[I Should Be] Looking For The Next FDR With Michael Lind

by: Paul Rosenberg

Tue Sep 01, 2009 at 19:00


Another week, another perplexing Michael Lind piece in Salon, "Can Obama give 'em hell before it's too late?". First, the good part, to dispel the false impression that I'm constantly bad-mouthing him.  Toward the end of his article he imagines the sort of speech that Obama ought to give, in the spirit of FDR during the 1936 campaign.  "A Rooseveltian or Trumanesque campaign speech, addressing the concerns of the American majority, invoking the heroic history of American reform and naming the enemy, practically writes itself," he says.  This is how it begins:

"My fellow Americans, we say that healthcare is a right of all citizens. The other party says that it is a privilege for those who can afford it. If you agree with them that healthcare is a privilege, not a right, then vote for them. We would like to persuade you to join us, but if we can't, then we are going to defeat you.

"Decades ago our opponents tried to block Social Security and Medicare, using the same bogus arguments that they are using today against healthcare reform. They said Social Security and Medicare would bankrupt the country. They were wrong. Once we fix the cost inflation of our broken medical sector, with some minor tweaks Social Security and Medicare can be made solvent forever.

"Decades ago, our opponents said that Social Security and Medicare would turn the United States into a fascist or communist police state. They were wrong then and they are wrong now. And not only are they wrong, they are hypocritical. Many of our opponents who claim absurdly that universal healthcare will bring tyranny to the U.S. have defended some of the greatest assaults on civil liberties and the rule of law in American history during the previous administration.

"They can draw a Hitler mustache on me. They can draw a mustache on the Mona Lisa, for all I care. They are wrong and we are going to defeat them.

"We won the elections and we are the majority. We would like to build the biggest consensus possible, but progress is more important than consensus. Our job is to help the American people, not split the difference between right and wrong by giving a veto to the party that the American people have rejected....

I agree totally.  That would be a great speech.  Where I differ from Lind is not in terms what the Democrats need to do.  It's in terms of understanding why they don't.

Paul Rosenberg :: [I Should Be] Looking For The Next FDR With Michael Lind
One way to explain how I differ from Lind is to look at the subhead of his piece.  Now writers generally don't get to choose their headlines and subheads.  I don't know what Salon's policy is.  But regardless of who wrote it, I do think it captures the flavor of Ling's argument: "Why can't Democrats mobilize the public for healthcare reform? Blame the demagogy gap."

In contrast to that, I would point out that there are two quite distinct meanings of the word "demagogue":

1 : a leader who makes use of popular prejudices and false claims and promises in order to gain power
2 : a leader championing the cause of the common people in ancient times

Put simply, a definition 1 demagogue is nothing but a pale imitation of a definition 2 demagogue.  And for me, the difference between real and fake is not best characterized in terms of a gap.  More and better fakery on the left is not whats called for here.  I don't think for a moment that that's what Lind is calling for--despite passages such as this:

The most dangerous deficit that the United States faces is not the budget deficit or the trade deficit. It is the Democrats' demagogy deficit.

Rather, Lind's problem is that he fails to clearly articulate what he does mean, in part because he he misunderstands the players today, as well as misunderstanding past history.  I've argued before that he misunderstands liberals, progressives and the left.  But he also mischaracterizes the right as well.  For example:

The irony is that the modern conservative movement started out by opposing the very populism it later embraced. The late William F. Buckley Jr. was influenced by the philosopher Albert Jay Nock, a family friend who despised mass democracy. Buckley's never-published philosophical manifesto, written in the 1950s and early 1960s (he allowed me to read the manuscript), was a critique of the mass society, inspired by the Spanish philosopher Ortega y Gasset's "The Revolt of the Masses."

Don't look now, Michael, but they still despise mass democracy.  It's not only why they won the 2000 election 5-4 wihtout a hint of shame, or why they're forever at war with voter registration drives, it also goes back to the Straussian roots of neoconservatism, with its ferverent belief in the rule of the few and the need for "noble lies" to keep the lower orders in line.  It's not just the neocons---every species of conservatism contains some version of this same belief.  Conservatism is elite rule, and mass submissiveness.

Furthermore, Buckley also started off as a big apologist for the leading mid-century American demagogue, Joseph McCarthy.  He and Brent Bozell co-wrote a book defending McCarthy, McCarthy and His Enemies, in 1954.  In short, that's not irony you're looking at, Micheel.  It's the same old conservative double standard that they've always believed in.

If Lind is still confused over what conservatism is, he's equally confused about who the post-1950s progressives are.  First we get yet another round of his muddled version of 50s and 60s politics--not even coming close to realizing that the intellectuals he cites from the 50s were the establishment that activists from the 60s were partially struggling against:

While the right was rejecting its gloomy elitism and embracing the mass society and populist politics, liberalism was moving in the other direction. Liberal intellectuals, shocked by McCarthyism and the rejection by the voters of the urbane Adlai Stevenson for Dwight Eisenhower, concluded that the American people themselves were the problem. In "The Age of Reform" and other works, the influential liberal historian Richard Hofstadter argued that the Progressive and Populist movements, far from being the precursors of New Deal liberalism, were reactionary movements by downwardly mobile professionals or farmers suffering from "status anxiety." Seymour Martin Lipset and other sociologists and historians including Daniel Bell and Peter Viereck argued that many members of the working class had "authoritarian personalities" and that populism here as in Europe could lead to fascism. Although more accurate historians and pollsters demolished their caricature of working-class Americans as proto-Nazis suffering from "status anxiety," the damage had been done. The New Left of the 1970s and 1980s, clashing with socially conservative blue-collar "hard-hats," were if anything even more hostile to the white working class, and sought allies instead among blacks, immigrants and various "social movements," most of them staffed and run by members of the college-educated upper middle class.

I've already critiqued this misrepresentation of history in my diaries "A Stuck Pig Squeals: Michael Lind's Analytical Confusion Reflects Traditional Southern Apologetics" (in sections "Evil Liberal Bigots Called Conservatives Crazy!" [Parts 1 & 2]) and "Who's Calling Who Crazy? Centrist/Extremist Theory & The Marginalizaiton of The American Majority".  So let me just add that in fact, a good deal of the New Left were white working class--at least in upbringing.  Many SDSers, like Tom Hayden, were the first in their families to go to college, and that's where a good deal of their radicalism came from.  In contrast, it was George Meany and Richard Daley who sold out their supporters, whose sons were the principle victims of the senseless war that they mindlessly supported.

But Lind goes even more off track when he gets contemporary in the next paragraph:

Whereas progressives and populists alike had been able to invoke the people against the interests, the mid-century liberals and many of their successors on the center-left to this day fear the people even more than they fear the interests.

There is simply zero evidence for this.  But it fits neatly into the story Lind wants to tell, which continues:

They worry that if liberals rile up the crowd against Wall Street, the rampaging mob, like the torch-bearing Transylvanian villagers in the old Universal Pictures Frankenstein movies, might turn on the universities or carry out political pogroms against minorities.

Which is why Tom Hayden, Barbara Ehrenreich, Jesse Jackson and Eleanor Smeal were all over cable news demanding that the Dems bail out Wall Street.  Yes, I remember it like it was just yesterday!

Oh, wait...

The logic of what comes next is impecable. There's just one problem, the "liberalism" Lind speaks of is not American liberalism.  It's Fox News liberalism ala Alan Colmes:

When passion and polemic are ruled out as uncivil, when appeals to the people and their tradition are ruled out by liberalism's own theory of itself, it is hard to see how there can be a popular liberal politics, as distinct from a politics of brokering among interests or elite reforms from above. It follows that liberals should focus on keeping the public calm, while carrying out reforms on their behalf -- but without their participation -- on the basis of negotiations among politicians, public-spirited nonprofit activists, and enlightened interest groups. The Obama administration's approach to healthcare reform has followed this script exactly.

Or Versailles liberalism ala Joke Line, as Glenn Greenwald discusses, also in today's Salon:

I'm ambivalent about whether even to acknowledge this obviously disturbed, Cheneyite rant from Joe Klein.  On the one hand, I don't want to be dragged down into what is, for him, quite clearly a deeply emotional and personal matter (having its roots in things like this, this and this); I don't think very many people care about petty feuds and engaging them isn't the purpose of what I do here.  Moreover, Klein's commenters (as usual) have done a thorough and masterful job of demolishing what he wrote, as have several others.  On the other hand, when someone like Klein -- first in a secret club composed of several hundred journalists, editors, bloggers and other peers and colleagues, and then using a megaphone like Time -- repeatedly calls you a military-hating, unpatriotic, ignorant, Limbaugh-like, "mean-spirited, dishonorable, graceless, bully" who doesn't care if America Stays Safe, and that then is "reported" in various places, it's probably prudent to say something.  So I'll just make a couple of general points illustrated by all of this that I think are worth making:

(For the full context of this, see dday.)

The upshot here is that it's not the least bit about about being "liberal".  It's all about being Versailles:

It's never personal for me; if, tomorrow, Joe Klein writes something commendable, I'll praise him (as I've done -- quite lavishly -- in the past when warranted).  But for way too long, these individuals were permitted to spout their received wisdom, enforce their orthodoxies, and fulfill their assigned functions with no checks, no scrutiny and no effective criticisms.  Even now, with the democratization of punditry brought about by the Internet, the rewards they can offer (to join their club, to have access, to be invited, to be given platforms, to be one of them) and the punishments they can dole out (to be denied all of that and be shunned) make many people who could hold them accountable reluctant to do so.  Even well-intentioned people who begin as outsiders can be deterred by those influences; it's human nature. 

Last year, after I wrote critically about a well-known journalist who frequently appears on the TV and is considered "liberal," he emailed me (after first asking me to agree that our conversation would be private) to warn that I should be more "careful" about attacking "allies" if I wanted to expand my platforms and get on television.  That's how the culture works.  Those are the weapons which politicians -- and journalists -- use to try to punish those who criticize them and reward those who refrain from doing that.  But for people who are indifferent to those "rewards" and affirmatively want to be without them, establishment journalists can't control or otherwise deter them from shining a negative light on what they do.  It's natural that they're angry about that and bitterly resent those who do it, but that's just the nature of accountability.

In short, I want to cheer on Michael Lind when it comes to him arguing what the Democrats ought to be and do.  But when it comes to describing what they currently are, he seems not just hopelessly confused, but downright perverse, still the prisoner of his ideological past, unable to tell the difference between elitist insiders and us DFHs who've been battling against them for decades now.

I would like to join him in a search for next FDR.  It seems to me that nothing clarifies what's missing better than to see it materialize in the flesh.

I've got a two-part plan for doing it: First find Tom Joad, then FDR.


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Tom Morello's "Axis of Justice" Website (4.00 / 1)
Along with compadre Serj Tankian from System of a Down, here.

Their radio show originates at my local Pacifica Station, KPFK.

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
Lind might do better (0.00 / 0)
actually doing this himself. I'm all for calling on Obama to take these steps, but Obama is not the only one that isn't making this case.

Of course, I should heed my own advice.

Who are the best keepers of the people's liberties? The people themselves. The sacred trust can be no where so safe as in the hands most interested in preserving it.
James Madison


In 4 months Obama will have been in office for 1 year (0.00 / 0)
will he still be using the "hey, we just got here" excuse?

I'm with Lind (4.00 / 3)
I just finished reading almost everything Richard Hofstadter ever wrote, and he was profoundly anti-populist. Likewise much of the rest of the 50s Democratic intelligentsia (Bell, Schlesinger, Galbraith, etc., etc.), and  Stevenson and Kennedy too, to a degree. Government by experts and intellectuals was the ideal -- in the service of the majority and with the support of the majority, but NOT in response to popular movements of any kind.

You could say that Hofstadter et al were just a bunch of powerless intellectuals, but whenever I talk to a Democratic Party pro or aspirant of almost any age down to about 18 I find that they've been indocrinated into the Hofstadterian anti-populist dogma. And whenever I try to argue a populist line on a liberal Democratic website (even Democratic Underground, back in the day), I invariably end up arguing with at least a cool, anti-populist technocrat for home "populism" mean "Hitler".

The anti-democratic tendency within liberalism goes way back. Check out Walter Lippman and the New Republic liberals around 1915 or 1920. Lippman was utterly anti popular. Check out Grover Cleveland -- the only Demcratic President during the first 47 years after the Civil War, and more anti-labor than any Republican President. (Cristopher Lasch is good on the WWI New Republic).

I don't see your problem with Lind. It's been my experience that the Democratic Party everywhere is ruled by cool technocrats, whether DLCers or not.

As for the New Left, you're probably right about Tom Hayden et al, but they were marginal in the New Left agfter 1968, and the New Left was destroyed by 1975. That's a pretty epripheral question.

In short, the Democratic Party has always had a popular wing and an anti-popular wing, and most of the time the anti-popular wing has been dominant. By and large, the Democratic Party has only done the right thing in response to heavy pressure from popular movements outside the party. (I'm not sure that you and Lind disagree about this.)

In conclusion, let me repeat: Republican populism is fake, but Democratic elitism is real.  


And there's a significant (0.00 / 0)
people-are-the-problem strain in the ostensibly populist netroots.  

[ Parent ]
True, dat (0.00 / 0)
Just try to advance the idea that "maybe it's not such a good idea to call them morons all the time" and see where you get.

You will inevitably wind up in a flame war with someone for whom calling the common people a bunch of morons is the reason they get up in the morning.

sTiVo's rule: Just because YOU "wouldn't put it past 'em" doesn't prove that THEY did it.


[ Parent ]
Populism made Hofstadter break into hives (4.00 / 2)
as it summoned up images of proto-fascist pogroms in the wake of WWII.

Not even mainstream liberal historians take the argument in Age of Reform seriously anymore, and no one who has read Lawrence Goodwyn's work can do so either.  


[ Parent ]
I'm Afraid You've Misunderstood The Argument (4.00 / 4)
I'm not disputing that Hofstadter was anti-populist.  Everyone agrees on that (though a strong argument has been made that his views are more nuanced than is commonly supposed, and certainly more nuanced than others of his cohort).

What I'm disputing is that the 1950s progenitors of Centrist-Extremist theory can be taken as representing the progressive activists wing of the party that's part of a continuing line that runs through the New Left and on into the new social movements of 70s onward, and that these are the folks running the party today.

Just. Not. True.  

Hofstadter was part of the intellectual cohort that did the heavy lifting in seeking to marginalzie folks on the left with the same broad brush that it tarred the right with.  Only, of course, the right was represented by McCarthy, the left by the likes of Henry Wallace. Not exactly mirror images.  Still less so when you do the Mississippi equivalency: KKK vs. NAACP.

You could say that Hofstadter et al were just a bunch of powerless intellectuals, but whenever I talk to a Democratic Party pro or aspirant of almost any age down to about 18 I find that they've been indocrinated into the Hofstadterian anti-populist dogma. And whenever I try to argue a populist line on a liberal Democratic website (even Democratic Underground, back in the day), I invariably end up arguing with at least a cool, anti-populist technocrat for home "populism" mean "Hitler".

Of course that element exists in the party.  But that's not the dominant view of progressives in the party.  It's overwhelmingly the view of Blue Dog and DLC elements, and there are also progressives in DC and other power centers who succumb to such thinking.  But that's not the predominant view of progressive Democrats, and Lind never even bothers to try to argue otherwise--he just "argues" by assertion, which is no argument at all.

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
FWIW (0.00 / 0)
I agree with you that the equation of the "Centrist-Extremist" theorists with "the Left" is part of the problem and a legitimate critique of Lind.

Nonetheless, their anti-populism is shared by many who today think of themselves as progressive.  It's just more complicated than the straight line Lind is drawing here.

sTiVo's rule: Just because YOU "wouldn't put it past 'em" doesn't prove that THEY did it.


[ Parent ]
But That's NOT The Argument (4.00 / 2)
I don't deny that anti-populism infects a lot of folks thinking, including folks who consider themselves progressive.

What I deny is that they are anti-populist because they are progressive.

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
Sherrod Brown (4.00 / 7)
isn't a technocrat.  

And you're onto something when you bring up Lippman and his moment.

But the demise of the New Left was huge, and while, to many of its historians, the breakup of SDS symbolized its collapse, it did not embody it.  

The New Left mobilized millions of people behind issues like civil rights, war and the role of the state, and economic redistribution.  Indeed, the New Left is the only movement in American history to have succeeded in ending an imperialist war.  The New Left also transformed institutions of higher education, and gave birth to the gay rights movement and contemporary feminism.  

Mainstream Democratic party personnel, however, are too scared, stupid and blinkered by corporate largess and delusions of their own intellectual grandeur to realize the way these issues relate to classic American themes of rights, liberty, and economic prosperity.  

This misunderstanding of the New Left is haunting the debate over health care, trade, and labor issues as we speak and is hardly "peripheral" to where we are now.          


[ Parent ]
Which part of the Democratic Party is anti-populist? (4.00 / 4)
You conclude your comment with the following statement:
In short, the Democratic Party has always had a popular wing and an anti-popular wing, and most of the time the anti-popular wing has been dominant. By and large, the Democratic Party has only done the right thing in response to heavy pressure from popular movements outside the party.

Which I agree with one hundred percent. My experience with the Democratic Party is that the Party elite are very much against popular pressure even when it comes from members of their own State Executive Committee. In North Carolina (which is controlled, at the state level, by the Democratic Party) there is a huge gap between what the activists inside the Party want and what the leadership of the State deliver in actual legislature and governance.

But, Lind associates the anti-populism part of the Party with the Party's activist base, DFH's and progressive/ liberal advocacy groups. I agree with Paul that this wrong. Digby's analysis that it is Versailles Vs the unwashed masses is much more enlightening way to view the conflict.

Before I got involved with State Democratic Party I viewed the whole Party as a monolithic group that had sold out ordinary people for a seat at the table. Now, I see the elite of the Party do everything in their power to keep any truly Progressive/Liberal people, inside the Party, as far from actual power as possible while constantly paying lip service to Progressive/Liberal ideas and goals. The battle to keep Progressive from actually governing goes on as much inside the party as out.

The point is, much of the Party leadership that is anti-populist while it's base inside & out of the Party is populist. Blaming those who are actively trying to reform the Party for the failings of it's leadership is counter productive and I believe that is why Paul correctly gets so worked up about Lind.  


[ Parent ]
I always love it (4.00 / 5)
when some jerk who spent his youth shining his shoes, polishing his glasses and running after Ronald Reagan like a Hannah Montana groupie presumes to lecture me about the politics of the American left.

Buckley's never-published philosophical manifesto, written in the 1950s and early 1960s (he allowed me to read the manuscript), was a critique of the mass society...

And why would William F. Buckley so graciously allow him do that, one wonders. I doubt it was because Buckley suspected that he was destined one day to become a noted Salon columnist and historian of the left.

There's probably no cure for this kind of presumption, although I'd dearly love to lock Lind in a room -- a small room -- with Mike Davis for an hour, and find out for sure.


Sherrod Brown and Dennis Kucinich (4.00 / 7)
again and again and again post convincing victories in precisely the type of districts and regions that elite party nabobs like Bruce Babbitt, Terry McAuliffe, and now Barack Obama believe require DNC-type ideology to win and control.

And when Obama loses Ohio in 2012, Versailles will argue that he "moved too far to the left," completely ignorant of the fact that the exact opposite is true.  

Liberal elites have despised ordinary people since Mencken dismissed Bryant as a drooling baboon.  Without organized labor to keep them in check, their pseudo-intellectual contempt for working class concerns has come even more to the fore.  

If Obama doesn't realize who it is that really butters his political bread, 2012 will be a very lean year for establishment democrats.
               


Mencken was basically a machine Democrat, not liberal or progressive at all (4.00 / 1)
He admired the anti-labor Grover Cleveland as much as any other politician whatsoever. His basic political motives were hatred of Puritanism, contempt for the average man, and hatred of Protestant Christians (above all, Southerners.)

He lumped socialists, reformers, progressives, populists and liberals in with Holy Rollers and Prohibitionists, and he hated them all more or less equally. He was a Nietzschean amoralist elitist and a Roosevelt-hater.

In the Scopes trial, incidentally, the actual Populist was Darrow, Scopes defender, who had worked for the Populist Party. Bryan was a Democrat with populist Sympathies. If there was a Nazi among the three, it was Mencken, who had a lot of trouble deciding what he thought about Hitler.

In short, today's social liberal vs. economic liberal conflict goes way back.

 


[ Parent ]
Frisco "Liberals," Park Avenue "Progressives," and Old-School Union Democrats (0.00 / 0)
Paul Rosenberg has been trying to cover his sorry butt ever since he claimed in his previous column attacking Michael Lind that "elitist" labor organizations like the AFL  were...

"...firmly aligned with imperialist foreign policy, working closely with the CIA overseas, and supporting business-friendly puppet unions against ones actually rooted in the working class, a position rationalized because of alleged communist influence in the latter.  This was the logic that lead to unions supporting the Vietnam War, even as the vast majority of casualties were working class kids, and ultimately lead construction workers to becoming de facto foot soldiers for Nixon..."

So obviously Paul Rosenberg really loves unions, those imperialist tools of the CIA and foot-soldiers for Richard Nixon!

But as pointless as it may seem to debate a hysterical liar like Rosenberg, his "look at me" purity-trolling has at last succeeded, and...

I see you, Paul!

All over the left blogosphere, virtually the only problem with the Democratic Party which actually gets internet ink is the corporate centrism of Park Avenue Progressives like Barack Obama, but the other side of what happened to Democrats after they abandoned labor has been mostly ignored, and the poisonous identity politics of Frisco Liberals like Paul Rosenberg has flourished at the expense of the lunch-pail issues which Michael Lind wants to return to the heart of the Democratic Party.

Meanwhile, Old-School Union Democrats like Dennis Kucinich have been marginalized by the leadership of the Democratic Party, which sold out to Park Avenue Progressivism, meaning tax-cuts, free-trade and the rest of their ugly package, and also by supposedly left-wing Frisco Liberals who bitch-bitch-bitch about corporations while they likewise ignore lunch-pail issues which affect every American worker as well as the shrinking middle class.  

What Frisco Liberals like Paul Rosenberg really want is a Democratic Party transformed into an upscale bazaar of identity boutiques where color, gender, and gender-preference dominate all other issues...

...but they can't quite admit it, and when a little truth accidentally slips out, as in Paul Rosenberg's previous union-bashing blog about Michael Lind, then Mr. Rosenberg and his dishonest playmates try to cover their tracks as well as their limited repertoire of ideas allows.

But the fact remains that the Democratic Party, dominated by the corporate centrism of Park Avenue "Progressives" and identity-obsessed Frisco "Liberals" has acquiesced or collaborated with the evisceration of organized labor for the last forty years of Reaganism and Clintonism and the Bushes, and no amount of distortion and spin by low-concept propagandists like Paul Rosenberg can conceal that ugly truth.  


[ Parent ]
How do you feel about David Montgomery? (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
And Dennis Kucinich (0.00 / 0)
supports the LBGT agenda to the letter and makes no bones about it.

How do you reconcile your use of Kucinich in this criticism of so-called "identity boutiques" when Kucinich himself affirms the legitimacy - even urgency - of the LGBT (and feminist, &c., &c.) agenda?

I'm curious to hear how you tease these apparent contradictions into coherence, because what you have here is nothing more than a personal attack masquerading as political criticism.  Kucinich sees no either/or in lunchpail vs. LGBT/feminist/&c. - why do you use him to make a distinction that his politics explicitly denies?

Surely, you don't think the personal is necessarily political: or do you?


[ Parent ]
Of course Kucinich supports gay rights. (0.00 / 0)
But unlike Frisco Liberals like Nancy Pelosi, Kucinich didn't also roll over for every Republican and Democratic tax-cut and Supplemental war appropriation and violation of the Constitution that George W. Bush proposed.

The "contradiction" that your dim little brain thinks it sees is built into the identity politics of Frisco Liberals like Paul Rosenberg, who blamed unions for everything except kidnapping the Lindbergh baby in his previous column which I quoted, and likewise into the agenda of Park Avenue Progressives like Obama, who protected bankers to the tune of more than $2 trillion in actual outlays so far, with another $23.7 trillion at risk in guarantees on toxic assets, and meanwhile...

Obama's "plan" to rescue homeowners on the verge of losing their houses is like a cross between a nightmare and a joke, and...

One recent research report from Deutsche Bank estimates that roughly half of all U.S. homeowners will be under water by 2011.

But while Old-School Union Democrats like Kucinich also stand up for gays, where are the Park Avenue Progressives and Frisco Liberals who stand up for anything except their own narrow corporate and "identity" constituencies, and are only too happy to watch from their privileged niches while unions and the middle class are completely  fucked over?


[ Parent ]
You're utterly incoherent (4.00 / 1)
and not worth the time of a serious person.


[ Parent ]
Harharharhar!!! (0.00 / 0)
Did you run out of "ideas," wobbly?

But meanwhile, although these posts aren't "worth the time of a serious person," Paul Rosenberg is still following them and actually recommending your insubstantial, one-line put-down!

Harharharhar!!!

Pathetic!


[ Parent ]
No Progressive (4.00 / 2)
that I know promotes tax-cuts and free trade. Lot's of Democrats do, but the two groups are not synonymous.

[ Parent ]
Take Your Meds Jacob (4.00 / 1)
The AFL-CIO under George Meany most definitely did ally itself with American corporate imperialism around the globe.  This is a matter of very well-documented fact. From Sourcewatch:

American Institute for Free Labor Development
From SourceWatch

(Redirected from AIFLD)

The American Institute for Free Labor Development (AIFLD) was an AFL-CIO organization whose purpose was to undermine foreign unions. It received funding from the US government, mostly through USAID, and starting in the 1980s it began receiving funds from the National Endowment for Democracy. The AIFLD also had close ties to the Central Intelligence Agency.

The AIFLD most often concentrated on union officials in foreign unions, both paying them off as well as "training" them.

The AIFLD was created in 1962. A US Comptroller General's report says "In May 1961 the AFL-CIO approached private foundations, business men, and government agencies to seek financing for the planned Institute". One of the foundations it applied to was the Michigan Fund, identified by Congressional sources as a conduit for CIA money. AIFLD found welcome open pockets in the business group. George Meany, President of the AFL-CIO and also of AIFLD, boasted support from the "largest corporations in the United States . . . Rockefeller, ITT, Kennecott, Standard Oil, Shell Petroleum . . . Anaconda, even Readers Digest. . . and although some of these companies have no connection whatsoever to US trade unions, they are all agreed that it was really in the US interest to help develop free trade unions in Latin America, and that's why they contributed so much money".

J. Peter Grace, Chairman of the Board of AIFLD and also Chairman of the Board of the W.R. Grace Corporation, one of the ninety five transnational companies that back the Institute, applies the doctrine in tactical terms. Grace says AIFLD urges "cooperation between labor and management and an end to class struggle" and "teaches workers to increase their company's business". He says the goal of AIFLD is to "prevent communist infiltration, and where it exists . . . get rid of it"....

To criticize the subversion and co-optation of unions is not only not being "anti-union," it's the very essence of being pro-union--it's all about fighting for their functioning as independent, autonomous, self-defining organizations.

And, of course, it was due to decades of hard work by union activists who were either directly part of, or profoundly influenced by the New Left that organized labor did not support the Iraq War as it had supported Vietnam.  Instead we got US Labor Against the War.

Oh well, what you may lack in facts or logic you more than make up for in mendacious personal invective.

Needless to say, I haven't felt the least bit inclined to get into defending myself against your two-year-old tantrums in this comment thread.  I've focused entirely on defending the honor of those you've smeared in trying to attack me.  That doesn't mean for a moment that I accept any of the lies you've told about me.  They are simply too ludicrous and fact-free to bother with.

When you go around smearing large segments of the broader progressive side of the Democratic Party and it's allies, however, then there is good reason to respond, in oder that others reading you not be taken in by your venomous lies.

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
More horseshit from Rosenberg... (0.00 / 0)
It's not just the neocons---every species of conservatism contains some version of this same belief.  Conservatism is elite rule, and mass submissiveness.

Is there any conceivable crime or perversion which Paul "Frisco" Rosenberg hasn't already attributed to conservatives, those Satan-worshiping fiends?

And this time he can't weasel out of his imbecilic demonization of conservatives by claiming that he only meant "movement conservatives," since his latest silly rant is aimed at "every species of conservatism."  


Name some conservatives who don't believe in "elite rule." (4.00 / 2)
And what's with the "Frisco" dig; is that anti-gay or merely anti-urban?

[ Parent ]
Name-Calling. How Quaint! (4.00 / 4)
From Phil Agre's classic essay:

What Is Conservatism and What Is Wrong with It?
Philip E. Agre
August 2004

Liberals in the United States have been losing political debates to conservatives for a quarter century. In order to start winning again, liberals must answer two simple questions: what is conservatism, and what is wrong with it? As it happens, the answers to these questions are also simple:

   Q: What is conservatism?
   A: Conservatism is the domination of society by an aristocracy.

   Q: What is wrong with conservatism?
   A: Conservatism is incompatible with democracy, prosperity, and civilization in general. It is a destructive system of inequality and prejudice that is founded on deception and has no place in the modern world.

These ideas are not new. Indeed they were common sense until recently. Nowadays, though, most of the people who call themselves "conservatives" have little notion of what conservatism even is. They have been deceived by one of the great public relations campaigns of human history. Only by analyzing this deception will it become possible to revive democracy in the United States.

//1 The Main Arguments of Conservatism

From the pharaohs of ancient Egypt to the self-regarding thugs of ancient Rome to the glorified warlords of medieval and absolutist Europe, in nearly every urbanized society throughout human history, there have been people who have tried to constitute themselves as an aristocracy. These people and their allies are the conservatives.

The tactics of conservatism vary widely by place and time. But the most central feature of conservatism is deference: a psychologically internalized attitude on the part of the common people that the aristocracy are better people than they are. Modern-day liberals often theorize that conservatives use "social issues" as a way to mask economic objectives, but this is almost backward: the true goal of conservatism is to establish an aristocracy, which is a social and psychological condition of inequality. Economic inequality and regressive taxation, while certainly welcomed by the aristocracy, are best understood as a means to their actual goal, which is simply to be aristocrats. More generally, it is crucial to conservatism that the people must literally love the order that dominates them. Of course this notion sounds bizarre to modern ears, but it is perfectly overt in the writings of leading conservative theorists such as Burke. Democracy, for them, is not about the mechanisms of voting and office-holding. In fact conservatives hold a wide variety of opinions about such secondary formal matters. For conservatives, rather, democracy is a psychological condition. People who believe that the aristocracy rightfully dominates society because of its intrinsic superiority are conservatives; democrats, by contrast, believe that they are of equal social worth. Conservatism is the antithesis of democracy. This has been true for thousands of years....

Of course, not everyone who calls themselves a conservative consciously subscribes to this.  But, then, conservatism is fine with the idea of the "noble lie."  What matters isn't what every single self-identified conservative believes (after all, majorities support the welfare state), what maters is what conservatism as a philosophy and a movement stand for.  That's what's meant by a "species" of conservatism--a particular example of conservative ideology manifest in a particular place and time.

This is quite, quite different from demonizing individual conservatives, which you falsely imply that I do.

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
Yet you can argue that even the most thoughtful of conservatives (4.00 / 2)
like Wendell Berry - about the only guy who I can think of that is a conservative and not an asshole politically (hint hint, Mr. Freeze) - merely abet what they despise by failing to provide a real way to challenge it.  

[ Parent ]
I Don't Think Berry Really IS A Conservative (4.00 / 4)
Not that I'm an expert on him by any means.  But I read a fair amount of him in the 70s and 80s, and nothing that I read then qualified as such, that's for damn sure.

I seem to recall a piece published in Mother Jones, I believe it was, and the intro said something like, "Berry wrote to us, 'I don't think you appreciate how conservative I am,' and we wrote back, 'Oh, but we do!'"

The piece, as I recall, was about his perennial theme of preserving and regenerating local independent agricultural communities--something I've never seen supported by any conservative organization except in the context of "survivalism."  OTOH, that sort of agenda has had substantial progressive support going as far back as you care to go.

Maybe there's a whole other side to him that I don't know about, but if so, it's conceptually quite separable from what I have read.

Look, liberals and progressives have always had conservative instincts, if one defines that as "protecting tradition," or "ensuring cultural continuity," or whatever.  In fact, I've written before that liberalism is the "true" conservatism--especially in contrast to modern-day American "conservatism", which is actually reactionary, not conservative.  It's just that liberals have a different set of values, practices and ideals that they're interested in protecting and continuing.

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
He's a paleoconservative (4.00 / 2)
who grew up admiring the work of the Fugitive critics and identifies himself as an Agrarian.

He also thought enough of Allen Tate to dedicate a lovely poem to him.  


[ Parent ]
"Preserving and regenerating local independent (4.00 / 1)
agricultural communities" also has a long connection with Southern exceptionalism/authoritarianism.

See under "The Southern Agrarians."

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
He's anti-choice. (4.00 / 1)
That's asshole enough for me.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
Lind is deluded (4.00 / 4)
Obama won't give that speech. To date, Obama publicly has said nothing to show he believes health care is a human right. If Obama were to publicly say that, he would support the HELP bill at the least. Or single payer Medicare for all if cost concerned him.

Obama's silence for the most part, and his rumored support for the Finance committee bill, suggest Obama at least is a Blue Dog on health care. If true, it is delusional to ask or expect Obama to step up and do the right thing, which is to give this sort of speech and, far more important, drag the media anywhere and everywhere there are uninsured Americans and Americans fighting insurance companies to live and Americans banrupted by health care. It's easy. Michael Deaver knew the power of images. Obama knows, too.

If we want to be realists, we should do what Obama to date refuses to do and force Obama to get on our side. Surely there are kindred politicians with media savvy who can find Americans with health care issues and force the media to cover them? We've seen a few great examples. Let's find more.


"Treacly Bromides" (4.00 / 1)
That's the phrase that my partner used to describe the content of Obama's speeches during the campaign; it turns out (at least insofar as it represented Obama's sincere opinion about "bottom-up politics") that he was right.  

He would've been more credible if he hadn't himself been a Clintonista.  Someday, a book will be written about the fervid support she enjoyed across all demographics in the gay community.    


[ Parent ]
Obama: Health care "should be a right for every American" (0.00 / 0)
Here, October 7, 2008, during the campaign.

It appears to have been one of those "treacly bromides" after all.


[ Parent ]
I just read Lind's post (0.00 / 0)
Lind didn't seem to me to be targeting the few populists or progressives in the Democratic Party. He seemed to me to be targeting a pervasive Democratic inability to make a strong and aggressive case appealing to the majority and vigorously opposing the malefactors of great wealth. Not merely DLCers and Blue Dogs have this problem; plenty of non-populist wine-and-cheese liberals fold predictably when the chips are down.

I'm willing to give all the credit in the world to whatever populist / progressive Democrats there are, but I see them as an small and embattled minority. My interactions with the Democratic Party have convinced me that the Hofstadterians control it with an iron grip, and that this is true not only of the centrist / conservative Democrats but also of many liberals.

I firmly believe that progressivism has to be a non-party movement working (of necessity) through the Democratic Party (at least at the national level.)


Minorities can work wonders in legislatures (4.00 / 1)
when they form self-aware blocs that make demands and enforce them with action.


[ Parent ]
Zizka, where have you been? (0.00 / 0)
I agree with you.

I don't understand why Paul constantly feels the necessity to defend ALL of the New Left against every charge made.  For every Tom Hayden who's still fighting the good fight, there's a Bill Clinton with a much spottier record.

I went to college with one of the founders of today's "Democratic Strategist" a fairly tame collection of Beltway wisdom, a near-perfect embodiment of the "left wing of Versailles".  The guy was a rabble-rousing radical in the seventies and man, could he give a speech!  Many have morphed into something different from what they once were.  You can't disprove Lind on that score or read them out of the "progressive movement" retroactively.  

There are many who made the leap from the New Left to Versailles.  Others did not.  So what?  That is a trivial issue compared to Lind's main point, the utter failure of true economic populism to triumph in today's Democratic party.

sTiVo's rule: Just because YOU "wouldn't put it past 'em" doesn't prove that THEY did it.


[ Parent ]
I'm NOT Defending ALL of the New Left Against EVERY Charge Made (4.00 / 1)
I'm specifically taking on misguided and misleading charges.  That's why I'm objecting--because they are misguided and misleading.

For every Tom Hayden who's still fighting the good fight, there's a Bill Clinton with a much spottier record.

Hmmm, let's see. Tom Hayden wrote the Port Huron Statement, arguably the founding document of the New Left.  Bill Clinton?  He helped organize a couple of demonstrations in England.  Not exactly even in terms of stature in the New Left, if you catch my drift.

I went to college with one of the founders of today's "Democratic Strategist" a fairly tame collection of Beltway wisdom, a near-perfect embodiment of the "left wing of Versailles".  The guy was a rabble-rousing radical in the seventies and man, could he give a speech!  Many have morphed into something different from what they once were.  You can't disprove Lind on that score or read them out of the "progressive movement" retroactively.  

Nope.  They read themselves out of the movement.  And this:

Many have morphed into something different from what they once were.

is precisely my point.

One more time: I'm not saying that the phenomena Lind points to aren't real.  I'm saying that his descriptions are inaccurate and misleading.  There's quite a difference between people who are one thing at one time changing into something else--as you are arguing, and I would agree with you--and people simply being X once and forever, which is what Lind is arguing.

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
Well (0.00 / 0)
Point taken that my Bill Clinton example was weak.  How about, let's see, let's pull another name out of the way-back machine, how about Jerry Rubin?  I guess he "read himself out of the movement" too.  That would be true, but it doesn't negate Lind's point!  (nor does it gainsay the pivotal role Rubin played at a certain point in time).  I could give example after example, but what's the point?

To a large extent, Lind is trafficking in stereotypes.  But those stereotypes are persistent in the culture and we have to understand how they are used to hurt us.  The general public knows even less about this history than Lind does.  I find it useful to have that mirror, imperfect though it may be, held up for us to look at.

In some cases people who have morphed away from what they once were believe themselves to still embody the same values they always had.  In other cases, they explicitly repudiate them.  To the general public it doesn't matter and they couldn't care less.  They continue to wear the aura of New Left radical, deserved or not.

Look, we just disagree.  I don't see Lind arguing that people are "X once and forever".  But his perceptions are shared rather widely.  I find the kernel of truth in Lind much more important than what I consider to be your less important criticisms of his knowledge of the history of the sixties.



sTiVo's rule: Just because YOU "wouldn't put it past 'em" doesn't prove that THEY did it.


[ Parent ]
That's What Hegemonic Discourse IS! (4.00 / 1)
Look, we just disagree.  I don't see Lind arguing that people are "X once and forever".  But his perceptions are shared rather widely.

Sure Lind's perceptions are shared rather widely.  They're part and parcel of the hegemonic discourse about the evil, evil 60s.

That's precisely why it's so important to debunk them.

There were, indeed, many, many problems with 60s activism.  But rightwing lies about it will do nothing to help us understand what the real problems were.

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
Today's Democratic Party isn't the left. Neither is Michael Lind. (4.00 / 3)
That is a trivial issue compared to Lind's main point, the utter failure of true economic populism to triumph in today's Democratic party.

Not trivial, fundamental. Lind's polemic is innocent of history. The period between 1940 and 1952, between FDR's last hurrah and Joe McCarthy's crusade, was the pivot point of our present catastrophe, and Lind, along with many of Paul's critics here, have literally no idea of the variety and magnitude of the forces pressing on opposite ends of the political seesaw during those years. The New Left was an attempt to preserve the democratic vision against all of them. It was populist in the crucial sense that it defended the premise that without economic justice, no real democracy would be possible in the modern world, but it never pretended that anything less than genuine democracy was its ultimate goal.

Lind is the trivializer here, not Paul. He learned that, and much more, when he was running with the people he mistook for the victors. Now that they don't look so victorious, he's switched sides, and flatters himself that only lips which once kissed Reagan's ass can speak the truth about what's wrong with liberalism.

So what? you ask. Well, I'll tell you what. You're gonna have to face the same demons we faced 40 years ago. It ain't gonna be any easier for you than it was for us. Pissing on the Democratic Party's shoes is just the opening act. It gets much, much harder as you go along.


[ Parent ]
Please don't mistake me for a twenty-something (0.00 / 0)
I am of your generation.  What you were part of forty years ago, I was part of forty years ago.

I'm not attacking the entire New Left, but I do think Paul leaps to its defense entirely too quickly sometimes.  The first argument I ever had with Paul was over Bill Ayers last year.  I find him an extremely irritating person and I have met him.  He fancies himself an educational activist and yet sent his kids to the toniest private school in Chicago.  I completely agree with the critique that Katha Pollitt made of him in the Nation last year after the election, and she, of course, is also rather famously of our generation.

This really is sectarianism of the worst sort.  What is the point of ripping every critique made by Michael Lind, especially when Paul agrees with at least half of everything that Lind has to say?

Why is so bloody important that Lind understand the sixties exactly as Paul does?

 

sTiVo's rule: Just because YOU "wouldn't put it past 'em" doesn't prove that THEY did it.


[ Parent ]
Sectarianism (4.00 / 2)
It's not sectarian to point out that Lind misinterprets history, and does so in a way that very conveniently pretends that the left didn't, doesn't, and won't ever exist. He also seems to imagine that FDR was Ronald Reagan in disguise.

And if we're gonna namedrop, I'll see your Bill Ayers, and raise you a Mark Rudd and a Jerry Rubin. As it turns out, I also knew some of the players, and agree that many -- the aforementioned most definitely among them -- never represented anything but themselves. Then again, I'm tempted to repeat your so what? The fact that the New Left never won a battle, and was buried by history, was hardly due to their opportunism, any more than Dan Quayle was responsible for the demise of the Republican Party.


[ Parent ]
agreed (0.00 / 0)
The fact that the New Left never won a battle, and was buried by history, was hardly due to their opportunism, any more than Dan Quayle was responsible for the demise of the Republican Party.

On that, we agree.

Funny you should mention Rubin at the same time I was also mentioning him in a reply to Paul. :-)

sTiVo's rule: Just because YOU "wouldn't put it past 'em" doesn't prove that THEY did it.


[ Parent ]
not agreed (0.00 / 0)
And if we're gonna namedrop, I'll see your Bill Ayers, and raise you a Mark Rudd and a Jerry Rubin. As it turns out, I also knew some of the players, and agree that many -- the aforementioned most definitely among them -- never represented anything but themselves.  Then again, I'm tempted to repeat your so what?

Sorry, I think Ayres' self-important strutting has been hurting the rest of the movement for years, from the seventies down to 2008.  His refusal to admit any significant mistakes has made himself a lightning rod that we are unwilling forced to remain attached to.

sTiVo's rule: Just because YOU "wouldn't put it past 'em" doesn't prove that THEY did it.


[ Parent ]
Blaming Ayers (4.00 / 3)
Well, the victors' histories made sure that we'd know about Ayers and Rubin, and made equally sure that we wouldn't know about Carl Oglesby or Dick Flacks, Todd Gitlin, Paul Potter, Mike Davis, or Tom Hayden -- except, of course, for hayden during the years when he was married to Jane Fonda.

Lind continues that tradition, and contents himself with purely rhetorical attempts to reform the perfidious liberal. If you know who you are, allowing yourself to be mistaken for Bill Ayers is no one's fault but your own. Likewise with letting Michael Lind mistake you for RIchard Hofstadter.


[ Parent ]
Please! (0.00 / 0)
To refute false criticisms is a far cry from denying all criticisms.  Indeed, quite the opposite.  The false criticisms very much obscure what the true criticisms ought to be.

I'm not attacking the entire New Left, but I do think Paul leaps to its defense entirely too quickly sometimes.  The first argument I ever had with Paul was over Bill Ayers last year.  I find him an extremely irritating person and I have met him.

I don't know Bill Ayers from Adam.  But I do know a smear campaign when I see one.  He may be a total asshole.  But even when you frame a guilty man, it's still a frame job.

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
The Magic Word Here Is "Money" (4.00 / 3)
Just sticking to electeds here at first:

Politicians now spend so much time raising money that they don't have time to do their jobs as legislators, much less spend the time listening to constituents that they used to.  The result is often a lack of resolve that has nothing (or at best, very little) to do with their feelings or beliefs, but a fat lot of good that does them or us.

This is precisely the sort of systemic problem that progressive politics is all about solving.  Failing to see it as such, and instead seeing it in individualist terms is the very essence of non-progressive, if not outright conservative vision.

Now, I'm not saying this is the explanation for all Democrats.  But I am saying that it explains why a good number of professed progressives are not nearly as populist or stalwart as we would want them to be.  They need our help to change the political environment they are operating within.

Now for everyone:

I am in total agreement with Lind about what the Dems need to do and be--at least so far as this diary goes.  But he's very confused about folks who aren't elected leaders, but form the bulk of the progressive activist base.  Some things he's said, I agree with--as when his criticisms parallel those that educationaction has made here with a good deal more clarity, consistency and precision.

But those are problems that descend not from the nature of New Left progressivism, they descend from the nature of our current political culture, which Augustus Cochrane argues quite convincingly in Democracy Heading South owes a great deal to its functional similarities to the Southern political system circa 1950.  And some of those features include weak party systems, strong influence of money and media, and the rise of entrepreneurial politics--all of which is very slanted away from genuine populism, but can raise a powerful populist hunger that's readily met by demagogic faux populist.


"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
I think there is SOME connection (0.00 / 0)
between the nature of New Left progressivism and current anti-populism, though it's somewhat tenuous and not a straight link.

This would be seen in that line of the New Left that tended, often explicitly, in the sixties, to see the American working class (especially its white component) as irretrievably "bought off" and "not part of the solution, part of the problem."  There is some kind of crooked line between this attitude and the attitude that brought us NAFTA and continues to find reason to make common cause with neo-liberalism as against the "racist" desire of American workers to hold onto their jobs.

Please note, I'm not accusing anyone here of having these views, but I think we can all agree that they exist.  Just go to any discussion of the Labor Movement on Salon.com.

sTiVo's rule: Just because YOU "wouldn't put it past 'em" doesn't prove that THEY did it.


[ Parent ]
Too hard to believe (4.00 / 1)
You make it sound like leaders tend to be less populist then the grass roots.  But that makes no sense.  I can't think of a single reason why the people in power would think the power should be in the hands of those in power while the populous thinks the power should be in hands of the people.  That is just to contradictory.  Perhaps if there was some theory that could unify those two perspectives...  but I don't see it.

I can't make sense out of what you say (0.00 / 0)
and am curious to know what you mean.

In all seriousness, could you put it differently, maybe using some examples to illustrate your specific points?  Thanks.  


[ Parent ]
All seriousness? (4.00 / 1)
Ok, I'll try.

...unable to tell the difference between elitist insiders and us DFHs who've been battling against them for decades now.

My point is each individual is striving to maximize his or her own power in this structure.  The leaders are elitist largely because they are the leaders.  The grass roots are populist largely because that maximizes their power.

Also, there is a difference between liberal and conservative populism.  When a conservative promotes populism, it gives him more power.  When a liberal promotes populism, he gives up power.  Think about it.  (Some here would claim this proves  conservative populism is "false" populism.  I disagree, but I think the difference is true, nonetheless.)  This is why conservative leaders take the populist route more often.

I don't claim this explains everything, but when you see a simple relationship like this it is unwise to ignore it.


[ Parent ]
You talk about individuals (0.00 / 0)
maximizing power and then slide fairly effortlessly into "leaders" and "grass roots," i.e., organizations.  You then solipsistically equate function with preference - the role people play (and people = groups) determines what they want.   Yet these people and/or groups (again, it isn't clear) are not necessarily stable, nor do they have the coherence you impute.  

Also, Obama took some fairly populist stances during the election, which doesn't seem to jibe with the "simple relationship" you argue for.  

I'm - again - eager to see specific examples which refer to real cases that illustrate how you think what you say works.  


[ Parent ]
Just ideas (0.00 / 0)
I'm not describing any well thought out theory, just a general idea that seems to agree with the data.  Take it or leave it.

But all I'm describing is one motivation among thousands we all have, but a powerful one.  It doesn't explain everything but does encourage a trend.

Although I never thought of it before, Obama exactly jives with this.  The more power he has had the less populist he becomes.

And I'm only describing individuals.  But all groups are made up of individuals.

Again, no real theory here, just a bunch of thoughts.  I'm an intuitive, visual-spacial guy; just the way I think.  I'd have to really think it through, decide if any of this matters and then spend a long time writing it up to really explain it.  


[ Parent ]
I see the correlation (4.00 / 1)
and it makes sense on the surface.

But it doesn't capture the tremendous potential for power that would accrue to the Democratic party by embracing a demand-sided, pro-working class political agenda, defined by issues like EFCA and real health care reform.

One thing that made Obama's arguments against McCain persuasive after the economic meltdown is that people trust Democrats to look out for their interests, and this relates to consistent support for programs like Medicare and Social Security.  

If Obama and the Democrats legislated in that tradition, they'd be far more powerful, and as it stands now, they're squandering a once in a lifetime opportunity to dominate the national political scene.  

Of course, none of this is inconsistent with your point.  I'm just looking at it more from the "what should be" angle than your "this is where we are now" take.


[ Parent ]
I Think Mark's Right (0.00 / 0)
it's pretty straight-forward, really.  Of course it says nothing about how powerful the effect is, or about any other factors, but it seems as obvious to me as the force of gravity.

The only thing I couldn't figure out about his initial comment is whether it was meant to be the least bit snarky or not.  The delivery was so perfectly deadpan.

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
Could You Elaborate? (0.00 / 0)
Also, there is a difference between liberal and conservative populism.  When a conservative promotes populism, it gives him more power.  When a liberal promotes populism, he gives up power.  Think about it.


"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"

[ Parent ]
This is the same FDR that went on to fail to pass healthcare in 38 right? (0.00 / 0)
And that from 36-38 managed to lose his coalition and get the new deal stopped dead in it's tracks?

Left History since the Civil War (4.00 / 4)
I've spent the last few months reading about American political history since 1865 or so, especially the Democrats and their relation to extra-party movements. There's an enormous tradition: left third parties, populist third parties, dissident progressive factions in the two major parties (whom got no support from the machines, but could not easily be destroyed), independent candidates, politicized non-parties such as farmers'  organizations and labor groups, and independent activists and writers with no institutional connection.

Enormous as that tradition is, it's the minority tradition. The baseline in both major parties has always been the rule of wealth. We should not be surprised by the DLC and the Blue Dogs; conservatives of that type rued the Democrats between 1865 and 1912 (Bryan got the nomination but the party sabotaged him). Wilson himself was a natural conservative and was progressive only in response to pressure from outside the party, and you could almost say that about Roosevelt. Even Truman, Kennedy, and LBJ were not naturally progressive, liberal, or populist, and all of these Presidents had opposition from conservative Democrats (who were often but not always from the South).

Once you view it this way, on the one hand, you have a lot of models for your own future strategies, and on the other you'll be less susceptible to hurt feelings and feelings of shock and betrayal whenever the Democrats as a group look bad.

That said, Obama seems like a machine Democrat to me, and also like a Hofstadterian promising the ignorant masses benevolent, expert paternalism. Rahm Emmanuel even more so.

One the question of wine-and-cheese liberals, I've been reminded many times that strongly culturally-liberal Democrats are often quite aggressively anti-popular. I grew up a natural populist, and it took me decades to realize that most of the Democratic Party, including the controlling leaders, is in principle anti-populist and to a considerable degree anti-left.

As I now understand (I only read one of the earlier pieces), the Rosenburg-Lind debate is about whether or not cultural liberals are part of, or even primarily responsible for this elitism. All I can say is, often they are.

There's a second issue where I'm more sympathetic to Rosenburg, thougb I haven't seen it clearly stated yet. There's always been an enormous North-South division in American politics, and it seems that Lind is asking that the Democrats accomodate itself to Southern social conservativism and militarism. I couldn't support that; to me it would be like losing. (My ancestral populists were Yanke G.A.R types).

What I would hope to see would be a Democratic party not tied to the monied interests which would be able to capitalize on financial crimes and the resultant disasters instead of helping protect the perps. I can't see how the recent restructuring of the financial system won't have long-term ill effects on most ordinary Americans (not just the 10% unemployed), and if the Democrats don't capitalize on those ill effects (and they seem to be opposed in principle to doing so, just as they were during Grover Cleveland's time), the Republicans will. But since the Republicans are even more in bondage to finance than the Democrats, their rabble-rousing will have to be completely dishonest and bloodthirsty. We've seen their prototype teabagger approach, and we can expect it to get more blatant still. And while they look ridiculous to us, we should not assume that the teabaggers will fail, any more than the Sweiftboaters did.

A final point: we should expect the media as a whole to play a dubious role in all this (when they're not viciously opposed to us). Again, we can't be surprised or heartbroken about this kind of thing any more -- they are who they are, and they have bosses. (Ezra Klein has to be watched closely now.) All of the left organizations who accomplished anything at all had their own independent media -- at one time North Dakota had over a hundred tiny local leftist newspapers.

This is another litmus for Hofstadterian Democrats: many rank-and-file liberal Democrats still have a firm committment to "neutrality" and "objectivity", and shudder with horror at the very idea of a partisan newspaper. (An ideological, partisan liberal newspaper would be as bad as Fox -- don't you understand that? Democrats read too much Gandhi and Orwell and Hofstadter and Lippman, at the expensive of the fighting progressives and populists.)


This Is Very Helpful (4.00 / 2)
I'm very glad you wrote this John, as it both helps me see what I've failed to communicate and lays out a very good framework for communicating within.  In fact, it's so good that I may use it to help organize a diary for this weekend.  But let me first try to take immediate advantage of the clarity it provides.

(1) Let me start smack dab in the middle with this:

There's a second issue where I'm more sympathetic to Rosenburg, thougb I haven't seen it clearly stated yet. There's always been an enormous North-South division in American politics, and it seems that Lind is asking that the Democrats accomodate itself to Southern social conservativism and militarism. I couldn't support that; to me it would be like losing. (My ancestral populists were Yanke G.A.R types).

This is actually my principle objection to Lind, although I think you've put it more succinctly than I have.  I've approached it in terms of Lind's employment of narratives of Southern apologetics.  But really, it's the underlying implication "the Democrats accomodate itself to Southern social conservativism and militarism" which is the core of the problem.  

(2) Lind comes from this side of the North/South cultural divide, and he instinctively identified with it. The populist impulse in this context is largely co-opted (and racialized, of course), and Lind is in denial about it.  This is why, for example, he keeps insisting that the Dems have lost working-class whites, when the GOP inroads in the white South have historically been top-down, not bottom-up.

(3) At the same time, he views Northern politics as an outsider, often carelessly conflating folks on one side of long-standing disputes with those on the other.  This is what I'm trying to get at in my objections in this piece. Broadly stated, Lind wants to valorize the New Deal and discredit everything post-New Deal.  Of course he can't really do this, what with the racism, gender discrimination and other bigotry that the New Deal order not only tolerated, but in many ways propagated.  So he admits that, but denigrates those responsible for righting these wrongs, and does so in large part by conflating them with the political establishment that they largely struggled against.

(4) It is true that there have been plenty of individuals who've flipped from opposition to establishment, as sTiVo argues above.  But this is not the same as a critique of the opposition--particularly its intent.  This is more reflective of the larger political environment, the historical situation in which late-20th Century politics unfolded.  For the umpteenth time, what Lind is railing against is quite real, but he misanalyzes it.  It does not come from the post-50s progressives (who, btw, adopted the label to distinguish themselves from the Hofstadterian Cold War liberals who brought us Vietnam), it comes from the political environment that developed around them, and partly in response & opposition to them, to which some of them individually adapted by becoming the likes of Joke Line.

(4a)

As I now understand (I only read one of the earlier pieces), the Rosenburg-Lind debate is about whether or not cultural liberals are part of, or even primarily responsible for this elitism. All I can say is, often they are.

Not exactly. Rather, that is how Lind might want to frame it.  But it's actually about whether the post-50s progressive movements are responsible for the anti-populist tenor of today's elite politics.  And when you put it that way--because that's really what Lind is arguing--then I think it becomes absurd on its face.

(5)

This is another litmus for Hofstadterian Democrats: many rank-and-file liberal Democrats still have a firm committment to "neutrality" and "objectivity", and shudder with horror at the very idea of a partisan newspaper. (An ideological, partisan liberal newspaper would be as bad as Fox -- don't you understand that? Democrats read too much Gandhi and Orwell and Hofstadter and Lippman, at the expensive of the fighting progressives and populists.)

Random Lengths News is an "ideological, partisan liberal newspaper".  I've been assistant editor, editor and senior editor there since 2002.  I couldn't agree with you more.

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
Who are we talking about? (0.00 / 0)
I guess I like "populist" more than "progressive". After all, the DLC's flagship is the Progressive Policy Institute.

My recent experience is mostly in Portland, Oregon, which has the reputation of being (like Madison or San Francisco) very progressive. But it's very progressive only on various lifestyle issues -- quality of life, alternative genders, symbolic multiculturalism, the environment. They tend too much toward business neoliberlaism otherwise. Statewide, except for de Fazio, Oregon's Congressmen tend to be disappointing in about this way, though only Wu is in the DLC. (Not sure about Merkely and Schrader).

My reading of the Democratic Party is: Blue Dogs, DLC, neoliberals, populists (your progressives). I think that the neoliberals are the bone of contention here. They're not DLC Blue Dogs, but they're disappointingly weak in many respects.

A lot of what Lind is asking for is a different rhetoric and a populist us-vs.-them definition of the battle lines, and too few Democrats do this.  


[ Parent ]
The DLC Was Very Strategic In Its Thievery (4.00 / 2)
Just like Bush with "No Child Left Behind".

But we need to be very clear about the meanings of words, including where they come from and why.  In the early Cold War period--even before McCarthy emerged to retroactively give the phenomena its name--there was a furious battle by many in the Democratic coalition to expel many who had been crucial to their success as a means to appease rightwing attacks.  It was a losing proposition, of course, since the rightwing target had always been the Democratic Party itself, and purging itself of some on the left would only be encouragement for demands to purge more and more and more.  In the end, the John Birch Society would even escalate so far that it was not just attacking the Democrats en masse, but President Eiesenhower as well.  So buying into that logic was not notoriously successful.  But it was what was done.  And the result was what came to be known as "Cold War liberalism" as the dominant force in non-Southern Democratic politics.

Because this consolidation had so discredited the word "liberal," an entire generation grew up that was not at all warmly disposed to calling itself "liberal". The term "progressive" re-emerged to take its place, but without any specific connection to the pre-New Deal political movement.  This began in the late 50s, early 70s.  The DLC theft didn't occur until sometime around 1990.

Now let's be clear.  The whole argument gets very confused when it centers on elected politicians, rather than on activists, organizations and movements.  All politicians are operating within a system that's become incredibly dominated by money, whereas it used to depend much more on people--and on the Dem side this overwhelmingly meant union workers.  The result of this systemic pressure has been to weaken distinctions at the level of electeds--especially as one goes up the ladder.  That's why the greatest gap is between the electeds and the activist base.

A lot of what Lind is asking for is a different rhetoric and a populist us-vs.-them definition of the battle lines, and too few Democrats do this.

That I agree with completely.  But once you get down into the details of what he's saying, you discover that he's either quite confused or just plain wrong in much of his analysis.  It's not enough to have your heart in the right place.  Your head has to be there, too.


"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
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