How the Democratic Party Works, and Doesn't Work

by: John Emerson

Sat Sep 19, 2009 at 12:30


(More thoughts from John on the context of struggle within the Democratic Party.  Not a sentimental piece. - promoted by Paul Rosenberg)

(fourth of a series: 1, 2, 3)

Various reasons have been suggested for the peculiar lameness of Obama's approach to health care reform, which perfectly fits a pattern of Democratic lameness going back at least two decades. None of these reasons is entirely wrong, but several are weak and useless ways of understanding of the problem and should just be dropped. I'll begin with the weak ones and move on to the stronger ones, which I'll discuss in more detail later. My overall  conclusion will be, first, that we need to bypass the party organization and change the incentives working on elected Democrats, and second, that Democrats have to get rid of the corporate, anti-popular, expert-administrator model which has made it difficult or impossible for them to enlarge their base.

ONE

The Democrats aren't stupid, progressives are stupid. The Democratic leadership is following a wise strategic plan which will become clear if we're patient and don't fuck things up.

I don't see how anyone older than 25 could believe this one -- the leadership has let us down too many times. They've been keeping their powder dry for so long that most of it is past its expiration date.

TWO

The Democrats aren't stupid, progressives are stupid. The country's more conservative now, and so is the media, and progressives are going to have to get used to that and quit whining.

First, often the polls show wide support for a progressive position which then fails in Congress anyway -- without a fight and without any Democratic leadership support. But more important, the Democrats are  horribly passive in the face of public opinion. Too little energy is spent on developing issues, getting progressive ideas out there, and changing people's minds, and too little energy is spent on recruiting new supporters among non-voters and independents. Instead, everything is dedicated to big media buys every two years - media buys which strengthen the network media, who are among our worst enemies. (By and large, Democratic electoral campaigns leave nothing behind; they're just money down the drain. The party has even devised tricks to systematically divert money legally earmarked for party-building activities into the campaign of the moment.)

THREE

Democrats are stupid.

The word "stupid" should be removed from the Democratic vocabulary. If the Republicans are so stupid, why did they beat us so many times? If we think the voters are stupid and they know that, how can we ever persuade them of anything? And as far as the big-time Democrats go, if a leader's words and actions seem stupid to you, it's probably because their goals are different than yours and they're just stringing you along. (There are a fair number of genuinely stupid people in the business, but they're just stooges.  The real players  -- e.g., Rahm Emmanuel -- are smarter than you and me, but they're not on our side and they aren't going to give us anything.)

FOUR

Democratic leaders are timid and cowardly.

There's some truth in this one, and I'll pick up on it again below: the Democratic Party does not seem to understand bargaining, bluffing, or fighting, and seems addicted to splitting the difference and finding ingenious win-win situations. But the problem is mostly just that the leadership's goals are different than ours, and mostly short-term and small-time. Political pros don't really care much whether they accomplish anything or not by our standards. Taking risks might upset their own little applecarts, so they rarely take any. They'll fight if their own interests are threatened, but they're not going to fight just for us.

FIVE

They're all really just conservatives.

In effect, that's often more or less true, but only because of their limited goals -- if there were an opportunistic advantage in being progressive or radical, they'd all be progressive or radical. It's true, however, that when a Democrat says "the people won't accept that, it's too liberal", what they usually mean is that their donors won't accept it. They don't necessarily know or care what "the people" will or won't accept.

SIX

They're all rich and don't care about ordinary people.

This's true of politicians in general and is a significant factor, but politicians who are not rich when they are elected can be among the worst -- they need the money. But in general by the time someone reaches power, they're far removed from ordinary people, about whom they often have stereotyped and mostly negative ideas.

SEVEN

They've all been bought.

This is pretty much it, and the what I'll say below will mostly just elaborate on that. The enormous amounts of money required to buy media time and pay for campaigns put everyone in Congress at the mercy of the donors and fundraisers, and this also puts most Congressmen, especially the new ones, at the mercy of the party machine. House members in particular are virtual peons until they get some seniority and a solid local power base. (Needless to say, as far as corruption and conservatism go, Republicans are worse than Democrats. But for them, what we call corruption is actually a good thing: privatization).

The best is yet to come:
CONCLUSIONS: WHAT CAN WE DO

John Emerson :: How the Democratic Party Works, and Doesn't Work
So far I've just been clearing away obstacles standing in the way of a realistic understanding of how the politics biz works. I'll give more detailed explanations in later posts, but right now I'll just sketch the basics.

We need to figure out, and change, the incentives working on Democratic politicians. The reason why Democrats so often ignore and betray progressives is that we haven't given them incentives not to.  Money, votes, and publicity are what count, and so far progressives have not leveraged these incentives effectively.

We especially need to look at the incentives working on the national party leaders, and the means they use to control the lesser Democrats.  No one in the national party ever seems to be punished for losing - not Shrum, and not even the mercenary consultants on short-term contracts.

The party leaders have their own goals, with maintaining control of the party at the head of the list, and they don't need to win every election. They don't necessarily want a bunch of unruly new Congressmen, especially not if they threaten to mess up the leadership's corporate strategy. They don't necessarily want new blocks of enthusiastic voters, who might make demands inconveniencing their big donors.

By and large, the Democratic leadership is perfectly happy to use gerrymanding and local deals to cede 40%-45% of the country to the Republicans. This makes the future more predictable and makes the leadership's job easier, and as the safe Congressmen settle into their assigned roles, it makes the party more controllable. The party pros absolutely hated the fifty-state strategy, and Howard Dean was immediately banished when Obama took over.

We also have to look at the way Democrats think. Beyond the fact that the Democratic Party's real goals aren't very progressive, the party often seems inept even at fighting for the things they really care about. Democrats seems to recruit mostly among academics and other organization men from in situations where conflict is discouraged -- people addicted to institutional, administrative ways of thinking, whereby wise and farsighted managers coolly make everything right because they're smarter than everyone else.

Organization men dislike fighting and uncertainty and want to predict in advance how every fight will turn out, and for that reason they often passively accept what they think of as inevitable, rather than acknowledging uncertainty and fighting for the best possible outcome. (And not only are the party operatives wonkish and uncombative this way, a lot of rank and file voters have the passive wonk attitude, so that the Democratic Party can be rolled with astonishing ease.)

And Democrats especially don't seem to understand something that Gingrich and Rove understood very well -- that for a confident, growing party, a defeat this year can be used as a stepping stone toward a victory next year.

For a decade or so the Republicans very successfully dominated Congress with small and sometimes tiny majorities. Furthermore, the "majority of the majority" rule meant that the right wing of the Republican party dominated the rest, and in the end about 30% of the voters ended up controlling Congress and passing a major legislation. By contrast, the Democrats can't even get anything done with 60 Senators and solid control of the House. Democrats really need some leaders who are functional in the worlds of bluffing, bargaining, gambling, and fighting.

For us, the bottom line is that we have a tough row to hoe.  We have to work against the party leadership and against the media to change the incentives for elected officials and party leaders. This can be done only by organized, labor-intensive campaigns involving large numbers of people. But more on that later.

ADDENDA

Yes, Rahm Emmanuel is effective at bluffing, bargaining, gambling, and fighting.
Unfortunately, he consistently fights against progressives rather than against Republicans. Bipartisanship is his baby.

And for the record, as I've said many times before, I'm not advocating a national third party at all. The cards are just too heavily stacked against third parties. We need to work within the party structure but against the leadership and against many of the incumbents.  


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This Is Really Well-Timed (4.00 / 12)
to give some critical structure to understanding the mini-catalog of attacks on the party base chronicled in my first diary today.

It's very clear to me that the only answer is to fight back, which necessarily means defeating some of them at the polls.  But that's just a tactic, really.  The strategy must be to build institutions of power outside the party that they can't touch.

Imagine the 50-state strategy as something funded and run by progressives--by PDA, for example--so that they can't dismantle it.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


This is very good. (4.00 / 1)
Imagine the 50-state strategy as something funded and run by progressives--by PDA, for example--so that they can't dismantle it.


Change
"We must break up the banks and never again let them get so big that they distort our politics and take down the economy.


[ Parent ]
Heh (0.00 / 0)
Yeah, they'll just work tirelessly behind the scenes with their Rethug colleagues to "Acorn" it.

Not that we shouldn't fight for this with everything we've got, I'm just sayin'.


[ Parent ]
Opps - I meant 'ACORN' (0.00 / 0)
And yes, I guess that's officially a verb now, like "swift boat".  

[ Parent ]
"so that they can't dismantle it." should be, if it isnt meant that way, a core principle (4.00 / 1)
The object would be to build an organization, that doesn't require funding, or is generating working funding as an outgrowth of its own working.

the ACRORN, which is an excellent model, is poor and working poor and middle class people organized to do their own work, but relying on funding. How well they recover from being defunded by congress will be instructional.

Change
"We must break up the banks and never again let them get so big that they distort our politics and take down the economy.


[ Parent ]
I understand about the funding (0.00 / 0)
I was simply referring to how the right wing noise machine and corporate media (basically one and the same these days) hysterically demonize any progressive organization or movement. I didn't mean to imply that it their propaganda = "dismantling".

[ Parent ]
We must route our own donations (4.00 / 10)
If you're not a centrist machine Democrat, never give money to any national or state Democratic organization. I really think that this should be an absolute principle. If at some point we're in a position where the Dems need us and come asking, then we can deal. But not while they're treating us with contempt.

We do have this weird situation where the parties are rich, and the single-issue groups are rich, and they work independently. But the groups which want to change the party so that it will do things differently are poor.

I was in a single issue Central American peace group around 1980 which was moderately effective, but to all intents and purposes we were asking the Republicans and many Democrats to abandon one of their central foreign policy commitments. Major issues can't be dealt with that way; they're not details that you're asking to be changed. In order to win a big issue you have to take over the party AND win an election.  


[ Parent ]
In order to win a big issue you have to take over the party AND win an election. (4.00 / 3)
This is just plain the only thing we need to understand.

Political organizations are volunteer based and all positions are open to everyone, until they aren't. Everything needs organizing, from your district Dem party, to you state orgs and the DNC. If you don't organize them, somebody else will. That is just plain the truth of the matter. Not your friends organizing, or "those guys" or leave it to someone else. Its you or nobody. We need people to understand that just finding what needs to be done is FAR FROM enough, what needs to be done is to take responsibility for the governing of the country. Just complaining, or being right and complaining or being right then complaining then giving up is not the way forward. No matter how popular, being angrily disappointed is not more left, being screaaming angry is not more progressive. "Knowing it is all game thats stacked against us" is not political action or progressive or left or helpful or citizenship.

Organizing on the street with people that think like you, organizing in actions, organizing making groups, funding specifically as you say, and not:

If you're not a centrist machine Democrat, never give money to any national or state Democratic organization. I really think that this should be an absolute principle. If at some point we're in a position where the Dems need us and come asking, then we can deal. But not while they're treating us with contempt.

I would alter so that when we run state organizations we drop the don't donate to state level orgs. --"don't donate to orgs that aren't doing what you need them to do"

Change
"We must break up the banks and never again let them get so big that they distort our politics and take down the economy.


[ Parent ]
Funding Model = Unions (4.00 / 1)
Look at how organized labor is funded.  Sure, unions aren't tremendously well-funded compared to say, corporate entities; but unions are pretty well-funded compared to a lot of other organizations.

My union dues are 1.5% of my monthly wages.  Not a big deal in terms of the overall cash.  But my union, of which I'm the (new) president can and does do some great stuff for the workers we represent (and beyond that group too).  

Membership-based organizations of the non-profit variety tend to be funded by a combination of their members, foundations and institutional donors, and major individual donors.  That's sort of how political parties are funded too.  The members become less and less important financially as time goes on.  Especially when there is no inherent connection between the members and their contributions and their involvement in the work of the organization.

And the $25 or $50 check every so often is a tough way for organizations to build mass organizational heft.

Sure, people do the $10 a month thing to political organizations or candidates they dig.  But what if we had an organization to which "we" (broadly speaking) paid dues to as just a regular, ongoing thing.  We can make extra contributions on top of that if we want.  But the baseline is, say, a 1% of your paycheck dues payment every month.  

Not sure where I'm ultimately going with this - and I realize that it's the model for many membership-based party organizations.  I think that the regular dues-paying model creates a more stable funding stream that keeps people bought in (so to speak).


[ Parent ]
Maybe I should have mentioned -- (4.00 / 7)
This is a justification and explanation of things that people like Open Left and Firedoglake have already been doing for at least a year. And it is directed against the cautious wonk demographic that generally gives blind support to the leadership and shuns extra-party activism.

As time goes on I'll say something about the various populist, progressive, and radical parties, factions, non-party movements, and free-lancers which have provided the great bulk of the new ideas and positive energy in American politics during most of American history.

Something important when lost when the progressive electorate started delegating politics to the Democratic Party. To paraphrase an author I cited last week, that if the Democratic is going to work for us, instead of for the party boisses, it's going to have to be worked by us.

The strong party, anti-popular model promoted by Hofstadter, Schlesinger, Bell, Galbaith and other Cold War liberals during the fifties has really wreaked havoc on Democratic progressivism.  


[ Parent ]
Of Course (4.00 / 2)
Hofstadter wasn't really inventing anything new.  He was just developing a much more sophisticated narrative framework for the party regulars to demonize the insurgents with.

And, of course, since it was ostensibly written in response to McCarthyism, it was far more palatable to the very people it directed against.

Neat trick, that.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
McCarthy was censured in 1954 and died in 1957 (4.00 / 1)
The Age of Reform came out in 1955, Anti-intellectualism in 1963, and The Paranoid Style in 1964. Hofstadter's book play the intellectual self-pity card some, but the wonks and technocrats had already won. He was just piling dirt on the grave.

Hofstadter didn't harm McCarthyism by calling him a populist, and he misrepresented Populism. His real targets were surviving progressive factions within the Democrat Party and progressive movements outside the party.

In some of the things said about the Populists, Hofstadter amusingly reveals his own Marxist past. It's true that the Populists didn't have a Marxist class analysis and were somewhat petty bourgeois, but no one but a Marxist would hold that against them. But Cold War liberals shared the vanguard Marxists' contempt for the masses.


[ Parent ]
And This Was Shared With The Neocons (0.00 / 0)
Who also had Trotskyist roots--and, in fact, went through periods of being Cold War liberals before turning into neo-cons.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Yeah (4.00 / 3)
Lasch has written great stuff on "The New York Intellectuals" (their own term for themselves.) One of the most overrated groups ever. Not a single must-read book from the lot of them. All period pieces and occasional literature.

The anti-democratic energy in the US during the 50s was fierce. Not only the Hofstadter crowd, but the Critical Theorists (Adorno et al), the Straussians, and the neoliberals (Hayek, Friedman, etc al) shared a complete contempt for the masses and for democratic politics.

The odd thing for me was that we had several different factions of intellectuals from ruined, murderous  anti-Democratic countries (Austria and Germany) coming over to tell the people of a healthy democracy what to do. And people listened.  


[ Parent ]
Speaking of the grass roots (4.00 / 2)
Surely the 15,000 member, grass roots Physicians for a National Health Program is exactly the kind of organization with "new ideas and positive energy" that should have been "at the table"?

So why weren't they?

How does the pre-capitulation by FDL and OL among others on single payer vs. public option fit in with this story?


I am in earnest -- I will not equivocate -- I will not excuse -- I will not retreat a single inch -- AND I WILL BE HEARD.  


[ Parent ]
Quite True! (4.00 / 2)
We are the worst of the worst!

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Well, what's the answer then? (4.00 / 1)
Either OL and FDL epitomize these new insights -- which, in theory, I find interesting and mostly agree with -- or they don't.

So which is it to be?

I am in earnest -- I will not equivocate -- I will not excuse -- I will not retreat a single inch -- AND I WILL BE HEARD.  


[ Parent ]
The argument can certainly be made..... (4.00 / 2)
.....that we should have started out with single-payer, so that public option couldn't be used as a bargaining chip. ("We" means most left Democrats; I don't speak for OL).

Maybe next time we'll do that. On the other hand, FDL and OL are players now, but they aren't able to decide the agenda yet.

I guess I should say that while wonk "strategic thinking" is stupid and delusory, I'm not willing to rule out any strategic thinking ever.  


[ Parent ]
Oh hell I spoke of notyhing except the single payer from months before (0.00 / 0)
the primaries, spoke about organizing the base around issues to cover our asses and drive reform of not just the party but the country. Thats all I did, "Obama should be our candidate, but that means we have to organize voters around single payer"

When the argument rages that Obama's healthcare plan is this and Clintons that, and both aren't anyway near as good as what we have now, what "Organizing for America" and Deans "Democracy for America" are working for is already a win over what Clinton and Obama ran on in the spring of 2008. It was not a great series of posts. This was not something I was seeing as the drive forward.


Change
"We must break up the banks and never again let them get so big that they distort our politics and take down the economy.


[ Parent ]
So we have to wait for the outside groups to have the power... (4.00 / 2)
... to set the agenda, before they can actually advocate for the best policy?

That seems to me uncomfortably close to the scenario of "give more money to elect more Democrats so they can do the right thing next time" that we're already very familiar with.

But what I'm asking is pretty simple:

If FLD and OL epitomize the "organized, labor-intensive campaign" that you advocate, then how did they come to exclude PNHP from the table?

And from the perspective of the kind of institution building that you advocate, do you think that was right, or wrong?

I am in earnest -- I will not equivocate -- I will not excuse -- I will not retreat a single inch -- AND I WILL BE HEARD.  


[ Parent ]
I don't know (0.00 / 0)
You seem intent on nailing FDL and OL to the wall on the basis of something I don't have full knowledge of. Neither I nor they claim that they're perfect.  

[ Parent ]
When you back up your thesis with examples... (0.00 / 0)
.... I thought I could assume that you've had a working knowledge of their editorial history and practices -- especially when you use them to epitomize the sort of institutions that you wish to build. Apparently not. Let's leave FDL out of the picture, and talk about OL, since you post here. Let's even leave past events out! Going forward:

From the perspective of the kind of institution building that you advocate, do you think single payer advocates like PNHP should be at the table, or not?

NOTE As far as "nailing to the wall," that's called accountability. Do you have a problem with it when it's more than an abstract idea?

I am in earnest -- I will not equivocate -- I will not excuse -- I will not retreat a single inch -- AND I WILL BE HEARD.  


[ Parent ]
I was talking about what I've seen FDL and OL on this issue recently. (0.00 / 0)
Especially compared to the generality of what I've seen happen in my lifetime. I don't feel obligated to know about everything OL has ever done in its history. This is the first time I've seen anyone effectively put pressure on weak Democrats.

Against this, I have allegations from you that something nefarious happened involving the suppression of PNHP. But you really have to make a stronger case and give me a lot more detail.

As far as accountability goes, no one is accountable to you. You seem to want a personal apology or confession or something.  


[ Parent ]
Je repete (0.00 / 0)
Your response ("don't feel obligated to know everything"* and "something happened") is off-point. I specifically left the past out.

So I'll repeat the question I did in fact ask:


From the perspective of the kind of institution building that you advocate, do you think single payer advocates like PNHP should be at the table, or not?

Well? Seems simple enough.

NOTE * Not even, apparently, about the advocacy for Obama's signature domestic initiative in the blogosphere.

I am in earnest -- I will not equivocate -- I will not excuse -- I will not retreat a single inch -- AND I WILL BE HEARD.  


[ Parent ]
The Problem Is Bigger Than Single Payer (4.00 / 9)
and, as John says, FDL & OL are smaller than agenda-setting institutions.

One thing I've repeatedly returned to is writing about hegemony, and the need to build counter-hegemonic infrastructure.  Yet, most of the time when I write about that, I get significantly less comments than when I write about some passing event of the moment.  This is indicative of how hard it is to get folks to focus on the underlying, foundational struggle.

Heck, just look at all that money raised for a social conservative Democratic challenger to Joe Wilson.  A million bucks--and the vast majority, I'm sure, from folks who are significantly more liberal than the candidate they're helping out.

What if that money had gone into challenging one or more vulnerable conservadems instead?

So how do we make that happen?  Not just once, but routinely?

Answer that question, and then your question about single-payer becomes highly relevant.  But until then, it's at least 70% a cart-before-the-horse kind of thing.

Don't get me wrong--I'm glad you're asking the question. Because it helps to draw these deeper issues out into the open in more salient way.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Regarding number of comments (4.00 / 6)
in your "hegemony" posts - to be fair, you are usually so thorough in your assessment of the situation (both historically and where we currently stand), that it seems there's little to add except "Yup", or repeat the same things you've already said about the need for movement building. Anyway, please don't draw too many conclusions about the number of comments relating to the amount of interest/passion. It's much easier to make comments on specific events as opposed to larger, seemingly intractable foundational issues.  

[ Parent ]
Ditto. This is absolutely true. (4.00 / 1)
And second, this is the development of culture. This is how stuff comes into being and is developed. This stuff needs writing. Relating this to the Bourbon Democrats post for example, there was no ideology in the democratic party before, when 1930? 1920? Ideology was essentially shunned, and stunted and avoided. The development of the party after that, from FDR on for example and now, is done right here, like this, with posts like Paul's.

Change
"We must break up the banks and never again let them get so big that they distort our politics and take down the economy.


[ Parent ]
Not quite (0.00 / 0)
Id argue that there was substantial ideology within the Democratic Party between 1796 and say 1836.  Some of it was incredibly conflicting but it was there.

The ideology centered on the white yeoman farmer as the keystone of the country, salt of the earth, etc.  The problem is that a plantation owner like Jefferson, Madison, Monroe, Jackson was not a yeoman farmer.

Expansion was pushed vigorously.  Not only did you have the Louisiana purchase but the addition of Florida and the whole thing wrapped up in manifest destiny style with Polk's extravaganza: the annexation of greater Texas, the Mexican American War, the deal with England that brought in the Pacific Northwest.  Democrats in the first half of the 1800s literally shaped this country.

Jefferson even believed in public education, the establishment of military academies but no large standing military (an educated and trtained civillian military).

Jackson, otoh, was the most conflicting of the lot.  Lots of "populist stuff" paired with slavery, economic know-nothing ism, and policies that may have benefited the upper class.    


[ Parent ]
Well obviously the people who acted had reasons to act (4.00 / 1)
and the expansion through warfare on, and occupation of, numerous  significantly under defended territories, had an underlying, if only infrequently or duplicitously expressed, philosophy. But greed and covetousness are not a political analysis or philosophy. Nor is discussion about tactics, nor excuses nor jingoism.

Actual Party principles, analysis and goals of service, for example as expressed in Lincoln's Gettysburg speech, are not found. The development of multiple election principles, "More honour'd in the breach than the observance" to be sure, were not present until the approximate time period described.

The exchange of one set of business interests, for another set of business interests, the pitting of importers against manufacturers, the mercantile bankers allying with agricultural producers and the like is not the development of political philosophy. Even we accept and accede to the point that lobbying, bribery and power blocks still control much and often all of certainly the implementation, and very often the development of party policies.

Change
"We must break up the banks and never again let them get so big that they distort our politics and take down the economy.


[ Parent ]
Yes. (4.00 / 2)
Those are the ones where we just sit at your feet and listen.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
Well, Emerson has a thesis on the table (4.00 / 1)
Let me restate at least a piece of it:

We have to work against the party leadership and against the media to change the incentives for elected officials and party leaders. This can be done only by organized, labor-intensive campaigns involving large numbers of people. But more on that later.

And here are the two example -- the only two examples, I might add:

This is a justification and explanation of things that people like Open Left and Firedoglake have already been doing for at least a year. And it is directed against the cautious wonk demographic that generally gives blind support to the leadership and shuns extra-party activism.

So, if FDL and OL are exemplary here, how did they come to pre-capitulate on single payer, and how did they not include genuine grass roots organizations like PNHP?

To amplify,  Paul, my point is not pro-con single payer, my point is the institutional implications of how the "public option" (or "plan") played out and is playing out over the past year or so.

How do you ignore an organized, labor intenive campaign like PNHP?  

I am in earnest -- I will not equivocate -- I will not excuse -- I will not retreat a single inch -- AND I WILL BE HEARD.  


[ Parent ]
Seriously, did OL ban PNHP and purge its supporters? (4.00 / 2)
This strikes me as a learning-curve question. Three years ago Kos was supporting Blue Dogs. They learned. Maybe OL and FDL flubbed the single-payer question. Maybe they failed to notice or were less than friendly to PNHP. If so, they shouldn't do that next time.

My experience for well over a decade was that the progressive tendencies in the Democratic Party were completely marginalized and reduced to grumbling, whining, and protest votes. That's changed, but building a movement is in its early stages.  


[ Parent ]
"They shouldn't do that next time." (0.00 / 0)
Er, you have read Alice in Wonderland, right?

"Jam yesterday, jam tomorrow, but never jam today"....

Can you not imagine one single concrete thing that could be done now?

It just seems extremely curious. Here we have a 15,000-strong, effective, grass roots organization like PNHP, willing (say) to commit civil disobedience, composed of highly trained and motivated doctors, and "progressives" here can't seem to imagine one single way to involve them -- not even to the extent of front-paging a story about them every so often, let alone interviewing them.

Why do you think that is? How does that impact your thesis?

I mean, I grant that health care reform is merely the administration's signature domestic initiative, so it may not seem all that important...

I am in earnest -- I will not equivocate -- I will not excuse -- I will not retreat a single inch -- AND I WILL BE HEARD.  


[ Parent ]
You act as though OL and FDL are in the drivers' seat (0.00 / 0)
There is a legislative process going on and I don't see single paper becoming the focus this time around.

One thing you could do, or could have done, is write a diary here laying out your argument. From the tone of what's been said so far, there seems to be bad blood between you already, though, so I suppose that wouldn't go anywhere.

Frankly, I spent decades taking idealist positions that never were going to go anywhere. That kind of thing works as long term issue development, if it does work, but it isn't a legislative strategy. To me, public option would be a major step forward in a way that the Baucus-Obama plan absolutely wouldn't be.  


[ Parent ]
Je repete (0.00 / 0)
Though I think you will not answer, I will ask it again:

It just seems extremely curious. Here we have a 15,000-strong, effective, grass roots organization like PNHP, willing (say) to commit civil disobedience, composed of highly trained and motivated doctors, and "progressives" here can't seem to imagine one single way to involve them -- not even to the extent of front-paging a story about them every so often, let alone interviewing them.

Why do you think that is? How does that impact your thesis?

NOTE Leaving out all the attributions of motive, suggestions for what I might do, etc.


I am in earnest -- I will not equivocate -- I will not excuse -- I will not retreat a single inch -- AND I WILL BE HEARD.  


[ Parent ]
I don't know (4.00 / 1)
And I already gave that answer.

I have the feeling that I've walked into an especially nasty family feud. If I believed you, I'd agree with you, but at this point I don't believe you, and I resent your apparent belief that I should have agreed with you instantly.

I have no desire to communicate with you further. If I end up finding out that you're right on the facts, I'll owe you an apology I suppose, but frankly I've found your manner offensive. You're behaving like a grievance-collector, and I don't care in the slightest whether you want to hear that from me or not. You're a very poor spokesman for PNHP, which as far as I can tell is a great organization worthy of more support.  


[ Parent ]
See My Comment Replying To Your Query Re Imperialist Paterns (4.00 / 1)
For me, the issue here is that folks have deeply different sets of background assumptions that are not fruitfully discussed in this sort of format.  If you read the diary series I reference there, you may have a better idea of where I was coming from.

I'm not looking for agreement so much as understanding, since we can go forward more fruitfully by understanding one another, even if we don't fully agree.  But misunderstanding simply keeps us stuck, arguing over who was right in whose Perky Pat simulation.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Hegemony (4.00 / 2)
One thing I've repeatedly returned to is writing about hegemony, and the need to build counter-hegemonic infrastructure.  Yet, most of the time when I write about that, I get significantly less comments than when I write about some passing event of the moment.  This is indicative of how hard it is to get folks to focus on the underlying, foundational struggle.

I don't comment on those diaries because I feel like I'd just be repeating what you say there.  The foundational struggle is where it's at.  Keep beating the drum.  I'm right there with ya.

[And I'm doing a presentation on Monday for my union's member education program that is heavily infused with content on hegemony and foundational struggles for power.  So it works - keep spreading the gospel here.]


[ Parent ]
Thank you for (0.00 / 0)
pointing out that Joe Wilson is not going to be the sort of candidate we can count on.  Just because Wilson is a loon, doesn't mean our resources could be better spent challenging Blanche Lincoln, heck, maybe even Harry "doormat" Reid.

If Wilson is replaced by Miller, I'm expecting the same votes when it comes to taxation, corporate regulation, and social welfare policies--just delivered more prim and proper.  

That's South Carolina, and Democrats rarely win here because:
(A) The Democratic opponents try to out-conservative their opponents in a lame attempt to win--which obviously dampens (maybe, informally disenfranchises) potentially politically active people of leftist persuasion.
(B) The race-drives-all narrative pervades both political parties.  We cannot acknowledge that economic/social welfare factors help perpetuate racist behavior and drive political attitudes.  Economic elites that prey upon others, after all, comprise a small minority of whites, even if they are exclusively white.  But we never get to that explanation.

Although this debate is larger than health care (though it is probably our flagship issue), we must admit to ourselves that advocating for single-payer from the get-go would've have provided the left an actual bargaining chip, if not an outright single-payer outcome.  

That said, perhaps we need to develop an entire set of policies--a charter of sorts.  A metric for determining candidate/office-holder adherence to our policy positions.  From there, we distribute a letter to all sitting Democratic officeholders stating these positions and the ultimatum that failure to comply with our designated standard of adherence will result in cessation of funding and recruiting a challenger.  For example, if Miller defeats Wilson and falls below a designated compliance level after being informed of our policy expectations, we cease funding and recruit a challenger.  In practice, because funds are finite, we might only cease donations to some candidates while both ceasing donations and recruiting a challenger to other candidates.

This is just a rough outline of some viable strategy I see, but I welcome input.

-10.00E

http://stopmebeforeivoteagain....



[ Parent ]
Essay tip jar.... (4.00 / 1)
I often read things that I truly want to recognize and/or support.  Since I have nothing more to say than "attaboy", I say nothing.   I can't tell you how often I wish a front page article had a tip jar so I could acknowledge my appreciation of the article without commenting.  Not a pass/fail, just an "attaboy".  


They're asking for another four years -- in a just world, they'd get 10 to 20. ~~ Dennis Kucinich  

[ Parent ]
PNHP hard at work - tho' they had grant money for report just released (4.00 / 2)
Remember that Dr Margaret Flowers, of Physicians for a National Health Plan, was one of those arrested after interjecting comments at the Raucous Baucus hearing. She was interviewed on The Ed Show.

The Mad As Hell Doctors Tour promotes single payer. Several PNHP docs in the Chicago area are going to co-sponsor the MAHD Rally on Sept 26 and PDA Dinner and Fundraiser on Sept 25.

Dr. Paul Hochfeld, lead Mad As Hell Doctor, has a Facebook page, but that's only up to 232. Here's a nice summary of the organization of the MAHD Tour from the PNHP website.  


[ Parent ]
Thanks for the links, books alive. (0.00 / 0)
And I can't understand why that work, which is hard, costly, and effective* doesn't get routinely front-paged on the left blogs. Especially given the historic role Emerson hopes they can take on.

NOTE * Since single payer is still alive, despite the best efforts of the administration, the leaders of both parties, the press, the lobbyists, and "progressive" blogs, I have to assume that grassroots pressure is the explanation. "When you've eliminated all the other explanations...."

I am in earnest -- I will not equivocate -- I will not excuse -- I will not retreat a single inch -- AND I WILL BE HEARD.  


[ Parent ]
possible partial answer why? (4.00 / 1)
maybe church of the savvy?

i have no idea where all the anti-populism comes from. but whatever the answer(s) are, i do think an understanding and counter approach is absolutely required. unless supporting political blogs is going to be as useless as supporting the dem party leadership.

john emerson makes excellent points. i hope he will extend his analysis to our own institution building (via blogs and other) otherwise we run a very real risk of recapitulating the failures of the dem party (ie anti-populist and not enough "developing issues, getting progressive ideas out there, and changing people's minds")


[ Parent ]
Follow the link given by selise (to FDL) (0.00 / 0)
After browsing a bit, I came upon this Crooks and Liars story on the Leahy/Conyers plans to introduce anti-trust legislation to break up the insurance industries. Let's see if this can't make some headway to dilute or defeat Obama's poor choices with PhRMA, etc.

In the matter of doctors for reform, there's yet another group numbering 16,000 for single payer. A member calls in to speak to Ed Schultz's radio show, but I haven't yet looked in the archives to find her name and the group's name. I don't believe she's come on the tube. I'll look for the info if you'd like it.


[ Parent ]
Here's a former Republican supporter of single payer (0.00 / 0)
Even google hasn't unearthed the name of the group I'm looking for, but take a look at this doc's photo!

[ Parent ]
this is an excellent piece (4.00 / 2)
and it's very convincing. It's particularly a problem in New Jersey where a strong Democrat party tolerates corruption and opposes reform, even when an independent would-be reformer-type like Corzine gets in.  Even if the much-hoped-for realignment really has come, and brings Democrats to power for a generation nationally, we'd still have this problem.



New Jersey politics at Blue Jersey.


Actually (4.00 / 1)
The problem you point to is why I fear that what we're living through may be much more like the realignment of 1896 than that of 1932.  The party bosses mostly avoided any loss of ultimate power in 1896.  And the progressive reformers who gained the momentum lost by the populists were much more restrained, technocratic and bipartisan in their approach. Hence, they were much less threatening to the powers that be, and often even served their interests.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
And this is why Dean was such a threat, (4.00 / 7)
I think, and why the Party insiders led the charge to take down his candidacy in 2004.  Dean had, and has, his flaws, to be sure; but, he represented a much greater threat to be transformational than Obama.  

Thus, upon removing him as head of the DNC, the new Admin offered him the neutered position of Surgeon General, rather than HHS.


[ Parent ]
Imagine a Dean Victory (0.00 / 0)
I've been thinking lately what it might have been like had Dean actually pulled it out and won in 2004.  I mean what good did Kerry do the party or progressives then or now?  

This country is desperate for some people who can think and work outside the old conventional boxes.  


[ Parent ]
or imagine if dean was (0.00 / 0)
given a powerful role in the obama administration, imagine that, along with kucinich, and elliot spitzer, that is the type of change i want

whatever you think people owe you, that is what you owe people

[ Parent ]
Circumstances will affect that (4.00 / 1)
Starting in 1896 the economy improved somewhat and stayed improved for a couple of decades. But it started slipping in some of the western states during WWI, and by 1932 was in disaster mode.

What I fear is that when the economy crunch gets serious, the Republicans will capitalize more effectively than the Democrats. They're too bought off and too averse to "us against them" populism. We've had three crashes in twenty years and the Republicans are deeply implicated, but the Democrats (with individual exceptions) have hardly peeped.  


[ Parent ]
Agreed (4.00 / 3)
Obama's capitulation to Wall Street is by itself one of the greatest political blunders in the history of the party, maybe not at the level of Johnson going all-in on the Vietnam War, but getting damn close to that territory.  It took some time for the political cost of that to become clear, too.

And that's even without saying anything about his whiffing on the stimulus fight, or this ongoing health care fiasco.  They all weaken the Democrats significantly in the long run.  But none of the leadership thinks more long-term than the next election cycle, at best.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Stop Blaming Bush (4.00 / 3)
Seems to me that a lot of Democrats, national elected right down to rank-and-file voters, are still content to blame Bush for the problems we have right now, explicitly or implicitly both.

I've started using a phrase with people to open up a larger conversation:

Stop blaming Bush and start blaming Reagan.

We have a crisis in this country that, for convenient narrative purposes, began with Reagan's legitimization and hegemonization of right-wing ideas.  Our problems are the result of a longer-term, larger, more systemic set of ideological and consequent political & policy failures.  

We need some Democrats (actually, lots) to start thinking and acting on a larger scale and tackling the problems out of the context of the next election cycle or worse (but more realistically), the next news cycle.


[ Parent ]
Agreed. (4.00 / 2)
Bush would've been laughed out of town had it not been for Reagan.  I was four years old when he left office, but I have read enough to know that:

(1) The icon of conservatism is Ronald Reagan, or at least one of Reagan's idols--Goldwater.  But Reagan is invoked by current Republican candidates, while Goldwater and Rand are idolized by conservative thinkers.

(2)  The DLC came to fruition and (some might argue) neutered the Democratic Party of class-based and anti-corporate hegemony rhetoric.  Obama rarely invoked either, and only minimally after the bankers wanted bailouts and Chris Matthews was crying over his stock portfolio.

As much as party elites are wedded to "strategy," theirs is insanely myopic.

-10.00E

http://stopmebeforeivoteagain....



[ Parent ]
I want to address one of these points (4.00 / 8)

First, often the polls show wide support for a progressive position which then fails in Congress anyway -- without a fight and without any Democratic leadership support. But more important, the Democrats are  horribly passive in the face of public opinion.

I don't think the problem is passivity, I think we just aren't very good at arguing.  The NYT yesterday said that 45,000 will die prematurely from lack of access to health care.  I can think of no more important point to make in the health care fight.

In fact, not to highlight that fact is political malpractice.

This was not mentioned on the front page of DKOS, and it didn't make the front page here.  

Instead we get endless posts about Joe Wilson, and posts about the public option. We are engaged in making inside the beltway policy arguments, instead of arguments that people can relate to personally.  

If the right wing had as good an argument, they would be all over it.  Because it is an argument that matters.

Any litigator worth their salt knows that the key to winning a case is to tell a story.  This is how people understand things.

In general liberals, and a large part of the progressive blogsphere are largely incapable of understanding this.

To some extent (I have always thought the problem with the Democratic Party was socialogical) this is because the people who run the Democratic Party are Ivy League rich kids who come across as condescending and pompus. I have seen this attitude here.

And on that point, I think we largely agree.  


Good Point (4.00 / 5)
When Obama started the health reform process, along with it should have come a barrage of stories and data about the problems with the present system. But that didn't happen. First of all, it wasn't compatible with Obama's plan to write the bill by a long, slow, back room process.

And second, it violates the Democratic squeamishness about majoritarian politics and direct appeals to the voters (which wonk Democrats regard as near-fascist demagoguery.)

It isn't literally true, but for me Richard Hofstadter is the founder of the modern Democratic Party. And I vividly remember something he wrote in the late fifties expressing adoration for the cool, intellectual two-time loser Adlai Stevenson, and embarrassment about the vulgar populist demagogue winner Harry Truman. That mood is really pervasive in the party, and pretty much with anyone who's had a taste of political science or American history in school.

For example, we've been flooded with stories about hypothetical rationing under some future plan or (often-imaginary) rationing in contemporary welfare states. Every story could have been matched by an equally grisly story from the present American system. But the propaganda push didn't happen, and while to some extent the media must be blamed, Obama and Emmanuel didn't try very hard.  


[ Parent ]
I would not exempt (4.00 / 3)
blogsphere from this.  It's not just the Democrats: the blogsphere has been terrible at making the arguments that matter.  That is where you and I differ a little: I think this isn't just a problem for elected Democrats.  Its runs across the entire left half of this country.

It simply boggles the mind that the study showing 45K dead hasn't been the lead story all across blogsphere.  It is as bad a case of political malpractice as I have ever seen.

You point about Hofstadter is extremely well taken.  One of the reason liberals/progressives lose arguments is because they are to some degree alienated from the rest of the country.  


[ Parent ]
That gets into the cultural liberal / economic liberal fight (4.00 / 2)
That's a real third rail, because a lot of cultural liberals are economically centrist or worse, and a lot of economic liberals are culturally conservative. Attempts to raise this issue often lead to real nastiness.

I see this as the contemporary equivalent of the sectional and ethnic politics of 1890 or so. The parties played Northern Protestants against Catholics and Southern Protestants, and by keeping these fights going the two parties were able to maintain a united front on the big economic issues.  


[ Parent ]
I grew up in Vermont (4.00 / 4)
as it transitioned from a solid Red State to a solid Blue State.  The primary reasons for the transition were around foriegn policy and cultural issues.

To go to a Democratic, or to a Progressive function in Vermont was to see nothing but foriegn cars.  As the grandson of a UAW shop steward, I would point this out to people, and get blank stares. In fact, I would often be accused of being xenophobic.

This divide, perfectly captured in What's the Matter with Kansas, is the achillies heel of the Democratic Coalition, and why I have regarded predictions of Democratic Re-alignment with caution.  It is why on fights focused on economics, part of the coalition sits on their hands.  



[ Parent ]
Symptom And Cause (0.00 / 0)
The blogosphere grew up in response to BushCo's hijacking of 9/11.  The dominant logic of that time was nowhere near as broadly or deeply conceived as the issues and the situation we now face.

This is not to excuse the blogosphere, but merely to point out how the situation came to be.  It's taken quite some time for people to realize the extreme disconnect between themselves and the generic Democrats they supported in order to stop the immediate and profound insanity of the Bush regime.

While I completely share your sense of frustration with this situation, I think that it's not as easy for the blogosphere to transform itself as any of us would like, and that's what we're really talking about here.

The lack of response to the Harvard study is more an indicator of multiple factors than it is a stand-alone event to be looked at in isolation.  It's the underlying factors that need to be worked on, and that's not an easy job by any stretch of the imagination.

p.s.  Watch closely, Squirrel!

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I would have diaried on it (0.00 / 0)
Friday but didn't have the time.

But I do think it is a good example of an amazing inability in blogsphere to find relevent narriatives


[ Parent ]
find a narative between 9/11 and the 45 k (0.00 / 0)
that die from health problems a year, we spent and spend whatever it takes to fight the terrorists of the world who killed 3000, with that, money is not an option, yet we are losing 45, 000 a year to health problems, 15 times more than 9/11,and everyone is concerned how we pay for it,

the health care issue is more of a national security issue than
al quada, this is the narrative i would play with

whatever you think people owe you, that is what you owe people


[ Parent ]
"... more an indicator of multiple factors..." (4.00 / 1)
I doubt it. Or the same mysterious multiple factors were also in place to black out any coverage when Pelosi gave Weiner a floor vote on single payer.

I respect your analytical abilities, Paul, but could wish they were more evenly applied.  

I am in earnest -- I will not equivocate -- I will not excuse -- I will not retreat a single inch -- AND I WILL BE HEARD.  


[ Parent ]
The blackout of single payer news... (4.00 / 1)
... is routine on the "progressive" blogs, unfortunately -- the 45,000 study was done at Harvard, but it done at the behest of single payer advocates PNHP (and the Times, amazingly enough, covered it). When Pelosi granted Weiner a floor vote on single payer, that wasn't covered either.

So, quelle surprise...  

I am in earnest -- I will not equivocate -- I will not excuse -- I will not retreat a single inch -- AND I WILL BE HEARD.  


[ Parent ]
Frankly, I don't believe you (4.00 / 3)
If I believed you I'd agree with you.

I've said and I've heard others say that we made a mistake starting off with public option instead of single payer. Weiner and Howard Dean both said that on TV, but I've heard it elsewhere.

So, live and learn. But you seem to be claiming something deliberate.  


[ Parent ]
John, you keep saying you don't believe Lambert (4.00 / 2)
What, specifically, is he claiming that you find not credible?

[ Parent ]
He claims that the left blogosphere has deliberately repressed advocacy of single-payer.... (0.00 / 0)
.... and has deliberately ignored PNHP. He also wants me to accept his judgment of the situation, and wants me either to prove that he is wrong or else to agree that he is right, and that OL and FDL are culpable in this respect.

There's no way I could make up my mind on something like that in one afternoon, and he offered no evidence or argument. I don't even know exactly what is that he claims was done.

I am willing to consider the possibility that FDL and OL, along with many others, made a bad choice when they chose to advocate for public option rather than single payer, but to me this would be on the learning curve in the normal range of judgment calls, whereas Lambert seemed to be demanding that I denounce OL here and now.

This dispute apparently has a lot of backstory that I don't know about and I don't like being dragged into it.
 


[ Parent ]
Seems to me that Lambert has (4.00 / 1)
Bent over backwards to eliminate any backstory complications, but you seem intent on burdening his questions with some baggage that excuses you from answering them.

Looks to me that you see this as a tribal assault on the good folks at OL and FDL and have taken the classic dodge of disqualifying the asker of the inconvenient question. You don't just claim ignorance of the backstory (which, again, he carefully focused his question to eliminate as a relevant factor), you tell him he's untrustworthy and never to be listened to. It's a neat trick, and it shows that our New Progressive Alternative Media is coming along quite nicely as the heir-apparent to the MSM.  


[ Parent ]
lamberts attempt to creat a demand for reform that could not pass was rejected (0.00 / 0)
and is still rejected.
That's not censorship. Discussions took place, with moral high grerounds attemprting to be taken by people who be willing to "take away the steering wheel" in one citable exchange using the car crash metaphore of politcal gamesmanship. A political trifle, a tactical effort, that if not originating from, then at least certainly encouraged by the people who love to see any reform effort fail.

Loosing that argument can allow one to try and be victim, to claim a moral advantage of censorship, but being wrong, or losing a debate doesn't do that.

If last fall anyone besides Kucinich had said this is the time to drive for single payer, besides me for example, who indicated then, or even now that the time had come for that reform, then this would be a real argument.

I am completely opposed to "utopia or nothing" bullshit. I am sick of "they are all traitors but me" arguments.


Change
"We must break up the banks and never again let them get so big that they distort our politics and take down the economy.


[ Parent ]
Not quite "deliberately" (0.00 / 0)
I didn't read lambert's comments that way, John. You don't have to read "deliberate" (or some other "nefarious" meaning) into his comments. There are lots of ways one could explain how the progressive blogs did not cover single payer or PNHP-maybe some "herd mentality" or they've simply "loyally" adopted prevailing Democratic line. You actually don't have to posit any underlying explanation, really; lambert specifically asked you to leave out attributions of motive.

I think his question is a valid one: if, for whatever reason, these blogs did not cover single payer/PNHP, how does that affect your thesis? A "learning curve" might be part of the answer but would you add anything else? (I was curious as to the answer, also. It wasn't just lambert.)

lambert likes to press his case and he was adjusting his question in response to your answers. Even if you felt like you were being "dragged into" some backstory, I think it would have been better at least to just state you didn't want to be involved in that and leave it at that.


[ Parent ]
Lambert was very insistent (0.00 / 0)
This was the first I'd heard about the problem he was talking about. He gave no links and no documentation. He just alleged that the left blogosphere, including OL and FDL, had systematically refused to talk about single payer and had suppressed the work of PNHP. That's a serious charge and I wasn't willing to accept it on as little evidence as he gave.

Since I had said nice things about FDL and OL (in a comment, and not in the main body of my post), Lambert also seemed to feel that I was responsible for knowing about and defending everything OL has ever done. Since I'm a guest poster and relatively new here, I didn't think that was reasonable or fair.  

Lambert's tone was accusatory, and I don't think that was appropriate. He was asking me to take sides on the spot in a fight I didn't know enough about. It reminded me of the old wars between radical sects.  

On the specific issue of whether we should have started out pushing single payer, as I've said, there's a good case to be made. It doesn't strike me as a good idea to start talking about single payer at this point, with the battle lines drawn as they are.

Lambert likes to press his case

Yeah, he seemed to be looking for the gotcha, and I didn't like that. He talked about accountability, as though he were some sort of arbiter everyone had to answer to rather than just one person among many. He was insistent on getting an answer out of me, but didn't bother to give me any evidence. And neither have you two.

I think that there might be a legitimate point in what lambert said, but I was personally offended by the way he presented it, and I think it's more than just a personal reaction.  


[ Parent ]
I just went through Lambert's comments again (4.00 / 1)
He was very insistent from the beginning on putting me on the spot and getting an answer out of me, and he wanted me either to defend FDL/OL or to admit that they were wrong. I explained several times why I was not willing to do that, but he kept coming back at me. The question he raised is interesting and important, which I admitted from the beginning. But we were never arguing about that. It was all about him trying to squeeze a concession out of me.  

[ Parent ]
Lambert's sin (4.00 / 1)
Is asking for a "concession" that is well-deserved.

To make that concession is to acknowledge that the progressive elite (A-list blogs, MoveOn, Howard Dean,  et al.) screwed the pooch by biting their tongues when single payer -- the plan which many of them "concede" would be the most effective -- was taken off the table at the outset of Obama's "open and transparent process" that "considered all options," beginning with Daschle's house parties.

Instead they rallied around the wafty "public option" plan. How many of these elites deigned to push back when Obama belittled "little single-payer advocates" as "liberal bleeding hearts," and as bold progressive activists braved arrest to bring single-payer into Max Baucus's oh-so-open-and-transparent hearings? The topic is how to support legitimate progressive reform, isn't it?

You don't ask Lambert to stand and deliver some sort of documentation relevant to his question. You disqualify him from further discussion. This is not the sign of someone confident that he's got a winning argument.

He's got a legitimate issue quite germane to your topic, but you choose to treat him as a troll. It's good to be posting at an elite
blog. It means that no one who anyone listens to will bust you. Just like writing for, say, the Washington Post. Meet the new media, same as the old.
 


[ Parent ]
Oh for Christ's sake (0.00 / 0)
Several times Lambert asked me to answer a leading question I didn't have enough information to answer,-- a question requiring me either to defend FDL/OL (and the whole rest of the left blogosphere) or to admit that they were all wrong. I politely refused to answer the first few times and explained why, but finally he wore me down.

My original topic was very broad, so Lambert's question fit somewhere within it, but I didn't feel like narrowing the thread town to meet Lambert's specifications.

This is not the sign of someone confident that he's got a winning argument.

You've figured it out! I DON'T have a winning argument! I've said several times by now that I don't know enough about this issue to discuss it. I have never said that I disagree with Lambert. I just got pissed off at his prosecutorial attitude.


[ Parent ]
This is obviously getting a little too meta (0.00 / 0)
To figure out what level of response makes sense. But Lambert was raising an important issue that didn't warrant you dismissing him in that manner -- whether the OLs and FDLs, who claim to want to build and support progressive infrastructure, ought to reach out to very real progressive activists (promoting an agenda which the likes of Chris Bowers agree would be the best approach).  To date, they simply haven't been given much support at all from those with the big megaphones. It's a real problem, and an ideal laboratory case for your theories, even if the backstory is unfamiliar to you at the moment. By blowing Lambert out of the water, you're saying "la la la la I can't hear you," rather than showing any curiosity or concern about it.

[ Parent ]
Oh for Christ's sake (0.00 / 0)
Several times Lambert asked me to answer a leading question I didn't have enough information to answer,-- a question requiring me either to defend FDL/OL (and the whole rest of the left blogosphere) or to admit that they were all wrong. I politely refused to answer the first few times and explained why, but finally he wore me down.

My original topic was very broad, so Lambert's question fit somewhere within it, but I didn't feel like narrowing the thread town to meet Lambert's specifications.

This is not the sign of someone confident that he's got a winning argument.

You've figured it out! I DON'T have a winning argument! I've said several times by now that I don't know enough about this issue to discuss it. I have never said that I disagree with Lambert. I just got pissed off at his prosecutorial attitude.


[ Parent ]
Theatrum Politicum (0.00 / 0)
Washington DC is very insular, and so it is that the media, insurance companies, News Corp, and oil interests have decided that they have a ready-made audience for their theatre of 'rebellion': if you think about it, the tea parties and the 9/12 marchers are aimed directly at congressional representatives.They aren't trying to influence, nor have they even remotely succeeded at influencing large-scale public opinion on any important issue, from Sotomayor to health care reform.

There is a BIG problem if congressmen and women believe in these theatrics over real statistics, as the NYT data on the deaths due to lack of coverage, the actual RISE in pro health reform polls, and so forth.

If these sleazebags can with a few paid actors and a lot of TV clowns succeed in actually altering congressional votes, then they have spent their money well.

Aren't there any Democrats with clever staffers who can see through these charades?


I retain my party membership (4.00 / 2)
but only to vote for progressives in the primaries. If I get a conservadem in the general, I will vote third party.  IF the conservadems don't win they won't be run as candidates.

I retain my party membership (4.00 / 1)
To run for party office (chair of the party for my congressional district), to be a somewhat respected figure inside party circles (and have some influence for progressives), and to impact Democrats around me.

Being a party member is part of my own inside-outside game.  I highly recommend it - especially if you take party membership as the first step.


[ Parent ]
I retain mine (0.00 / 0)
to REPRESENT. For example, yesterday there was a local festival and the County Party always has an information booth at these things.

But who were the only volunteers who signed up for yesterday? Me and two of my bleeding heart DFH friends. So for the entire afternoon, we were the Party in the eyes of all the people who stopped by to talk with us, in a small town in a red red state.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
Chicken or the Egg (0.00 / 0)
Does the party define the leaders or do the leaders define the party?

I believe that it is the nature of the party coalitions that produce the effects and leaders we see.

The Republican party coalition is a union. Multiple power and belief centers who care about some things and really don't about others. Thus they find it easy to pay homage to other centers because it really doesn't matter much as long as it doesn't impinge on their sphere. It encourages them to conflate one power center with the other (evangelical capitalism?). But, it leads to calcified positions and the chance one power center bringing down all the others.

The Democratic party coalition is made up of intersections. Power and belief centers that overlap and are opposed at any one time. It forces compromises that leave all centers less then happy. It encourages horsetrading and messy debates that are endlessly repeated as new internals are constantly built as each issue and issue aspect comes to the fore.  


Ha! (0.00 / 0)
I don't see how anyone older than 25 could believe this one

I dont' see how anyone over 25 can be giving advice on how to be a successful progressive.


[Redacted] (4.00 / 4)
[Redacted]

"Don't trust anyone over thirty" was stupid thirty years ago, and it's stupid today.  


[ Parent ]
Not To Mention (0.00 / 0)
it was one sign at one demonstration that struck a nerve with an over-30 Versailles reporter.

It's not like it was a movement slogan or anything.  Heck, I once wrote a post about the over-30 movement heroes.  No one with a lick of sense would have gone around saying that.

In fact, the only contemporary pop culture commentary on that point was sardonically at odds with the Versailles narrative:



"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
. (0.00 / 1)
It isn't your age that's the problem, it's your nonexistent movement and it's utter lack of accomplishment. I'm supposed to listen to a bunch of guys that got steamrolled by a hollywood actor with Alzheimers?

[ Parent ]
You Really Have NO Clue About The Nature of Historical Forces (4.00 / 2)
You should read Wealth and Democracy on the patterns of world power imperial crisis.  Spain, Holland, and England all went through this before us.  The empire suffers a stunning reversal at the peak of its power, and the result is a couple of generations of reactionary politics.  It's something very deeply wired into the nature of empires and how they grow and decline.

I would never claim that anything is completely determined by macro-historical forces.  But if you don't know the difference between a walk on the beach and climbing Mt. Everest, you can't even begin to pretend to say anything meaningful about caloric intake.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
That's interesting (0.00 / 0)
Have you posted on that?

The setback was Vietnam, right?

I am in earnest -- I will not equivocate -- I will not excuse -- I will not retreat a single inch -- AND I WILL BE HEARD.  


[ Parent ]
Yes, It Was Vietnam (4.00 / 3)
I've posted about it a number of times.  The best integrated into a larger framework was in the series "Three Waves And A Wall: 2008 And The American Future".  The three waves:

Toynbee's spirit is one I share, and in this diary set I want to examine the coinciding impact of two waves that are part of longterm cycles, as well as a third one indicative of global transformation that's been under way for several decades now  These three waves all converge on this November's election, and in doing so, they confront a wall-the intensely fortified network of rightwing organizations and their "moderate" and "centrist" enablers that have maintained a recklessly destructive regime in power, despite its fundamental attacks on principles dating back at least as far as 1215 (habeas corpus, from the Magna Charta).

In ascending order of scope, there three waves are:

  1. The roughly 32-40 year cycle of American Party Systems, described by political theorists such as V.O. Key and Walter Dean Burnham.

  2. The rise and fall of successive world powers-Spain, Holland, Britain, and now us-described by former GOP uber-guru Kevin Phillips in Wealth and Democracy: A Political History of the American Rich.

  3. The recent wave of "post-materialist" values surveyed on a worldwide basis over the past several decades by the World Values Survey, and described most fully in the work of social scientist Ronald Inglehart.

Part 2 is where I focus on the imperialist wave.

BTW, perhaps the best way to explain the difference between how you see single-payer and how I do is that I see it as part of this larger whole, the struggle to break through the wall.  I didn't expect it to be accomplished in the first go-round, simply because the opposing forces were too strong.  But I did expect that efforts made to weaken those forces in other areas would make it easier to complete the job sooner, rather than later.  [Don't forget, most of FDR's good stuff came in his third year.]

As things have unfolded, the Obama Administration has turned out to be more ideologically rigid, and significantly less pragmatic than I expected them to be, but that doesn't necessarily change my thinking about the logic I was pursuing.  It just alters the difficulty level--as it does for your more narrowly focused approach, too, I might add.

p.s.  I use Shystee's Overton Window graphic and link back to his post in Part 4 of the series.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Various (4.00 / 1)
A few responses:

First, I don't have the expectation that it will, but if we acted only on the basis what what we expected, then lots of good things would never happen. For example, I never imagined it would even come to a floor vote. I see that as a good thing. Plus, the surrounding walls always look completely solid, until somebody pokes a pencil through them and it turns out they're canvas from a stage set.

Second, as far as the Obama administration, my expectations in general are on the record (December 2007) and I think I called my shot. My expectations for Obama on health care were zero, because I was paying attention in September-October during TARP, instead of doing the primariez. I don't think that anyone who models the administration as rewarding rent-seeking behavior by financial institutions will go far wrong; that's why the guaranteed market for the insurance companies through; it's a bailout.

Third, I'm not sure that I agree with the Overton Window entirely. It seems to me that what we have is not a D vs R line, but a frame. It seems to me that the Ds and the Rs reinforce each other, even in their supposed conflict -- and if the Ds can't deliver for their supposed constituencies on basic, basic material stuff like health care and housing and not being treated as an extractive resource for the banksters, then they should go the way of the Whigs, and the sooner the better.

I am in earnest -- I will not equivocate -- I will not excuse -- I will not retreat a single inch -- AND I WILL BE HEARD.  


[ Parent ]
Typo (0.00 / 0)
It's late. I meant to write "not a line, but a plane" (and not "frame").

I am in earnest -- I will not equivocate -- I will not excuse -- I will not retreat a single inch -- AND I WILL BE HEARD.  

[ Parent ]
i am a newb (0.00 / 0)
but it seems the forces are so powerful that it would be hard enough to fight them for this one round, yet even hard to give this another crack in a few years, i think i read mike lux where he said this healthcare reform better be meaningful or democratic voters will see right threw it, and be very mad,

i dont think the public sees this as the first stage of change, and that more meaningful legislation can and will be added in the future, this is being sold as a way to fix the system, if it doesnt, i think it will be easy for the right, next time the debate comes around, all they have to say is hey, the dems said they would fix it last time but its still broken, why trust them again,  

whatever you think people owe you, that is what you owe people


[ Parent ]
No you are not expected to listen -- (4.00 / 2)
Please dont listen, put your headphones on, turn off the lights.

lol

This ladies and gentle is known as a troll. This is what they look like. They are not often found wandering as they normally get hidden by rating.

Change
"We must break up the banks and never again let them get so big that they distort our politics and take down the economy.


[ Parent ]
Put up or shut up (4.00 / 3)
If you can do better, show us.

Right here, right now you're just noise, and I'm sure the feeling is mutual.  


[ Parent ]
Labor Party (4.00 / 1)
We got steamrolled by Reagan when we forgot we were the labor party and stopped fighting for labor.  The working class stopped trusting Democrats and they have no reason to trust us now.  

The young college kids today make the same mistake.  If we can't articulate a simple message that can be sold in small swing state towns and working class suburbs, we're never going to have the breadth of support to sustain a movement.  


[ Parent ]
Reagan Capped It (4.00 / 2)
"We" stopped being a party of working people long before Reagan.  I would argue that the Democratic party never actually mostly - much less fully - acted as a labor party.  Certainly nothing to the degree of the labor and social democratic parties of Western Europe.  But that's not news here.

By abandoning any historical trajectory toward being the party of social and economic justice and instead taking up the mantle of being not-the-right-wing-captured-Republicans, we gave up a claim on being the party of working people.

The construct of the message is not the problem.  The content of the message is the problem.  Which is probably what I think you are stating: we need to be an unabashed party of, by, and for working people and represent the broad panoply of mutually-reinforcing and cross-compatible interests.  

This requires a more far-reaching, bigger-picture vision and articulation of that vision.  


[ Parent ]
Interesting (0.00 / 0)
Part of this is shaped by the nature of the country.  Up until the late 1800s, it was pretty much impossible to think of "worker" first.  This was a country of farmers first.  That continued to hold the imagination of people for a good hundred years after the fact.  The exaggerated status of ther farmer (thought of as a "family farmer") in generous ag bills steals from the old reality.  Bryan's Cross of Gold speech lauds the farmer and the rural and depicts the worker as secondary.

Even Truman talks about the farmer and the worker.  I think FDR had a different priority.  Yes, there was a farm program, but the major work and certainly the major intellectual work centered around workers.

What that gives you, at most is maybe 5 years of worker-centered politics in the history of the country.  And unions went up to something like 35% of the workforce overnight.  Imagine what 30 years would have done.


[ Parent ]
For the record (0.00 / 0)
In 1894 the AFL elected a Populist president, John McBride. This was the anti-political Gompers' only defeat. The Populists also had close relations with the Knights of Labor.

The Populist Party died before it even got going. Fusion with the Democrats killed it, because the Southern Populists were bitter enemies of the Democrats (to the point of frequent violence) and the fusion was strictly on Democratic terms. The Populists also were starved for cash and never were able to do all of the things they hoped to do.

But the Populists were not a pure agrarian party at all. Their relative lack of success with labor and in the East was circumstantial.  


[ Parent ]
hey open left, (0.00 / 0)
i have a question, who has more power to influence policy the democratic party leadership or the white house, say obama picked an all progressive cabinet, would we see all progressive legislation or would we see democratic leadership legislation??

whatever you think people owe you, that is what you owe people

"Third Way" (4.00 / 1)
I think I get a bit of what you're getting at here.  But let me ask the question in a different way:

If the political context were more conducive to a progressive agenda, would we see more progressive governance?

I think that the answer is an unqualified yes.

This centers upon something on which Paul has written at length here on OL (and for that I am grateful).  It's the hegemony of ideas and the structure of political power.

More (quantity) progressive Cabinet and Sub-Cabinet appointees from the President follows from having a President who is more progressive at his/her core.  More (quality) progressive Congressional leadership follows from the same.  

The ability to enact a progressive agenda is less about specific people than it is the political context in which particular people operate.  Obama is no progressive, so ipso facto, he did not appoint more progressive people.  The Congressional leadership - and much of the Democratic caucus at that - are no progressives, so ipso facto, they do not push more progressive legislation.  

The path to elected office today for Democrats hinges upon non- or even anti-progressivism.  That is because the institutional vehicles for political ascendancy are not built and/or filled with progressives or progressive ideas.  As that is changed, so too will the opportunities to see more progressive leadership from our Democrats, and thus will follow a better enactment of a progressive agenda.


[ Parent ]
Nope, the path belongs to the people who organize to make a path. (0.00 / 0)
The people who have power in the democratic party are there because they took the responsibility to do that organizing..

If you dont organize a democratic organization, then someone else will.

"Lazy people criticize" is only a painful exaggeration, not a lie.

Doesnt anyone do self-criticism anymore?

Change
"We must break up the banks and never again let them get so big that they distort our politics and take down the economy.


[ Parent ]
but house of progress (0.00 / 0)
 how does your comment relate to something i read on here recently, how howard dean, the man who organized the 50 state strategy was kicked out of his job bc those running the democratic party dont want everyone involved,

and Peter,
I think many more are progressive than they let on, everyone who ever runs for office seems to talk about change and an end to the old corrupt ways, and fighting for the little guy, all progressive ideas, and why whould corporate run news and talk radio need so much spin if their corporate run, trickle down philosophy was so popular?

whatever you think people owe you, that is what you owe people


[ Parent ]
Parties: Using V.O. Key As a Framework (4.00 / 2)
Seems to me that this weekend's analysis of Democratic "Party" (I use the scare quotes for a reason, to which I'll get to momentarily) is missing something of what I would estimate to be the critical framework of analysis.  

In his seminal works on parties, forming something of a point of departure for many of the 'good' (at least in my evaluation) political scientists - and many of the bad - V.O. Key spoke of three modes of parties.  These three include the party in government, the party is the electorate, and party as organization.  Bearing in mind that these three modes are neither perfectly encapsulating nor mutually exclusive of one another at any time or all times, they are worth exploring in the context of fixing this whole party thing with which we find ourselves stuck.  

[I should also note that the evolution of modern and then contemporary politics in the party arena seems to leave this construct of three modes wanting.  More on that in a bit too.]

Simply put, the three modes work out as such:

- The party in government (PIG as I've abbreviated it, somewhat humorously to me, although mostly just to shorten things) is the aggregation of the elected officials of a given party.  This can include different 'wings' of the party, such as Congressional, Presidential, etc - although my own estimation is that only the legislative branches (i.e. Congressional, state legislative) form distinct categories.  This should be written, when referring to Democrats, as "Democratic party," with a lower-case "p," for reasons to which I'll return shortly.

- The party as organization (PAO again in abbreviation) is the formal organization of the party.  It is the chartered entity at a given level, and their appendages.  For example, the Democratic National Committee is the formal organization of Democrats at the national level; the DCCC and the DSCC are the formal organizations manifest of the PiG Congressional wing(s).  At the state level, in some ways part of the DNC, in other ways not, you have your various Democratic Party of [fill in the state] and in many states, official legislative campaign committees, analgous to the national level.  This should be written as "Democratic Party," because one is referring to a particular, specific organization.

- The party in the electorate (PIE) is the broad constellation of people who are the party's voters.  This is nothing formal - except where a state requires party voter registration.  Then, it starts to bleed into the PAO - and this also begs the earlier problem of the three categories not sufficiently capturing the full dynamic of contemporary party politics; most importantly, captured interest groups (e.g. unions, pro-choice groups, and to a lesser extent, environmental groups, for the Democrats and business groups, pietistic church groups for the Republicans) do not fit neatly into the PIE or PAO conceptualization, perhaps even forming a fourth mode.  Anyhow, the PIE should be written as "Democratic party."

This conception is still a construct of the mid-20th century, and doesn't account for all things contemporary, including and I think especially the problem I noted with captured interest groups.  But it is a very useful rubric, I believe, for analysis in the context of moving toward a Democratic party/Party that serves as a useful vehicle for the progressive agenda.

I'm a stickler for the capitalization of the "p" in party because it is more than just a grammatical action - it's an indicator of that of which one is speaking.  When one refers to the PIE or the PIG, those are very different things - and require more specificity.  When one refers to the "Democratic Party" and does not mean the formal party organization (again, I stress "formal," chartered, and official on this), it leaves the analysis lacking, usually in the critical rigor needed to find the pathways to viable change of the party as a political vehicle.  

The interaction between these three (four?) party modalities, the space between...that's where we can work.  

I probably need to leave it at that for the night.  I'm not sure I've laid things out well enough for the next steps in analysis to emerge a fortiori.  I will say this: progressives need not ditch the Democratic party/Party or see it as wholly exogenous to achieving our aims; instead, parties are always able to be taken-over (I hesitated to write what might seem more grammatically and stylistically proper as "overtaken," hopefully for obvious reasons) and co-opted (I'm not using the term pejoratively, but instead as a value neutral term).  

I will add one more thing, which I think is useful for exploring in the future: the severing of the PIG from both the PIE and, more importantly, PAO, has been the great difference in actually enacting a progressive agenda - and building a more durable, broad party majority.  The PIE is almost wholly unconnected from the PAO, except where the latter proves useful to the former.  But the PIE and PAO provide opportunities for which and venues in which to re-connect with the PIG.  We need to build institutional power in the PIE and PAO to do so, and that is really the challenge in front of us.


Movement, Common Ground, Third Party, Progressive Alliance, et al (0.00 / 0)

We progressives are a large and complex community. We comprise of an array of wide interests, opinions, ideals, hopes, and visions. We are far too independent to be organized under a single banner, and turn on a dime and walk away in the face of "irresolvable" conflict, as well as having the stay power of pursuing justice for years, year after year.

To summarize our views for the future, as expressed in Open Left, and so many other progressive gathering places, we clearly see that we encompass the spectrum, from highly optimistic to outright despondent about the future of progressives. While we also have a wide variety of what we believe should be done to turn the tides in our favor, which more often then not has been what kept us dispersed, we, more importantly, do have in common our interest in getting progressive laws passed, and repealing oppressive laws.

With this single objective as common ground, we have a rallying banner. We also know that to achieve that objective, we must acquire a strong control of congressional seats, in Federal and State legislatures. To do that, we must have huge political muscle.
How do we acquire political muscle? The strength is in the numbers. But how can we do that, when we don't even count ourselves? We have a certainty or at least a vague sense that we are a large majority of the population, but our power is not consistent with our numbers.

The opposition has the advantage of their easy of organization, because they are driven by key words and buttons, and can be brought into line with the ease Sauron stamped out Orks.

We, progressive, delight in our independence, are driven by ideology and passion, and tend to resist joining any flags or groups whose ideology isn't exactly like our own. Nevertheless, at this junction in history, it must be emphasized that although we have a wide diversity of opinions and ideas at the micro level, we must act in unison at the macro level, and support the Alliance's agenda when voting and being called to action on an issue, to compete successfully against the Orks.

The time to win is here. The time to change ourselves is now. We MUST organize.

Without detailing out a structure, we know we must organize. When we assess the present situation, some of us may have enough confidence in what's going on as to believe that little or no action is needed, because things will be fine. At the end of that spectrum are those who believe we must take drastic action and do it now. Under these circumstances the most logical strategy is to have a multiple-prong attack. From the traditional letter-writing, and calling, and other influence pressure of legislators, and by lots of press on issues, through more active participation in controlling existing parties, or creating another party.  

Much has been said and done here in Open Left covering the spectrum of possibilities, except one: A New Political Party, or like semblance of one (save as an unworkable idea). We've been told that all the cards are stacked against such proposition, but we must review the concept on the basis of our common perception that we in fact represent a real majority.

If not a third party on an immediate basis, at least a National Progressive Alliance. People can register as members, and numbers can begin to be counted. As we move forward on this, with numbers, we can flex our muscle in the primaries of other parties. We can publish our support for existing Progressive Democrats or Republicans, and also push to have our own candidate in either ticket that is more progressive than another they are considering.
I would venture to assert that Obama's supporters are predominantly progressives. To get them to recognize this, we present our Progressive Platform, and what our objectives are for any number of issues. As publish this broadly and encourage people to join the alliance.
As the Alliance matures, the feasibility of becoming a 3rd party can be assessed, and strategically launched at the right time.

The Alliance is composed of hundred of groups with their specific agendas and issues, all of which would be embraced as the Alliance's issues, and strategies worked out with our allies as to effectiveness of actions and priorities.

From within the hundreds of groups, we automatically have local spokesmen for the Alliance, in the person of leaders of Allied groups, who will speak for their own group as well as the Alliance.

Many of us would like to be more active on many issues, but our time is limited. Through the Alliance we would be able to support lesser known groups. We would have an Alliance clearing house for issues, and for discussions on priorities, and methods of cooperation. The possibilities through cooperation and networking are mind-boggling.

Funding: The idea of some kind of membership fees or contributions is the obvious initial step, and it would be expanded in time.

So I am proposing to this community the creation of such alliance, and a fairly immediate composition of an interim governing body or board to get the ball rolling.

Can I get some seconding of this motion?  

A National Progressive Alliance, the viable solution.
http://www.openleft.com/diary/...


I agree with Paul's formulation of mutually supporting progressives (4.00 / 1)
organizing not within, but through, the democratic party. The fuzzy, power at all costs, middle of the road careerists who run the party are there because they organized their way to the top. They dont fund us, they don't send checks in the mail to progressive orgs, so they can win elections.

So in response Paul says 'don't send them money either.' The only thing to deliver to the democratic party is votes. Or, and here is where the power is, not deliver votes. This is exactly what the progressive caucus, the pledge block has done. This is soemthing that must be encouraged and developed.

Stalin, who's surprised by this reference, asked "how many tank divisions does the Pope have." If you want respect from whoever is running, or sits in the offices that run, the Democratic or Republican or Freedom Socialist Peace Refoundationary Parties, you had better be able to deliver voters.

If you can't deliver voters, if voters organized together cannot deliver themselves, than why do you expect to be taken seriously, even if your issue is moral, correct or will "lead to disaster if not followed" if you have not, in a democracy, done enough, if any democratic work.

If there is an emerging progressive majority, and I am more than comvincved there is, then our job of organizing a large portion of the electorate on the issues that have become more than popular, more than asked for. They are being demanded by a larger and larger portion of the electorate. Its time to get to work, its time to say these are our voters, its time this is OUR responsibility. Criticizing others, who organized voters for their purposes, is not as effective as organizing them ourselves.

Criticizing people who have done the work necessary, and done it successfully, are not in the habit of listening to people who have not. Because they want to get shit done. As evidenced by the fact that they are getting shit done.

Change
"We must break up the banks and never again let them get so big that they distort our politics and take down the economy.


[ Parent ]
Dems do have positive concerns (0.00 / 0)
Centric tending Dems have one major concern: jobs. They fear that any refom moves will lead to job losses that they cannot tolerate in their home districts.

Take the solidly Dem northeast. Its major industries are:

1. Health care (insurers, pharmas, biotech, hospitals, etc.). The economic base of the northeast.

2. Education. Automatic Dem votes. Do not have to be won over.

3. Financial services. Republican higher ups, with many false liberals in places such as Goldman Sachs. But many Dem workers. Industry seen as one of the big innovators along with tech.

4. Technology (other than bio tech).

5. Defense.

The fear of real reform in health care is that the public option will lead to lay-offs at the private insurers and pharmas. Of course this is just one of the points the industry lobbyists whisper in Dem ears. Money counts too, and the votes of the employees who see pols as favorable or unfavorable to their industry.

The fear of real reform in financial services is that reining in bubble production will lead to lay-offs. Of course this is just one of the points the industry lobbyists whisper in Dem ears. Money counts too, and the voes of the employees who see pols as favorable or unfavorable to their industry.

Defense - obvious.

Tech - not yet over obsessed with DC.

Education - public universities losing support, tuitions skyrocketing. Public school systems not performing. Paralysis. Automatic Dem votes.


I'm not buying it. (4.00 / 1)
They oversaw the worst de-industrialization in history, and never made a peep about it. In many cases they enabled it.

They care about "jobs" only for the elite, their donor class. That means insurance, military contractors, Wall Street and extraction industries (and I include Big Ag as an extraction industry). Their concern is to keep taxpayers' money flowing to their clients.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
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