In a way, you trust (4.00 / 1)

Republicans and the conservative Democrats the most.  Unlike the administration and many moderates and progressives, there's nothing covert about their approach to politics and policy, and in a way, that makes them the most trustworthy actors in this realm. We all know exactly what they're going to do and what they're going to say. It's only when progressives and (or?) the administration use this to their advantage (no shit Charles Grassley and Mike Enzi are not good faith negotiators, this was evident months ago, yet they are still players in the process when they should never have been) that we can have a realistic plan to move progressive legislation forward.

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by: expatriatedjerseyan @ Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 12:14:47 PM CDT

Hehe, interesting paradoxon! (4.00 / 1)

Yup, the expat is right: Progressives can trust rethuglicans and BlueDogs to do everything to direct more money to big business and to the upper 5%. At least something you can rely on!
:D

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by: Gray @ Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 12:27:15 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

It won't change (4.00 / 2)

Ever.

Even if we win the battle over the Public Option and insurance reform it won't prove anything other than our tactics worked one time.

Even the people who are trying to directly appeal to you are also trying to appeal to people who you disagree with.  That will always be true.

But just because you don't trust these people doesn't mean you have to actively distrust them either.  Don't assume they are out to get you or only server their corporate masters.  Reality is messier than that.

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by: Mark Matson @ Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 12:18:45 PM CDT

But if the tactics work over time (0.00 / 0)

That actually cahnges the trust calculus a lot.  As of now, there isn't much evidence that progressive tactics work on any piece of legislation that matters to entrenched interests.

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by: Valatan @ Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 12:31:09 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Trust is meaningless (4.00 / 3)

Personally, I just think politicians, like all people, respond to all the pressure points around them.  Trust is literally meaningless.

Come to think of it, this is why Obama doesn't bother me as much as he bothers many others here.  People are focussed on trust.  That makes every negative thing hurt on a personal level and every positive thing seem really important.

But that is dangerous thinking in both directions.  I suggest people think of all politicians the way they think of Arlen Specter.  Specter is more malleable than most, but the dynamic is the same.

Don't trust or distrust.  Trust is a fool's errand.  In politics, you have to think in terms of power.

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by: Mark Matson @ Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 13:06:44 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I disagree. (4.00 / 1)

Trust is a force multiplier. Trust means people are willing to lend you their resources and it is an invaluable asset to have in politics.

It would be good if we had leaders we could trust, though I recognize we do not at this time. Well, not necessarily.

If the progressive block holds, it will be a huge downpayment on building trust between the insiders and outsiders of the movement. It will make it possible to do even more.

Montani semper liberi

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by: Sadie Baker @ Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 19:45:11 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Strong points, Chris! I guess many here share your concerns. (0.00 / 0)

Your approach, that trust has to be earned, and that it takes more than "invariably vague" announcements, but decisive action against the "status-quo institutions", totally makes sense. But of course, this understandable lack of trust in the players should lead nobodyx to believe that the fight is useless. To say it with a quote from a movie I love:

"You know, so much of the time we're just lost. We say, "Please, God, tell us what is right; tell us what is true." And there is no justice: the rich win, the poor are powerless. We become tired of hearing people lie. And after a time, we become dead... a little dead. We think of ourselves as victims... and we become victims. We become... we become weak. We doubt ourselves, we doubt our beliefs. We doubt our institutions. And we doubt the law. But today you are the law. You ARE the law."

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by: Gray @ Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 12:24:19 PM CDT

"Trust in god, and tie up your horse" (4.00 / 2)

Trust is built, and earned. We can trust at some point true enough. And trust is not being earned true enough. It will be a long time coming for anyone.

What we need is people to be engaged enough, vote enough, remember often enough, organize enough that trust becomes  mutual. We will trust each other.

Right now we are trusted to not pay attention, to not care, to be cynical and trusted to not do what is necessary to this.

We need to build enough of an engaged citizenry that trust is a two way street.

The French electorate walks off the job. In the millions of workers, if there is talk of altering laws they don't want altered. A few words about a legislative session that will alter the job security of just teenagers, just first time workers, and the country closes down. A two way street. An engaged electorate, an engaged workforce.

In Europe, in France and Germany, they have two month summer holidays. Two months.

In north america we have added, ADDED, 200 hours of extra work to our work year, 5 weeks, since the 80's. The average worker has 8 days summer holiday.

In the richest land on earth, in the largest economy, we keep doing what we are expected to do. It does not need to be said unfortunately, that we did not get any increase in pay for this extra work.

This was before the recession.

Our biggest job is organizing.

All because we are not engaged. Organized.

Change
"We must break up the banks and never again let them get so big that they distort our politics and take down the economy.

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by: HousesofProgress @ Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 12:27:11 PM CDT

Don't get a wrong picture of the "two month" holidays... (0.00 / 0)

this includes all official holidays like christmas, easter, labor day etc., plus the 3 to 4 weeks of paid leave (depending on job contract and seniority) every employee can allocate in coordination with his company. On the other hand, it's true, many workers really use all their holidays every single year (the days don't add up, you have to use them until March 31st next year or they expire). That's different here in Germany than in Japan, where most workers utilize only a part of their holidays.  

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by: Gray @ Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 12:53:08 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Oops. misleading, sry... (0.00 / 0)

That's 3 to 4 weeks of WORKDAYS, about 20 to 28 days, so it's actually 4 to 5 1/2 weeks away from work.

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by: Gray @ Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 12:55:16 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Viva la doubt! (0.00 / 0)

Solid explanations.  A useful mapping of your [lack of] trust across several important current actors.  

It begs the question(s):

Who or what do you trust?  Where has your trust paid off?  Based on your experience, what are the best indicators that political entities, institutions or individuals are worthy of your trust (to produce a more egalitarian society than the status quo)?

The everyday people of the whole earth are ready to run the sphere in peace.

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by: richjensen @ Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 12:34:34 PM CDT

Chris channels (the late) Andy Rooney (0.00 / 0)

Funny.

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by: NealB2 @ Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 13:03:41 PM CDT

"I don't have no trust"? (0.00 / 0)

Oops, no, that's probably the wrong quote, this sounds more like Rodney Dangerfield...
:D

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by: Gray @ Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 13:45:52 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Andy Rooney is still alive (0.00 / 0)

90 and still kicking, last time I checked.

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton

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by: kovie @ Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 15:21:54 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

RE:Don't get a wrong picture of the "two month" holidays. (4.00 / 3)

This is in response to Grays comment. Moved to accomodate the picture size, and page format.

Here is a picture of MINIMUM days off, by law, in the OECD. Again the rate of unionization is much much higher, people with both a union and seniority get a lot more than this. Remember this is minimum, and look at the United States, at the far end.

PDF of Harvard Law study called "No Holiday"

Conclusion
Almost all of the world's advanced economies guarantee substantial paid-leave time, with a twenty-day-per-year minimum in 18 of the 21 countries studied here. Canada and Japan, however, provide only ten days per year, and the United States is in a class of its own with respect to statutory guarantees of paid time off: it is the no-vacation nation. Requirements for paid public holidays vary more across the rich countries analyzed here. Most of the advanced economies mandate between five and 13 paid public holidays per year, but six countries have no legally required paid public holidays (Japan, the Netherlands, Sweden, Switzerland, the United Kingdom, and, again, the United States).
While incorporating paid annual leave and paid public holidays granted by employers reduces the gap between the United States and other countries somewhat, the lack of statutory provision results in substantial inequality of leave and paid public holiday provision in the United States that compounds existing disadvantage for typically less-advantaged groups including part-timers, low-wage workers, and employees in small enterprises.
The availability of paid annual leave and paid public holidays has important implications for any attempts to assess economic and social well-being, particularly when using comparative indicators such as Gross Domestic Product per person and productivity per employee, which tend to obscure large differences in work and leisure across countries.

Change
"We must break up the banks and never again let them get so big that they distort our politics and take down the economy.

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by: HousesofProgress @ Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 14:40:05 PM CDT

Thanks for mentioning that (4.00 / 3)

NOW on PBS covered this very issue in 2007. David Brancacccio interviewing author Beth Shulman, from the show transcript [emphasis added]:

BRANCACCIO: ...What do we know about the state of time off in America?

SHULMAN: The state of time off is deplorable. It's not just vacation. Half of Americans don't get one paid sick day. We don't have paid family leave, so that if you have a newborn child, or a very sick-relative, you can't take the time, 'cause most Americans can't take it, 'cause they can't afford to-to lose a paycheck. And if their children get sick, if you don't have paid sick days, what happens is either a child stays home alone, or you lose your paycheck, or even your job.

I had a situation where I interviewed a worker, and what were they concerned about? That they-they had to go to work, because they needed the money. So, who was staying home? An older brother. Missing school to take care of a child who was sick. That's crazy. That shouldn't happen in America.

BRANCACCIO: It's a real wakeup call, if you look at a graph of different countries, industrialized countries, richer nations around the world, and how much time they have to give you by federal law for vacation and other issues that come up. What does the graph look like for America?

SHULMAN: We-we're way off the graph.

BRANCACCIO: I mean, I think it's flat right there, right?

SHULMAN: It's totally flat.

BRANCACCIO: Zero.

SHULMAN: Zero. There's no requirement whatsoever of any vacation days. There's no requirement whatsoever on any kind of sick days.

We talk about being a family friendly nation, but we're not giving people time to be with their families. When someone's working two or three jobs, they don't have time to be with their family. If we don't allow people vacation, they don't have time to spend with their family.

BRANCACCIO: Just reading The Economist magazine, and there was an article about Germany. Germany, often criticized by many economists for having the big social welfare system. Look at these crazy pensions they give people. Big social safety net that's not sustainable. They're gonna lose jobs. Yet, currently, German economy is actually doing pretty darn well.

SHULMAN: Absolutely. It's got nothing to do with competitiveness. The most competitive countries actually have a very broad social safety net. They provide healthcare. They provide good retirement. They provide time off and good vacations. We're the ones who haven't caught up with the realities of what Americans need to be productive, and to be good family members, and-and take part in our society in a real way.

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by: jeffweinberg @ Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 15:52:49 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Important point! Paid sick leave may even be more urgent. (4.00 / 3)

I mean, you can have a reasonable discussion about how many holidays are appropriate. But how can there be any arguments against it being unfair and unethical to leave sick people without income, literally adding insult to injury???

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by: Gray @ Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 16:53:36 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Interesting stuff. (0.00 / 0)

I agree with most of it.

What tool would you prefer to use instead of regulation? Also, note that "industry would like to screw us over but can't because of regulations" isn't something that tends to make headlines. How would you know?

And I dunno about people like Summers and Geithner. On the one hand, people on the left regularly like to attack them for being cozy with Wall Street or whatever; on the other hand, I have read from a number of people -- many of them themselves economists, some of whom do actually get a lot of respect on the left -- that they really are amazingly brilliant. And I mean, "brilliant" and "progressive" are admittedly more or less orthogonal. But isn't the former also important? (just as / more so / not as much?) Isn't it possible that the more "progressive" policy -- where "progressive" is defined as what groups and individuals who identify themselves as progressive support -- is sometimes actually the worse policy?

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by: illissius @ Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 15:25:48 PM CDT

I could not have said it better. (4.00 / 1)

Every Democratic Senator & House member who worked to defeat the public option must be voted out of office. Even if we somehow pull out a public option, something that will only happen if President Obama goes to bat for the public option tonight, these Congress people have demonstrated beyond a doubt who they work for. It is not us, the citizens of the USA. They work for corporate interests and the top 5%, as such they should be opposed at every opportunity. Democratic Party member or not we need Congress people who work in our interest. All of the Republicrats must go.

   

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by: dorf @ Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 15:34:40 PM CDT