Conspiracy of Bogus Process Arguments

by: Chris Bowers

Fri Sep 18, 2009 at 13:00


The primary justification that conservative and moderate Democrats offer for their policies is not the strength of the policy, but rather its electoral and legislative viability. The way that members of the Senate Conservadem group talking about the public option is a good example of this:

  • Joe Lieberman cites the lack of votes as his main reason for opposing a public option:

    And the third, and probably the most important, the votes are not there for a public health plan, government-run option.

  • Kent Conrad refuses to go on the record on a public option, simply declaring the issue "moot":

    Pressed, Conrad's spokesman said the senator doesn't have an opinion on the public option, because he believes the issue is "moot."

  • Max Baucus:

    "The public option cannot pass the Senate," Baucus said.

  • Bill Nelson:

    "You can't get 60 votes in the Senate," Nelson said of a public option. "I'm trying to get something passed."

  • Mark Pryor:

    "My guess is that there are not votes to do it in the Senate, even a very modest public option like what he's talking about," Pryor said.
Instead of arguing against the public option in policy terms, the Senators instead argue that the public option simply cannot pass. In fact, among these five Senators, only Joe Lieberman has even stated his opposition to a public option--and Lieberman cites the inability of the public option to pass as his "most important" rationale for opposition.

What's worse is that the argument 60 votes are needed for the public option is simply false. Not only have many experts argued that a public option can be included in reconciliation, but any filibuster can be broken with only 51 Senators. Even if there are differing interpretations of reconciliation, the later cannot be disputed--any filibuster can be broken with 51 votes.

This is how conservative Democrats talk to progressive Democrats.  Instead of coming out against progressive policy ideas on their merits, they instead offer up process argument.  Further, as is the case with the arguments above, such process arguments are typically bogus.  They all claim there aren't enough votes for a public option, without citing a list of Senators that makes it impossible, and without addressing either reconciliation or the nuclear option.

The lack of transparency from these Senators, not to mention the degree to which they assume their audiences are too uninformed about Senate rules and public statements on Senate support for the public option to know the difference, is infuriating. It is though they really believe they can trick us into thinking they are on our side, and we are too stupid to know the difference. Oh wait--that is exactly what they think:

Nelson said most of the public option advocates "don't have a clue," about what it would take to create such a plan. "The whole thing is so complicated you can't expect them to understand."

We have to diffuse these process arguments. We need to show that all of these Democrats talking about the need for 60 votes are simply lying. Because of the nuclear option, there is no need for 60 votes on anything--just a desire for 60 votes in order to preserve Senate manners. Countless Democrats and pundits have been spreading this fundamental mistruth about the operation of the Senate, and using it as justification for why the Senate continues to either defeat or water down every aspect of the progressive agenda. They don't go on record against progressive policy, but just claim their hands are tied. That simply isn't true. We need to put an end to this conspiracy of bogus process arguments.  

Chris Bowers :: Conspiracy of Bogus Process Arguments

Tags: , , , , (All Tags)
Print Friendly View Send As Email
Good post (4.00 / 1)
Even though Dashcle, a White House proxy had raised the prospect of reconciliation, it's hard for me to believe that Obama would do it, unless it were absolutely the only way to pass a bill (which it may be.) Knowing what we know about Obama, we also know that he would be loath to use reconciliation, because, let's be honest, it would be more than a violation of "manners"; it would be a political risk, given the way the Village would interpret it, and given the polls showing the opposition to a Democratic-only bill.

In any case, if Dems choose to go it alone, it doesn't matter what the "experts" say about whether the public option could be passed through reconciliation. All that matters is what the  Senate parliamentarian says. It would all come down the opinion of Alan Frumin.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P...



Nonsense (4.00 / 1)
The filibuster is not a normal procedure, pretending that it is a necessary part of running a country is abhorrent! Obama most assuredly will pass the bill. Obama will use the powers entrusted to him by the constitution to serve the people of the United States. He gave an oath to that effect.

Setrving the people, running democracy, protecting the genral welfare, all these are in the constitution. Guess what isnt in the constitution? The filibuster. The filibuster is a rule, rarely used, or should be, and not normal procedure.

Throw it out.

Second :
The Senate Parliamentarian serves at the pleasure of the house, and can be has been replaced for just such interference in the will of the Senate.

--

The government has a defect: it's potentially democratic. Corporations have no defect: they're pure tyrannies. -Chomsky


[ Parent ]
??? (0.00 / 0)
You think Harry Reid is going to go shopping for a parliamentarian who believes that the PO can be reconciled? Dream on.

What part of my comment, exactly, was nonsense?

All in all, your comment was...odd.  



[ Parent ]
YES I belkieve that Obama has done everyhting to ensure that reconciliation (0.00 / 0)
will happen. I am sure that all the necessary planning has been done. Thats why I think your post is wrong. Yes I dont just think, I am more than completely sure that that is exactly what will happen. There will be, if the parliamentarian has any problem at all, he will be replaced. The parliamentarian serves at the pleasure. It is not the supreme court, it is a "nicety" to make parliamentary rules squabbling as quick and easy as possible. The present parliamentarian was a replacement for just such a rule 'difference of opinion" with the majority.

What else is odd? That there is no filibuster in the constitution? That meetings are designed for one purpose only, to get things done, fairly, but get things done? That democracy is more important?

--

The government has a defect: it's potentially democratic. Corporations have no defect: they're pure tyrannies. -Chomsky


[ Parent ]
Odd, among other things, (4.00 / 2)
that you don't believe Obama, who is nothing if not sensitive to elite opinion, isn't loath to pass a bill without any Republican support, given that he's spent months bending over backwards to try to get Republican support. Obama's favorite pundit, David Brooks, says using reconciliation would be political "suicide." Don't get me wrong, I think Dems should do it if need be, but let's not pretend that it wouldn't be a bold move by a president allergic to bold moves.  

[ Parent ]
Obama has been bending over backward indeed, and if even two of them (0.00 / 0)
acted in good faith, he would be acting differently.

That we know, but as the New York Times Editorial Board advises, the time for that crap has passed. as the New York Times Editorial Board is 'no-ones favourite panda's' boss, possibly the entire Versailles elite has signed on, or at least let Obama know, this ploy won't work, pass it with 51% . This bill is going to pass the Senate with 50%+1 votes. Period. That is what is going to happen.

It will pass with 50% plus one. That is more than my prediction, that is my goal. Getting 55 votes would be a shame, as I don't want to give up anything thaose extra 4 votes needed.

--

The government has a defect: it's potentially democratic. Corporations have no defect: they're pure tyrannies. -Chomsky


[ Parent ]
How to get to 60 votes is either through Snowe or the Dem replacing Kennedy (4.00 / 1)
If it's Dukakis that's a 60th vote for cloture and also probably an additional vote for the public option.

But to get Snowe's vote there has to be no public option. And you wanna bet that Barack Obama wants her vote a lot more than he wants Kennedy replacement vote.

And the question is why?

Is it because one Republican gives it the veneer of bipartisanship or because he doesn't care to expend one iota of political energy for the public option?

If we get cloture with Snowe voting for Cloture, then you can bet that even, though there is a real good widely plowed way to get healthcare reform with a public options by
1. Reconciliation or

2. Cloture and voting for the HELP bill over the Baucus bill,

you can bet that the White House will put its muscle behind making Olympia Snowe happy.

I like Olympis Snowe.  In 1993-94 when I lobbied on healthcare she was, even then,  the only Republican who actually cared.  But we can't let this nice lady dictate the future of America or the Democratic party.  The President may indeed let her do that.


"Incrementalism isn't a different path to the same place, it could be a different path to a different place"
Stoller


[ Parent ]
I am a little amazed. There will be no 60 vote Bill. (4.00 / 1)
This is a supposition that is not supported by the facts. There will be a vote, it will be in reconciliation.

And No, Obama is not, will not press for 60.

The point though is not prediction!

It is passing the Bill, the best possible Bill. It will never get 60 and be worth spit. It will pass, it will not pass if its a crappy bill. The only path, and I am going to repeat because I thought this was understood, the only path to a Health Bill is through 51% in the Senate.

If it is crappy enough to get Nelsons vote, it will not pass the house, because it will be killed by the pledge block. This is not a prediction. The only Bill that can pass the house, will not be passed by Lieberman and Nelson etc.

The WH knows this.

They are not trying to pass a 60 vote Senate Bill, and I dont want them to.


--

The government has a defect: it's potentially democratic. Corporations have no defect: they're pure tyrannies. -Chomsky


[ Parent ]
End the sixty vote filibuster - move to a fifty vote filibuster. (4.00 / 1)
As the filibuster is intended to hold up "unacceptable" legislation, these Senators are actually arguing against the use if the filibuster, by citing such paltry reasons to oppose it.

No, their paltry defences of opposing the public option is actually attempting to turn the filibuster rule into Senate Procedure.
This is a huge violation of the spirit of the  Constitution. While the rule for allowing a filibuster was introduced to stop occasional excess, it is and was a rare event. The republicans are attempting to create a new rule, just like ungovernable California is suffering from, to say that laws and rules can't changed any more.

This usurpation of the rights of a Democracy to govern itself WILL NOT STAND!  

Curb and Curtail the filibuster now. Hell through the damn thing out. This is a democracy damn it.

--

The government has a defect: it's potentially democratic. Corporations have no defect: they're pure tyrannies. -Chomsky


pragmatism (4.00 / 6)
Instead of arguing against the public option in policy terms, the Senators instead argue that the public option simply cannot pass.

gosh
sounds a lot like the opposition to Medicare for All.


lol (0.00 / 0)


--

The government has a defect: it's potentially democratic. Corporations have no defect: they're pure tyrannies. -Chomsky


[ Parent ]
Exactly (4.00 / 3)
I was wondering just how soon that would be pointed out. Thanks for saving me the trouble! ;)

[ Parent ]
Its funny and ironic sort of, but its spuroius too (4.00 / 1)
The few who couldn't pass a bill if their hair was on fire, saying some bill doesn't have the votes because they might try and block it, is only the same words, not the same thing, as the majority saying there aren't votes here among us for this thing you want.

--

The government has a defect: it's potentially democratic. Corporations have no defect: they're pure tyrannies. -Chomsky


[ Parent ]
Separate issues (4.00 / 2)
You're right about the process talk.  However, you know perfectly well that ending the filibuster through the "nuclear option" is a huge deal.  I'm in favor of it, and I don't know the potential for getting 51 votes, but you know as well as I that there will be tremendous hesitance at least from even progressive Senators and activists.  Josh Marshall at TPM reiterated his strong opposition not that long ago, and he represents mainstream liberal opinion quite well, I think.

I'm not even suggesting a separate campaign against the filibuster -- tying the "nuclear option" tightly to the necessity of passing real health care reform is our best chance.  But pretending it's just another majority vote is either self-deluding or disingenuous.


Look folks, I thought we understood. (4.00 / 2)
These is no Bill that will be passed with 60 votes. It isnt that a 60 vote bill (baring the bill that comes from before reoncilliation) would be hard to pass. Its that if its so crappy that Nelson can vote for it. It wont pass the House. The pledge block, has vowed in writing that a crappy bill will be fertilizer. It will make bird cage liners. It will pine for the fjords.

There is a path to Health Reform, that nicely, is also the path to pretty good health reform. There is no path to crappy bi partisan health reform. Its like saying the bicycle path to Mars. There isnt one. The WH knows that. The Obama tripos around the US and on TV all weekend, and next week, is to drive the message, we must pass this Bill, we will not wait, this is going to happen hell or high water, 51% or reconciliation, whether the conservatives like it or not.

Chris's post is about fighting the battle that conservatives are trying to put in its path, needing 60 votes, before it happens, developing the spine the argument the coalition, the demand and the popular will to do it this session, with America demanding it.

I guess that's one of the reason people were so mad at Obama, they thought he wasnt doing enough to get the "needed" 60. That isnt what he is doing, he gave up on 60 a while ago. There is no ____ 60 votes. The WH knows that.

--

The government has a defect: it's potentially democratic. Corporations have no defect: they're pure tyrannies. -Chomsky


A Simple Point (4.00 / 5)
If everyone who said "there aren't enough votes" simply said, "there aren't enough votes, but I'll support it anyway," then there would be enough votes.

This is how the passive[-aggressive] crowd shows "leadership", and how the "personal responsibility" crowd avoids personal responsibility.

History will be kind to them: Their insect names will be buried by the sands of time.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


I do truly wish that this was true. (0.00 / 0)
then there would be enough votes.
it's just that that is not a logical construct its a posited possibility. I have seen no whip, list poll or canvas that suggests there are 40, 20, 10 votes for single payer in the Senate, and possibly only a hundred or 80 in the house.

I have no other data. Have you seen other data?

--

The government has a defect: it's potentially democratic. Corporations have no defect: they're pure tyrannies. -Chomsky


[ Parent ]
I Thought We Were Talking Public Option Here (0.00 / 0)
But what do I know? I was only reading the quotes.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
ah (0.00 / 0)


--

The government has a defect: it's potentially democratic. Corporations have no defect: they're pure tyrannies. -Chomsky


[ Parent ]
my prediction... (4.00 / 1)
I'm betting that some kind of bullshit mechanism called the "public option" is going to be invented between now and the time Congress passes a bill.  It won't be the sort of public option envisioned by progressives-- it will be another corporate giveaway labelled as the "public option."

cynicism doesnt take intelligence or effort. (4.00 / 1)
That we might be screwwd over is entirely possible. The potential that the public option pledge block will hold, is greater than the public's option to hold its water; and fight and push and threaten and donate and scold and praise and organize. Until we get what we have pushed for until this point.

Don't let anyone take you out of fighting for this, by trying to destroy the confidence you need to fight.

--

The government has a defect: it's potentially democratic. Corporations have no defect: they're pure tyrannies. -Chomsky


[ Parent ]
How much intelligence and effort does it take (4.00 / 2)
To guilelessly cheerlead for vaguely defined policy objectives? Just wonderin'.

[ Parent ]
This kind loser (0.00 / 0)


--

The government has a defect: it's potentially democratic. Corporations have no defect: they're pure tyrannies. -Chomsky


[ Parent ]
Little pressure (4.00 / 1)
The conservadems in the Senate are mostly not up for election in 2010. Bayh is but he is sitting on $12 million.  Bayh has turned hard right in 2009 with his crucial vote score dropping about 30 points to Baucus territory in the lower 40s.  Wyden is but he's been suckered by his vanity and really is no conservadem.  That leaves the ever worthless Blanche Lincoln and her $3 million.

The bulk of these fools will be screwing things up unchallenged.  As for Bayh and Lincoln, I wouldn't lift a finger ti help either of them.

Wyden, with the smallest bankroll of the three at $2 million +, has left himself in a very dangerous spot.  He needs to climb back from the ledge he's put himself on.


Without good policy, it will be tough to knock on doors and (0.00 / 0)
convince anyone to support my candidate because of the great process that will be pursued.  

"They pour syrup on shit and tell us it's hotcakes." Meteor Blades

See Glengarry Glen Ross (0.00 / 0)
for the great process you must pursue to get their votes.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Wether or not any of us know anything about process (4.00 / 1)
has nothing to do with it (though a lot of us do, and more are learning).  It's not our job to know any of that.  That's why we elect other people.  People who's job it is to know this stuff.  That way, We the People can tell them what we want, and they can do the work of getting it done.  It's their job to figure out how to write and pass the legislation that we want.  It's their job.  It's. Their. Job.

Nelson, Lieberman, et. al. are saying that the job is too hard for them; that they can't do their job.  They're admitting that they're incompetent.  Are you kidding me?!

Seriously.  That's their argument.  It's too hard.  It's too complex.  No human could possibly figure it all out.  The mind simply boggles at the impossibility of it all.  Let's just give up and go home.  Who wants a burger?

Why the hell can't we fire these idiots?

Health insurance is not health care.
If you don't fight, you can't win.
Never give up. Never Surrender.
Watch out for flying kabuki.


The good people of Nebraska (and Florida, too, I guess) (0.00 / 0)
like their Nelsons.

Lieberman, on the other hand, is fireable.  I think the liberal community should start laying the groundwork and raising money to defeat him in 2012.


[ Parent ]
USER MENU

Open Left Campaigns

SEARCH

   

Advanced Search

QUICK HITS
STATE BLOGS
Powered by: SoapBlox