Tom Ridge Shows Why The Republican Party Needs To Die: Prelude & Psychotic Fugue

by: Paul Rosenberg

Sun Sep 06, 2009 at 14:30


Prelude

On Tuesday, Tom Ridge appeared on Rachel Maddow's show, and Maddow tried in vein to recruit Ridge for the position of Republican voice of reason on foreign affairs.  The problem was that, at bottom, Ridge is a conservative.  He's got better manners than Dick Cheney (as do pit bulls), but at bottom the belief structure is remarkably similar.  He dutifully stands by the lies used to get us to invade Iraq.  He blames bad intelligence, not the Bush Administration's determination to go to war.  He says that other governments were fooled, too.  And besides, he says, the Iraqi people are going to love their democracy so much some day, that all the people slaughtered along the way will be forgotten, and history will smile on George W. Bush, the Greatest President of All Time!

Okay, I made up that last bit about Bush.  But the rest of it Ridge actually said, and it's all the very same sort of stuff that Cheney believes.  There is no difference between the two aside from Cheney's lack of manners.  After everything else was said and done, Ridge's ultimate defense of the Bush Administration was framed in terms of personal honor--a typical conservative frame:

I think it's a pretty radical conclusion to suggest that men and women entrusted with the safety of this country would predicate a decision upon any other bases other than to keep America safe.  Later on, it may have proven that some of the information was inaccurate, but there were plenty of reasons to go into Iraq at the time; the foremost was weapons of mass destruction.  That obviously proven to be faulty.  But the fact of the matter is, at that time, given what they knew--and they knew more than you and I did--it seemed to be the right thing to do, and the decision was made in what they considered to be the best interests of our country.

Of course, the common sense meaning implied here--that a rational, empirical decision was made just prior to invasion based on more data than critics had--is simply, factually false.  Not just the faultiness of the data, but it's fundamental irrelevance to the decisiomaking process were already known. We know this from the US Today story published on September 11, 2002, six months before the Iraq invasion, which reported that the decision to invade Iraq had been made within weeks of 9/11.  ("Iraq course set from tight White House circle"). It quoted Condi Rice saying that there wasn't even a decision process involved:

The decision to target Saddam "kind of evolved, but it's not clear and neat," a senior administration official says, calling it "policymaking by osmosis."

"There wasn't a flash moment. There's no decision meeting," national security adviser Condoleezza Rice says. "But Iraq had been on the radar screen -- that it was a danger and that it was something you were going to have to deal with eventually ... before Sept. 11, because we knew that this was a problem."

Members of Congress weren't consulted. Nor were key allies. The concerns of senior military officers and intelligence analysts, some of whom remain skeptical, weren't fully aired until afterward.

Paul Rosenberg :: Tom Ridge Shows Why The Republican Party Needs To Die: Prelude & Psychotic Fugue
Again, that was freely available in the public domain for six months before we invaded Iraq.  Anyone who cared to know the truth could know it at the time.  Just prior to Colin Powell's infamous speech to the UN Security Council, the top UN weapons inspector Hans Blix blasted the speech that Powell was about to give ("US Claim Dismissed by Blix"):

The chief UN weapons inspector yesterday dismissed what has been billed as a central claim of the speech the US secretary of state, Colin Powell, will make today to the UN security council.

Hans Blix said there was no evidence of mobile biological weapons laboratories or of Iraq trying to foil inspectors by moving equipment before his teams arrived.

In a series of leaks or previews, the state department has said Mr Powell will allege that Iraq moved mobile biological weapons laboratories ahead of an inspection. Dr Blix said he had already inspected two alleged mobile labs and found nothing: "Two food-testing trucks have been inspected and nothing has been found."

Dr Blix said that the problem of bio-weapons laboratories on trucks had been around for a while and that he had received tips from the US that led him to inspect trucks in Iraq. The Iraqis claimed that the trucks were used to inspect the quality of food production.

He also contested the theory that the Iraqis knew in advance what sites were to be inspected. He added that they expected to be bugged "by several nations" and took great care not to say anything Iraqis could overhear.

Furthermore, a couple of weeks after Powell's speech, it was embarrassingly revealed in Newsweek that a top Iraqi defector--Iraqi weapons chief Gen. Hussein Kamel-- had told his American debriefers in 1995 that Iraq's WMD capabilities had been dismantled after the Gulf War. In the transcript (here, pdf)  on p. 13, Kamel said: "All weapons-- biological, chemical, missile, nuclear, were destroyed."

Coupled with the complete lack of WMDs uncovered by the UN inspection teams headed by Hans Blix, it was openly obvious that Iraq WMDs posed no threat whatsoever to anyone, because they quite simply did not exist. Then, years later, we got additional confirmation from the Downing Street Memos, with their start revelations that "the intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy."

We now have a wealth of other material clearly showing that Ridge's implied meaning is simply and utterly false. However, if you simply take his literal meaning, it's arguably defensible--but utterly damning. Sure the decision may have been based on "keep[ing] America safe"--a decision made by a bunch of pee-in-their-pants chickenhawks with guilty consciences for having allowed the most spectacular terrorist attack in world history to happen on their watch.

Such men were so mentally and morally compromised that actual evidence simply did not play any role in what "keep[ing] America safe" meant to them.  They "trusted their gut", not after looking at all the facts, but instead of looking at them. That men of stupendously bad judgment--so bad, in fact, that it can't really be called judgment at all--might be trying to "keep America safe" does not even begin to be a legitimate defense of their perfidy in deceiving the public.

But for Ridge, that's exactly what it does.  Bush and Cheney were America's leaders.  This alone is enough to exempt them from any sort of critical scrutiny.

Maddow's framework typifies the essence of liberalism and Enlightenment reason: we base our actions on reality, we reason from reality, and when we find out we have been mistaken, we go back and learn why were mistaken, so that we do not make the same mistakes again.

Ridge, on the other hand, typifies the conservative mind.  He does not learn. He cannot learn.  Because he cannot question mistakes made by leaders. He can question mistakes made by underlings, but since the big decisions are not made by underlings, he can never question the big decisions.  And thus he is incapable of learning the big lessons.

No wonder conservatism is utterly doomed to failure, after failure, after failure, after failure. What else could such a belief system possibly produce?

Psychotic Fugue

Let's examine the relevant part of the transcript, in order to see how Ridge exhibits the classical defense of the Bush/Cheney record, refusing to learn or admit anything in retrospect.  I'll break it down into segments, so we can see what's happening in its details.

MADDOW:  .... You were a crucial authoritative part of making what turned out to be a false case to the American people about Iraq being a threat, and us needing to attack them.  

February 2003, you said on ABC, "I agree that as the president has said, the world community has said this is a rogue regime that has chemical biological weapons, trying to develop nuclear weapons, has means of delivery.  That's the reason this individual needs to be disarmed.  The point in fact is that the world community has known for 12 years he's got chemical biological weapons, means of delivery, and that's precisely the reason of the United States and its partners are trying to disarm Saddam Hussein.  He's a threat to his region, he's a threat to our allies.  He's a threat to us."

You made that case on national television a month before we started invading.  Do you regret that?  

RIDGE:  No.  

MADDOW:  Do you think it's true?  

RIDGE:  At the time, I think it's true, and subsequent to that, the president's leadership and the things we have done have kept America safe.

This statement by Ridge came about a week after Powell's UN speech.  As already noted, Powell's speech had been pre-buted in advance by Blix.  It was subsequently torn to shreds by British researcher Glen Rangwala.  Powell even went so far as to claim that a truck parked outside a shed was a "signature" for chemical weapons.  Me?  I think it was a signature that the driver was inside playing pinochle.   In addition to everything I've already said, Bush was in the process of trying--and failing--to get the UN to pass another resolution authorizing an invasion of Iraq. When it was clear that attempt with fail, the US decided to abandon that route, and simply invade without UN authorization.  So much for Ridge's dishonest attempt to portray us as having the world's support for what we were doing.  

As for the intelligence itself, Ridge may not have known at the time what a bunch of hooey that was, but he damn sure should have.  At that point, the UN weapons inspectors had been in Iraq for a couple of months, and found nothing.  If the argument was that the Iraq was skillfully hiding the WMDs, then the answer should have been to keep looking-as Blix pointed out..  So long as inspectors were in Iraq, looking for WMDs, there was simply no way that those WMDs could constitute a threat.   The real fear for the Bush Administration, was that eventually everyone would be convinced that there were no WMDs, and thus there was no justification for invasion.  And that is why we invaded--not to prevent Iraq from using WMDs, but to prevent the UN inspectors from proving that there were no WMDs in the first place.

Maddow's program continued:

MADDOW:  Do you think that Saddam Hussein was a threat to us at the time that we invaded?  

RIDGE:  Based on not only the intelligence we had, but the intelligence we got from--that was shared, I believe, it's been known by the Brits and by the French, they had used weapons of mass destruction, that he was, again, several intelligence agencies thought he still had them.  And I believed--I believed that if he had a weapon of mass destruction, a radiological, a crude radiological device, a nuclear device or something, for him to, if he had them, did I believe that he would give them to al Qaeda if he had them?  The answer was yes.

Everyone knows that Saddam had usedWMDs in the past.  He did so when were allies, and were not about to call attention to it.  Other intelligence agencies did have some evidence that he still had them-but of course, we failed to tell them that we had Gen. Kamel telling us otherwise.  So, in short, we had helped deceive other intelligence agencies, and that's supposed to support our position?  Plus, other agencies were strongly doubting that assessment by the time Ridge made those claims in February 2003.  After more than two months of fruitless weapons searching, folks were starting to smell a rat.

Finally, Ridge's belief that Saddam would have handed over a radiological weapon--which  he did not have--to his ideological arch-nemesis is simply proof that Ridge is just as clueless about Mideast politics as anyone else in the Bush Administration is.  One might as well believe that Karl Rove was eager to help Barack Obama defeat John McCain.

Next, we find Ridge grasping at three straws.  First was the already-mentioned claim that other intelligence agencies still believed the false intelligence about WMDs that our agencies had helped keep alive.  Second, he raised the even more absurd notion that the WMDs might still exist, but we just hadn't found them yet--a claim that he's not even willing to try to defend, he just raised it to add to the confusion, nothing more. How intellectually dishonest can you get?  Third... well, I'll talk about that afterwards.

Roll tape:

 And so the president...

MADDOW:  That's what you...

RIDGE:  ... was going into Iraq--I said it and I believed it at the time.  

MADDOW:  You believed it at the time.  

RIDGE:  Yes.  

MADDOW:  You don't still believe it, do you?  

RIDGE:  Well, it's pretty clear that the intelligence communities of several countries who had assessed his--who claimed that he had weapons of mass destruction, we haven't found them.  So again...

MADDOW:  Do you think they might still be there and we just haven't found them?  

RIDGE:  I doubt it.  I think we covered that country.  But there were other reasons to go in.  That was the one that was--that everybody focused on, and everyone who has been critical of the president for going into Iraq said we never found them.  But I think the president made the decisions based on the facts and the intelligence as he knew it at the time, and I think it was the right decision at the time.  

Third was Ridge saying, in effect, "So what if we lied about WMDs?  We kicked butt, and the American people always go for that sort of thing."  Maybe so.  But that's still illegal. It's fraud to take the country to war under false pretenses.

Finally, Maddow challenged Ridge on the credibility of his claim that the poor widdle President had been tricked by the evil, evil (but very patriotic) spies.  This is where we see him incapable of considering that his Dear Leader could ever do anything fundamtnally wrong:

MADDOW:  You don't think that the administration, Vice President Cheney, your longtime friend, President Bush, the--the intelligence system set up under Donald Rumsfeld's Pentagon, you don't think they had any role in skewing the intelligence to a foregone conclusion?  You think it was an intelligence community--intelligence community error and not a politicized decision?  Really?  

RIDGE:  Yes.  Yes.  I know some of these men better than I know others, but I don't think any one of these men would have contrived in their own mind a scenario without in their own mind and heart substantive belief based on information they received that the threat was real.  

There's no way that anybody in that group--I just--they would commit our blood and our treasure to a cause if they didn't think it was necessary to commit our blood and treasure to a cause to keep America safe.  The intelligence may have proven to be false, but there was no doubt in my mind that they were motivated to keep America safe.  

In retrospect, we can say that the intelligence was faulty.  Actually, we discovered a couple of times that when we raised the threat level, a couple of years later, there was one instance where it turned out to be faulty, but sometimes you don't have the luxury of waiting.  In this instance, if you thought they had weapons of mass destruction, the United Nations had sanctioned them so many times and nothing ever happened, and somebody had to make a move.  And I find it rather difficult to think that anybody in this country would believe that people in charge of their government, Republicans or Democrats, liberals or conservatives, would commit our blood and our treasure to a cause if they didn't truly believe in their heart and their mind that it wasn't to protect America.  I just reject that notion.

Well, at least he can't picture Democrats doing what Buch and Cheney very clearly did do.But I'm not really sure that's a good thing.  In fact, I'm pretty certain it's not.

And here's Rachel asking Ridge, WTF?

MADDOW:  I think that is an eloquent argument, and I have to tell you, I think you making...

(CROSSTALK)

MADDOW:  I think you making that argument right now is why Republicans after the Bush and Cheney administration are not going to get back the country's trust on national security.  To look back at that decision and say, we got it wrong but it was in good faith and not acknowledge the foregone conclusion that we are going to invade Iraq that pervaded every decision that was made about intelligence--looking back at that decision-making process, it sounds like you're making the argument you would have made the same decision again.  Americans need to believe that our government would not make that wrong a decision, that would not make such a foregone conclusion--take such a foregone conclusion to such an important issue, that the intelligence that proved the opposite point was all discounted, that the intelligence was combed through for any bit that would support the foregone conclusion of the policy makers.  

The system was broken.  And if you don't see that the system was broken and you think it was just that the intel was wrong, I think that you're one of the most trusted voices on national security for the Republican Party, and I think that's the elephant in the room.  I don't think you guys get back your credibility on national security until you realize that was a wrong decision made by policy makers.  It wasn't the spies' fault.  

I don't know that Ridge was actually making a very eloquent argument. "Compared To What?" I guess. But Rachel's response was pretty damn good.  Still, I think the argument goes deeper than that.  GOP credibility does not just depend on the stand-alone act of being able to admit that mistakes were made at the top.  GOP credibility depends on being able to escape from the entire framework of conservative argumentation that Ridge has just regurgitated, and from the set of norms associated with it--a set of norms that requires authoritarian deference to its leaders, so that no fundamental re-learning is possible, and that requires the repeated affirmation of arguments past, no matter how many times they have been discredited and disproven.

This, then, is where Ridge makes his most basic argument, as quoted above, really just repeating what's just said above, but in more compact form:

RIDGE:  Well, I think you're suggesting that it was only--that it was driven by, quite obviously, the people who made the decision knew more about the threat than you and I do.  And, again, I think it's a pretty radical conclusion to suggest that men and women entrusted with the safety of this country would predicate a decision upon any other bases other than to keep America safe.  Later on, it may have proven that some of the information was inaccurate, but there were plenty of reasons to go into Iraq at the time; the foremost was weapons of mass destruction.  That obviously proven to be faulty.  But the fact of the matter is, at that time, given what they knew--and they knew more than you and I did--it seemed to be the right thing to do, and the decision was made in what they considered to be the best interests of our country.  

We have been litigating it now for about five or six years.  I guess we're going to continue to litigate it, and historians--and the final history hasn't been written, because if Iraq--if some form of self-governance, some form of democracy ultimately is achieved in Iraq--and it's not going to look exactly like ours, but the Muslim world does admire freedom of speech; the Muslim world does admire democracy, as difficult as it is over there--the notion that we went in improperly will be obviously reversed, and the history has yet to be written.  

So, once again, Ridge is arguing, "So what if we killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqis?  They're thank us someday, and George W. Bush will be a hero after all, so Booyah!"  

MADDOW:  Reversed?  

RIDGE:  Democracy in Iraq--well, democracy in Iraq will make a huge difference not just for the men and women and the people and the families in Iraq, but for the entire region for a lot of reasons.  

MADDOW:  If you can go back in time and sell the American people on the idea that 4,000 Americans ought to lose their lives and we ought to lose those trillions of dollars for democracy in Iraq, you have a wilder imagination than I do.  

We were sold that war because of 9/11.  We were sold that war because of the threat of weapons of mass destruction from this guy who didn't have them, and our government should have known it.  And, frankly, a lot of people believe that our government did know it, and that it was a cynical decision.  And maybe everybody wasn't in on it, maybe that is a radical thing to conclude, but I think that...

RIDGE:  I don't share that point of view.  You do.  

MADDOW:  I know.

Maddow may have gotten a bit carried away and inadvertently given Ridge a bit of rhetorical cover there. But the cover is only rhetorical, since the evidence is overwhelming that there was no credible evidence of an Iraqi threat when we invaded.  The swiftness with which Cheney orchestrated the outing of Valerie Plame in response to Joe Wilson's Op-ed is itself more than adequate proof of how fragile their phony case for war actually was--and how well they knew how fragile it was.

In short, Ridge is basically no different than Dick Cheney at this point.  He's just done a better job of not making an obvious fool and asshole out of himself.  But when you set aside his decorous manners, and look at the content of what he's arguing, he's not just no better than Cheney-he's actually worse.  Worse because he's got people like Maddow treating him with kid gloves, and letting him spout off more lies than she can possibly respond to in a single sitting.


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It takes a moment to tell the truth and a lifetime to tell a lie (4.00 / 1)
I think that's what all this really boils down to. Ridge is a party to numerous crimes committed against this country and several others. He has to lie to avoid prosecution. His walkback on the terror "warnings" says it all. He realized he was offering up way too much for his own good.

So it's hard to know what he really thinks or not, since it's in his interest to save himself from some pretty harsh legal realities by not believing anything related to the truth.

That said, this is still a good example of right-wing cognitive dissonance. Any number of people, who don't enjoy Ridge's special status as Felon In Waiting Of  Prosecution, would say exactly the same things. They stick to the lies because they have to, for one reason or another. The press allows them this luxury because many of them are also directly involved in the commission of numerous crimes against the republic. Indeed, it's actually rather impressive, in a sick sort of way, just how so many people can all lie on cue this way. With the same exact words and everything.

I guess my question is: how long can our society continue this way before it implodes under the sheer mass of all this bullshit?  

When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it.

-- Frederic Bastiat, "The Law", 1850


They Can't Own Up (0.00 / 0)
See my diary on maturity.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
OK, fair point (0.00 / 0)
But like others here, this is a phenomenon which infects leadership of the Democratic party as well. I'm not equating them, by the way, as these affectations arise from slightly different places.

Put simply, neo-liberal "governance" requires a high degree of "not owning up," for several reasons, but the main one is this: it is not intended to serve the national or public interest and as such is doomed to being hated for the results it brings to the governed--economic collapse chief among them. When the WH forces a bunch of wrong-headed policies down our throats, they lie about their motivations. NAFTA, Gramm-Leach-Bliley, Telecom Act of '96 and most lately, FISA deform, etc. They all knew they were damaging policies. That was their intent.

So while I have to agree there really is a genuine function of immaturity at work with most politicians (as with most people it sometimes seems), especially the infantile righties because they're literally scared to death of every shadow in the night, there is also a systemic devotion to duplicity at work as well.

The Democratic version of this is using the GOP as fig leaf for every dirty deed that comes into their little brains. Does anyone really buy WH spinelessness in the face of Republican smear tactics against Van Jones? Personally, and maybe I'm wrong about this, but it rather seems to me the corporate hacks in the WH probably can't stand being in the same room with someone of his calibre. If you can't win the argument, smear him. Then lie about it, sayin' those dirty Thugs is what caused it all.

To my mind, lying is so institutionalized as a normal way of  governing to separate people from their government. It's inherently corrupt behavior in any democracy, even if the masses are somewhat expectant of it these days.



When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it.

-- Frederic Bastiat, "The Law", 1850


[ Parent ]
I'm Skeptical (0.00 / 0)
I'm starting on a more detailed study of this, but I think that a fair number of people taken in by neoliberalism are simply ideologically indoctrinated to the point that they can't see the damage that neoliberal policies do.  Or rather, when they do see it, they see it as inevitable, part of the "way the world works."

This goes back to the whole bit about "deep capture" in my earlier diary, "A Different America -- The Situation of Economic Polarization".

That in turn reflects on something I wrote about several weeks ago, how the logic of lines can be reduced to points, but the logic of points can't be expanded to lines.  So long as you try to understand the world in individualist terms, you will fail.  But you won't even be able to see why or how.  The ways in which you fail are invisible to you, and it's precisely that invisibility that is the basis of their failures.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I don't think this is exclusively a conservative mindset (4.00 / 2)
I think it's one that pervades the entire political, ideological, social, cultural, etc., spectrum, but which is especially pronounced among conservatives, to a truly pathological degree. But I see it on the left, and center, all the time, which is why I can't pin this completely on conservatives, although of course it's worse with them.

I see it, for example, whenever I hear an unreconstructed diehard Obama supporter willfully ignore, deny, minimize or distort Obama's failures, do the opposite with his successes, and viciously attack anyone who dares challenge this view, with little more than ad hom and straw men. I don't see this as substantially difference from what conservatives like Ridge do above. It might ultimately be in support of a leader, and policies, less heinous than the ones Ridge defends, but the basic pathology here is identical, as I see it.

Here's a perfect example of this, where the diarist, while not entirely fawning and doing the obligatory "Don't get me wrong, I've got problems with Obama too", greatly exaggerates Obama's successes and minimizes his failures, and calls on people to stop tearing him down and comparing him to Bush or else the GOP wins (he really piles on the talking points and straw men in the comments):

Has Obama Accomplished Anything

I also see it among corporatist centrists that I know, who while admitting, in general terms, that our economy and country are messed up and in need of reform, then go on to defend the specific aspects of these that are so messed up and in need of reform.

I had an extremely frustrating argument with an insurance exec recently--a Democrat, no less--who threw out one boilerplate straw man and talking point after another (Medicare D is a good deal for taypayers and seniors, HSAs are a good idea, Medicare Advantage is a good program). When I presented well-known arguments against each of them, he simply denied them, said that he'd been in the biz for years and knew what he was talking about, etc. Most critically, he didn't offer counter-arguments, he simply repeated his talking points and said that my arguments were invalid, without explaining why. Eventually he got angry and said he was through arguing with me.

I don't see this as substantively different from what Ridge did, either. I think that there are lots of people, across the spectrum, who engage in such "thinking". Sometimes it's knowing and self-serving--i.e. they're lying, and know it, and are doing it for self-interested reasons. But often, it's deeper than that, from what I can tell, and there's some sort of psychological and cognitive process at work where the person either literally believes in their nonsense, or else is unable or unwilling to admit that it's nonsense, because it would be too painful or embarrassing for them. Perhaps, in conservatives, it's more of the former, i.e. they literally cannot tell that they're full of it, whereas in centrists and lefties, it's more of a self-serving and/or psychological thing. But operationally, it's the same.

It's not merely a conservative problem. It's a societal problem, that's more pathological on the right. But its being so pervasive across the spectrum is what made it possible for its more pathological conservative version to take hold, and hold sway. The country was conned by conservatives because the country was already conning itself. Whether consciously or not, conservatives knew and exploited this to its fullest. When it comes to deception, they can be surprisingly lucid. In fact, it's really the only area in which they are.

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton


Well, Sure (0.00 / 0)
Everyone is biased for the home team. We all know that.

But if you look at reality for a moment, you'll notice that the default stance of the Democratic Party is trounce and denounce their own.  Which is sort of 100% the opposite of what Ridge is doing.

So, yeah, as someone who's taken a ton of lumps for not being an Obama cheerleader, I too find that sort of diary somewhat nauseating.  But it's just not in the same league with what Ridge is doing.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Of course it's not identical (0.00 / 0)
But it is similar, part of the continuum of bullshittery that modern America is built upon, from right to left. While they might differ in the sense that one blindly and dishonestly defends a psychotic and murderous regime, while the other blindly and dishonestly defends a hugely disappointing and disengenuous regime, the blindness and dishonesty are more alike than different. They are both variations on the same reality-denying theme, albeit to very different effect (although in the long run Obama's mistakes and failures could end up being as destructive as Bush's, if unreversed).

We are a nation that believes in myths, fantasies and illusions, and is incapable of a sober and honest evaluation of and interaction with reality, perhaps more so than any other in the developed world. And, again, it's across the ideological and political and every other spectrum. The right believes in the myth of power and force. The center believes in the myth of money and technocracy. The left believes in the myth of glorious saviors and brilliant ideas. Not everyone, but a huge percentage of each of these segments.

Thus the Cults of St. Ronnie, St. Sarah and St. Paul, the Cult of The Market and St. Larry, and the Cult of Obama (Dean, Nader, Edwards, Kucinich, etc.). And the cult of simply tuning out and living small self-contained lives, built on consumerism and pop culture, blithely unaware and uninterested in the forces conspiring to destoy even this.

I realize that I'm extrapolating from your more specific argument, but I contend that the likes of Ridge, Cheney and Bush cannot attain a meaningful foothold in a country that does not already and deeply indulge in such across the board delusional and immature thinking and living. And a country that continues to do so is incapable of truly fixing its many problems or even preventing another far-right takeover. America is all about denial.

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton


[ Parent ]
I Think It's Important To Make Distinctions (0.00 / 0)
All the more so, if you read through my next diary, now posted.

There are significant difference between the lies of a child-molester and the lies of those who can't quite bring themselves to believe they have a child molester in their midst.  One has to know the differences between these lies in order to have any chance of penetrating them.

Of course one needs a passion for truth that sees all these lies as its enemy, I'm not denying that for a minute.  But different lies have different reasons, and we need to understand that as well as we possibly can.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
We're talking past each other (0.00 / 0)
I don't dispute that Obama <> Bush, and Obama diehards <> Bush diehards. But the willful denial of reality, even if at very different levels of egregiousness, and with very different outcomes, exist in both, and are in part manifestations of the same basic cognitive pathology, namely the inability and/or unwillingness to honestly look at, accept and deal with reality as it actually is, not as one wishes it to be.

Of course Ridge saying that the Iraq war was righteous is not the same thing as (i.e. much worse than) an Obamabot saying that the stim bill was awesome. But they're both either outright lies or some form of self-delusion. And they're both tied to the more fundamental American tendency to believe in, and want and need to believe in, easy and convenient myths, as substitute for harsher reality.

Just as the right keeps promoting sociopathic killers and incompetent morons, the left keeps persuing messianic saviors and impossibly perfect leaders, and when it thinks that it's found them, it uncritically supports them, attacking anyone who dares criticize them and spouting nonsense about how such criticism is hateful and can only destroy these leaders. And the right has been able to get into power because the left keeps doing this (it's not the only reason, of course). And the center just tunes out and every 4 years votes for whoever seems more pleasant and confident. This is the story of the past 40+ years.

The right may never grow up (or become honest or sane), but the left must grow up, if it's to stay in power and actually accomplish good things. I.e. it has to accept the imperfectability of leaders (but not necessarily accept all of their imperfections), stop searching for and believing in messiahs, learn how to respectfully but forcefully criticize (or accept such criticism from others), debate issues on their merits, not personalities and degrees of loyalty, and stop fearing that if we don't all march in lockstep, we're doomed. That's how the other side thinks. We're better than that. We have to be.

Now I need to go read a diary someone just told me about...

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton


[ Parent ]
I Just Want You To (0.00 / 0)
Step back from saying things are the same, when actually they're just similar.

Otherwise, I might accuse you of lying to yourself about them.


"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Funny (0.00 / 0)
I never said they were the same, just similar. Or are you being sarcastic and invoking the bots?

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton

[ Parent ]
No, I Can Read (0.00 / 0)
I'm working on trying to convince you about relative importance.  

Normally I wouldn't bother about such a fine distinction. They can be hard to grasp, particularly via internet discussions. But since you're someone with a grasp of fine distinctions, I just thought I should keep at it a bit.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I get that there's a difference (0.00 / 0)
On one level. But I believe that there are some glaring similarities on another level. If not on a fundamental level, then at least on an operative level. Each delusional type of mindset ends up leading to bad outcomes, even if they're different in some of their aspects and their degree of egregiousness.

I guess that what I'm saying is that while we're on this topic, let's not forget that a similar, if not the same, thing is going on elsewhere, including the left, and it too has to be identified and dealt with.

E.g.

Conservative: Let's start a war to keep oil prices down.

Centrist: I don't know about that, but I do want oil prices low.

Lefty: No to both, and Nader/Dean/Obama will make it happen!

Whether due to derangement, detachment or delusion, and however differently this phenomenon is manifested and perhaps even caused, the entire spectrum does it, one way or another. Clearly, an exploration into the why's and what's is necessary, and likely to show huge and important differences between them. But they all do it, and it only makes things worse, one way or another.

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton


[ Parent ]
"biased for the home team" is much too weak for a description. (0.00 / 0)
What Cheney and Ridge advocate goes way beyond this. The "1% doctrine" actually results in foreign lifes having no inherent value at all. Pls see my comment downthread where I rant about this.

[ Parent ]
I just wish someone would ask the question (4.00 / 2)
"The rest of the world believed in the WMD claim in October and November, they certainly weren't very sure about that by February and March, Why were you?"

Even in the the best case scenario (4.00 / 1)
an admission that there were no WMD's and therefore the war was a mistake would be weak sauce.  The case for war was nonsense and immoral even if Iraq did have biological, chemical or nuclear weapons.  The lesson to be learned should be something more than 'be more careful in interpreting intelligence' or 'don't go to war on fabricated intelligence.'

And Rachel's claim that Ridge's performance shows why Republicans won't regain the public trust over foreign affairs doesn't pass the laugh test.  Paul's right that Ridge isn't that different than Cheney, but I'm not sure either is that different, in some important respects, than much of the Democratic foreign policy establishment.  It was a bipartisan march to war, it is a bipartisan effort to ensure the end of the war does little damage to overall US policy in Iraq and the region.  It is a bipartisan effort to keep the Afghanistan war going, and to prevent any rethinking of military or foreign policy. The US is increasing its military presence in Latin American and Africa right now.  

And the Democrats continuing bungling of domestic policy (i.e. the stimulus, health care) makes clear that the White House will create opportunities for Republican gains where there appear to be none.

Regardless, this sort of craziness will persist as long as there is little or no push back from the media or the Democratic Party - meaning, barring some significant change from the status quo, in perpetuity.


Support a Pennsylvania Progressive for Governor - Joe Hoeffel


Let Me Just Refer You To The Two Bolded Paragraphs (4.00 / 2)
The Democrats are surely dedicated to covering the GOPs hindquarters, just as they have been throughout most of the past 40 years or more.  And that will surely be of enormous help to the GOP, which by all rights out to dissolve itself like a slime mold, giving up all pretense to being more than an agglomeration of single-celled organisms.

However, as those two bolded paragraphs indicate, what is true underneath the decrepit charade of party politics is that there actually is a sharp divide, not between Democrat and Republican, but between Enlightenment liberalism  and Medieval conservatism.  And if we can but clarify that divide so that none can mistake it, we will have taken a great stride forward toward finding our way again.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
But clearly, not all liberals are equally enlightened (0.00 / 0)
And some end up helping the medieval conservatives, one way or another, be it by refusing to go all the way in their liberalism and caving to the other side in the name of "bipartisanship" (read: cowardice, foolishness or corruption), or by adopting a knee-jerk, unthinking liberalism that substitutes idol worship and mantra-repeating for genuinely critical thought and action--which is the heart of enlightened liberalism--and thus being unable to put up a serious and forceful alternative to medieval conservatives.

Too many capitulators, sellouts and fantasists on our side. Nothing liberal about that.

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton


[ Parent ]
It was not a bipartisan march to war (0.00 / 0)
It was a bipartisan march to ensure that Saddam was disarmed and that is a crucial if narrow difference.

There is no question that the people who voted for the AUMF full expected that the result would be war. What no one expected was that the AUMF would actually succeed in its stated purpose which was to force Saddam to prove that he had disarmed. But mirabile dictu Saddam admitted the UN, allowed them to do their work which to the stupefaction of just about everyone showed that he had secretly destroyed almost every vestige of his known programs (known because the US sold most of it to him to start with).

We know now that internal to the Administration the decision to go to war did not hinge on the presence or absence of WMD. The question is whether the Senators who voted for AUMF realized that as well. If they did they were fully complicit, if they didn't then the moral case gets more murky, Since no one really expected AUMF to work in the way it did are they still equally guilty? Or does the fact that by February 2003 we had solid evidence that the result of AUMF was in fact a peacefully proven to be disarmed Saddam exonerate those who voted 'Yea'.

There is no clear answer to that, a lot depends on whether you believe removing a real if distant existential threat to Israel was worth a ground war. I would have voted 'No' based on what I saw was the minimal nature of that threat, but then I wasn't in the same hot seat that HIlary and the others were.

But I maintain there is still a clear qualitative moral difference between the AIPAC-friendly Democratic march to potential war and the PNAC march to certain war as the first step to establishing a New American Century, or in plainest terms American Empire. There is a difference between being wrong-headed and being evil.


[ Parent ]
Also (4.00 / 1)
Ridge employed a CLASSIC non-denial denial when Rachel claimed that they went to war despite knowing that the reasons used to justify it were bogus. He expressed outrage that such a thing could be claimed, and engaged in various other hedges and end runs, but did not out and out deny it. Whenever someone does this, they're lying. And they may be doing it with themselves as well. Such dishonesty and denial are not "conservative" in themselves, but they are inherent to modern conservatism, which one simply cannot be if one is truthful, smart, principled and reality-based.

How DARE you accuse me of raising my voice and being angry with you!


"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton

"to keep America safe" trumps EVERYTHING? That's the 1% doctrine... (0.00 / 0)
...that Cheney de facto used as guidance for US politics. If there's only a 1% chance that the US may be hurt, all means are allowed to fight that alleged "danger", humanitarian and other concerns be damned. Now, I don't want to be unrealistic, it's simply political and human reality that the lifes of your own people have a higher value for you than those of foreigners. We see evidence for this everywhere, most disturbing when it comes to usinf weapons of crwod distruction, bombs and rockets, to fight single terrorists. the unavoidable collateral damage would be unacceptable if the lifes of foreign civilians would be seen as having the same value of those of the own citizen. No police unit would ever use a bomb to target a serial killer, but it'sw ok for the military. That's obvious hypocrisy, but it's zthe reality.

But the 1% doctrine goes way beyond that. It takes away the need for sufficient evidence before killing people, it allows to act on such a hint that there may be danger, even on imagined threats. It's based on the presumption that all non-US lifes are at the mercy of the US government. That's dangerous national chauvinism that not only borders fascism, but is already deep in Nazi territory. And Cheney is only its most visible advocat, as this example shows. There's an influential and powerful group at the base of this iceberg, and it's a significant part of the GOP nowadays. These people have to be fought by all legal means. Or else they will lead the US one day into World War III.


Paul Rosenberg (0.00 / 0)
Paul, all I have to say is I could not agree with your sentiments more and give you a big BOOYAH! for them.

The two decision points that determined war. (0.00 / 0)
One was the point that Cheney the head of the VP search team picked himself to be VP. That decision determined that the foreign policy of a future Bush Administration would reflect the Statement of Principles of the Project for a New American Century and the PNAC's Letter to President Clinton on Iraq. Between the signatories to these two documents you have the entirely of the Cheney/Rumsfeld military/foreign policy team. (Nobody important is missing).

The second decision point was Bush v. Gore which ensured that this PNAC team would duly be installed at the control points for war.

That the decision making process seemed opaque to Condi and Ridge is because neither of them, nor Powell was at the table when the decision was made at latest by 1997.

None of this was particularly hidden. The Project for a New American Century was not a haphazard affair, it was as its name says a project consciously embarked on by a group of determined individuals who sought to make the policy case for war from at first outside government and then after Jan 2001 from inside. You can follow the process step by step and year by year simply by following along in their archives.

http://www.newamericancentury....

The only open question is whether Ridge and Condi just got rolled here or if they knew the fix was in from the beginning.
______________________
As an example of material in the archives you have this piece, originally a 1998 Op/Ed by Kristol and Kagan in the NYT called 'Bombing Iraq is not Enough'. http://www.newamericancentury.... It's conclusion?

The only way to remove the threat of those weapons is to remove him, and that means using air power and ground forces, and finishing the task left undone in 1991.

We can do this job. Mr. Hussein's army is much weaker than before the Persian Gulf war. He has no political support beyond his own bodyguards and generals. An effective military campaign combined with a political strategy to support the broad opposition forces in Iraq could well bring his regime down faster than many imagine. And Iraq's Arab neighbors are more likely to support a military effort to remove him than an ineffectual bombing raid that leaves a dangerous man in power.

Does the United States really have to bear this burden? Yes. Unless we act, Saddam Hussein will prevail, the Middle East will be destabilized, other aggressors around the world will follow his example, and American soldiers will have to pay a far heavier price when the international peace sustained by American leadership begins to collapse.

If Mr. Clinton is serious about protecting us and our allies from Iraqi biological and chemical weapons, he will order ground forces to the gulf. Four heavy divisions and two airborne divisions are available for deployment. The President should act, and Congress should support him in the only policy that can succeed

Not a lot of ambiguity there.

Agreed In Terms Of Intent (0.00 / 0)
There can be no doubt about the intent.  But on Sept 10, 2001, BushCo was in no position, politically, to carry out their intended plan.  Then, as they say, "9/11 changed everything."  It gave PNAC the "Pearl Harbor" they openly hoped for in "Rebuilding America's Defenses," and that was all they needed.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
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