Three Types of Crazy

by: Paul Rosenberg

Sun Sep 27, 2009 at 07:30


As discussed in my diary yesterday, "Two Types Of Crazy", on Wednesday, Chris wrote a diary, "Conspiracy Theories", picking up on a PPP poll:

According to PPP, 35% of the country thinks either that President Obama was not born in America (23%), and / or that George W. Bush had something to do with the 9/11 attacks (14%).  My favorite line in their press release is "a very troubled 2% of the population buys into both of those conspiracy theories." Ha!

On the bipartisan front, 25% of Democrats think that Bush was involved in the 9/11 attacks, while 42% of Republicans think that Obama was not born in the United States.

The idea that the left and the right are both inhabited by a "fringe" is a favority mainsteam trope, which PPP plays off of, though it does note that, "It's hard to call a third of the country a fringe." Nonetheless, the "fringe" characterization is a long-standing one, and it's always a handy way to avoid discussing the substance of any sort of criticism from the left.  One simply equates the criticism with crazy ranting from the right, and then smiles a knowing "we're all above such foolishness" smile.

But who's to say that the "center", such as it is, is not similarly beset with ludicrous counter-factual beliefs, even though they may not take the same conspiricist forms?  In fact, there is substantial evidence that this is the case, and the centrist counterfactual beliefs are far more injurious to the health and welfare of the republic than either the Birthers or the 9/11 Truthers.  Here a sampling of such centrist myths, which, to my knowledge, no one has ever thought to poll.

    (A) We can provide universal health care, like all other advanced industrial nations, and cut costs to 12% of GDP or less, like all other advanced industrial nations, while still allowing insurance companies to skim 30% off the top.

    (B) We can militarily subdue Afghanistan with enough troops and machismo, even though no one in history has ever done this before.

    (C) We can successfully deal with global warming without even trying to reduce atmospheric carbon to 350 ppm, which is what the world's scientists say is required.

    (D) We can fix the financial system without actually fixing the financial system, simply by trusting the folks who helped bring us the meltdown in the first place.

    (E) Money is speech.

    (F) Corporations are people, with all the Constitutional rights that entails.

    (G) Spending hundreds of billions of dollars on weapon systems that don't work, and/or aren't designed to fight enemies that actual exist means you are "strong on defense," even if you did everything human possible to avoid serving in a war zone when your country called. Questioning the wisdom of doing so makes you "weak on defense", even if you are a war hero.

There are literally dozens and dozen of such crazy beliefs that enjoy strong "centrist" support, at least in Versailles, if not always in America. But does anyone ever thing of them as evidence of some sort of dysfunction?  Yet, that surely is precisely what it is--evidence of a deeply dysfunctional political system.

Paul Rosenberg :: Three Types of Crazy
The Question of Conspiracism

Which brings us back to the issue of the conspiracist form of the questions that PPP asked about.  In PPP's blog post that Chris pointed to, they went on to note:

When more than a third of the population either thinks that the current President doesn't legitimately hold the office or that a former President was attacking the country from within for political gain it shows a pretty remarkable lack of trust in our leaders.

But isn't that distrust very well earned?  Consider:

  • We have suffered nearly 40 years of wage stagnation.

  • This is the first generation of Americans coming into its own that will be worse off economically than its parents--and will not live as long, either.

  • We face catastrophic problems with our financial system, our wider economic system, and our health "system", as well as the prospect of global catastrophe, due to global warming.

Indeed, when was the last time that our political elites actually helped us to solve a major social, economic, or political problem?

One might count Clinton and the Congress eliminating the deficit in the late 1990s, except for the fact that Bush and almost exactly the same Congress immediately recreated the deficit within a year of taking over from Clinton. Some would like to count "winning" the Cold War--but there's no real evidence we actually won it: the Soviets merely lost it first.

Political elites have done very well for themselves over the past 40 years, but America as a whole has not.  So, broad distrust of our political leaders has been very well earned, indeed.

Conspiracism is a complex phenomena, but in addition to the key characteristics described in the Political Research Associates report, "Toxic to Democracy: Conspiracy Theories, Demonization, & Scapegoating", two additional things can be said about it: First, it bespeaks a distrust of political motives by perceived elites (whether they are real or not), and a corresponding sense of helplessness by those who identify themselves with "the people."  Second, it is intellectually simplistic, explaining adverse circumstances in terms of simplistic evil-doing by a small cabal.  Conspiracist beliefs tend to flourish where sophisticated criticism fails, for whatever reason.

As a result of these central facts, elites may well distrust one another, and engage in conspiracist fantasies about one another--particularly elites that represent different nations, religions or ethnicities.  Elites may even fantasize the very existence of so-called "shadow elites" when mass phenomena seems baffling to them--such was the genesis of most modern conspiracism not directly related to anti-Semitism, in the form of conspiracist explanations for the French Revolution, centered on the defunct Bavarian Illuminati, and various other groups, such as the Freemasons and the Rosecrucians.

The genesis of rightwing conspiracism is fairly straightforward.  Conservatism in general is inherently incapable of complex critical discourse--for one thing, conservatives routinely distrust critical reason, as it leads to questioning authoritites--and thus the progression from perceived threat to conspiracist discourse is generally a rather swift one. But leftwing conspiracism does not naturally arise where there is a strong progressive/critical tradition in place, and thus leftwing conspiracism tends to flourish in part as a result of successful rightwing repression.

In contrast, what we see with political elites today can be conceived in terms of Kevin Philips' observations (in Wealth and Democracy) about the rise of reactionary politics in the aftermath of unexpected imperial defeat at the peak of imperial power.  As Philips describes it, prior to this defeat (for us, Vietnam) the economic system worked for the betterment of all, but afterwards its benefits only extended to a relatively small elite.  This has clearly been the case for America since the 1970s.

So long as the masses are effectively excluded from shaping political discourse, elites may develop models of economic policy, as well as a wide range of other models and narratives, which don't actually get the job done, but also never have to face sustained criticism from those whom they fail.  This is the situation that gives rise to the elite, centrist lies listed toward the beginning of this post.  It is as isolated from sound fact-checking as any conspiracy nut you might care to point out.

And it is definitely a fringe position.


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Well said. (4.00 / 3)
By the way, are physicists conducting polls on the existence of the graviton?

Or is that not how truth is ascertained?

Western Civilization became rational first, democratic only later as a result.


In the sciences, peer-review is the "poll" (4.00 / 3)
But the value of having system and process integrated into the mechanism of scientific investigation that focuses on experimental inquiry under controlled conditions, gives every scientist hope that the truth will survive the machinations of other human beings that simply don't want to hear.


"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
Physicists and conspiracies (0.00 / 0)
You got a point there - so I'll stretch it a bit. Yes, physicists are conspiratorial by nature - as evidenced by reliance on a hypothsis to guide their work. presumably what makes their undertaking excusable is that [ideally] the hypothsis is discarded when it leads to results that conflict with experiment and/or known facts. Alas, were that it were so simple!

because, like all humans physicists too are ideologues who are perfectly capable of holding on to a hypothesis long after it is shown fruitless and/or DOA. That's how it went with the ther and that's how it might go with the graviton or the higgs boson or - check it out! - string theory - which has so far yielded not one bit of new insight, experiment or evidence. But its does yield a plethora of papers and PHD theses. In other words - like all good conspiracy theories (string theory being one of what "reality" may be made of), it generates employment and social/professional networking opportunities for its adherents.

Si I guess I have to dispute your asserion of civilization having become rational first. But it sure prefers to think of itself as such.


[ Parent ]
Stilll, There Is SOME Difference Between String Theory (0.00 / 0)
and "string 'em high" theory.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
And then there's elite deception (4.00 / 5)
One of the reasons why Americans are politically more paranoid than most other developed nations (which I'll conceded, at least for the sake of argument) is that nobody agree about whether America is or should be a democracy or not.

There was a strong anti-democratic streak among the founding fathers, and a lot of our institutions are designed to limit democracy. In one sense the direction of movement has been toward democracy -- universal suffrage, one man one vote -- but all along there have been anti-democratic movements at the elite level.

So now, in addition to the constitutional limitations on direct democracy, we also have the limitations resulting from congressional procedural rules, and the limitations resulting from the two-party dominance of politics.

Within the Democratic Party, one kind of liberal (represented by Hofstadter, and before him Walter Lippmann) has always been hostile to the least trace of direct democracy. The Straussian teachers of the neocons were anti-democratic in principle and basically advocated deception, and Mirowski's "Road From Mount Pelerin" shows that the neo-liberals (Chicago School free market economists in the U.S.; not like American political liberals) were quite willing to use deception and repression to get what they wanted. In political science departments, finally, the politics of elections and the politics of governance are regarded as two disconnected tasks: you tell the people what they want to hear, and then when you're elected you do what they want to do.

In short, the elites have a philosophy of deception and secrecy, and paranoids are people who have figured out that much, but who haven't succeeded in figuring out what's really happening behind the curtain.

Whereas the people who rage most fanatically against conspiracy theorists are, as often as not, people who work behind the curtain and don't believe that the lumpen masses have the right to know what's happening, much less help decide what should be done.

Another factor that hasn't been emphasized enough: the Orwellian "We have always been at war with Eastasia." In 1936 the US was strictly neutral, in 1941 the US was at war with fascism in alliance with Communists, and in 1949 the US was at war with Communism in alliance with a lot of slightly rehabbed fascists. Realpolitik is cynical, and holy-war realpolitik is infintely cynical. So some people who signed on to the 1948 holy war had problems dealing with the vestiges of the 1941 holy war.  


anti conspirancy extremists (0.00 / 0)
The "people who work behind the curtin" (at least from personal experience) are not motivated by philosophy. There is always an illegal or at times unethical motive that leads their enrichment, or advancement. The veneer of political belief just hides the unmitigated greed, and extravagant effort to avoid justice or reprisal.

Government by organized money is just as dangerous as government by organized mob..... FDR

[ Parent ]
you tell the people what they want to hear, and then when you're elected you do what YOU want to do. (0.00 / 0)
you tell the people what they want to hear, and then when you're elected you do what YOU want to do.

Destroyed my meaning.  


[ Parent ]
In a nutshell (4.00 / 5)
Yes. If you consider that the two seminal events in recent American history (pre-Viet Nam) were the Depression and the War, it's clear that for the past 50-odd years, the American narrative has been governed more -- much more -- by the latter than the former. It's not the people's narrative, of course, but as long as the bread and circuses continued, they acquiesced in it.

I'm not blaming them, mind you. After surviving both the depression and the war, they had every right to think that a house, a car, a refrigerator, ta elevision and a steady job were both what they'd earned, and what they deserved. Dialectical materialism and the end of history doesn't -- and probably shouldn't -- have much resonance at a backyard barbecue where there's actually enough meat to go around.

Our leaders, on the other hand, should have known better. In fact, the somewhat furtive planning documents from George McKennan to the American Enterprise Institute suggest that they did know better, or at least that they suspected that by accepting War as the central metaphor of the American narrative, they were taking a step which the people couldn't -- and wouldn't -- ratify, unless they were lied to systematically. In any event, that's exactly what they did, and the more their efforts failed, the larger the whoppers their press secretaries were authorized to tell.

We are all now officially crazy, because we all believe things about ourselves which are demonstrably not true. I have the feeling that we're all about to face a Saul-on-the-road-to-Damascus-moment. What happens then? At the moment, we have no way of telling, but I doubt that Dick Cheney or Glenn Beck will be the end of it, nor will Ben Bernanke or General McChrystal.

Anyway, nice job of fitting the teabaggers into the picture, Paul. We should all realize, out of charity if nothing else, that they're all God's -- and America's -- children, just like the rest of us.


more crazy... (4.00 / 3)
this is sorta off your topic (which, btw is an excellent an interesting read), but if you will allow me a temporary aside....

i'm pretty sure this is crazy too:

Indeed, when was the last time that our political elites actually helped us to solve a major social, economic, or political problem?

One might count Clinton and the Congress eliminating the deficit in the late 1990s...

fed budget surpluses and trade policy meant increasing debt in the private sector (households and firms) which added to fragility of our economic system (and don't get me started on the financial deregulation). anyway, i just wanted to make the point that economic policy dependent on increasing private debt is NOT an example of responsible elites.

see for example: http://diglib.lib.utk.edu/utj/...

...the notion that a federal budget surplus is sustainable, and that it promotes economic growth, must be abandoned. Given the realities of the U.S. trade imbalance, public sector surpluses are consistent with economic growth only so long as the private sector's financial situation deteriorates at an accelerating pace.

and if this sounds like more crazy to you, here is some more reading (actually v. interesting for it's own sake):

http://mpra.ub.uni-muenchen.de...

and some commentary on the above link:

http://www.debtdeflation.com/b...
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com...

i have lots more on this, but will stop now.



Quite Right (4.00 / 2)
I meant merely to tip my hat to something people might point to, and then indicate why it wasn't what it seemed.  But there was clearly a lot more that could be said, and you've indicated a good part of it.

It also meant largely abandoning Clinton's original agenda of "putting people first" by investing much more in human development. Clinton continued to talk the talk about this, but it was not really backed up by real spending.

Signing the rightwing "welfare reform" bill, rather than holding out for his original plan--which would have put real resources into aiding the transition to work--was a signature event that typified all that was sacrificed to the false gods of balanced budgets... all so that Georgie Porgie could come along and raid them for his friends.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
A lot conspiracy theories seem to follow a pattern (4.00 / 1)
of analyzing what a given event enabled, and who benefited from it, leading to dismissing salient facts that would otherwise invalidate the theory. I wonder if this form of cause-effect analysis is a modern phenomena, or if people always reasoned this way, but I think it's a type of reasoning shared by both right and left in terms of conspiracy theories.    

Not A New Thing (0.00 / 0)
Fallacious thinking is basically just a result of intellectual haste of laziness.  One takes a valid hueristic--in this case, asking "who benefits?"--get an answer, and chuck the hard work of checking to see what other explanations might exist, who else might benefit, etc.

This can be found everywhere at all times.  But it does not occur with equal frequency everywhere at all times.  Progress is possible, if we work at it.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Justification (4.00 / 2)
A lot of fallacious thinking throughout the ages was justification.  People start with a conclusion (e.g. "slavery is good") and work back through a complicated system to justify a bad result.  Some southerners worked through the Bible using this verse and that verse about the duty of slaves and actually had the nerve to try to lay a guilt trip on the slaves.  That's bad reasoning.

A lot of the crazy stuff works like this.  Government is "bad", let's find "horror stories" or concoct them.  Cheney was guilty of this.  Saddam must have weapons of mass destruction.  I'll keep sending you back for more information till you agree.

This is worse than laziness.  To some extent, it is a belief that "reason" and "truth" don't exist and logic is only a way to browbeat opponents.  I know people who do this and it is not pleasant.


[ Parent ]
True (0.00 / 0)
Intellectual laziness is the background that all are heir to.  Then you have the justifiers taking advantage of that background condition.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Post hoc ergo propter hoc (4.00 / 1)
A lot of 9/11 conspiracies rest on simply looking at who benefited and then assuming they were behind it.  The Bush Administration benefited from the aftermath of 9/11, ergo they planned it (or Let It Happen On Purpose), even though most evidence suggests they fucked up and missed the warning signs, and simply made lemonade out of lemons.  

[ Parent ]
Agreed (0.00 / 0)
It gives them far too much credit for things they could never pull off.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
A conspiracy of mediocracy/mediocrity (0.00 / 0)
Yes, you nailed it. There is a great conspiracy of mediocracy/mediocrity in the US. But I see a northern band of light on the dark, dark North American continent, and it is not Alaska.

This post is excellent (4.00 / 2)
I've condemned each of the things Paul listed as wingnut mainstream notions, though I hadn't thought to call them mainstream examples of fringe conspiracy theories.

I will now.

I add as a contribution toward rejecting the concept of "winning" the Cold War that, beyond whether or not American actions helped bring that about, it doesn't count as victory if you take what should be your peace dividend and reinvest it in a stepped up program of aggression, which America did through neoliberal economic policy and neoconservative foreign policy (flip sides of the same coin).

It's ironic that only after the Cold War was the Communist bloc proved right about the inherent aggression of global capitalism.

(I recently had the displeasure of reading Irving Kristol's end-of-Cold-War declaration that the end of the Cold War had increased America's peril, that the concept of a peace dividend was stupid, and that America needed to become more aggressive, spend more on the military. I know he was an old Trotskyite, but that sounded more like Stalinist class war doctrine than anything else.)

http://attempter.wordpress.com


Although not tinfoil hat guy... (4.00 / 1)
I look at this graphic from Barry Rithholz's Bailout Nation (which if it does not print, is available here):

bailoutnationchart-500

The graphic shows vividly that in just one year, we gave or loaned the banksters more money than the Korean and Vietnam wars, the Space Race, the S&L crisis and the New Deal, etc., over the life of the country (yes, Rithholz used constant dollars).

When the economy has been seized by a small kleptocracy, and the entire country is being looted for their benefit, how does one distinguish analyzing the actions of that relatively small class of people (<0.1% of the population) from CT?

I am in earnest -- I will not equivocate -- I will not excuse -- I will not retreat a single inch -- AND I WILL BE HEARD.  


Facts vs. Theory (0.00 / 0)
I'm pretty sure I used that graphic myself, though I don't have time just now to go looking for the link.  So I've definitely made the argument before about how wrong such policies have been.  And in my diaries this weekend I've made the point that it's not just now that the top 1% has been ridiculously favored over everyone else.

So you ask, "how does one distinguish analyzing the actions of that relatively small class of people (<0.1% of the population) from CT?"  The basic answer is quite simple:

Conspiracism assumes the actions of a small, evil cabal corrupting a pure order.  But noting of the sort happened here.  The actions taken were rationalized and legitimized in terms that are broadly and widely invoked throughout the political system.  Sure, only a handful of people made out like bandits here.  But they didn't do it by sneakily fooling the rest of us.  It's not just a clever con job. It's the hegemony, stupid!

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I know what hegemony is... (0.00 / 0)
But suppose you stretched out the time dimension, and said something like "of a small, evil cabal corrupting a [less im]pure order" over the course of a generation?

Obviously, that doesn't apply to the controlled demolition types. But we're looking at a small and interconnected class of people who funded the rationalization and the legitimization, over the course of many years.

You say it's not a con job. It might be, if you consider the long con. (Gotta run, so no references -- Google is horribly contaminated with Lost episodes and marketing schemes, which makes makes a dark kind of sense.)

Not to defend CT -- just saying that great extremes of wealth achieved over a long time frame in a highly media-conscious culture might bring the ideas/methods of CT and analyzing hegemony closer than you think right now.


I am in earnest -- I will not equivocate -- I will not excuse -- I will not retreat a single inch -- AND I WILL BE HEARD.  


[ Parent ]
So (0.00 / 0)
the fact that elements can be transmutted via radioactive decay brings chemisty and alchemy closer together, too?

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
I cannot but laugh at one bullet point, however (4.00 / 1)
You cite one Centrist myth:

(A) We can provide universal health care, like all other advanced industrial nations, and cut costs to 12% of GDP or less, like all other advanced industrial nations, while still allowing insurance companies to skim 30% off the top.

Unfortunately, those who understand and make that point most forcefully -- the single payer advocates -- have been marginalized not only by the administration, the press, the Democratic leadership, but also by the "progressive" blogs with big megaphones, who seem to have created a centrist myth of their own:


(A) We can provide universal health care, like all other advanced industrial nations, and cut costs, like all other advanced industrial nations, while still allowing insurance companies to skim a bit less than 30% off the top, forcing people to buy insurance, setting up health exchanges, and setting up a new welfare program to subsidize the insurance companies for some purchases in the exchanges.

Too bad there's no evidence that any of that will work, and that there's much evidence it won't. Ponies!!!!

I am in earnest -- I will not equivocate -- I will not excuse -- I will not retreat a single inch -- AND I WILL BE HEARD.  

You'd Have A Lot More Credibility (0.00 / 0)
If you hadn't just discovered health care as an issue in 2008.

Then you might understand the logic and genesis of the public option in Jacob Hacker's effort to craft a vehicle for getting us from here to there.  Of course this effort hasn't turned out as Hacker had hoped.  But it really doesn't help matters for you to be constantly distorting the whole picture of what's going on.  The weakness in advocacy for single payer is a result of the underlying weakness of the progressive movement.

You seem to think it stands on its own, and everyone who doesn't agree with 100% is evil, evil, evil.  But that sort of thinking is just another symptom of the same underlying problem.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
what's the distortion? (0.00 / 0)
i don't see the distortion you write of. hacker's original proposal is not what hcan etc has been advocating and the whole sloganeering of a (tiny, ill defined) public option to "keep the insurance companies honest" is nonsense at best and a damned lie at worse.

The weakness in advocacy for single payer is a result of the underlying weakness of the progressive movement.

i agree with this, but i think what lambert is referring to is the lack of advocacy for single payer by a large segment of progressives. (and really, it's been worse: there's been ignoring, triangulation, censorship, misrepresentation and mocking of those progressives who did continue to advocate for single payer). i understand now that the obama team threatened progressive organizations/media if they advocated for single payer, so maybe that explains some of what has been for me previously inexplicable.

so, what am i missing? if lambert is distorting the whole picture, then i'm massively confused. would very much appreciate knowing your take.

note:  i didn't just discover health care as an issue last year (2002 actually, so maybe that's not much better) -- although i have not been much involved, i do live in MA and reform here has been a big learning experience (players and policy).

......

now i've gone off topic twice in one thread. sorry about that, will try not to make a habit of it.


[ Parent ]
Lambert's Been On A Tear (0.00 / 0)
attacking progressives relentlessly for not being as pure as he.

Reality is more complex.

I see a much broader range of interacting factors.  I don't think one can separate this, for example, from Obama's betrayal on any number of other issues that have some "deeply disappointed" and others still in full denial mode.

Still kicking gays out of the military, for example, while proclaiming himself a "fierce advocate" for gay rights.

I've always felt that more important than any one fight is the need for broad unity across all fights.  

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
unity (0.00 / 0)
i'm not a fan of unity. reminds me too much of bipartisanship where everyone is supposed to get on board by moving rightward or of a requirement to follow orders from above. i favor, and advocate for something more like solidarity - where we acknowledge difference, including different tactics, and so long as no moral line is crossed (fior example, i won't support violence  against people) we support each other and our different  (and hopefully complimentary) work. we don't tell lies about each other, we don't marginalize, we don't triangulate and we use honest argument to persuade while attempting to keep an open mind to other povs. or something like that.

from reading your posts over the years, i can't imagine you advocating for unity as i've described it so i expect you mean something related to how i use the term solidarity?

....

anyway, i disagree that lambert's comment is about purity. he claims there has been a central myth to this year's po advocacy and that people who have continued to advocate for sp have been marginalized. from what i have seen, lambert is right.

more here:
http://www.openleft.com/showCo...
http://www.openleft.com/showCo...

when myths are sold as policy, when allies are marginialized (and worse) i think it is good to voice dissent and to challenge/question these actions. or maybe not good, but silence seems worse.



[ Parent ]
Sure, Solidarity (0.00 / 0)
But no one term is perfect.  Solidarity, for example, doesn't adequately cover the kind of integrated progressive infrastructure we need.

I just think that Lambert would be a whole lot more effective if he didn't spend the vast majority of his time complaining about being marginalized, and instead talked more about strategy and substance. But maybe that is being effective for him.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
More ad hominem (0.00 / 0)
...as an opening.

Do single-payer advocates who have been on the issue for, say, more than 35 years, have any credibility? Like the Physicians for a National Health Program?

Do you really want to compare Hacker's proposal with what Obama, the Dem leadership, Big Pharma and most of the lib-progressive blogosphere are touting as a plan with a "strong public option" (that the for-profiteers describe as "a bonanza")?

Can you refute the alternative myth lambert proposes?

ps: I appreciate your recent posts on economic realities versus Washington-Consensus neoliberal apologists like Krugman.


[ Parent ]
Physicians for a National Health Program (0.00 / 0)
imo pnhp has the most credibility on this issue of any group/organization/members. really wonderful advocacy backed by excellent research.

[ Parent ]
WHat Part Of "this effort hasn't turned out as Hacker had hoped" Don't You Understand? (0.00 / 0)
I'm a single-payer advocate myself.  And no neophyte.  But I believe in a fair presentation of the facts, and Lambert's version of things is quite Procustean in nature.

In fact, what happened here was that Hacker wanted to solve a very real political problem.  That can be seen in miniature in the AFL-CIO's opposition to Wyden's amendment that would allow people to opt out of their existing plans and into the public option.  Of course, that opposition also shows the intractability of the problem.  Hacker's idea was not perfect, but it was a way of reducing political opposition, while creating preconditions that would lead to single-payer.

The main problem was that it assumed a political environment that does not exist--a political environment relatively free of bad faith on the Democratic side, not just among conservadems, but with the likes of Obama, on record saying that a single-payaer system would be ideal, but now fighting tooth and nail to ensure that we will never get the system we need.

And that problem is the problem of movement-building.  Not just a health-care movement, but a much broader progressive movement.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Shoddy points like this are unworthy of you, Paul (0.00 / 0)
1. Gosh, I'm  really sorry I didn't start blogging about single payer in 2003.

2. When we got there, we made up for it. Since you want to make it personal, where was your blog, Paul? Where's your blog's credibility? Where were your blog's daily posts? Where are your blog's interviews with activists? How did your blog help keep single payer alive? Where was your blog when the "terrible mistake" (Howard Dean) to start with public option instead of single payer was made?

3. "You seem to think..." Your projection. Forgive me for not feeling responsible for it.

4. You write:


The weakness in advocacy for single payer is a result of the underlying weakness of the progressive movement.

"You seem to think" that (a) it's not necessary to strengthen the ability to advocate by, like, advocating, and that (b) it's perfectly OK for "progressives" with big megaphones to leave the advocacy to those without megaphones until... Until... Well, see this interesting exchange on reflexivity.

5. Yes, I'm familiar with Hacker's academic work, and it's indeed unfortunate that the "public option" that we have today isn't anything like the Medicare-style, 130-million enrollee plan that Hacker proposed. Fortunately, public option "advocates" have consistently maintained their "credibility" by stressing the differences between that Medicare style plan and what is actually on offer.

Oh, wait...

Anyhow, you might be interested in this post by Kip Sullivan, who outlines the historical parallels between the Hacker FAIL and past Democratic FAILs:


There have been three cycles of health care reform in the last half century - 1970-73, 1992-1994, and 2007 to date. At the dawn of each cycle, single-payer legislation had already been introduced. But early in the cycle, single-payer legislation was "taken off the table" (to quote a statement Sen. Max Baucus now wishes he had never made). Each time the Democratic leadership chose instead market-based proposals that had no track record and no evidence to support them. Each time they favored reform deemed more "politically feasible" than single-payer because it left the insurance industry in place. In all three cycles, the alternative, market-based proposal was promoted by one or two policy entrepreneurs (that is to say, it wasn't an idea that bubbled up from the grassroots).

See the full post for the detail.

No, I don't think that everyone who doesn't agree is evil, evil. For pity's sake. Heck, on finance, I quote from the FT's Willem Buiter all the time, because he's got interesting and challenging views, although he's on the right.

So, in summary: I guess I really hit a nerve. It's comments like this one from you that convince me that I've assessed "progressives" correctly...

NOTE I thought the silence on Susie's interview with Dean was pretty deafening, actually. That as a nice "get" for a C list blog. Maybe "progressives" don't agree with Dean that taking single off the table was a mistake?

I am in earnest -- I will not equivocate -- I will not excuse -- I will not retreat a single inch -- AND I WILL BE HEARD.  


[ Parent ]
I note the lack of ANALYTICAL response (0.00 / 0)
Sorry, readers, I got deked into responding to Paul's shoddy ad hominem attack. Je repete --

This is the "progressive myth":


(A) We can provide universal health care, like all other advanced industrial nations, and cut costs, like all other advanced industrial nations, while still allowing insurance companies to skim a bit less than 30% off the top, forcing people to buy insurance, setting up health exchanges, and setting up a new welfare program to subsidize the insurance companies for some purchases in the exchanges.

Non-diversionary response please, Paul. You might start by explaining how [a|the] [strong|robust]? public [health insurance]? [option|plan] that enrolls only 5% of the population can "keep the insurance companies honest."

I am in earnest -- I will not equivocate -- I will not excuse -- I will not retreat a single inch -- AND I WILL BE HEARD.  

[ Parent ]
What Part Of "this effort hasn't turned out as Hacker had hoped" Don't You Understand? (0.00 / 0)
Seriously, dude.  WHAT PART?

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play? (4.00 / 1)
And, er, should you be rephrasing that at least from:

This effort hasn't turned out as Hacker had hoped

to:

This effort hasn't turned out as progressives had advocated

Just saying.

I am in earnest -- I will not equivocate -- I will not excuse -- I will not retreat a single inch -- AND I WILL BE HEARD.  

[ Parent ]
We could use your wit and honesty. (0.00 / 0)
It's becoming obvious to me that except for Mr. Sirota and those of us who share the same point of view, there really is little else to this web site except to cheerlead compromises that won't achieve anything and stamp down complaints from the left.  That being the case, you're welcome to help promote progressive candidates, causes, and movement-building at my blog (such as it is).



[ Parent ]
Those Crazy Gulf of Tonkin "Conspiracy Theorists" (0.00 / 0)
That's what we were called back then.  But in the end our "paranoid theory" proved right.  Declassified documents ultimately revealed that the alleged attack on US warships by North Vietnam was all just a giant hoax on the part of the Johnson Administration to gain support in Congress and among the American people for launching the Vietnam War full-bore.  At the time all that antiwar activists like myself had to offer was a "theory" that North Vietnam would not have done such an irrational thin-based on our study of Ho Chi Minh and Vietnam from 1918 on.  

The American people are in the same boat today.  With all governments controlling what their "masses" know-and most national media, including our own, essentially performing an Orwellian propaganda role-what chance do any of us have to separate actual fact from government fiction in most situations?

In order for the scientific method to function as it should, every interested person must have unimpeded access to all of the relevant facts.  That's the only way that one theory can be tested empirically against another.  

And yet when it comes to matters of state, unimpeded access to all of the relevant facts is something that all governments make sure that average citizens  lack.

The current "crisis" around Iran's previously undisclosed uranium-refinement facility is a case in point.  Is the Obama Administration being honest with the American people in strongly suggesting that Iran has been hiding an atomic-weapons plant?  Or is this just another Gulf of Tonkin hoax to lead the American people to accept a massive air strike against Iran in early 2010?

I have my own educated guess on the subject-based on hundreds of hours of reading of scholarly writings on the topic.  Yet even with all that research to draw on, my educated guess is still just a guess.

The same may be said of us all.  Unless a new Daniel Ellsberg is willing to step forward and tell us what the CIA really knows, even the most renowned NGO Iranian experts-like Ervand Abrahamian and Trita Parsi-can only give us their highly educated guesses as to what is going on.  And those highly educated guesses may be wrong.

Sure, some conspiracy theories may be more likely than others-because the "good" ones (like the "Tonkin-Gulf-incident-is-a-hoax" theory) take account of  more of the publicly known facts than "bad" ones do (like the old "Ho-Chi-Minh-is-a-madman" one).  But the amount of information that governments make public is still minute.  No matter the nation we are talking about.  If there is one thing all governments can agree upon, it's that their people should be left in the dark.

Thus all of us non-elites are like the inhabitants in Plato's cave-trying to theorize what those shadows on the wall may be telling us about what is really taking place behind our collective backs.  And I think the Iranian people may understand that bitter truth even better than we do.



Major political interests: torture; human rights; stopping war with Iran.


*** crickets *** (0.00 / 0)
Quelle surprise....  

I am in earnest -- I will not equivocate -- I will not excuse -- I will not retreat a single inch -- AND I WILL BE HEARD.  

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