets all confused with authoritarianism around here (0.00 / 0)
While fascism is the political expression, authoritarianism is the psychological mentality that expresses itself in fascism and other totalitarian forms of government to greater or lesser degrees.

For an exhaustive study of authoritarianism see altemeyer's ebook http://74.125.155.132/search?q...

Authoritarianism is all over the liberal blogs. There have been brown shirts at dkos that have finally been banned after years of persecuting people. Authoritarians are all over the comment sections in all blogs.

But facts are continually presented to them in attempts at persuasion. Facts are irrelevant to the authoritarian mind. Yes it will enfold them and deepen the fantasy and expand it. Just as capitalism does to its detractors.

It is this process that has to be exposed. Forget facts. Rove conditioned the minds of the right to say whatever. That that would become the new reality if repeated often enough and leftists and progressives would have to respond to it. The fantasy has created the reality, and then we have one more thing to try to disprove.

They are on to Obama and now are all over him like bees on honey. They're stinging and won't stop. He's going to have to wash himself clean to get them off. And then he is going to have to make a different reality that they will have to respond to. Even if health care goes through, there are going to be so many people fucked by it in their own lives that it will be we told you so.

I have it so let me give you an example: I went to a new clinic, saw a woman doctor and had a positive experience. My second appointment was with a youngish male doctor. I simply asked him for a prescription of HRT, told him I had been on it before for years, and had recently gone on it again for a medical study, found it very helpful and would like to stay on it.

He looked up at me and said, What's HRT? I told him hormone replacement therapy. But that's when I should have walked instead of just calling him mentally a stupid. He gives me a prescription that has been faxed to the pharmacy. When I get there it is half the dosage I was on. They called and the call went on and on and he wouldn't change it. So I called. He wouldn't talk to me, he wouldn't change it, and I told them that if he wouldn't talk to me and wouldn't change it I would go elsewhere.

And I have. Because I still can. But I expect that to stop. Just as veterans are told which VA facility they can go to. Now if I were forced to go back to the first clinic I would then always be that woman who makes trouble, so don't pay attention to anything she says. These are the kinds of things the right wing knows and hates. They hate the social services because they have to be destitute to get help because they don't know how to game the system. And you have to know how to get help. They force you to lie in many cases.

So I can see both sides, but still want single payer even tho I know American doctors who will staff it have inflated degrees, or at least many of them do. And here in MO there are hoards of them because the state boards are easier than in most places. We get a lot of DO's. NOt that there's anything wrong with DO's but here you have to look through the entire yellow pages to find an MD. and I wonder about his quality.


excellent post (4.00 / 2)
Fascinating and terrifying. Couple questions:

Is it historically common to come close to the brink of full-fledged fascism (if that's where we are), and then recede from the abyss? Or is there a tipping point beyond which that becomes a very unlikely course?

And: the Republican party is at about 20% approval. Can a political organization be that unpopular and seize power? Are sudden shifts in popular support for such organizations common at the nascence of fascist government?


Good Questions (4.00 / 1)
If you read Sara's original piece, you'll see that there are definitely escape routes still left.

On your second point, I think the real danger is if Obama's feckless corporatism steers us into the deep doo-doo--if we hit a whole new wave of financial landmines, for example--then all bets could be off.

But if things don't change much, if the Dems remain substantially more popular than the Reps, then they'll have a hard time pulling it off.  Still, considering that the Dems have folded so many times before, the Reps may go for it, regardless, figuring that Dem support will crumble as the Dems waffle once again.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
And the course no matter how unpopular they are, (4.00 / 1)
the Rethugs will always have the winds of the corporate media machine at their backs, pushing the fear message as far as it needs to go in order to get the job done.

[ Parent ]
Its the constant neoliberal willingness to undercut labor (4.00 / 4)
to the benefit of business that makes the comparison with fascism useful to me.  

And that these business interests, many of them well-connected to the military, are very often willing to provoke and mobilize masses of people on behalf of jingoistic, hyper-patriotic sentiment makes such analogies even more valid.

But I tend to think that this shallow nationalism is just a screen to mobilize resources on behalf of a class of international elites rather than domestic interests. That is, we're in a qualitatively different paradigm with very important qualitative similarities.  


[ Parent ]
There is a chilling difference between the McCarthy era and now: GUNS (4.00 / 5)
McCarthyism,  which was aimed at curbing the liberalism of the New Deal, enforced itself through blacklisting. Either by industries bullied into it by outside groups through various market mechanisms or the various levels of government which were bullied into by people like Joe McCarthy of the Senate or the Chairs of HUAC, the House UnAmerican Activites Committee.

The success of the right and the NRA in various states in passing "right to carry laws"  and even the US Senate, (there were 58 Senators who would have permitted a national version of a right to carry law) means that there are now guns in the hands of right wingers all over the country.  And the recent teabagger events, even with the president, they are willing to show them and to use tham as threats at the very least. The mere threat of violence is enough to keep many people from participating.  

There are fewer and fewer official, elected Republicans willing to criticize these teabaggers for bringing guns to public venues.  Public meetings in which the point is the expression of the Frist Amendment...to assemble, to redress grievances, to freely speak their mind...to each other and to their elected Representatives.  One never knows then the mere showing of a gun means the guns could be fired.  This wrongful interpretation of the Second Amendment can soon trample the First Amendment.

Right wingers value and carry guns, liberals don't.

What did Mao say?  "Power comes out of the barrel of a gun."  So can loss of power.  

"Incrementalism isn't a different path to the same place, it could be a different path to a different place"
Stoller


Good Point (4.00 / 1)
I don't think we should assume this will be determinative, however.  Only a very small percentage thinks it's cool to use guns to intimidate.  This is why it's important to ask GOP officials to denounce it.  

Norms matter.  A lot.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Norms do very much matter (4.00 / 1)
That was my point about the lack of condemnation by various official parts of the Republican establishment.

That's new and different. Chris Matthews tries but he's having trouble getting official Republicans to be condemnatory.  Though he did get Tom Delay to say that there should be no guns at presidential events

"Incrementalism isn't a different path to the same place, it could be a different path to a different place"
Stoller


[ Parent ]
Mao was wrong. (4.00 / 3)
Just these past few weeks we've seen Glenn Beck go "on leave" because Liberals pressured advertisers into dropping him, and the Whole Foods Boycott picking up steam. Meanwhile, we've raised more money for our Healthcare Heroes in a few days than Big Insurance pays the Blue Dogs for a whole year.

That's real power, and guns have nothing to do with it.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
Sadie, (4.00 / 1)
he went on a vacation that had been scheduled months ago.

Now we'll see if he comes back.

"Incrementalism isn't a different path to the same place, it could be a different path to a different place"
Stoller


[ Parent ]
Whatever. (4.00 / 1)
But I will take the power to make Wal Mart pull a sponsorship over carrying a gun to a townhall any day.

The gun can only be used once, and then you're in jail. Pulling someone's sponsors can be done over, and over, and it works better every time.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
Maybe I am being too sensationalistic (4.00 / 2)
But the steps to fascism are very real to me.  My parents were Polish Jews and survivors of the Holocaust.  I was born in a displaced persons camp. The seemingly slow steps to fascism....involve some kind of violence...if only to decency and accepted norms of behavior.

Hannah Arnedt is very right.  Evil is very banal. And all we need are for the norms of society to shift some to enpower the wrong people.

"Incrementalism isn't a different path to the same place, it could be a different path to a different place"
Stoller


[ Parent ]
I'm not denying the steps to fascism (0.00 / 0)
I'm denying our powerlessness in the face of it.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
I don't have any guns (0.00 / 0)
But I'm glad that they're legal in the US. I'm much more concerned about the trend of federalizing local police forces, and have you not heard that the Pentagon want to do away with posse comitatus, and gain the "authority" to post almost 400,000 military personnel throught the US in times of "emergency of a major disaster"? Oh, and let's not forget that we had Blackwater mercenaries patrolling NO after Katrina.

I feel the same way towards law-abiding citizens  armed with guns that I do with a local cop who is honest and decent - you know, not the kind that tasers a pregnant woman. Just like good cops help keep criminals at bay, good citizens - if push comes to shove - will help keep fascists (or more generally, authoritarians) at bay. As for whether citizens allowed to carry arms in public is something that would make for more or less crime, I can easily guess whether or not criminals would favor such laws, or not. (Certainly, such a consideration would inform the discussion, no?) In fact, I don't have to guess, if Paul Craig Roberts is to be believed:

New York state Sen. Timothy Sullivan, a corrupt Tammany Hall politician, represented New York's Red Hook district. Commercial travelers passing through the district would be relieved of their valuables by armed robbers. In order to protect themselves and their property, travelers armed themselves. This raised the risk of, and reduced the profit from, robbery. Sullivan's outlaw constituents demanded that Sullivan introduce a law that would prohibit concealed carry of pistols, blackjacks and daggers, thus reducing the risk to robbers from armed victims.

The criminals, of course, were already breaking the law and had no intention of being deterred by the Sullivan Act from their business activity of armed robbery. Thus, the effect of the Sullivan Act was precisely what the criminals intended. It made their life of crime easier.

This notion may confuse those who have kneejerk reactions, conflating any right wing dude who values his gun, with some sort of brown-shirted brawler that want to help usher in a new authoritarian age, ala the Germany's SA and Mussolini's gang. (Or, more irrationally, conflating any law-abiding, apolitical dude who values his gun with the neo-brown-shirts). I'd be amazed if even 1% of US gun owners harbor secret dreams of violently overthrowing the US government. But if anybody has facts to the contrary, do share them with us, won't you? Myself, though I've seen videos of obnoxious town hallers who crossed the line from raucous to deliberately disruptive, I didn't see or hear of anybody pulling out a gun and threatening anyone.  Did you?

I have a hard time taking seriously the notion that the Armey's of this country want to whip up angry, deluded mobs so that, eventually, they can use the mob to overthrow the government. To exploit the irrational for their own political ends, sure. But if I was a Republican bigwig who wanted to overthrow the US government, I wouldn't rely on  militias (who are likely thoroughly infiltrated with government spies, if they are of any size), much less town hallers who, last I checked, have 1st Amendment rights. Instead, I'd go with the Blackwaters, since they have bigger guns, plus helicopters, plus other stuff, some of which is better than our own troops in Iraq got. Then, too, I'd also be concerned about traitors in our own military. What if Smedley Butler had been an honest man? And, more to the point, how many of our generals rise to the level of a Smedly Butler?

DemocracyABC.org
TheRealNews.Com
http://www.pdamerica.org


[ Parent ]
Smedley Butler WAS an honest man (0.00 / 0)
Of course, I meant "What if Smedley Butler was not an honest man?"

DemocracyABC.org
TheRealNews.Com
http://www.pdamerica.org


[ Parent ]
How Many Fascist Takeovers Have Been Stopped By Citizen Gun Ownership? (4.00 / 2)
I don't have any guns

But I'm glad that they're legal in the US.

Male fantasies notwithstanding, I find this notion beyond absurd.

This sort of fantasy is part of the problem, not part of the solution.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
You got me, there (0.00 / 0)
How many fascist takeovers have been attempted in countries with a level of gun ownership similar to that of the US?

I talked to an old-timer, who told me that during the Depression, a cop shot and killed a hungry kid who had stolen some food. The outraged locals then shot and killed the cop. I don't know what happened after that, but I assume no more shootings by cops in that town, to protect the rights of a loaf of bread.

Also, while not the exactly the same question as  yours, is the American Revolution even conceivable without an armed citizenry?  

DemocracyABC.org
TheRealNews.Com
http://www.pdamerica.org


[ Parent ]
My Point (4.00 / 2)
is that:

(1) Guns are not nearly as effective at protecting our freedoms as the building of a strong civic culture is.  

(2) People who rely on guns to protect our freedoms often as not are themselves quite destructive of our civic culture.

While it's true that the American Revolution would not have succeeded had the American people had no guns, the simple fact is that not that many people actually used a gun during the Revolutionary War.  In contrast, an enormous number of people read Common Sense, and it's commonly accepted that without Common Sense, the Revolution would have probably failed.

It was a broadly shared spirit of shared struggle for common ideals that was critical to the Revolution's success.  Given that, one way or another the material means to fight for freedom would have been found.  Without that, all the firepower in the world would have been useless.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Gene Sharp (4.00 / 2)
makes an excellent argument that it was the nonviolent aspects of the Revolution (shunning, boycotts and strikes) that did as much or more to advance our cause than the violence.

Of course it's harder to erect a statue honoring a boycott, and there are no battlefields to visit.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
I would call the stolen election 0f 2000 (4.00 / 3)
a successful  takeover.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
Thieves (4.00 / 1)
The thieves in judges robes or corporate suits are the most effective.

[ Parent ]
Meanwhile (4.00 / 2)
what did guns do to stop the war, or prevent the coup of 2000?

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
I am not even going to deal with your argument becasue you ween't really dealing with mine (4.00 / 1)
I wasn't talking about the violent overthrow of a government.  I was talking about intimidation of those who disagree with them.  

By the way Hitler was duly elected.  

"Incrementalism isn't a different path to the same place, it could be a different path to a different place"
Stoller


[ Parent ]
Buried in my longish post (0.00 / 0)
was the following:

Myself, though I've seen videos of obnoxious town hallers who crossed the line from raucous to deliberately disruptive, I didn't see or hear of anybody pulling out a gun and threatening anyone.  Did you?

Meanwhile, you said,

And the recent teabagger events, even with the president, they are willing to show them and to use tham as threats at the very least. The mere threat of violence is enough to keep many people from participating.

Would you please give us at least one account of somebody who used their gun in a threatening way? I presume that, if you believed that them merely having the guns present on their persons was "using them as threats", you would have said so. So, how exactly did they use their guns in a threatening way?

The only ways that I know of, to use guns in a threatening way, is to either pull it out of a holster and point it in somebody's general direction, or else just display it, along with a verbal taunt, or at least a hard stare (like a gang member).  

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[ Parent ]
Then you are naive. (4.00 / 2)


Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
Sadie is 150% right (4.00 / 1)
The mere sight of a gun is intimidating and threatening.....I can't believe I have to make that clear.  

If the gun is not intimidating/threatening then by the rationale of the NRA it would be worthless.  Their point and yours is that people see the gun as a deterrent.   They see that someone is carrying a gun so they don't start trouble.   The threat of using a gun by thr NRA rationale will keep others from doing bad things...like using a gun.  Therefore if a gun wasn't threatening it wouldn't work...i.e. therefore a gun must be inherently threatening.  

And there indeed are people who have not gone to townhall events becasus they didn't want to be somewhere where people carry guns.  So it's already working at squelching people's First Amendment rights.

"Incrementalism isn't a different path to the same place, it could be a different path to a different place"
Stoller


[ Parent ]
Gary Null went to teabagging events and did interviews, on film (0.00 / 0)
His accounts of why teabaggers demonstrated reads very differently from that of armchair liberals. Indeed, he found independents attending who had very legitimate questions about the debt that is being incurred in their name. Hopefully, he or somebody else will be doing the same with the town halls. My take on the gun carriers is not that they are trying to intimidate anybody, but rather that they are making a "Don't tread on me (I have rights)" kind of statement. (Barrie Zwicker, a Canadian leftie, has done polite demonstrations on the streets of Canada, partly to disabuse the police of any notion that he does not have such a right. Really.)

It'd be nice to see proof, in the form of asking them, in numbers large enough to make strong statistical inferences.

It's not that hard to cherry-pick the most extreme members of any demonstration. Take a look at zombietime, and then tell us whether it's fair to say that most lefties espouse nudism, or give their kids coloring books like "A Child's Guide to Nihilism"?

BTW, here's Ron Paul being asked by Anderson Cooper of CNN about whether it's OK to disrupt town hall meetings.

Anderson Cooper: And finally, has the dialogue, the debate, at least some of what we're seeing at these town hall meetings, people comparing President Obama to a Nazi, is that the productive? I mean, when you see these images and you hear the people yelling, what do you think?

Ron Paul: Well, I think it's very unproductive. I think it's very destructive and you know me well enough that I was never supportive of much of what George Bush did and I really didn't like his foreign policy, but generally speaking, whenever I wrote, if you look at all my speeches, I hardly ever, but probably never bring up partisan politics when I'm on the House floor or talk about President Bush, President Bush this or Obama this or Obama that.

So no, I don't think it's productive at all. I believe you have deal with ideas. Ideas have consequences. Bad ideas have bad consequences. Good ideas have good consequences and that's what I deal with because I just as soon avoid the partisan bickering.

Tell me, am I being naive to believe Ron Paul when he says, essentially, "no", and furthermore points to himself as an example of a person who argues ideas in his Congressional speeches, rather than people?

Hopefully, you'd be interested in establishing the facts of the matter regarding who is carrying a gun for reasons of intimidation, and what agenda people who would incite such behavior are following. I find the following suggestive: On Aug. 18, a report was published on Hal Turner

Hal Turner worked for the FBI from 2002 to 2007 as an "agent provocateur" and was taught by the agency "what he could say that wouldn't be crossing the line," defense attorney Michael Orozco said.

"His job was basically to publish information which would cause other parties to act in a manner which would lead to their arrest," Orozco said.

If this seems like a convenient lie, please read the next two paragraphs:

Prosecutors have acknowledged that Turner was an informant who spied on radical right-wing organizations, but the defense has said Turner was not working for the FBI when he allegedly made threats against Connecticut legislators and wrote that three federal judges in Illinois deserved to die.

"But if you compare anything that he did say when he was operating, there was no difference. No difference whatsoever," Orozco said.

(emphasis mine)

I believe that, unlike communicating with a Ron Paul, it's completely unproductive to try and have a meeting of the minds with a lot of the town hallers. (Barney Frank's line about having a discussion with a piece of furniture comes to mind.) I also believe that a) a productive meeting of the minds is possible with many, maybe most of them b) it's not at all clear to me that the town hallers are typical of America's self-described conservatives, anyway and c) the 800 pound gorilla in the American civic life 'room' are the corporations and banksters; if you want to avoid a "soft fascism", I don't think it's in your interest not to look for allies, wherever you can find them. If right wing demagogues cause you not to even look for them, because you've already come to a sweeping conclusions based on atypical members, whose agenda do you think that would serve, the most?

The questions I'd most like to ask the teabaggers and town hallers is: "Where were you when the Bushies were racking up astronomical levels of debt?" and "Are you aware that teabaggers and townhallers have corporate and Republican corporatist-connected sponsorship?" (In other words, I'm most interested in learning their level of awareness that they are targets of manipulation, and many of them are dupes. I'm also interested in learning how many of them are either hypocrites or hopelessly partisan or irrational. On the issue of 'hopelessly irrational', see this recent study.) Yes, I'd also like to know how many of them want a violent overthrow of the US government (like that's going to happen) and how many of them are there to intimidate, in the sense of implied physical violence from the barrel of a gun. I find this question far less interesting because I think I have a good sense of the answer. I know many people who repeat right wing talking points. None of them have even hinted that they'd be interested in a violent overthrow of the US government, don't own guns, anyway, and if they did, I can't even imagine that they would try and intimidate a Congressman with them.

I do know a guy who is a bit of a gun fanatic (and a funeral parlor director - don't think he doesn't get his share of ribbing :-) ) who I have never heard talk about politics, except for his fear of having his guns taken away from him. I can easily see him attending a townhall with a gun, where the gun itself is a form of protest. But intimidate anybody with his gun? No, no way. (Or, perhaps there is one way - and that is if he felt the Congressman was going to vote to take away his guns.)

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http://www.pdamerica.org


Oo, sorry (0.00 / 0)
This was supposed to be a reply to Sadie Baker's post, "Then you are naive"

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http://www.pdamerica.org


[ Parent ]
Then my comment stands. (4.00 / 2)
If you think brandishing a gun at a public meeting is a non-threatening gesture then you don't underdstand very much.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
Were people really brandishing guns? (0.00 / 0)
From dictionary.reference.com

-verb (used with object)
1. to shake or wave, as a weapon; flourish: Brandishing his sword, he rode into battle.

If so, I would have thought that somebody would have snapped a picture, what with picture cell phones, and all.

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[ Parent ]
I Have To Agree With Sadie (4.00 / 1)
You are naive.  Astonishingly so.

(If you ask, these folks will also tell you they aren't racists, including the crowd who cheered the destruction of a poster of Rosa Parks.)

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
No argument that people cheering the burning of a Rosa Parks poster are racists (0.00 / 0)
Now, tell me how many of these fired up racists went home and lynched somebody? Don't be shy, now. Tell me what you really believe.

Also, what is your opinion about black people who were present? Were they so intimidated that they left? Or were they so intimidated that they slinked home, but vowed never to attend another town hall until the racists are screened out, at the door?

Note well that I'm not asking you if they were offended. Of course they were offended. I'm asking you if they were intimidated.

If you're really feeling rambunctious, you can tell me how you came to your opinion.

FWIW, I have no problem from banning guns from political meetings. However, if a locality has laws allowing it, and people choose to exercize that right, yes, even if it's as a form of protest, I have no problem with that, either.

If it really bothers you (or anybody else) that guns would be allowed to a public meeting, in localities where such is normally allowed, then why don't you agitate for either a temporary ban, or else holding them on private property, where such a right can be negated by the property owner? One technique already used by Congress critters to tame the town hall disruptors was to hold meetings in a church. AFAIK, churches are private property. Therefore, AFAIK, they can demand that people leave their firearms at home.

If there's a simple solution to a simple problem, I have to wonder why it's not being applied. From my perspective, when I see a lot of energy being wasted on an emotional issue that is distracting from issues that should be front and center, I have to wonder why. I think it more than likely that the healthcare 'reform' is likely to be, as Conyers has said, "crap". I haven't heard stories of lefties and independents attending the town halls, excoriating Obama for dealing away Medicare Part D (instead of leading the charge to fix it), nor have I heard stories of lefties and independents excoriating Democratic Congress critters for not excoriating Obama for same.

What I do hear amounts to an excuse not to do so, and furthermore (of greater concern to somebody like myself who is more focussed on fixing dysfunctional democratic processes, rather than one or two issues, at a time) an excuse not to seek out the more rational individuals amongst those you generally disagree with, not so much to challenge them on the current issue*, but also to initiate a transpartisan dialog about removing the 800 pound gorillas from the room, that created much (most?) of our problems, to begin with.

Why bother if they're mostly all proto-fascists, beyond the pale, just waiting for their marching orders from Dick Armey to go to the next level, and start murdering people?

Don't get me wrong - I certainly believe fascism is a real concern, and we are partly there. I just can't understand the logic of extrapolating unnecessarily and illogically onto people that you're going to need to make radical changes with. The woman holding the Obama picture, made out as Hitler, is not a good candidate for having a profitable discussion with, nor are people who would cheer at the burning of a picture of Rosa Parks - I'm sure we agree on that much.

Thom Hartmann is exemplary in debating and discussing with people he generally disagrees with. I'm not sure what he's said about town hall protesters who carry guns (I'm sure he's said something, I just don't know what), but I am sure that he hasn't used them as an excuse to stop debating and interviewing right wingers, libertarians, and, well, all comers. I also doubt that he's advised people not to attend them, for fear of people carrying guns, though I must confess I'm not sure, one way or the other.

In fact, that leads me to a suggestion. At a web site like Open Left, you are generally "blogging to the choir". Why don't you seek out a leading righty blog, and essentially challenge them to an online debate? The format I envision is  not like the comments section - discrete arguments, few in number, traded back and forth. I.e., essentially a discussion. Instead, the format I envision is more like letters to a science journal, where a slew of arguments is presented as a coherent whole, and the replies are similarly composed. Or, in blog terms, you are trading diaries back and forth. The basic ground rule would to eschew ad hominems and cheap shots. Diaries comprising the debate would be cross-posted.

Have you ever listened to Thom Hartmann's show? It's on 12 - 3 EST. http://www.thomhartmann.com/

* e.g., asking them what their solution is to the healthcare mess

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http://www.pdamerica.org


[ Parent ]
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